Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/29/20 04:41, Keith Medcalf wrote:


Are you sure that is not related to "residential services" being of a generally lower quality than business services?  It has 
been my experience that shoddy service generates higher need for "support" than does "non-shoddy" service.  In this 
regard, the price for "business" services should be less than "residential service" by a couple of orders of magnitude 
since it costs orders of magnitude more money to "support" shoddy services than non-shoddy services.


Considering that Aaron said 98% of their residential customers are on 
the free plan, and that they use Active-E with every 1Gbps customer 
getting a proper switch port, I'd hazard the bulk of their support 
queries to be non-techie customers needing software support (grandma, et 
al), or fibres being cut.


It wouldn't seem like they'd be getting calls about "speed" issues, 
which are most annoying ones :-).


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/29/20 02:06, Matthew Petach wrote:



Mark,

I think you may have misunderstood Keith's comment about
it being "all a matter of time-frame."

He's right--when the sun consumes all the hydrogen in
the hydrogen-to-helium fusion process and begins to
expand into a red dwarf, that's it; there's no going
backwards, no putting the genie back into the bottle,
no "renewing" the sun.  It's purely a one-way trip.

Now, as far as humans go, we're far more likely to be
extinct due to other reasons before we come anywhere
near to that point.

But as far as the physics goes, the conversion of biomatter
into petrochemicals in the ground is more "renewable" than
the conversion of hydrogen into helium in the sun.

It's just that we're far more likely to hit the near-term
shortage crunch of petrochemicals in the ground than
we are the longer-term exhaustion of hydrogen in the
core of the sun.   ;)


You're right - I misunderstood Keith's comment about that.

I try to keep it real :-).

Mark.

WP: Nashville bombing is a potent reminder that communications systems remain at risk from attack

[Sean Donelan]

A bunch of quotes from former government officials. Not much from 
industry.




https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/nashville-bombing-is-a-potent-reminder-that-communications-systems-remain-at-risk-from-attack/2020/12/28/d734b76c-4949-11eb-839a-cf4ba7b7c48c_story.html
Nashville bombing is a potent reminder that communications systems remain 
at risk from attack


[...]
Experts applauded the telecommunications giant for responding quickly to 
the explosion by deploying portable cellular sites to help restore some 
service. But they were alarmed by the widespread nature of the outages, 
both in terms of geography as well as the variety of services affected. 
Key to constructing systems that can withstand attacks and natural 
disasters — and recover quickly — is avoiding a single point of failure, 
they said.

[...]

RE: 10g residential CPE

[Keith Medcalf]

On Monday, 28 December, 2020 10:48. Darin Steffl wrote:

>The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is much
>higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential
>customers call at least 15x more often compared to business customers
>compared on a 1:1 ratio.

Are you sure that is not related to "residential services" being of a generally 
lower quality than business services?  It has been my experience that shoddy 
service generates higher need for "support" than does "non-shoddy" service.  In 
this regard, the price for "business" services should be less than "residential 
service" by a couple of orders of magnitude since it costs orders of magnitude 
more money to "support" shoddy services than non-shoddy services.

--
Be decisive.  Make a decision, right or wrong.  The road of life is paved with 
flat squirrels who could not make a decision.

Re: Nashville

[Sean Donelan]

AT&T statement says nearly all services have been restore in Nashville as 
of Monday, 5pm CST


They are working on permanent repairs.

https://about.att.com/pages/disaster_relief/nashville.html


AT&T's Network Disaster Recovery group faces management questions nearly 
every year to justifying their budget. While no one wants disasters, 
business continuity has to be part of the business.  There are also mutual 
aid agreements between companies, but I don't know how many were invoked 
for this incident.


https://about.att.com/ecms/dam/pages/disaster_relief/NDR_edited_04.22.19.pdf

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Ben Cannon]

We are doing a similar project in Marin county - regardless of ability to pay.  
If I can make it pencil, not only why not, but shouldn’t we all?

Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon, ASCE
6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC 
CEO 
b...@6by7.net
"The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company in the 
world.”

FCC License KJ6FJJ

Sent from my iPhone via RFC1149.

> On Dec 28, 2020, at 12:24 PM, Aaron Wendel  
> wrote:
> 
> We still build when needed. We're in the process of building to 700 new 
> apartments so we can provide them with free service.  We're actually pulling 
> 576 strands into the basement of one building to backhaul each apartment to 
> it's own switch port in the new hut we just deployed to service that new 
> development.  (we don't use a PON system.  Everyone has a dedicated switch 
> port.)  Also, keep in mind that this isn't all we do.  This is a very small 
> part of a much bigger pie.  So I agree with you.  If this was it then it 
> would make no sense.  When you look at all the pieces together it makes 
> perfect sense.
> 
> Aaron
> 
> 
>> On 12/28/2020 1:50 PM, Baldur Norddahl wrote:
>> I applaud your commitment to helping your local community. Just want to 
>> point out that this is a charity because it does not scale. Nobody could 
>> build out a FTTH network and make it free as a business case. But there are 
>> plenty of people that made a network for their neighbors and provided that 
>> for free. Maybe a person had a commercial fiber to his home and thought he 
>> could just as well share it. This might be on a bigger scale but it is the 
>> same.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Baldur
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 8:27 PM Aaron Wendel > > wrote:
>> 
>>Darin,
>> 
>>Our business support and residential support is the same
>>department.  I
>>have to pay those people to be in the office either way so it doesn't
>>cost me any "more" to provide support for the residences. Yes,
>>walking
>>Grandma through getting her email can sometimes be a chore but that
>>person is on the payroll whether he/she is helping Grandma or sitting
>>there chatting with his/her co-worker.  If we dumped all the
>>residential
>>customers we would still have the same cost structure we do now.
>> 
>>Again, it's been free for the last 7 years at this point. I've never
>>been one to really do what I "should" anyway.
>> 
>>Aaron
>> 
>> 
>>On 12/28/2020 11:48 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:
>>> Aaron,
>>>
>>> The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is much
>>> higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential
>>> customers call at least 15x more often compared to business
>>customers
>>> compared on a 1:1 ratio.
>>>
>>> I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service
>>because we
>>> make enough money on the business side of things. You should be
>>> charging something, at least $20-30 per month.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:15 AM Aaron Wendel
>>> >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone
>>out to a
>>> house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12
>>> installments
>>> of $25.
>>>
>>> The TIK alone costs us about $250.
>>>
>>> Aaron
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Aaron,
>>> >>
>>> >> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free
>>internet
>>> >> service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical
>>for free
>>> when
>>> >> you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.
>>> >
>>> > They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment of
>>US$300.
>>> >
>>> > Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess
>>they'd
>>> value
>>> > the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take.
>>> >
>>> > So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1 year,
>>in which
>>> > time they'd have likely upgraded the customer.
>>> >
>>> > Mark.
>>>
>>> --
>>>  
>>> Aaron Wendel
>>> Chief Technical Officer
>>> Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
>>> (816)550-9030
>>> http://www.wholesaleinternet.com
>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Darin Steffl
>> 

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Niels Bakker]

* mpet...@netflight.com (Matthew Petach) [Tue 29 Dec 2020, 01:08 CET]:
But as far as the physics goes, the conversion of biomatter into 
petrochemicals in the ground is more "renewable" than the conversion 
of hydrogen into helium in the sun.


It's not. Where did Mr Metcalf think the energy comes from that is 
necessary for that process? You know, the energy that we can now 
extract by burning it?



-- Niels.

--
"It's amazing what people will do to get their name on the internet, 
 which is odd, because all you really need is a Blogspot account."

-- roy edroso, alicublog.blogspot.com

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/28/20 4:06 PM, Matthew Petach wrote:


I think you may have misunderstood Keith's comment about
it being "all a matter of time-frame."

He's right--when the sun consumes all the hydrogen in
the hydrogen-to-helium fusion process and begins to
expand into a red dwarf, that's it; there's no going
backwards, no putting the genie back into the bottle,
no "renewing" the sun.  It's purely a one-way trip.

Now, as far as humans go, we're far more likely to be
extinct due to other reasons before we come anywhere
near to that point.

But as far as the physics goes, the conversion of biomatter
into petrochemicals in the ground is more "renewable" than
the conversion of hydrogen into helium in the sun.

It's just that we're far more likely to hit the near-term
shortage crunch of petrochemicals in the ground than
we are the longer-term exhaustion of hydrogen in the
core of the sun.   ;)


2020: Hawking Radiation, take me away.

Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Matthew Petach]

On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 12:28 PM Mark Tinka  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/27/20 21:56, Keith Medcalf wrote:
>
> > Me too.  On top of that, diesel and gasoline are pretty reliable.
> Though some people may argue about "renewables" the fact is that it is all
> a matter of time-frame.  Solar power, for example, is not renewable.  Once
> it is all used up, it will not "renew" itself -- and this "using up"
> process is quite independent of our usage of it, as it happens.  The time
> to depletion may be somewhat long, but it still has a time to depletion.
> Oil and Gas, however, is a "renewable" resource and as a mere physical and
> chemical process it is occurring at this very moment.
>
> Well, the sun can't be "used up". You just have to wait 12hrs - 15hrs
> before you can see it again :-).
>


Mark,

I think you may have misunderstood Keith's comment about
it being "all a matter of time-frame."

He's right--when the sun consumes all the hydrogen in
the hydrogen-to-helium fusion process and begins to
expand into a red dwarf, that's it; there's no going
backwards, no putting the genie back into the bottle,
no "renewing" the sun.  It's purely a one-way trip.

Now, as far as humans go, we're far more likely to be
extinct due to other reasons before we come anywhere
near to that point.

But as far as the physics goes, the conversion of biomatter
into petrochemicals in the ground is more "renewable" than
the conversion of hydrogen into helium in the sun.

It's just that we're far more likely to hit the near-term
shortage crunch of petrochemicals in the ground than
we are the longer-term exhaustion of hydrogen in the
core of the sun.   ;)

Matt

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Jay R. Ashworth]

- Original Message -
> From: "Mark Tinka" 

> The MUA many (if not all) of us are using to read this has been obtained
> for free, and with ongoing support, no less. I'd like to see someone
> dish out cash for a commercial alternative.

Zimbra?

K9?

...

Mutt?

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   j...@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/20 22:02, Mel Beckman wrote:


Darin,

Surely you at least give the paying customers priority over the 
non-paying? It’s one thing to say “I have to write paychecks no matter 
what”. It’s another to say “I’ll give away my support to free 
customers AND degrade support for paying customers as a result.” Your 
tech support guy “walking Grandma through getting her email” is 
necessarily not accessible for the duration to paying customers.


This means your staffing must be large enough to never have any 
queuing, or you’re giving away your paying customers' time to 
non-paying customers. Neither approach is scalable in a competitive 
business environment, because SOMEBODY is paying for all those 
resources, and if it’s your customers, they will buy elsewhere. Your 
approach only work until you run out of other people’s money.


It's quite fascinating to me how some folk are trying their darnedest to 
fit someone else's creativity into their own mold, so it's more 
understandable to them :-). We live in an age of curiousity, which has 
quickly replaced the age of expertise. If you don't know, ask...


The MUA many (if not all) of us are using to read this has been obtained 
for free, and with ongoing support, no less. I'd like to see someone 
dish out cash for a commercial alternative.


As are a ton of apps and services we use in our daily lives.

Pretty sure someone in the infrastructure space figuring out some 
creativity that actually improves someone else's life with minimal 
burden either way is right up there with, "That's alright with us"...


Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/20 22:24, Aaron Wendel wrote:

We still build when needed. We're in the process of building to 700 
new apartments so we can provide them with free service.  We're 
actually pulling 576 strands into the basement of one building to 
backhaul each apartment to it's own switch port in the new hut we just 
deployed to service that new development.  (we don't use a PON 
system.  Everyone has a dedicated switch port.)  Also, keep in mind 
that this isn't all we do.  This is a very small part of a much bigger 
pie.  So I agree with you.  If this was it then it would make no 
sense.  When you look at all the pieces together it makes perfect sense.


* Drops mic *

Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

We prioritize calls based on severity.  If both Google and Grandma call 
and say they have a cut then we have people to service both at the same 
time.  If Google, Century Link, Verizon, AT&T and Grandma all call then 
Grandma gets to wait a day.  That being the case, it's not dependent on 
revenue. Emergency Services (911 and Police radio feeds) gets #1 
priority even though they're non-paying.


But yes, in extreme situations the residential customers would be 
delayed to service the paying customers.  We do have people cross 
trained from other parts of our businesses so we can allocate internally 
in emergencies.  In almost a decade though I can't think of a situation 
where someone had to wait for service because we didn't have the 
resources to service them.


Aaron


On 12/28/2020 2:02 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:

Darin,

Surely you at least give the paying customers priority over the 
non-paying? It’s one thing to say “I have to write paychecks no matter 
what”. It’s another to say “I’ll give away my support to free 
customers AND degrade support for paying customers as a result.” Your 
tech support guy “walking Grandma through getting her email” is 
necessarily not accessible for the duration to paying customers.


This means your staffing must be large enough to never have any 
queuing, or you’re giving away your paying customers' time to 
non-paying customers. Neither approach is scalable in a competitive 
business environment, because SOMEBODY is paying for all those 
resources, and if it’s your customers, they will buy elsewhere. Your 
approach only work until you run out of other people’s money.


  -mel

On Dec 28, 2020, at 11:50 AM, Baldur Norddahl 
mailto:baldur.nordd...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I applaud your commitment to helping your local community. Just want 
to point out that this is a charity because it does not scale. Nobody 
could build out a FTTH network and make it free as a business case. 
But there are plenty of people that made a network for their 
neighbors and provided that for free. Maybe a person had a commercial 
fiber to his home and thought he could just as well share it. This 
might be on a bigger scale but it is the same.


Regards,

Baldur


On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 8:27 PM Aaron Wendel 
mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>> wrote:


Darin,

Our business support and residential support is the same
department.  I
have to pay those people to be in the office either way so it
doesn't
cost me any "more" to provide support for the residences. Yes,
walking
Grandma through getting her email can sometimes be a chore but that
person is on the payroll whether he/she is helping Grandma or
sitting
there chatting with his/her co-worker.  If we dumped all the
residential
customers we would still have the same cost structure we do now.

Again, it's been free for the last 7 years at this point.  I've
never
been one to really do what I "should" anyway.

Aaron


On 12/28/2020 11:48 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:
> Aaron,
>
> The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is
much
> higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential
> customers call at least 15x more often compared to business
customers
> compared on a 1:1 ratio.
>
> I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service
because we
> make enough money on the business side of things. You should be
> charging something, at least $20-30 per month.
>
> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:15 AM Aaron Wendel
> mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>
>> wrote:
>
>     The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone
out to a
>     house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12
>     installments
>     of $25.
>
>     The TIK alone costs us about $250.
>
>     Aaron
>
>
>     On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     > On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:
>     >
>     >> Aaron,
>     >>
>     >> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free
internet
>     >> service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical
for free
>     when
>     >> you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.
>     >
>     > They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment
of US$300.
>     >
>     > Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess
they'd
>     value
>     > the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take.
>     >
>     > So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1
year, in which
>     > time they'd have likely upgraded the customer.
>     >
>     > Mark.
>
>     --
>  
>     Aaron Wendel
   

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Valdis Klētnieks]

On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 20:02:36 +, Mel Beckman said:
> This means your staffing must be large enough to never have any queuing, or
> you’re giving away your paying customers' time to non-paying customers. 
> Neither
> approach is scalable in a competitive business environment, because SOMEBODY 
> is
> paying for all those resources, and if it’s your customers, they will buy
> elsewhere. Your approach only work until you run out of other people’s 
> money.

I dunno.  He's been doing it for 7 years, it sounds like it's sustainable in 
his environment.


pgpihFY6TOwD8.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

We still build when needed. We're in the process of building to 700 new 
apartments so we can provide them with free service.  We're actually 
pulling 576 strands into the basement of one building to backhaul each 
apartment to it's own switch port in the new hut we just deployed to 
service that new development.  (we don't use a PON system.  Everyone has 
a dedicated switch port.)  Also, keep in mind that this isn't all we 
do.  This is a very small part of a much bigger pie.  So I agree with 
you.  If this was it then it would make no sense.  When you look at all 
the pieces together it makes perfect sense.


Aaron


On 12/28/2020 1:50 PM, Baldur Norddahl wrote:
I applaud your commitment to helping your local community. Just want 
to point out that this is a charity because it does not scale. Nobody 
could build out a FTTH network and make it free as a business case. 
But there are plenty of people that made a network for their neighbors 
and provided that for free. Maybe a person had a commercial fiber to 
his home and thought he could just as well share it. This might be on 
a bigger scale but it is the same.


Regards,

Baldur


On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 8:27 PM Aaron Wendel 
mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>> wrote:


Darin,

Our business support and residential support is the same
department.  I
have to pay those people to be in the office either way so it doesn't
cost me any "more" to provide support for the residences. Yes,
walking
Grandma through getting her email can sometimes be a chore but that
person is on the payroll whether he/she is helping Grandma or sitting
there chatting with his/her co-worker.  If we dumped all the
residential
customers we would still have the same cost structure we do now.

Again, it's been free for the last 7 years at this point. I've never
been one to really do what I "should" anyway.

Aaron


On 12/28/2020 11:48 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:
> Aaron,
>
> The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is much
> higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential
> customers call at least 15x more often compared to business
customers
> compared on a 1:1 ratio.
>
> I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service
because we
> make enough money on the business side of things. You should be
> charging something, at least $20-30 per month.
>
> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:15 AM Aaron Wendel
> mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>
>> wrote:
>
>     The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone
out to a
>     house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12
>     installments
>     of $25.
>
>     The TIK alone costs us about $250.
>
>     Aaron
>
>
>     On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     > On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:
>     >
>     >> Aaron,
>     >>
>     >> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free
internet
>     >> service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical
for free
>     when
>     >> you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.
>     >
>     > They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment of
US$300.
>     >
>     > Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess
they'd
>     value
>     > the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take.
>     >
>     > So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1 year,
in which
>     > time they'd have likely upgraded the customer.
>     >
>     > Mark.
>
>     --
>  
>     Aaron Wendel
>     Chief Technical Officer
>     Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
>     (816)550-9030
> http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

>
>  
>
>
>
> --
> Darin Steffl
> Minnesota WiFi
> www.mnwifi.com  >
> 507-634-WiFi
> Like us on Facebook >

-- 


Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com 




--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mel Beckman]

Darin,

Surely you at least give the paying customers priority over the non-paying? 
It’s one thing to say “I have to write paychecks no matter what”. It’s another 
to say “I’ll give away my support to free customers AND degrade support for 
paying customers as a result.” Your tech support guy “walking Grandma through 
getting her email” is necessarily not accessible for the duration to paying 
customers.

This means your staffing must be large enough to never have any queuing, or 
you’re giving away your paying customers' time to non-paying customers. Neither 
approach is scalable in a competitive business environment, because SOMEBODY is 
paying for all those resources, and if it’s your customers, they will buy 
elsewhere. Your approach only work until you run out of other people’s money.

  -mel

On Dec 28, 2020, at 11:50 AM, Baldur Norddahl 
mailto:baldur.nordd...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I applaud your commitment to helping your local community. Just want to point 
out that this is a charity because it does not scale. Nobody could build out a 
FTTH network and make it free as a business case. But there are plenty of 
people that made a network for their neighbors and provided that for free. 
Maybe a person had a commercial fiber to his home and thought he could just as 
well share it. This might be on a bigger scale but it is the same.

Regards,

Baldur


On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 8:27 PM Aaron Wendel 
mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>> wrote:
Darin,

Our business support and residential support is the same department.  I
have to pay those people to be in the office either way so it doesn't
cost me any "more" to provide support for the residences. Yes, walking
Grandma through getting her email can sometimes be a chore but that
person is on the payroll whether he/she is helping Grandma or sitting
there chatting with his/her co-worker.  If we dumped all the residential
customers we would still have the same cost structure we do now.

Again, it's been free for the last 7 years at this point.  I've never
been one to really do what I "should" anyway.

Aaron


On 12/28/2020 11:48 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:
> Aaron,
>
> The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is much
> higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential
> customers call at least 15x more often compared to business customers
> compared on a 1:1 ratio.
>
> I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service because we
> make enough money on the business side of things. You should be
> charging something, at least $20-30 per month.
>
> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:15 AM Aaron Wendel
> mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net> 
> >> 
> wrote:
>
> The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone out to a
> house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12
> installments
> of $25.
>
> The TIK alone costs us about $250.
>
> Aaron
>
>
> On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:
> >
> >> Aaron,
> >>
> >> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet
> >> service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free
> when
> >> you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.
> >
> > They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment of US$300.
> >
> > Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess they'd
> value
> > the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take.
> >
> > So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1 year, in which
> > time they'd have likely upgraded the customer.
> >
> > Mark.
>
> --
> 
> Aaron Wendel
> Chief Technical Officer
> Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
> (816)550-9030
> http://www.wholesaleinternet.com 
> >
> 
>
>
>
> --
> Darin Steffl
> Minnesota WiFi
> www.mnwifi.com 
> 507-634-WiFi
> Like us on Facebook 

--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Baldur Norddahl]

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 8:48 PM Seth Mattinen  wrote:

> On 12/28/20 9:11 AM, Aaron Wendel wrote:
> > Actually our free service doesn't have limitations, has an SLA, no
> > time/term restrictions, a CPE, support, etc.
>
>
> How do SLA refunds work on free service? Do you just pay them some cash
> value instead of credits?
>

I find SLA refunds are meaningless anyway. The SLA is more about stating
what level of service is expected. Then we can tell if we succeeded or
failed in delivering what was expected. In the case of failure nothing can
fix that other than a plan for how it can be improved going forward.
Getting money back will usually not do much to fix the hardship poor
service put you through.

Regards,

Baldur

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Jared Mauch]

> On Dec 26, 2020, at 10:35 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson via NANOG  
> wrote:
> 
> Here the "truth" is that if you game, you need to have a wired connection to 
> your gaming computer. All gamers "know" this.

My sons switch is hard wired, he gets considerable advantage (apparently) due 
to using the USB adapter vs wifi when playing online.

- Jared

Re: [External] 10g residential CPE

[Jared Mauch]

> On Dec 25, 2020, at 5:32 PM, John Levine  wrote:
> 
> I agree it is odd to make 100/100 the top speed. The fiber service I
> have from my local non-Bell telco offers 100/100, 500/500, and
> 1000/1000. FiOS where you can get it goes to 940/880.
> 
> The obvious guess is that their upstream bandwidth is
> underprovisioned, or maybe they figure 100/100 is all they need to
> compete in that particular market.

My TV (wired) pulls at higher bitrates when doing the initial fetches of the 
buffering.  Not unusual to see it pulling more than 150Mb/s at the start of a 
(non-4K) show.

I think the extent that end-users are impacted by these slower speeds while 
buffering is under appreciated in the experience.

At $dayjob many servers are 10G or 100G so the limiting factor is most likely 
the CPE or ISP.  I was hearing last night about someone with a device that 
didn’t appear to be hitting the line-rate but was dropping 0.5% of packets when 
running at 3Gb/s until they upgraded to one of the major networking vendors we 
all know here.

In my small FTTH network the slowest link is at the customer home and all the 
devices are hardware ASIC forwarded vs offload as you find in some of the 
low/mid-tier devices (eg: Tik/UBNT).

Many streaming things do 8 second waits between chunks, so if you’re pulling a 
video stream at 6Mb/s you really are pulling 6*8 (lets say 50) then idle for 7 
seconds.  If you’re on a 25Mb/s service or even a 50Mb/s service it won’t work 
the way you expect if there’s any other activity.

- Jared

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Baldur Norddahl]

I applaud your commitment to helping your local community. Just want to
point out that this is a charity because it does not scale. Nobody could
build out a FTTH network and make it free as a business case. But there are
plenty of people that made a network for their neighbors and provided that
for free. Maybe a person had a commercial fiber to his home and thought he
could just as well share it. This might be on a bigger scale but it is the
same.

Regards,

Baldur


On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 8:27 PM Aaron Wendel 
wrote:

> Darin,
>
> Our business support and residential support is the same department.  I
> have to pay those people to be in the office either way so it doesn't
> cost me any "more" to provide support for the residences. Yes, walking
> Grandma through getting her email can sometimes be a chore but that
> person is on the payroll whether he/she is helping Grandma or sitting
> there chatting with his/her co-worker.  If we dumped all the residential
> customers we would still have the same cost structure we do now.
>
> Again, it's been free for the last 7 years at this point.  I've never
> been one to really do what I "should" anyway.
>
> Aaron
>
>
> On 12/28/2020 11:48 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:
> > Aaron,
> >
> > The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is much
> > higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential
> > customers call at least 15x more often compared to business customers
> > compared on a 1:1 ratio.
> >
> > I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service because we
> > make enough money on the business side of things. You should be
> > charging something, at least $20-30 per month.
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:15 AM Aaron Wendel
> > mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>>
> wrote:
> >
> > The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone out to a
> > house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12
> > installments
> > of $25.
> >
> > The TIK alone costs us about $250.
> >
> > Aaron
> >
> >
> > On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:
> > >
> > >> Aaron,
> > >>
> > >> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet
> > >> service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free
> > when
> > >> you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.
> > >
> > > They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment of US$300.
> > >
> > > Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess they'd
> > value
> > > the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take.
> > >
> > > So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1 year, in which
> > > time they'd have likely upgraded the customer.
> > >
> > > Mark.
> >
> > --
> > 
> > Aaron Wendel
> > Chief Technical Officer
> > Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
> > (816)550-9030
> > http://www.wholesaleinternet.com 
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Darin Steffl
> > Minnesota WiFi
> > www.mnwifi.com 
> > 507-634-WiFi
> > Like us on Facebook 
>
> --
> 
> Aaron Wendel
> Chief Technical Officer
> Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
> (816)550-9030
> http://www.wholesaleinternet.com
> 
>
>

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Seth Mattinen]

On 12/28/20 9:11 AM, Aaron Wendel wrote:
Actually our free service doesn't have limitations, has an SLA, no 
time/term restrictions, a CPE, support, etc.



How do SLA refunds work on free service? Do you just pay them some cash 
value instead of credits?

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/20 20:47, Allen McKinley Kitchen (gmail) wrote:

A company doing what you describe is one I’d really love to work for.

May that philosophy of business be richly blessed.


Couldn't have said it better myself!

Needless to say, when you work with passion and authenticity, somehow, 
the millions follow. You can't keep them away.


Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/20 19:48, Darin Steffl wrote:


Aaron,

The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is much 
higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential 
customers call at least 15x more often compared to business customers 
compared on a 1:1 ratio.


I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service because we 
make enough money on the business side of things. You should be 
charging something, at least $20-30 per month.


Why "should" they be doing anything?

If their Metro fibre business allows them some change to prop the rest 
of their community up in a way that does not put them out, who are we to 
say they need to conform to what our "gold standard" of economics is?


Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/20 19:15, Aaron Wendel wrote:

The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone out to a 
house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12 
installments of $25.


The TIK alone costs us about $250.


Still love it :-)!

Thanks for sharing.

Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/20 19:11, Aaron Wendel wrote:

Actually our free service doesn't have limitations, has an SLA, no 
time/term restrictions, a CPE, support, etc.  I explained the "why" in 
a different post so I won't go over it again.  98% of our residential 
customers are on the free plan.


Guess my conjecturbation was not shy to show up :-).

Thanks for clearing up. It's great to see that you are relying on your 
cash-cow to be able to extend this free service to the less fortunate!


That's purpose!

Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/20 19:01, Aaron Wendel wrote:


Darin,

We charge a $300 one time install charge to cover our costs on the 1G 
service (which can be paid out at $25/mo if you can't afford $300 all 
at once).


The area we serve is mainly lower and lower-middle-class income with 
an 80% transient population.  Seven years ago, when "digital divide" 
and "digital literacy" were the buzz words, we instituted our "free" 
1G service in an effort to level the playing field for the population 
who, otherwise, can't afford internet at all, let alone at that 
speed.  Until recently we didn't charge for residential service at any 
tier.  Rather than putting in "income tiers", making people fill out 
applications for assistance, etc. we just made it free for everyone.  
We also provide free 100G service to the local school district as well 
as free service to local government, police, fire stations (Firemen 
(and women) had to pay for their own internet to use while they were 
on duty before us), library, churches and other non-profits.


That's the why.  The how is that we control a LOT of fiber in the 
metro area that is in use by a lot of very large providers that 
everyone's heard of.  We make enough money doing that so we don't feel 
the need to charge the residences for a basic level of service.


I love it!

Well done, and really creative!

Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/20 16:57, Mel Beckman wrote:

It’s not just the lithium load in the environment that is of concern. 
As early as 2018 the US EPA had collected data on the incidence of 
so-called “hot fires” caused by lithium batteries in the waste stream. 
So far, nobody has been killed. But it’s only a matter of time before 
someone is, given that there are no thermal protection measures built 
into the cells themselves, only into a functioning product. But the 
industry has dismissed self-extinguishing batteries as too impactful 
on weight/performance ratio.


https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2018-03/documents/timpane_epa_li_slides312_ll_1.pdf 



Certainly, poor handling as part of disposal of spent Li-Ion batteries 
is likely not well appreciated. Worse when you are dealing with 
stationery storage like residential, commercial and utility applications.


It's a terrible idea to handle Li-Ion battery disposal without 
expertise, understanding and training. The fact is that for the 
pervasiveness and proliferation of Li-Ion technology,  its safety is not 
a very well understood in many respects, with physical handling being, 
perhaps, the least appreciated.


Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

Darin,

Our business support and residential support is the same department.  I 
have to pay those people to be in the office either way so it doesn't 
cost me any "more" to provide support for the residences. Yes, walking 
Grandma through getting her email can sometimes be a chore but that 
person is on the payroll whether he/she is helping Grandma or sitting 
there chatting with his/her co-worker.  If we dumped all the residential 
customers we would still have the same cost structure we do now.


Again, it's been free for the last 7 years at this point.  I've never 
been one to really do what I "should" anyway.


Aaron


On 12/28/2020 11:48 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:

Aaron,

The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is much 
higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential 
customers call at least 15x more often compared to business customers 
compared on a 1:1 ratio.


I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service because we 
make enough money on the business side of things. You should be 
charging something, at least $20-30 per month.


On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:15 AM Aaron Wendel 
mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>> wrote:


The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone out to a
house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12
installments
of $25.

The TIK alone costs us about $250.

Aaron


On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
>
>
> On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:
>
>> Aaron,
>>
>> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet
>> service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free
when
>> you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.
>
> They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment of US$300.
>
> Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess they'd
value
> the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take.
>
> So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1 year, in which
> time they'd have likely upgraded the customer.
>
> Mark.

-- 


Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com 




--
Darin Steffl
Minnesota WiFi
www.mnwifi.com 
507-634-WiFi
Like us on Facebook 


--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Allen McKinley Kitchen (gmail)]

A company doing what you describe is one I’d really love to work for.

May that philosophy of business be richly blessed.

..Allen

> On Dec 28, 2020, at 12:03, Aaron Wendel  wrote:
> 
> Darin,
> 
> We charge a $300 one time install charge to cover our costs on the 1G service 
> (which can be paid out at $25/mo if you can't afford $300 all at once).
> 
> The area we serve is mainly lower and lower-middle-class income with an 80% 
> transient population.  Seven years ago, when "digital divide" and "digital 
> literacy" were the buzz words, we instituted our "free" 1G service in an 
> effort to level the playing field for the population who, otherwise, can't 
> afford internet at all, let alone at that speed.  Until recently we didn't 
> charge for residential service at any tier.  Rather than putting in "income 
> tiers", making people fill out applications for assistance, etc. we just made 
> it free for everyone.  We also provide free 100G service to the local school 
> district as well as free service to local government, police, fire stations 
> (Firemen (and women) had to pay for their own internet to use while they were 
> on duty before us), library, churches and other non-profits.
> 
> That's the why.  The how is that we control a LOT of fiber in the metro area 
> that is in use by a lot of very large providers that everyone's heard of.  We 
> make enough money doing that so we don't feel the need to charge the 
> residences for a basic level of service.
> 
> Aaron
> 
> 
>> On 12/26/2020 12:48 PM, Darin Steffl wrote:
>> Aaron,
>> 
>> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet service? How 
>> and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free when you should be a 
>> minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.
>> 
>> On Sat, Dec 26, 2020, 12:31 PM Aaron Wendel > > wrote:
>> 
>>We run MikroTik RB4011s for residential speeds between 1G and 10G
>>or just supply a media converter.  For residential 40G and 100G we
>>just drop in Arista or Extreme switches.  SMBs are normally just a
>>media converter or direct fiber handoff.
>> 
>>https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_5hacq2hnd_in
>>
>> 
>>There are not a lot of options for good, off the shelf 10G CPE
>>equipment.  The handful of 10G residential customers we have seem
>>to be happy with the tik.  The couple that don’t use it have
>>rolled their own solution.
>> 
>>Like anything, I’m sure once the major home broadband providers
>>start to catch up with us smaller guys the vendors will catch up
>>as well.
>> 
>>https://www.kcfiber.com/residential
>>
>> 
>>Aaron
>> 
>> 
>>>On Dec 26, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Mel Beckman >>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>
i really don't get what the problem is. it's like they're being
deliberately obtuse.
>>> 
>>>Michael,
>>> 
>>>If vendors saw a 10GbE CPE market, they would serve it. Obviously
>>>they don’t see a market. Why don’t people insisting vendors build
>>>their hobby horse see that? It’s like they’re being deliberately
>>>obtuse :)
>>> 
>>>-mel via cell
>>> 
On Dec 26, 2020, at 9:16 AM, Michael Thomas >>>> wrote:
 

>On 12/26/20 8:00 AM, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:
> 
>Anybody got a feel for what percent of the third-party gear
>currently sold to
>consumers has sane bufferbloat support in 2020, when we've
>*known* that
>de-bufferbloated gear is a viable differentiatior if marketed
>right (consider the
>percent of families that have at least one gamer who cares)?
> 
I don't know percentages, but just trying to find cpe that
support it in their specs is depressingly small. considering
that they're all using linux and queuing discipline software is
ages old, i really don't get what the problem is. it's like
they're being deliberately obtuse. given all of the zoom'ing
happening now you think that somebody would hit them with the
clue-bat that this is a marketing opportunity.
 
Mike
 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Aaron Wendel
> Chief Technical Officer
> Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
> (816)550-9030
> http://www.wholesaleinternet.com
> 
> 

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Darin Steffl]

Aaron,

The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is much higher
for residential than any business customer. Our residential customers call
at least 15x more often compared to business customers compared on a 1:1
ratio.

I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service because we make
enough money on the business side of things. You should be charging
something, at least $20-30 per month.

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:15 AM Aaron Wendel 
wrote:

> The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone out to a
> house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12 installments
> of $25.
>
> The TIK alone costs us about $250.
>
> Aaron
>
>
> On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:
> >
> >> Aaron,
> >>
> >> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet
> >> service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free when
> >> you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.
> >
> > They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment of US$300.
> >
> > Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess they'd value
> > the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take.
> >
> > So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1 year, in which
> > time they'd have likely upgraded the customer.
> >
> > Mark.
>
> --
> 
> Aaron Wendel
> Chief Technical Officer
> Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
> (816)550-9030
> http://www.wholesaleinternet.com
> 
>
>

-- 
Darin Steffl
Minnesota WiFi
www.mnwifi.com
507-634-WiFi
Like us on Facebook 

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone out to a 
house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12 installments 
of $25.


The TIK alone costs us about $250.

Aaron


On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:



On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:


Aaron,

One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet 
service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free when 
you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.


They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment of US$300.

Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess they'd value 
the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take.


So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1 year, in which 
time they'd have likely upgraded the customer.


Mark.


--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

Actually our free service doesn't have limitations, has an SLA, no 
time/term restrictions, a CPE, support, etc.  I explained the "why" in a 
different post so I won't go over it again.  98% of our residential 
customers are on the free plan.


Aaron


On 12/27/2020 4:38 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:



On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:


Aaron,

One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet 
service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free when 
you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.




For me, looks like a loss-leader to reel customers in, perhaps with 
some limitations, no guarantees, time/term restrictions, no CPE, no 
support, e.t.c., that make a "smooth" upgrade to 2Gbps or 3Gbps more 
sensible.


My theory would be that getting customers on to the platform is the 
hardest step. Once they're on, pivoting them isn't difficult, 
particularly if you nabbed them from a competitor that was charging 
them some $$ for 10Mbps.


Think about it, they don't offer a "Multi-Gigabit Wireless Router" 
with the 1Gbps service. Chances are the customers who choose this 
package either have a crappy device, or will likely buy a crappy 
device on their own. They'd never trouble the 1Gbps product, probably 
call KC Fiber for to complain about not getting 1Gbps, upon which KC 
Fiber recommend their own CPE, a more guaranteed package, e.t.c., and 
in comes the 2Gbps or higher, revenue-generating service.


One the network side, it's just the same port, different (cheap) 
optic. A cheap port in use for free is better than an unused port, if 
the switch and fibre are already installed, and at less than 60% take-up.


It's creative, I like it!



Mark.



--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

No.  Google still operates their plant in the KC area.

Aaron


On 12/27/2020 4:06 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:



On 12/26/20 20:30, Aaron Wendel wrote:



https://www.kcfiber.com/residential 



Curious, any chance you took over Google's fibre project :-)?

Mark.


--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

One.  For an employee.  Primarily just to say we had done it. :)

Aaron


On 12/26/2020 4:15 PM, Lady Benjamin PD Cannon wrote:

Have you done any 100g Residential connections?

—L.B.

Lady Benjamin PD Cannon, ASCE
6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC
CEO
b...@6by7.net 
"The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company 
in the world.”

FCC License KJ6FJJ


On Dec 26, 2020, at 10:30 AM, Aaron Wendel 
mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>> wrote:


We run MikroTik RB4011s for residential speeds between 1G and 10G or 
just supply a media converter.  For residential 40G and 100G we just 
drop in Arista or Extreme switches.  SMBs are normally just a media 
converter or direct fiber handoff.


https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_5hacq2hnd_in 



There are not a lot of options for good, off the shelf 10G CPE 
equipment.  The handful of 10G residential customers we have seem to 
be happy with the tik.  The couple that don’t use it have rolled 
their own solution.


Like anything, I’m sure once the major home broadband providers start 
to catch up with us smaller guys the vendors will catch up as well.


https://www.kcfiber.com/residential 

Aaron


On Dec 26, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Mel Beckman > wrote:



i really don't get what the problem is. it's like they're being 
deliberately obtuse.


Michael,

If vendors saw a 10GbE CPE market, they would serve it. Obviously 
they don’t see a market. Why don’t people insisting vendors build 
their hobby horse see that? It’s like they’re being deliberately 
obtuse :)


-mel via cell

On Dec 26, 2020, at 9:16 AM, Michael Thomas > wrote:




On 12/26/20 8:00 AM, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:

Anybody got a feel for what percent of the third-party gear 
currently sold to
consumers has sane bufferbloat support in 2020, when we've *known* 
that
de-bufferbloated gear is a viable differentiatior if marketed 
right (consider the

percent of families that have at least one gamer who cares)?

I don't know percentages, but just trying to find cpe that support 
it in their specs is depressingly small. considering that they're 
all using linux and queuing discipline software is ages old, i 
really don't get what the problem is. it's like they're being 
deliberately obtuse. given all of the zoom'ing happening now you 
think that somebody would hit them with the clue-bat that this is a 
marketing opportunity.


Mike





--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

Darin,

We charge a $300 one time install charge to cover our costs on the 1G 
service (which can be paid out at $25/mo if you can't afford $300 all at 
once).


The area we serve is mainly lower and lower-middle-class income with an 
80% transient population.  Seven years ago, when "digital divide" and 
"digital literacy" were the buzz words, we instituted our "free" 1G 
service in an effort to level the playing field for the population who, 
otherwise, can't afford internet at all, let alone at that speed.  Until 
recently we didn't charge for residential service at any tier.  Rather 
than putting in "income tiers", making people fill out applications for 
assistance, etc. we just made it free for everyone.  We also provide 
free 100G service to the local school district as well as free service 
to local government, police, fire stations (Firemen (and women) had to 
pay for their own internet to use while they were on duty before us), 
library, churches and other non-profits.


That's the why.  The how is that we control a LOT of fiber in the metro 
area that is in use by a lot of very large providers that everyone's 
heard of.  We make enough money doing that so we don't feel the need to 
charge the residences for a basic level of service.


Aaron


On 12/26/2020 12:48 PM, Darin Steffl wrote:

Aaron,

One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet 
service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free when 
you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.


On Sat, Dec 26, 2020, 12:31 PM Aaron Wendel 
mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>> wrote:


We run MikroTik RB4011s for residential speeds between 1G and 10G
or just supply a media converter.  For residential 40G and 100G we
just drop in Arista or Extreme switches.  SMBs are normally just a
media converter or direct fiber handoff.

https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_5hacq2hnd_in


There are not a lot of options for good, off the shelf 10G CPE
equipment.  The handful of 10G residential customers we have seem
to be happy with the tik.  The couple that don’t use it have
rolled their own solution.

Like anything, I’m sure once the major home broadband providers
start to catch up with us smaller guys the vendors will catch up
as well.

https://www.kcfiber.com/residential


Aaron



On Dec 26, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Mel Beckman mailto:m...@beckman.org>> wrote:



i really don't get what the problem is. it's like they're being
deliberately obtuse.


Michael,

If vendors saw a 10GbE CPE market, they would serve it. Obviously
they don’t see a market. Why don’t people insisting vendors build
their hobby horse see that? It’s like they’re being deliberately
obtuse :)

-mel via cell


On Dec 26, 2020, at 9:16 AM, Michael Thomas mailto:m...@mtcc.com>> wrote:



On 12/26/20 8:00 AM, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:

Anybody got a feel for what percent of the third-party gear
currently sold to
consumers has sane bufferbloat support in 2020, when we've
*known* that
de-bufferbloated gear is a viable differentiatior if marketed
right (consider the
percent of families that have at least one gamer who cares)?


I don't know percentages, but just trying to find cpe that
support it in their specs is depressingly small. considering
that they're all using linux and queuing discipline software is
ages old, i really don't get what the problem is. it's like
they're being deliberately obtuse. given all of the zoom'ing
happening now you think that somebody would hit them with the
clue-bat that this is a marketing opportunity.

Mike



--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mel Beckman]

It’s not just the lithium load in the environment that is of concern. As early 
as 2018 the US EPA had collected data on the incidence of so-called “hot fires” 
caused by lithium batteries in the waste stream. So far, nobody has been 
killed. But it’s only a matter of time before someone is, given that there are 
no thermal protection measures built into the cells themselves, only into a 
functioning product. But the industry has dismissed self-extinguishing 
batteries as too impactful on weight/performance ratio.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2018-03/documents/timpane_epa_li_slides312_ll_1.pdf

 -mel beckman

On Dec 27, 2020, at 10:23 PM, Mark Tinka  wrote:



On 12/28/20 05:29, Brandon Martin wrote:


Interestingly, the Lithium content is the, in theory, valuable part of it. 
There's not actually much Li in a typical Li-Ion rechargeable battery (much 
less than a Li metal primary cell), but my understanding is that it's enough to 
have people interested considering that we're already basically consuming the 
world's Lithium supply just about as fast as we can economically mine and 
refine it.  However, that may account for the apparently low recyleable content 
of a given battery. By mass and volume, it's mostly electrodes, which are 
common metals, and paper separator which is worthless.

I would imagine that, as "dead" Li-Ion cells become more available and demand 
presumably continues to rise (absent a better battery tech), folks will get 
more serious about recycling the electrolyte.

A lot of the development of Li-Ion batteries has gone into cost reduction. Very 
little of that has been spent on recyclablity. The lack of regulation around 
this hasn't helped either.

However, there are a number of initiatives afoot that may see this improve in 
the next decade. Moreover, the theory is that the nickel, cobalt, manganese and 
lithium available in spent batteries is not unlike highly-enriched ore. If 
these metals can be recycled at scale, it lowers the environmental impact (less 
need to mine natural ores), as well reduce the cost of the new batteries.

It's one area to watch.

For the moment, Li-Ion batteries are not terribly clean from a recyclability 
standpoint. But as renewable storage goes, it's the least of all evils that has 
great potential to be cleaner from ongoing development.

Mark.