On 08/23/2010 07:40 AM, Scott Berkman wrote:
Are you looking only at Open Source tools? If not you are missing all of
the most widely deployed tools out there (including):
You will also need to look at separate security monitoring software if your
goal is to cover that. Not including any
Check out the openbts and tier wireless projects.
Georges-Keny PAUL paulgk...@gmail.com wrote:
Hello all,
My team is working on technical and technological specifications of a
document for the deployment of Internet service on public frequencies in
rural areas. We welcome your thoughts on the
One would need to know a lot more about the specifics of your requirements.
My suggestion would be to invest money in qualified people to watch over
something like opennms or (my favorite) a combination of alienvault and
opsview.
Eric Gauthier e...@roxanne.org wrote:
Heya,
I'm trying to
Check out cradlepoint. Doesn't have all the features you want, but will
do wifi/3g/ethernet as wan options. Not sure if it load balances between
them though. Also check out pfsense. That's what I am currently running.
On 11/11/2010 05:54 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
And does this take
On 11/12/2010 01:24 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 05:41:00PM -0800, Leo Bicknell wrote:
I've run into a number of low end CPE situations lately where I
haven't found anything that does what I want, but I have to believe
it is out there. I'm hoping NANOG can help.
An ALIX with
On 11/9/2010 2:38 PM, Brandon Kim wrote:
Thanks everyone for your input today on this topic. I wanted to recap with a
list of sites that everyone has suggested
both online and offline for FYI purposes.
http://www.microsoft.com/systemcenter/en/us/default.aspx
I haven't used system center,
On 11/12/2010 12:09 PM, Robert Brockway wrote:
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Charles N Wyble wrote:
I use Proxmox exclusively and am very happy with it. It's a great
product. You might need to do a bit of CLI work if you want to
support multiple VLANS or other slightly advanced features. I'm lazy
within state
24 hours a day, 7 days a week
It's amazing how many people don't know about 611. It's the fastest way
to reach clued/capable of paging clued people.
- --
Charles N Wyble (char...@knownelement.com)
Systems craftsman for the stars
http://www.knownelement.com
Mobile: 626 539 4344
to be the realm of service providers to do so.
Can anyone enlighten me as to why a RIR is operating an IRR database? It
doesn't make sense to me.
- --
Charles N Wyble (char...@knownelement.com)
Systems craftsman for the stars
http://www.knownelement.com
Mobile: 626 539 4344
Office: 310 929 8793
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on why this is the case? Was this requested by
the community, or driven internally? Or both?
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Charles N Wyble (char...@knownelement.com)
Systems craftsman for the stars
http://www.knownelement.com
Mobile: 626 539 4344
Office: 310 929 8793
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pfsense in redundant pair for routing/security/vlan termination
cisco all the way for l2 switching
On 01/10/2011 09:38 AM, James Smith wrote:
All the places I've worked in the past decade have been all Cisco shops for
routing and switching, with a
plugin) must
be able to monitor server availability (for example by TCP connect) and from
DNS-reply depends on it.
I know that it is possible by BIND with set of script. But we are trying to
find more usable solution with frendly interface.
Thanks a lot.
- --
Charles N Wyble (char
) must
be able to monitor server availability (for example by TCP connect)
and from
DNS-reply depends on it.
On Tue, 18 Jan 2011, Charles N Wyble wrote:
Ha-proxy and linux virtual server are popular packages.
Neither of these do DNS.
What does that mean? Load balance DNS lookups across
with static IP address for $50
(USD) monthly, or less if you opt for the low-bandwidth plan.
+1 for the clear stuff. I've spent the last couple of weeks doing
extensive 3g/4g testing, and been incredibly impressed with Clear. (I'm
doing video conferencing over it).
- --
Charles N Wyble (char
On 1/24/2011 8:52 PM, Roland Dobbins wrote:
On Jan 25, 2011, at 11:35 AM, Christopher Morrow wrote:
thinking of using DNS is tempting
The main arguments I see against it are:
2. The generally creaky, fragile, brittle, non-scalable state of the
overall DNS infrastructure in general.
:)
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Charles N Wyble (char...@knownelement.com)
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http://www.knownelement.com
Mobile: 626 539 4344
Office: 310 929 8793
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.
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Charles N Wyble (char...@knownelement.com)
Systems craftsman for the stars
http://www.knownelement.com
Mobile: 626 539 4344
Office: 310 929 8793
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On 01/26/2011 01:50 PM, Randy McAnally wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:22:40 -0800, Charles N Wyble wrote
For the most part, I'm a data center/application
administrator/content provider kind of guy. As such, I want to
provide all my web content
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On 01/26/2011 01:52 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
Is anyone tracking the major consumer/business class access networks
delivery of ipv6 in North America?
I'm on ATT DSL. It looks like they want to use 6rd? I've only briefly
looked into 6rd
.
This presumes people have long distance plans.
And there's always static routes :)
To what? If everyone has dropped BGP sessions how are you as an end user
going to setup static routes? Unless there are no firewalls and
everything is wide open how would you reach gateways?
- --
Charles N Wyble (char
system is still working. You can move a lot of email by dialup
UUCP if you wanted to.
I wonder if anyone's working on a mesh or p-t-p radio app that runs on a
smartphone?
Yes.
http://www.servalproject.org/
- --
Charles N Wyble (char...@knownelement.com)
Systems craftsman for the stars
On 2/3/2011 7:43 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
An armed FBI special agent shows up at your facility and tells your ranking
manager to shut down the Internet.
Let's look at this from a different perspective. What level of
impairment would the feds face if they ordered wide spread
net shut downs. Do
do a separate ipv6 for datacenter/application operators
presentation at some point in Q2. I know there will be one at SCALE this
year, by one of our frequent v6 posters. :)
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Charles N Wyble (char...@knownelement.com)
Systems craftsman for the stars
http://www.knownelement.com
Mobile: 626 539
of whether it's dns or global
load balancers. We'll see v6 adoption skyrocket overnight. ;)
http://test-ipv6.com/ is a good start for basic sanity checks. I need to
get my v6 content provider stuff done and write up a blog post and/or do
a presentation. Soon
- --
Charles N Wyble (char
prefer to
have ubuntu). (before you sneer at me, i've been using linux for almost
15 years, and want something that just works :)
- --
Charles N Wyble (char...@knownelement.com)
Systems craftsman for the stars
http://www.knownelement.com
Mobile: 626 539 4344
Office: 310 929 8793
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On 3/24/2011 10:34 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
On Mar 24, 2011, at 7:27 PM, Ravi Ramaswamy wrote:
Tier 1 ISP is a nebulous term.
Indeed it is. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peering and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_network for more information. I'm
guessing you are using Tier 1
Zenoss works very well as a cmdb.
George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 7:48 PM, Jimmy Hess mysi...@gmail.com wrote:
...
But is there a decently scalable open source application for building
a CMDB, that is visually appealing and efficient for humans to
I have a Cyclades acs-48 console server. Direct power and Ethernet drop from
the ceiling with a public ip. In my subnet, but not through my routers/switches
or pdus. Completely out of band, except for relying on colo power/net, which if
that's not up then oob is worthless to me anyway.
I have
does
commercial terms of their broadband services.
mean?
Peering arrangements? Transit pricing?
--
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Building alternative,global scale,secure, cost effective bit moving platform
for tomorrows alternate
at 07:10:10PM -0700, Joel jaeggli wrote:
--
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Building alternative,global scale,secure, cost effective bit moving platform
for tomorrows alternate default free zone.
On 10/10/2011 10:04 AM, James M Keller wrote:
On 10/10/2011 11:01 AM, James M Keller wrote:
All,
I'm looking for some mailing list recommendations for wifi operations
community, any commendations?
Checkout wispa.org
Let us know what you decide to subscribe to.
to date.
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Building alternative,global scale,secure, cost effective bit moving platform
for tomorrows alternate default free zone.
On 11/01/2011 02:38 AM, Babak Farrokhi wrote:
Hi,
I would suggest you use the element management software provided by your
vendor. But you may want to take a look at www.ziptie.org for an alternative.
Also nocproject.org
presentations based on.the frequency or content os the
logs.
Thank you
Joshua
--
Sent from my Nokia N9
--
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Building a cost effective, open, secure bit moving platform for tomorrows
default free zone.
On 03/20/2012 09:54 AM, Jeroen Massar wrote:
On 2012-03-20 15:40 , vinny_abe...@dell.com wrote:
For everybody who is monitoring other people's websites, please please
please, monitor something static like /robots.txt as that can be
statically served and is kinda appropriate as it is intended
So I came across this post the other day and wanted to see what folks
think about it.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/109418153881180057361/posts/AvjZbbK6T7X
Here is the relevant portion:
*Got anything more specific than that to go on?*
Actually, yes. Although I still want community feedback on
On 04/11/2012 02:34 PM, Seth Mos wrote:
I'm getting about 40mbit through the IPv6 tunnel, so i'd say it works well,
although the throughput has slowly been dropping to the 30's range over the
last 6 months. But that's probably because of the latency.
For something that is provided for
a network test bed and having full BGP tables is a part of my
testing.
When I figure it out I'll post to the list unless its figured out before
then.
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could decide to never leave the
announce phase.
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Charles N Wyble
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(818)280-7059 char...@knownelement.com
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Jared Mauch wrote:
I think it's great!
I've been preparing to float a similar idea locally.
If this is how they use their market cap, I would love for them to do it in
my local market, which does seem to hold a near-and-dear place in the
request is pretty vague :)
What geographic area? What type (sea? land?) etc etc.
There are a few companies who sell this data as well. After 9/11 it got
really hard, but judicious use of search engines will find most stuff.
- --
Charles N Wyble
Linux Systems Engineer
char...@knownelement.com
http
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Jared Mauch wrote:
On Feb 10, 2010, at 4:57 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
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Jared Mauch wrote:
I think it's great!
I've been preparing to float a similar idea locally.
If this is how they use
announced a v6 beta, and impulse.net for folks in the SoCal region. Not
sure of any other CLEC types offering v6, but if you are speak up!
I guess the phrase innovate/catch up or get run over applies here. :)
- --
Charles N Wyble
Linux Systems Engineer
char...@knownelement.com
http://www.knownelement.com
quick. :) Ideally the more we can
stave off issues through proactive testing/fixing the better.
- --
Charles N Wyble
Linux Systems Engineer
char...@knownelement.com (818)280-7059
http://www.knownelement.com
Unless agreed upon, assume everything in this e-mail might be blogged.
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Tony Finch wrote:
On Mon, 15 Feb 2010, Charles N Wyble wrote:
How are folks verifying DNSSEC readiness of their environments? Any
existing testing methodologies / resources that folks are using?
Here's my summary of the situation (as of a couple
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Florian Weimer wrote:
* Charles N. Wyble:
It seems like this is something that will become a front and center
issue for help desks everywhere pretty quick. :)
Why do you think so? Would you even notice if your webmail provider
switches
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Mark Andrews wrote:
In message 4b798f1e.6080...@knownelement.com, Charles N Wyble writes:
All,
How are folks verifying DNSSEC readiness of their environments? Any
existing testing methodologies / resources that folks are using?
It seems like
to the interwebz. There is a lot of
fiber in the ground already, but there are numerous layer 8 issues with
getting to it most of the time. Solving those is an exercise left for
the reader.
- --
Charles N Wyble
Linux Systems Engineer
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http://www.knownelement.com
Guillaume FORTAINE wrote:
Misters,
No comments ?
http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.loud-fat-bloke.co.uk/obeseus2.pdf
http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/F012Interoute121109.pdf
http://barometer.interoute.com/barom_main.php
The paper is
bit gossip wrote:
Nessus is a vulnerability scanner:
http://www.nessus.org/nessus/
Ixia provides a full Nessus implementation in one of its platform.
Well these days I would use http://www.openvas.org and
http://www.metasploit.org
for vulnerability scanning and analysis.
However that
On 03/22/2010 10:24 AM, Andrews Carl 448 wrote:
I need to setup an OpenLDAP server for proxy authentication to Microsoft
Active Directory. From what I have been able to determine this is
completely possible but I am missing something. I have the O'Reilly LDAP
book but it was written several
Hopefully this e-mail is considered operational content :)
The recent thread on the new linkys kit and ipv6 support got me thinking
about CPE choice.
What good off the shelf solutions are out there? Should one buy the high
end d-link/linksys/netgear products? I've had bad experiences with
On 03/31/2010 05:04 PM, Nick Hilliard wrote:
On 31/03/2010 23:55, Charles N Wyble wrote:
Some people have said that the Fritz!box is quite good. No idea if
it's approved for use in the US.
Nick,
Thanks for posting this. I wasn't aware of this product. It looks pretty
cool.
On 03/31/2010 04:03 PM, Jack Carrozzo wrote:
Given a marked lack of $significant funding for home routing, I rock
BSD boxen all over.
Cool. I'm looking at pfsense to replace my cisco. I want to move the
router to my lab for CCIE studies.
Have you tried pfsense, or do you find the built in
On 03/31/2010 04:03 PM, Joe Johnson wrote:
I have a small HP dummy terminal I installed a CFIDE card in with m0n0wall that
has run beautifully for the past 3 years.
No moving parts I take it? I think I've played with m0n0wall in the past.
Barely has any power draw and cost me a whopping
On 03/31/2010 04:07 PM, William Warren wrote:
I run Astaro on a p-4 celey i had lying around. Get far more than any
little router you'll see..can't beat the price.
Astaro looks cool. I hadn't heard of it before. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you everyone for your replies! :) It's been great having an
operational type discussion.
Here is my summary of the thread:
Software:
Linux:
Vyatta
IPCop
Astaro
BSD:
pfSense
m0n0wall (I didn't know this was the base for pfSense until I started
researching it today)
Appliances:
Hmmm... it is 2pm on a Friday afternoon. I guess it's the appropriate
time for this thread.
*grabs popcorn and sits back to watch the fun*
http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2011/Aug/76
Wondering what folks think about this? If this was true then we just
entered a whole new era of mass WAN exploitation.
Off list replies welcome. Rock and roll folks.
Hey folks,
Been months since I've graced the NANOG list. Been a busy year so far.
I see the same exact v6 threads going on as when I left. LOL. Like a
forest fire that won't die. :) Go Owen and your band of merry men! And
OSPF vs ISIS. Glad to see nothing has changed.
I have a few threads
All,
Related to my thread about home data centers, what are folks using to
store compute gear in?
Mine sits in two racks in my second bedroom. Cooled by ambient AC.
Has anyone built a dedicated room? What resources did you use to do so?
Are their any standards to reference etc?
On 08/12/2011 08:52 PM, Coy Hile wrote:
Damn, and people claim I'm nuts!
You know, you could go whole hog and multihome.
See I read that as having multiple homes. Not multiple feeds. LOL.
On 08/12/2011 09:17 PM, Joe Greco wrote:
What nobody wired their abode with fiber ?
Am i the only one here
I ran a bunch of fiber from the telco rack
What's in the telco rack? This is in your house? What's on it?
to the server rack to reduce
the risk of damage to expensive servers ...
On 08/12/2011 10:08 PM, Eric Krichbaum wrote:
I have a 12 pack of single mode run between wiring closets upstairs and
downstairs.
Nice. I can't wait to get my next house and be able to say exactly that
phrase. LOL.
Only one server running feeding media to my xbmc's everywhere
but quite a
On 08/12/2011 09:02 PM, J wrote:
Charles N Wyble wrote:
All,
Old IBM 32U cabinet in the unfinished basement, half a dozen older IBM
x-series and NAS, Cisco 2950/3550, old terminal server, UPS (have to
upgrade), bix patch panel, etc.
Nice.
I currently lack a patch panel. I think I have one
On 08/12/2011 07:49 PM, Alex Rubenstein wrote:
I am in the process of building a house.
Cool. Will you have wire closets? What about home audio? Security?
I designed a room that can accommodate three 24 x 36 inch cabinets or four
post racks.
Downstairs? Basement?
I will likely install a
On 08/12/2011 08:53 PM, Alex Rubenstein wrote:
.
Trust me, if I could, I would certainly do dark to my house.
The last house I was in, was 500 feet from ATT fiber and easy walking
distance to the CO. My sister in law lives there now. I'm considering
putting a rack or two in the garage for
On 08/13/2011 01:20 AM, Jari Arkko wrote:
13.8.2011 3:18, Charles N Wyble kirjoitti:
All,
Related to my thread about home data centers, what are folks using to
store compute gear in?
Mine sits in two racks in my second bedroom. Cooled by ambient AC.
Mine sits in a small room / closet
On 08/12/2011 10:56 PM, radhouan.all...@gmail.com wrote:
Check the ccnsp book. They have I think what you looking for.
Not sure what that is. Did some quick searching. Can you provide a bit
more detail?
*Cc:* nanog@nanog.org; Charles N Wyble
*Subject:* RE: Verizon Business - LTE?
On Aug 12, 2011 8:40 PM, Ryan Finnesey rfinne...@gmail.com
mailto:rfinne...@gmail.com wrote:
Well they are two completely separate companies . I would think
that the
LTE network would be a good replacement
On 08/13/2011 01:09 PM, chris wrote:
I'm in princeton, nj and I recently moved into a new place and had no
internet for about a week and had my router in client mode grabbing hotspot
from my phone and it worked surprisingly well. Of course latency can be a
bit jumpy but my speeds overall were
On 08/13/2011 11:52 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
The two problems I have with Clear is that it does not work well indoors
Oh? The dongle you mean? Yes. The dongle is complete garbage. The
Motorolla CPE has been top notch. Tried it various places in my
apartment (near window, not near window).
On 08/13/2011 11:56 PM, Tammy A. Wisdom wrote:
Clear is an absolutely horrible ISP.
I've heard people say that. I've used them heavily in Los Angeles and
Austin for over a year (almost two now actually). Never had a problem.
It is quite common for it to go in and out
Probably in fringe
it w/ a plastic doorway like you see in big grocery freezers.
The plastic made it easier to get in/out with gear without scratching
up the house and it also helps mute out some of the fan-noise.
Excellent idea. Do you have a ramp of some sort to bring gear in?
--
Charles N Wyble char
-zipping-up
Hah
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Charles N Wyble char...@knownelement.com @charlesnw on twitter
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Building alternative,global scale,secure, cost effective bit moving platform
for tomorrows alternate default free zone.
to respond to that
soon. That's pretty operational.
I've always wondered if the next cisco/juniper 0 day will be delivered
via a set of exploits delivered via a link posted to NANOG. :) Maybe
I'll do a talk at DEFCON next year about that.
Fun.
Precisely!
--
Charles N Wyble char
On 08/14/2011 07:43 PM, Tim Wilde wrote:
On 8/14/2011 8:36 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
Yes, they prove that IPv6 is not a viable technology as it currently
stands and we should be working on the next big thing, of course!
IPv42, here I come!
:)
It certainly is being debated back and forth
On 08/15/2011 10:31 AM, Steven Bellovin wrote:
On Aug 15, 2011, at 10:12 21AM, Randy Bush wrote:
I've always wondered if the next cisco/juniper 0 day will be delivered
via a set of exploits delivered via a link posted to NANOG. :) Maybe
I'll do a talk at DEFCON next year about that.
more
say is about 10 years
late, 5 years too late.
Yeah. Building ones own network is a bit... difficult. At least to serve
on a competitive basis.
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Building alternative,global scale,secure, cost
On 08/16/2011 11:46 AM, harbor235 wrote:
Anyone been involved with TDM voice DOS attacks? My thoughts are that if the
phone
call originates as an IP call somewhere in the wild, then typical abuse
security incident notifications may help
in the interim.
Indeed. Though I suppose it depends on
On 08/16/2011 03:28 PM, William Warren wrote:
On 8/12/2011 7:28 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
Hey all,
I have one rack of stuff..:)
Not Enough! We will be removing you now from the list that is. :)
I then have my tower(custom build) and ups on another shelf.
What kind of UPS? Seems most
sorting out a backblaze
account and using Randy's fantastic sync thing that he mentioned. I really do
not want 18 months of research to vanish.
Indeed.
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Building alternative,global scale,secure
On 08/26/2011 09:51 PM, Scott Morris wrote:
Did you have backup tomatoes?
Indeed. Multi gardening is all the rage.
Can't be too safe.
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Charles N Wyble char...@knownelement.com @charlesnw on twitter
http://blog.knownelement.com
Building alternative,global scale,secure, cost effective bit
.
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Charles N Wyble char...@knownelement.com @charlesnw on twitter
http://blog.knownelement.com
Building alternative,global scale,secure, cost effective bit moving platform
for tomorrows alternate default free zone.
Wow this turned into a very long post
On 09/16/2011 01:10 PM, hass...@hushmail.com wrote:
No one replied with any useful information. I guess no one wants
competition on this list? Pretty poor tactic.
On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 21:55:01 -0400 hass...@hushmail.com wrote:
Mr
On 09/16/2011 02:58 PM, Leigh Porter wrote:
-Original Message-
From: Charles N Wyble [mailto:char...@knownelement.com]
Sent: 16 September 2011 20:47
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: wet-behind-the-ears whippersnapper seeking advice on building
a nationwide network
Wow this turned
to attract customers. Plus if you can only compete on price, the
established players will just cut costs to match you.
That's all my opinion of course.
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http://blog.knownelement.com
Building alternative,global scale,secure, cost
.
I shall have to do that then.
--
Charles N Wyble char...@knownelement.com @charlesnw on twitter
http://blog.knownelement.com
Building alternative,global scale,secure, cost effective bit moving platform
for tomorrows alternate default free zone.
Does whois have a bug tracker somewhere? That seems to be the place to
file these sort of things.
On 09/17/2011 01:19 PM, John Curran wrote:
On Sep 16, 2011, at 3:45 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote:
2) Obtain ipv6 space from ARIN (inquired about getting space and ran into some
issues. need to speak with my co founder and get details. evidently getting
brand new v6 space for a brand new network
waiting on an LOA from my buddy and I should be able to get that ASN and
associated /32.
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Building alternative,global scale,secure, cost effective bit moving platform
for tomorrows alternate default free
the clarification of policy and relevant docs etc.
Seems really straightforward to me now.
Now let's get back to technical / nuts and bolts discussion of building
an ISP shall we?
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Building alternative
thinking. :)
I don't plan on requesting any v4 space from ARIN. Just using provider
space for the small v4 traffic needs.
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Building alternative,global scale,secure, cost effective bit moving platform
I plan to announce my ASN out of 3 physically diverse hops over 100mbps
or gige. I believe that qualifies as multihoming under pretty much all
definitions?
On that note, is anyone familiar with peering fabrics in 60 Hudson and
600 West 7th (or peering fabrics that are fiber close in those
On 09/21/2011 06:14 PM, Andreas Echavez wrote:
btw, you guys might find
PacketShaderhttp://shader.kaist.edu/packetshader/a pretty
interesting concept
-Andreas
Excellent! I was wondering how far along this was. Good to see. Very
exciting.
I've got a couple parallel systems sitting around
My apologies to all. I was hoping the conversation would be of an
operational nature.
I deleted the vast majority of messages in the thread as they weren't
relevant.
If anyone wants I can post smaller scope subject threads. Or a summary
of the operationally relevant bits in the thread.
On 09/22/2011 05:37 AM, Pierce Lynch wrote:
Andreas Echavez [mailto:andr...@livejournalinc.com] originally wrote:
Ultimately, the network is as reliable as you build it. With software, it's
much cheaper to divide and scale horizontally. Hardware devices are expensive
and usually horizontal
I just use SSH to ip:portnum . Used the web ui for initial setup. Never used an
applet. Didn't know one existed.
This is on an acs48 model. I forget the pdu model (cyclades i something), they
just daisychain off the acs and you can hit a key combo to powercycle.
david peahi
Not sure how bsd handles ipip connections. If it breaks them out as a dedicated
interface (like it does for openvpn connections) , then rules can be applied
and pfsense would be quite useful. The UI is very simple.
Warren Bailey wbai...@satelliteintelligencegroup.com wrote:
Look into pfsense.
If you are OK with USB ether net for one interface, check out the tplink
wr703n. Its powered via USB, has a USB and rj45 jack. Runs OpenWrt.
Leo Bicknell bickn...@ufp.org wrote:
On Aug 15, 2013, at 9:18 PM, Brandon Martin lists.na...@monmotha.net
wrote:
As to why people wouldn't put them
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