Re: Opengear alternatives that support 5g?

[Mel Beckman]

Mike,

Both the Cradlepoint and Teltonica 5G devices are ~$600, even more than the 
PepLink. I’ll compare features, but at first blush the Teltonica at least seems 
to have no VPN support.


-mel via cell

On Apr 26, 2024, at 11:41 PM, Mike Lyon  wrote:


Mel,

My apologies, i confused one mikrotik with another model. You are correct.

I would also check out CradlePoint and Teltonika as well.

Cheers,
Mike

On Apr 26, 2024, at 23:06, Mel Beckman  wrote:


Mike,

Thanks for that info. Alas, I’m not seeing any Mikrotik 5G devices cheaper than 
a ~$500  Peplink. Am I misunderstanding your suggested solution?

 -mel

On Apr 26, 2024, at 9:50 PM, Mike Lyon  wrote:


Peplink is nice, but there are cheaper options: Mikrotik-dot-com

Then for cellular service, sign up for an IOT with an IOT MVNO that bills usage 
based (and can also offer you a static, public, IP address AND will also allow 
you to build a VPN across all of your devices) such as SimBase:  simbase-dot-com



Cheers,
Mike

On Apr 26, 2024, at 21:37, Mel Beckman  wrote:

 I’ve been loooking at the $600 Peplink MAX BR1-MINI (HW3) industrial 5G 
router. It has a 1x embedded 5G modem (Verizon, AT, T-Mobile, and FirstNet). 
three GigE ports, four antenna connectors, and comes with an stick antenna set 
and AC PS.  It uses a nanoSIM. Yes, it’s a pure IP router with no knowledge of 
serial protocols. So I would just put an air console behind it to get to my 
serial ports. I’m still evaluating 5G plans, and Verizon just offered an 
amazing $15 per month unlimited data deal, but it seems to have a 50 gig limit 
before you get to throttling. That might not matter at all with serial traffic 
though.

We've been using the Netgear 4G cellular router, but that’s becoming 
increasingly unreliable. The NG has a nailed up IPsec VPN tunnel, obviating the 
need for a static IP, and the keepalive traffic is low enough that it doesn’t 
cost us much on the 4G network. I’m hoping 5G will be even cheaper and faster.

I’d love to see if anybody found anything better before I spring for a Peplink 
test unit.


 -mel

On Apr 26, 2024, at 9:45 AM, Warren Kumari  wrote:






On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 12:43 AM, Saku Ytti mailto:s...@ytti.fi>> 
wrote:

On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 at 03:11, David H 
mailto:ispcoloh...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Curious if anyone has particular hardware they like for OOB / serial 
management, similar to OpenGear, but preferably with 5G support, maybe even 
T-Mobile support? It’s becoming increasingly difficult to get static IP 4g 
machine accounts out of Verizon, and the added speed would be nice too. Or do 
you separate the serial from the access device (cell+firewall, etc.)?

You could get a 5G Catalyst with an async NIM or SM.

But I think you're setting up yourself for unnecessary costs and failures by 
designing your OOB to require static IP. You could design it so that the OOB 
spokes dial-in to the central OOB hub, and the OOB hub doesn't care what IP 
they come from, using certificates or PSK for identity, instead of IP.


Yup, I agree — but that simply rewrites the question to be:
"Curious if anyone has particular hardware they like for OOB / serial 
management, similar to OpenGear, but preferably with 5G support, which can be a 
spoke that dials in to the central OOB hub, and the OOB hub doesn't care what 
IP they come from, using certificates or PSK for identity, instead of IP."

I've been on the same quest, and I have some additional requests / features. 
Ideally it:

1: would be small - my particular use-case is for a "traveling rack", and so 0U 
is preferred.

2: would be fairly cheap.

3: would not be a Raspberry-Pi, a USB hub and USB-to-serial cables. We tried 
that for a while, and it was clunky — the SD card died a few times (and jumped 
out entirely once!), people kept futzing with the OS and fighting over which 
console software to use, installing other packages, etc.

4: support modern SSH clients (it seems like you shouldn't have to say this, 
but… )

5: actually be designed as a termserver - the current thing we are using 
doesn't really understand terminals, and so we need to use 'socat 
-,raw,echo=0,escape=0x1d TCP::' to get things like 
tab-completion and "up-arrow for last command" to work.

6: support logging of serial (e.g crash-messages) to some sort of log / buffer 
/ similar (it's useful to be able to see what a device barfed all over the 
console when it crashes.


The Get Console Airconsole TS series meets many of these requirements, but it 
doesn't do #6. It also doesn't really feel like they have been updating / 
maintaining these.

Yes, I fully acknowledge that #3 falls into the "Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when 
I do this" camp, but, well…

W

Re: Opengear alternatives that support 5g?

[Mike Lyon]

Mel,My apologies, i confused one mikrotik with another model. You are correct.I would also check out CradlePoint and Teltonika as well. Teltonika Networksteltonika-networks.comCheers,MikeOn Apr 26, 2024, at 23:06, Mel Beckman  wrote:




Mike,




Thanks for that info. Alas, I’m not seeing any Mikrotik 5G devices cheaper than a ~$500  Peplink. Am I misunderstanding your suggested solution? 


 -mel


On Apr 26, 2024, at 9:50 PM, Mike Lyon  wrote:






Peplink is nice, but there are cheaper options: Mikrotik-dot-com







Then for cellular service, sign up for an IOT with an IOT MVNO that bills usage based (and can also offer you a static, public, IP address AND will also allow you to build a VPN across all of your devices) such as SimBase:
  simbase-dot-com









Cheers,
Mike

On Apr 26, 2024, at 21:37, Mel Beckman  wrote:




 I’ve been loooking at the $600 Peplink MAX BR1-MINI (HW3) industrial 5G router. It has a 1x embedded 5G modem (Verizon, AT, T-Mobile, and FirstNet). three GigE ports, four antenna connectors, and comes with an stick antenna set and AC PS.
  It uses a nanoSIM. Yes, it’s a pure IP router with no knowledge of serial protocols. So I would just put an air console behind it to get to my serial ports. I’m still evaluating 5G plans, and Verizon just offered an amazing $15 per month unlimited data deal,
 but it seems to have a 50 gig limit before you get to throttling. That might not matter at all with serial traffic though.


We've been using the Netgear 4G cellular router, but that’s becoming increasingly unreliable. The NG has a nailed up IPsec VPN tunnel, obviating the need for a static IP, and the keepalive traffic is low enough that it doesn’t cost us much on the 4G network.
 I’m hoping 5G will be even cheaper and faster. 


I’d love to see if anybody found anything better before I spring for a Peplink test unit.



 -mel

On Apr 26, 2024, at 9:45 AM, Warren Kumari  wrote:






















On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 12:43 AM, Saku Ytti 
 wrote:



On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 at 03:11, David H  wrote:



Curious if anyone has particular hardware they like for OOB / serial management, similar to OpenGear, but preferably with 5G support, maybe even T-Mobile support? It’s becoming increasingly difficult to get static IP 4g machine accounts out of Verizon,
 and the added speed would be nice too. Or do you separate the serial from the access device (cell+firewall, etc.)?



You could get a 5G Catalyst with an async NIM or SM. 

But I think you're setting up yourself for unnecessary costs and failures by designing your OOB to require static IP. You could design it so that the OOB spokes dial-in to the central OOB hub, and the OOB hub doesn't care what IP they come from,
 using certificates or PSK for identity, instead of IP.













Yup, I agree — but that simply rewrites the question to be:

"Curious if anyone has particular hardware they like for OOB / serial management, similar to OpenGear, but preferably with 5G support, which can be a spoke that dials in to the central OOB hub, and the OOB hub doesn't care what IP they come from, using
 certificates or PSK for identity, instead of IP."



I've been on the same quest, and I have some additional requests / features. Ideally it:



1: would be small - my particular use-case is for a "traveling rack", and so 0U is preferred.



2: would be fairly cheap.



3: would not be a Raspberry-Pi, a USB hub and USB-to-serial cables. We tried that for a while, and it was clunky — the SD card died a few times (and jumped out entirely once!), people kept futzing with the OS and fighting over which console software to
 use, installing other packages, etc.



4: support modern SSH clients (it seems like you shouldn't have to say this, but… )



5: actually be designed as a termserver - the current thing we are using doesn't really understand terminals, and so we need to use 'socat -,raw,echo=0,escape=0x1d TCP::' to get things like tab-completion and "up-arrow for last command"
 to work.



6: support logging of serial (e.g crash-messages) to some sort of log / buffer / similar (it's useful to be able to see what a device barfed all over the console when it crashes. 





The Get Console Airconsole TS series meets many of these requirements, but it doesn't do #6. It also doesn't really feel like they have been updating / maintaining these.



Yes, I fully acknowledge that #3 falls into the "Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when I do this" camp, but, well…



W














-- 
++ytti

Re: Opengear alternatives that support 5g?

[Mike Lyon]

Peplink is nice, but there are cheaper options:MikroTikmikrotik.comThen for cellular service, sign up for an IOT with an IOT MVNO that bills usage based (and can also offer you a static, public, IP address AND will also allow you to build a VPN across all of your devices) such as SimBase: Seamless IoT SIM Card Solutionssimbase.comCheers,MikeOn Apr 26, 2024, at 21:37, Mel Beckman  wrote:




I’ve been loooking at the $600 Peplink MAX BR1-MINI (HW3) industrial 5G router. It has a 1x embedded 5G modem (Verizon, AT, T-Mobile, and FirstNet). three GigE ports, four antenna connectors, and comes with an stick antenna set and AC PS.  It uses a nanoSIM.
 Yes, it’s a pure IP router with no knowledge of serial protocols. So I would just put an air console behind it to get to my serial ports. I’m still evaluating 5G plans, and Verizon just offered an amazing $15 per month unlimited data deal, but it seems to
 have a 50 gig limit before you get to throttling. That might not matter at all with serial traffic though.


We've been using the Netgear 4G cellular router, but that’s becoming increasingly unreliable. The NG has a nailed up IPsec VPN tunnel, obviating the need for a static IP, and the keepalive traffic is low enough that it doesn’t cost us much on the 4G network.
 I’m hoping 5G will be even cheaper and faster. 


I’d love to see if anybody found anything better before I spring for a Peplink test unit.



 -mel

On Apr 26, 2024, at 9:45 AM, Warren Kumari  wrote:






















On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 12:43 AM, Saku Ytti 
 wrote:



On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 at 03:11, David H  wrote:



Curious if anyone has particular hardware they like for OOB / serial management, similar to OpenGear, but preferably with 5G support, maybe even T-Mobile support? It’s becoming increasingly difficult to get static IP 4g machine accounts out of Verizon,
 and the added speed would be nice too. Or do you separate the serial from the access device (cell+firewall, etc.)?



You could get a 5G Catalyst with an async NIM or SM. 

But I think you're setting up yourself for unnecessary costs and failures by designing your OOB to require static IP. You could design it so that the OOB spokes dial-in to the central OOB hub, and the OOB hub doesn't care what IP they come from,
 using certificates or PSK for identity, instead of IP.













Yup, I agree — but that simply rewrites the question to be:

"Curious if anyone has particular hardware they like for OOB / serial management, similar to OpenGear, but preferably with 5G support, which can be a spoke that dials in to the central OOB hub, and the OOB hub doesn't care what IP they come from, using
 certificates or PSK for identity, instead of IP."



I've been on the same quest, and I have some additional requests / features. Ideally it:



1: would be small - my particular use-case is for a "traveling rack", and so 0U is preferred.



2: would be fairly cheap.



3: would not be a Raspberry-Pi, a USB hub and USB-to-serial cables. We tried that for a while, and it was clunky — the SD card died a few times (and jumped out entirely once!), people kept futzing with the OS and fighting over which console software to
 use, installing other packages, etc.



4: support modern SSH clients (it seems like you shouldn't have to say this, but… )



5: actually be designed as a termserver - the current thing we are using doesn't really understand terminals, and so we need to use 'socat -,raw,echo=0,escape=0x1d TCP::' to get things like tab-completion and "up-arrow for last command"
 to work.



6: support logging of serial (e.g crash-messages) to some sort of log / buffer / similar (it's useful to be able to see what a device barfed all over the console when it crashes. 





The Get Console Airconsole TS series meets many of these requirements, but it doesn't do #6. It also doesn't really feel like they have been updating / maintaining these.



Yes, I fully acknowledge that #3 falls into the "Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when I do this" camp, but, well…



W














-- 
++ytti

Re: Opengear alternatives that support 5g?

[Mel Beckman]

Quite often I’m looking for OOBM at antenna sites or in remote DCs where there 
is no Plan B carrier. Cellular has always been the goto choice for this, but we 
keep getting pushed out of contracts by technology upgrades. 2g, then 3g, and  
next 4g LTE are being deprecated.

The main reason for network shutdowns is that the carriers have limited 
spectrum available for expansion. To deliver faster, more cost effective data 
service to customers, carriers must re-use existing spectrum licenses with 
newer, more efficient cellular technology. Old 2G/3G infrastructure makes way 
for new networks, and older cellular devices must be retired. 4g may have a 
decade left before complete absence, but its footprint is already shrinking 
where 5G is available.

I’ve seen this first hand with 4g cellular alarm circuits: suddenly they get 
less reliable or fail completely, and the reason always turns out to be 
degraded RSSI due to 5G deployment.

So 5G is imperative for cellular OOBM, hence the hunt for COTS drop-in 
replacements that won’t break the bank. Upgrading, for example, 100 antenna 
sites is also a major truck roll cost, so we want to get it right the first 
time.  Physical space and power limitations usually rule out 1U rackmount 
refurb Cisco terminal servers, which is why we need 0U gear. Yes, I can cobble 
together a raspberry pi and some hats and cables and dingles and dangles and 
make a science fair solution. But I need something that is commercially 
supported, won’t have me scratching my head later about what version of the 
Ubuntu is going to work, and won’t randomly fry its electronics during a power 
surge.

It’s looking like that solution is firmly priced at ~$500 today. 

 -mel

> On Apr 27, 2024, at 4:59 AM, Mark Tinka  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 4/27/24 07:56, Saku Ytti wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>  For me Cisco is great here, because it's something an organisation
>> already knows how to source, turn-up, upgrade, troubleshoot, maintain.
>> And you get a broad set of features you might want, IPSEC, DMVPN, BGP,
>> ISIS, and so forth.
> 
> I tend to agree.
> 
> Cisco do this very well, and if you are really low on cash and okay with 
> acquiring these on the cheap, the open market has tons of deals and options 
> from Cisco that have matured over the decades.
> 
> 
> 
>> I keep wondering why everyone is so focused on OOB hardware cost, when
>> in my experience the ethernet connection is ~200-300USD (150USD can be
>> just xconn) MRC. So in 10 years, you'll pay 24k to 36k just for the
>> OOB WAN, masking the hardware price. And 10years, to me, doesn't sound
>> even particularly long a time for a console setup.
> 
> Is a 10Mbps DIA link going for US$200 - US$300 MRC nowadays, excluding the 
> x-connect? I'd have though it's now in US$100 range at the very worst.
> 
> Or are you looking at an OoB link of more than 10Mbps?
> 
> Mark.

Re: Opengear alternatives that support 5g?

[Mark Tinka]

On 4/27/24 07:56, Saku Ytti wrote:


For me Cisco is great here, because it's something an organisation
already knows how to source, turn-up, upgrade, troubleshoot, maintain.
And you get a broad set of features you might want, IPSEC, DMVPN, BGP,
ISIS, and so forth.


I tend to agree.

Cisco do this very well, and if you are really low on cash and okay with 
acquiring these on the cheap, the open market has tons of deals and 
options from Cisco that have matured over the decades.



I keep wondering why everyone is so focused on OOB hardware cost, when
in my experience the ethernet connection is ~200-300USD (150USD can be
just xconn) MRC. So in 10 years, you'll pay 24k to 36k just for the
OOB WAN, masking the hardware price. And 10years, to me, doesn't sound
even particularly long a time for a console setup.


Is a 10Mbps DIA link going for US$200 - US$300 MRC nowadays, excluding 
the x-connect? I'd have though it's now in US$100 range at the very worst.


Or are you looking at an OoB link of more than 10Mbps?

Mark.

Re: Opengear alternatives that support 5g?

[Mel Beckman]

Mike,

Thanks for that info. Alas, I’m not seeing any Mikrotik 5G devices cheaper than 
a ~$500  Peplink. Am I misunderstanding your suggested solution?

 -mel

On Apr 26, 2024, at 9:50 PM, Mike Lyon  wrote:


Peplink is nice, but there are cheaper options: Mikrotik-dot-com

Then for cellular service, sign up for an IOT with an IOT MVNO that bills usage 
based (and can also offer you a static, public, IP address AND will also allow 
you to build a VPN across all of your devices) such as SimBase:  simbase-dot-com



Cheers,
Mike

On Apr 26, 2024, at 21:37, Mel Beckman  wrote:

 I’ve been loooking at the $600 Peplink MAX BR1-MINI (HW3) industrial 5G 
router. It has a 1x embedded 5G modem (Verizon, AT, T-Mobile, and FirstNet). 
three GigE ports, four antenna connectors, and comes with an stick antenna set 
and AC PS.  It uses a nanoSIM. Yes, it’s a pure IP router with no knowledge of 
serial protocols. So I would just put an air console behind it to get to my 
serial ports. I’m still evaluating 5G plans, and Verizon just offered an 
amazing $15 per month unlimited data deal, but it seems to have a 50 gig limit 
before you get to throttling. That might not matter at all with serial traffic 
though.

We've been using the Netgear 4G cellular router, but that’s becoming 
increasingly unreliable. The NG has a nailed up IPsec VPN tunnel, obviating the 
need for a static IP, and the keepalive traffic is low enough that it doesn’t 
cost us much on the 4G network. I’m hoping 5G will be even cheaper and faster.

I’d love to see if anybody found anything better before I spring for a Peplink 
test unit.


 -mel

On Apr 26, 2024, at 9:45 AM, Warren Kumari  wrote:






On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 12:43 AM, Saku Ytti mailto:s...@ytti.fi>> 
wrote:

On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 at 03:11, David H 
mailto:ispcoloh...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Curious if anyone has particular hardware they like for OOB / serial 
management, similar to OpenGear, but preferably with 5G support, maybe even 
T-Mobile support? It’s becoming increasingly difficult to get static IP 4g 
machine accounts out of Verizon, and the added speed would be nice too. Or do 
you separate the serial from the access device (cell+firewall, etc.)?

You could get a 5G Catalyst with an async NIM or SM.

But I think you're setting up yourself for unnecessary costs and failures by 
designing your OOB to require static IP. You could design it so that the OOB 
spokes dial-in to the central OOB hub, and the OOB hub doesn't care what IP 
they come from, using certificates or PSK for identity, instead of IP.


Yup, I agree — but that simply rewrites the question to be:
"Curious if anyone has particular hardware they like for OOB / serial 
management, similar to OpenGear, but preferably with 5G support, which can be a 
spoke that dials in to the central OOB hub, and the OOB hub doesn't care what 
IP they come from, using certificates or PSK for identity, instead of IP."

I've been on the same quest, and I have some additional requests / features. 
Ideally it:

1: would be small - my particular use-case is for a "traveling rack", and so 0U 
is preferred.

2: would be fairly cheap.

3: would not be a Raspberry-Pi, a USB hub and USB-to-serial cables. We tried 
that for a while, and it was clunky — the SD card died a few times (and jumped 
out entirely once!), people kept futzing with the OS and fighting over which 
console software to use, installing other packages, etc.

4: support modern SSH clients (it seems like you shouldn't have to say this, 
but… )

5: actually be designed as a termserver - the current thing we are using 
doesn't really understand terminals, and so we need to use 'socat 
-,raw,echo=0,escape=0x1d TCP::' to get things like 
tab-completion and "up-arrow for last command" to work.

6: support logging of serial (e.g crash-messages) to some sort of log / buffer 
/ similar (it's useful to be able to see what a device barfed all over the 
console when it crashes.


The Get Console Airconsole TS series meets many of these requirements, but it 
doesn't do #6. It also doesn't really feel like they have been updating / 
maintaining these.

Yes, I fully acknowledge that #3 falls into the "Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when 
I do this" camp, but, well…

W




--
++ytti