On 03/19/2014 06:33 PM, Rob Seastrom wrote:
It's not the conductor that you're derating; it's the breaker. Per NEC
Table 310.16, ampacity of #12 copper THHN/THWN2 (which is almost
certainly what you're pulling) with 3 conductors in a conduit is 30
amps. Refer to Table 310.15(B)(2)(a) for
Lamar Owen lo...@pari.edu writes:
Actually, there is no NEC 384.16 any more, at least in the 2011 code.
Guilty. I reflexively reached for my 2008 copy since that's the code
of record here where I live. Glad we're not on 2011, wish we were
still on 2005; a lot of stupidity has crept in since
On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 4:00 PM, Rob Seastrom r...@seastrom.com wrote:
Lamar Owen lo...@pari.edu writes:
Actually, there is no NEC 384.16 any more, at least in the 2011 code.
Guilty. I reflexively reached for my 2008 copy since that's the code
of record here where I live. Glad we're not
Is it too late to demand code be in open Github repos with changes
tracked at no cost?
On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 12:12 PM, Gary Buhrmaster
gary.buhrmas...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 3:05 PM, Lamar Owen lo...@pari.edu wrote:
.
Tracking code changes fuels an entire industry, and
On 03/20/2014 12:27 PM, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:
Think of the children! I hear the 2017 edition of NFPA 70 (aka NEC)
may require one to turn off the power to the entire household in order
to plug in a coffee maker to minimize potential arc flash hazard
(just kidding). Gary
ROTFL.
No,
On 3/18/14 3:54 PM, George Herbert wrote:
This sort of thing is usually an adapter, a little cylinder with a L6-20R
on one end and a L6-30P on the other, since the loads are safe. Either
that, or a short jumper cable wired the same way.
The loads aren't safe. You will have a 30-amp circuit
On Mar 20, 2014, at 4:52 PM, Jay Hennigan j...@west.net wrote:
On 3/18/14 3:54 PM, George Herbert wrote:
This sort of thing is usually an adapter, a little cylinder with a L6-20R
on one end and a L6-30P on the other, since the loads are safe. Either
that, or a short jumper cable wired the
Alex Rubenstein a...@corp.nac.net writes:
Go look at any standard household lamp. It has a 5-15P on the end of
it, which could be plugged into an outlet rated for 20 amps (5-20R),
with 16 gauge lamp cord rated for 10 amps or less.
Mine all seem to be NEMA 1-15P, some (most?) with 18 AWG
Go look at any standard household lamp. It has a 5-15P on the end of
it, which could be plugged into an outlet rated for 20 amps (5-20R),
with 16 gauge lamp cord rated for 10 amps or less.
Mine all seem to be NEMA 1-15P, some (most?) with 18 AWG wire.
Have I been shortchanged? :)
I
On 03/18/2014 09:39 PM, William Herrin wrote:
Meh. It depends. Plug that 30 amp power strip into a 20 amp circuit.
Try to use more than 20 amps and the main breaker trips. No problem.
Plug that 20 amp power strip into a 30 amp circuit. Try to use more
than 20 amps and the strip's breaker
Alex Rubenstein a...@corp.nac.net writes:
But my point remains. Appliance/load wire size is often, and many
times smaller than the ampacity of the circuit.
Heck, how many times have you plugged in a 14 gauge extension cord
to a 5-20R?
I do this all the time. In (all our) defense, lamp
On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 07:09:49PM -0400, David Hubbard wrote:
I've had to do that before; provider gave me a 208v/30a circuit and I
already had a power strip I wanted to re-use that had a corded L6-20P
connector on it. I purchased a L6-30P plug / L6-20R receptacle adapter
from
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Lamar Owen lo...@pari.edu wrote:
2011 NEC article 210.23(A) permits 15A receptacles on 20A branch circuits;
30A branch circuits must use 30A receptacles. If the OP's 30A branch
circuit has an L6-20R on it then this would be a violation; see NEC Table
210.24
On 03/19/2014 09:51 AM, William Herrin wrote:
Nobody is talking about putting an L6-20R on a 30 amp circuit. OP was
talking about putting an L6-30P on a 20 amp appliance: a PDU that has
its own 20 amp breaker. Big difference.
If the PDU isn't listed for 30A then it's the essentially the same
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Lamar Owen lo...@pari.edu wrote:
Just replacing an L6-20P with an L6-30P on a 20A-listed PDU would be unsafe
and (IMO) unwise, since the breaker in the input of the PDU does not protect
the flexible cord's conductors from internal overcurrent faults.
Yet an 18
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 12:24:38PM -0400, William Herrin wrote:
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Lamar Owen lo...@pari.edu wrote:
Just replacing an L6-20P with an L6-30P on a 20A-listed PDU would be unsafe
and (IMO) unwise, since the breaker in the input of the PDU does not protect
the
, but no
amount of trying will make them fit.
Malcolm
-Original Message-
From: Jay Ashworth [mailto:j...@baylink.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 4:12 PM
To: NANOG
Subject: Re: L6-20P - L6-30R
- Original Message -
From: Randy a...@djlab.com
I have a situation where a 208v
Original Message -
From: William Herrin b...@herrin.us
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Lamar Owen lo...@pari.edu wrote:
Just replacing an L6-20P with an L6-30P on a 20A-listed PDU would be unsafe
and (IMO) unwise, since the breaker in the input of the PDU does not protect
the
You probably should ask your facility operator or electrician what the
requirements are (who, unlike most network engineers, is qualified to
decide what to do), but it sounds like replacing the PDU is simple and
easy, and unquestionably not a bad thing to do.
Alternatively, you can replace the
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Chuck Anderson c...@wpi.edu wrote:
Yet an 18 awg PC power cable is perfectly safe when plugged in to a
5-20R on a circuit with a 20 amp breaker. Get real man.
Not really, that is just a compromise in safety standards for
convenience. It was deemed to be safe
- Original Message -
From: Joel Maslak jmas...@antelope.net
Alternatively, you can replace the 30A circuit with a 20A one. I'm not an
electrician, but I'll bet it's not much more complex or expensive than
replacing a breaker and a receptacle,
It is exactly that: no one says you
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Jay Ashworth j...@baylink.com wrote:
From: William Herrin b...@herrin.us
Yet an 18 awg PC power cable is perfectly safe when plugged in to a
5-20R on a circuit with a 20 amp breaker. Get real man.
A PC isn't a power distribution device.
There are no power
Just because you say the debate should be ended doesn't mean it's true, or that
you are even correct.
To end the debate, my staff master electrician says just replace the breaker.
Your staff electrician missed half the answer, which would be to replace the
breaker AND the receptacle. But you
To end the debate, my staff master electrician says just replace the
breaker. You can leave the outlet if you want or replace it too.
Doesn't matter. The 30A circuit should be 10 gauge which is fine for 20amp.
And to Jay: Network cables most certainly do carry power.
On 3/19/2014 12:18 PM,
Fair point.
PoE is 48V and current limited, though, precisely to keep it what the Code
calls Low Voltage.
On March 19, 2014 1:26:54 PM EDT, William Herrin b...@herrin.us wrote:
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Jay Ashworth j...@baylink.com wrote:
From: William Herrin b...@herrin.us
Yet an 18
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Jay Ashworth j...@baylink.com wrote:
PoE is 48V and current limited, though, precisely to keep it what the Code
calls Low Voltage.
Hi Jay,
50 watts DC. It won't electrocute you (that's AC) but it's the same
power that makes a 40 watt bulb burning hot.
Regards,
[Whee. This discussion is good for me, as I need to refresh my memory
on the relevant code sections for some new data center
clients.thanks, Bill, you're a great help!]
On 03/19/2014 12:24 PM, William Herrin wrote:
Yet an 18 awg PC power cable is perfectly safe when plugged in to a
5-20R
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 02:05:42PM -0400, William Herrin wrote:
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Jay Ashworth j...@baylink.com wrote:
PoE is 48V and current limited, though, precisely to keep it what the Code
calls Low Voltage.
Hi Jay,
50 watts DC. It won't electrocute you (that's AC)
On 03/19/2014 02:05 PM, William Herrin wrote:
50 watts DC. It won't electrocute you (that's AC) but it's the same
power that makes a 40 watt bulb burning hot.
802.3af is limited to 15.4W, and 802.3at to 25.5W. The limits for Class
2 and 3 circuits are found in Chapter 9, Table 11 (A and B), of
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Chuck Anderson c...@wpi.edu wrote:
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 02:05:42PM -0400, William Herrin wrote:
50 watts DC. It won't electrocute you (that's AC) but it's the same
power that makes a 40 watt bulb burning hot.
I don't know where you are getting your facts,
On 3/19/14, 10:21, Jay Ashworth wrote:
It is exactly that: no one says you*can't* wire a 20A branch circuit with
#10.
It is even*possible*, though unlikely, that if you did so, you wouldn't
have to derate it to 80%. I would have to reread the Code to be sure.
Well, I'd say it's pretty
Jay Ashworth j...@baylink.com writes:
It is exactly that: no one says you *can't* wire a 20A branch circuit with
#10.
It is even *possible*, though unlikely, that if you did so, you wouldn't
have to derate it to 80%. I would have to reread the Code to be sure.
It's not the conductor that
On 3/19/2014 7:00 AM, Alex Rubenstein wrote:
Go look at any standard household lamp. It has a 5-15P on the end of
it, which could be plugged into an outlet rated for 20 amps (5-20R),
with 16 gauge lamp cord rated for 10 amps or less.
Mine all seem to be NEMA 1-15P, some (most?) with 18 AWG
- Original Message -
From: Alex Rubenstein a...@corp.nac.net
And to Jay: Network cables most certainly do carry power.
No, they carry signal, which is considerably different - unless of
course it is 802.1af.
That's what he meant, yes, and a couple other people made the point as
- Original Message -
From: Seth Mattinen se...@rollernet.us
On 3/19/14, 10:21, Jay Ashworth wrote:
It is exactly that: no one says you*can't* wire a 20A branch circuit
with #10.
It is even*possible*, though unlikely, that if you did so, you wouldn't
have to derate it to 80%. I
I have a situation where a 208v/20A PDU (L6-20P) is supposedly hooked to
a 208v/30A circuit (L6-30R). Before I order the correct PDU's and whip
cords...sanity check...are connectors 'similar' enough that this is
possible (with force) or am I going to find we've actually got L6-20R's
on the
They're different. You can't force them.
On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Randy a...@djlab.com wrote:
I have a situation where a 208v/20A PDU (L6-20P) is supposedly hooked to a
208v/30A circuit (L6-30R). Before I order the correct PDU's and whip
cords...sanity check...are connectors
The whole point behind the locking connectors (like the IEC
connectors) is to prevent you from plugging the wrong connectors
together. Not only are the different dimensions, but the prongs are
keyed differently as well.
If you put a L6-20P device into a L6-30R, then it was done by
physically
* w...@typo.org (Wayne E Bouchard) [Tue 18 Mar 2014, 23:53 CET]:
I have had to do this at times but it is not strictly allowed by
codes and not at all recommended.
It's an active fire hazard. The cables aren't rated (= built) for the
power draw.
-- Niels.
The connectors are definitely distinct and incompatible, you won't be able to
force a 20 into a 30 or vice versa.
So yes, one of the ends has been changed.
M.
Original Message
From: Randy
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 18:42
To: nanog@nanog.org
Reply To: a...@djlab.com
Subject: L6-20P
https://www.21cii.com/ITStudio/Content/Resources/Images/Appendix/Plug%20%20Power/SB%202P-3W_505x447.png
I think the 250 v 15 amp plugs fit in the 20 amp sockets, but the 20s don't
fit in the 30 sockets.
This sort of thing is usually an adapter, a little cylinder with a L6-20R
on one end and a
Randy a...@djlab.com wrote:
I have a situation where a 208v/20A PDU (L6-20P) is supposedly hooked to
a 208v/30A circuit (L6-30R). Before I order the correct PDU's and whip
cords...sanity check...are connectors 'similar' enough that this is
possible (with force) or am I going to find we've
Crap, was looking at the non-locking ones. Ignore that.
On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.comwrote:
https://www.21cii.com/ITStudio/Content/Resources/Images/Appendix/Plug%20%20Power/SB%202P-3W_505x447.png
I think the 250 v 15 amp plugs fit in the 20 amp
staff to reset the
breaker.
David
-Original Message-
From: Randy [mailto:a...@djlab.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 3:25 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: L6-20P - L6-30R
I have a situation where a 208v/20A PDU (L6-20P) is supposedly hooked to
a 208v/30A circuit (L6-30R). Before I order
On Tue, 18 Mar 2014, Randy wrote:
I have a situation where a 208v/20A PDU (L6-20P) is supposedly hooked to a
208v/30A circuit (L6-30R). Before I order the correct PDU's and whip
cords...sanity check...are connectors 'similar' enough that this is possible
(with force) or am I going to find
- Original Message -
From: Randy a...@djlab.com
I have a situation where a 208v/20A PDU (L6-20P) is supposedly hooked to
a 208v/30A circuit (L6-30R). Before I order the correct PDU's and whip
cords...sanity check...are connectors 'similar' enough that this is
possible (with force) or
On 18-Mar-14 17:54, Niels Bakker wrote:
* w...@typo.org (Wayne E Bouchard) [Tue 18 Mar 2014, 23:53 CET]:
I have had to do this at times but it is not strictly allowed by
codes and not at all recommended.
It's an active fire hazard. The cables aren't rated (= built) for the
power draw.
Strictly speaking, no, you cannot do this. The diameter of the pattern of the
pins are different 20 to 30 amps.
If no electrical inspectors are looking, yes, you can bend the pins and make
it work. I've done it, others have done it, but you shouldn't do it and it is
a clear electrical code
Go look at any standard household lamp. It has a 5-15P on the end of it, which
could be plugged into an outlet rated for 20 amps (5-20R), with 16 gauge lamp
cord rated for 10 amps or less.
It all depends on the connected load.
* w...@typo.org (Wayne E Bouchard) [Tue 18 Mar 2014, 23:53 CET]:
On 03/18/2014 7:11 pm, Jay Ashworth wrote:
As it happens, the chart at
http://www.stayonline.com/reference-nema-locking.aspx
suggests that the L6-20 and L6-30 are less different than you'd expect.
I *think* those are on different diameters, and a datacenter employee
ought
to friggin' know
- Original Message -
On 18-Mar-14 17:54, Niels Bakker wrote:
* w...@typo.org (Wayne E Bouchard) [Tue 18 Mar 2014, 23:53 CET]:
I have had to do this at times but it is not strictly allowed by
codes and not at all recommended.
It's an active fire hazard. The cables aren't rated
- Original Message -
From: Stephen Sprunk step...@sprunk.org
On 18-Mar-14 17:54, Niels Bakker wrote:
* w...@typo.org (Wayne E Bouchard) [Tue 18 Mar 2014, 23:53 CET]:
I have had to do this at times but it is not strictly allowed by
codes and not at all recommended.
It's an
It's temporary unless it works.
-Laszlo
On Mar 18, 2014, at 11:30 PM, Jay Ashworth j...@baylink.com wrote:
- Original Message -
From: Stephen Sprunk step...@sprunk.org
On 18-Mar-14 17:54, Niels Bakker wrote:
* w...@typo.org (Wayne E Bouchard) [Tue 18 Mar 2014, 23:53 CET]:
I have
On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Niels Bakker niels=na...@bakker.net wrote:
* w...@typo.org (Wayne E Bouchard) [Tue 18 Mar 2014, 23:53 CET]:
I have had to do this at times but it is not strictly allowed by codes and
not at all recommended.
It's an active fire hazard. The cables aren't rated
we've actually got L6-20R's
on the provider side?
http://www.amazon.com/L6-20P-L6-30R-Locking-Power-Adapter/dp/B004W359W0
--
Requiescas in pace o email Two identifying characteristics
of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio
On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 09:39:46PM -0400, William Herrin wrote:
There just aren't a whole lot of failure modes here that result in
fire short of one or the other breaker failing. And that results in
fire regardless of the amperage mismatch.
This, by the way, is why you're allowed to plug
On 3/18/2014 6:11 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
From: Randy a...@djlab.com
I have a situation where a 208v/20A PDU (L6-20P) is supposedly hooked to
a 208v/30A circuit (L6-30R). Before I order the correct PDU's and whip
cords...sanity check...are connectors 'similar' enough that this is
possible (with
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