Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[Lee Howard]

On 10/27/19 12:47 PM, Michel Py wrote:



Michel Py wrote :
What I like with Hilco is that it brings transparency to the market. I think 
that each transfer should list the amount of the
transaction between parties. For example, I would like to know for how much 
44.192/10 went.


The parties to transactions probably protect that data in the same way 
they protect how much they paid for their routers, software licenses, 
and payroll.




Owen DeLong wrote :
If you really feel that this should be data the RIRs collect during transfers 
and that it should be published, I suggest you submit a proposal
for this into the ARIN policy development process. If you need help doing so, 
feel free to ask me or any other member of the AC.

I think the result should be simple, a .csv file containing an entry for each 
prefix transferred :
Date, size, price, origin RIR, resulting RIR.
Something like https://auctions.ipv4.global/prior-sales but covering all 
transactions, not only ipv4.global ones.
Transparency on transfer prices.


Other than price, each of the RIRs publishes all of that information in 
a daily transfers report. Maybe JSON instead of CSV, and they don't all 
use the same dictionary, but it's public.


Anyone can list blocks on auctions.ipv4.global, and the transaction will 
be included in our prior-sales report. Even private transactions can be 
run through the site, with the side benefit of including the transaction 
in that report.


Some brokers use the platform when they have a buyer who needs space and 
they don't have the right block, or they have a seller and want broader 
reach. If other brokers, buyers, or sellers were interested in 
publishing their transaction data, we'd happily do it.





What do you think about it ? a two-prong question :

- As yourself ? is it desirable for the community  in your opinion ?

- As AC member ? Does it have any chance to be approved by the AC ?

I would submit a proposal if it has some chances to pass; I don't want to lose 
the time of the AC if it's going to be deep-sixed right away.


This Thursday afternoon, at the end of the ARIN public policy meeting, 
is open mic time. If you want to float an idea to get the community's 
first impression, that's a pretty good time.


Lee

RE: IPv4 and Auctions

[Michel Py]

> John Curran wrote :
>  So, if by “the right to use them”, one is referring to being the one listed 
> in the ARIN database for the address space and/or use ARIN services applicable
> to those address blocks, then that is indeed a contractual right, but it 
> doesn’t get transferred or assigned except as the community policy states.  
> For
>  example, redelegation by ISPs is clearly covered by ARIN policy, so we 
> recognize such and even provide services specifically to support same.

I wish to retract what I wrote earlier : I totally acknowledge and support 
ARIN's phrasing, and it was absolutely not meant as a challenge.
ARIN does not lease me the IP block I thought I "bought" on the transfer market.

What I "bought" is, by the result of a complex by-product iterations of ARIN 
acknowledgement that although I neither own or rent the apartment, my name is 
on it, I somehow expect that the community will somehow consider that my org is 
the one who should announce the prefix allocated / assigned to said org, and 
not someone else.

Is this appropriate langage ?

I am going to move the thread of transparency to arin-ppml, where it belongs.

Michel.

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Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[John Curran]

On 26 Oct 2019, at 8:28 AM, Owen DeLong 
mailto:o...@delong.com>> wrote:
…
The difference is that ARIN charges almost nothing for the rent, so what you 
basically are auctioning is the right too use a free appartment, which is worth 
money.
Even if you don't own the IP addresses, the right to use them is a tangible 
asset.

I’m sure someone from ARIN staff will correct me if I’m wrong about this, but I 
don’t believe that is the case.

ARIN registration is NOT (to the best of my knowledge):
+ A right to use
+ A property right in a set of integers
+ Any sort of right to have your numbers routed on the internet (or anywhere)
+ Any sort of exclusive right to control of a set of integers for a particular 
purpose

ARIN registration is (to the best of my knowledge):
+ A guarantee of unique association of a set of integers to your organization 
within a
cooperating set of databases collectively known as the RIR System.
+ A guarantee of certain property and control rights over said registration 
within that
system. (note that’s the registration, not the registered integers)
+ Unless you are a non-RSA legacy registrant, it is a contractual relationship 
between
you and ARIN (and by extension said RIR system) which provides both rights and
obligations on your conduct with respect to said registration.
+ The right and ability to update certain attributes in the records of your 
registration(s).

So ARIN doesn’t actually rent the right to use an apartment so much as a 
recording of the fact
that certain entities agree that your name goes on the door of said apartment.

Owen -

Actually, that’s quite close.  To be clear on this, I’ll point out that ARIN 
recognizes that those issued IP address blocks have several specific rights –

• The exclusive right to be the registrant of the resources within the ARIN 
database
• The right to use the number resources _within the ARIN database_
• The right to transfer the number resources pursuant to the community’s 
policies.

These rights are provided contractually to all parties with ARIN-issued 
resources, and ARIN will recognize and formalize the rights of those issued 
resources by ARIN’s predecessors (legacy resource holders) by entering into a 
registration services agreement with them if wish clear contractual rights over 
their resources.

Note that these rights cannot be assigned or transferred without ARIN’s consent 
and such consent may not be unreasonably withheld if consistent with the 
policies.

So, if by “the right to use them”, one is referring to being the one listed in 
the ARIN database for the address space and/or use ARIN services applicable to 
those address blocks, then that is indeed a contractual right, but it doesn’t 
get transferred or assigned except as the community policy states.  For 
example, redelegation by ISPs is clearly covered by ARIN policy, so we 
recognize such and even provide services specifically to support same.

If “the right to use them” is rather a reference to ability to route address 
blocks with your various ISP partners, then that’s really a question about the 
business practices of those accepting the routes…

Now, coincidentally and fortunately, the vast majority of ISPs choose to regard 
the data in the
RIR system as an important record of who they will accept prefix advertisements 
from, which
makes it much harder to use numbers that are not associated with your 
organization in the RIR system
for routing on the internet, but that’s actually a coincidental behavior of the 
ISPs and not actually
any sort of right, privilege, or ability issued or managed by ARIN.

Correct.   ARIN’s policies govern the administration of the number resources in 
the registry, and there is no requirement for resource holders to route their 
networks in any particular manner.   During the Anti-hijack policy discussion 
on arin-p...@arin.net,  I noted that if the 
community really wanted ARIN to require certain routing hygiene, that would 
require changing the RSA, and any changes to ARIN’s RSA going forward (outside 
of conformance to changing law) actually requires a member ratification vote…  
(a particularly high hurdle, but potentially achievable if the community really 
feels that they want additional obligations in this regard.)

Thanks,
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers

Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[Owen DeLong]

> On Oct 27, 2019, at 09:47 , Michel Py  wrote:
> 
> Hi Owen,
> 
>> Owen DeLong wrote :
>> So ARIN doesn’t actually rent the right to use an apartment so much as a 
>> recording of the fact
>> that certain entities agree that your name goes on the door of said 
>> apartment.
> 
> Correct, but in the end I still have the apartment for very cheap, good 
> enough for me.
> If a squatter tries to use it, good chances are that community efforts, not 
> ARIN because ARIN is not the police, will lead to me retaining the use of it.
> 
> 
>>> Michel Py wrote :
>>> What I like with Hilco is that it brings transparency to the market. I 
>>> think that each transfer should list the amount of the
>>> transaction between parties. For example, I would like to know for how much 
>>> 44.192/10 went.
> 
>> Owen DeLong wrote :
>> If you really feel that this should be data the RIRs collect during 
>> transfers and that it should be published, I suggest you submit a proposal
>> for this into the ARIN policy development process. If you need help doing 
>> so, feel free to ask me or any other member of the AC.
> 
> I think the result should be simple, a .csv file containing an entry for each 
> prefix transferred :
> Date, size, price, origin RIR, resulting RIR.
> Something like https://auctions.ipv4.global/prior-sales but covering all 
> transactions, not only ipv4.global ones.
> Transparency on transfer prices.
> 
> What do you think about it ? a two-prong question :

I’m not super enthusiastic about it one way or the other, to be honest. I 
wouldn’t oppose a policy favoring market transparency,
but I doubt it will achieve significant support from the rest of the community 
and I’m sure there will be vocal opposition.

> - As yourself ? is it desirable for the community  in your opinion ?

I think it could offer some benefit to the community. OTOH, I can also 
understand why some entities prefer to keep their financial
data private. I’m honestly somewhat ambivalent about where the balance should 
be struck here between privacy and transparency.

> - As AC member ? Does it have any chance to be approved by the AC ?

That’s not really a valid question, IMHO. I think anything which garners 
significant support in the community has a chance to be
approved by the AC. We are representatives of the community. I can’t speak for 
other AC members, but I will say that I do sometimes
find myself voting on the AC in a manner that does not reflect my personal 
views because I have seen clear indication from the
community that the will of the community differs from my personal opinion.

> I would submit a proposal if it has some chances to pass; I don't want to 
> lose the time of the AC if it's going to be deep-sixed right away.

The only way a proposal gets deep-sixed by the AC right away is if it is out of 
scope or has an unclear problem statement.

After that, the AC only abandons proposals that have received significant 
opposition from the community and which the AC does not believe
have will ever reach consensus within the community.

> Side question more towards John or the ARIN staff, how much work is that 
> going to be to implement ?

Some questions likely necessary for John or staff to answer:

Which classes of transfers would you apply this to?
8.2 (M&A)?
8.3 (Specified Transfers within the ARIN region)
8.4 (Inter-RIR transfers to/from ARIN)
Inbound only?
Outbound only?
Both?

What about 8.4 transfers where the party not in the ARIN region insists on a 
confidentiality agreement about pricing? How far
do you want to extend the ARIN policy into affecting the behavior of suppliers 
and/or recipients in other regions?

Owen

> 
> Michel.
> 
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RE: IPv4 and Auctions

[Michel Py]

Hi Owen,

> Owen DeLong wrote :
> So ARIN doesn’t actually rent the right to use an apartment so much as a 
> recording of the fact
> that certain entities agree that your name goes on the door of said apartment.

Correct, but in the end I still have the apartment for very cheap, good enough 
for me.
If a squatter tries to use it, good chances are that community efforts, not 
ARIN because ARIN is not the police, will lead to me retaining the use of it.


>> Michel Py wrote :
>> What I like with Hilco is that it brings transparency to the market. I think 
>> that each transfer should list the amount of the
>> transaction between parties. For example, I would like to know for how much 
>> 44.192/10 went.

> Owen DeLong wrote :
> If you really feel that this should be data the RIRs collect during transfers 
> and that it should be published, I suggest you submit a proposal
> for this into the ARIN policy development process. If you need help doing so, 
> feel free to ask me or any other member of the AC.

I think the result should be simple, a .csv file containing an entry for each 
prefix transferred :
Date, size, price, origin RIR, resulting RIR.
Something like https://auctions.ipv4.global/prior-sales but covering all 
transactions, not only ipv4.global ones.
Transparency on transfer prices.

What do you think about it ? a two-prong question :

- As yourself ? is it desirable for the community  in your opinion ?

- As AC member ? Does it have any chance to be approved by the AC ?

I would submit a proposal if it has some chances to pass; I don't want to lose 
the time of the AC if it's going to be deep-sixed right away.

Side question more towards John or the ARIN staff, how much work is that going 
to be to implement ?

Michel.

TSI Disclaimer:  This message and any files or text attached to it are intended 
only for the recipients named above and contain information that may be 
confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not 
forward, copy, use or otherwise disclose this communication or the information 
contained herein. In the event you have received this message in error, please 
notify the sender immediately by replying to this message, and then delete all 
copies of it from your system. Thank you!...

Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[Randy Bush]

>> There's a fairly famous animal behavior experiment where rats are
>> allowed to multiply in a room-sized cage without control, food and
>> water and basic sanitation are provided.
>>
>> When the cage becomes extremely crowded rats are observed gnawing on
>> each other's tails.
>
> Are any of the rats using routable IP addresses?

yes, but ipv6 only; which is why we can't see them from the internet

Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[Owen DeLong]

Speaking strictly on my own behalf and not in any way representing any official 
opinion or position of
ARIN or the AC…


> On Oct 24, 2019, at 17:29 , Michel Py  wrote:
> 
>> Matt Hoppes wrote :
>> How is it, then, that we daily for the last 2-3 years have places like Hilco 
>> that have sometimes 15-20 large IPv4 blocks up for auction?
> 
> Because now it's worth real money, while earlier it was better to hoard it, 
> just in case.
> 
>> Another thought: being that IPv4 address space is essentially leased to you 
>> from ARIN, can you even legally auction your space to
>> someone else? I know it’s happening, but it would almost be like me 
>> auctioning my apartment to another random person.
> 
> The difference is that ARIN charges almost nothing for the rent, so what you 
> basically are auctioning is the right too use a free appartment, which is 
> worth money.
> Even if you don't own the IP addresses, the right to use them is a tangible 
> asset.

I’m sure someone from ARIN staff will correct me if I’m wrong about this, but I 
don’t believe that is the case.

ARIN registration is NOT (to the best of my knowledge):
+   A right to use
+   A property right in a set of integers
+   Any sort of right to have your numbers routed on the internet 
(or anywhere)
+   Any sort of exclusive right to control of a set of integers for 
a particular purpose

ARIN registration is (to the best of my knowledge):
+   A guarantee of unique association of a set of integers to your 
organization within a
cooperating set of databases collectively known as the RIR 
System.
+   A guarantee of certain property and control rights over said 
registration within that
system. (note that’s the registration, not the registered 
integers)
+   Unless you are a non-RSA legacy registrant, it is a contractual 
relationship between
you and ARIN (and by extension said RIR system) which provides 
both rights and
obligations on your conduct with respect to said registration.
+   The right and ability to update certain attributes in the 
records of your registration(s).

So ARIN doesn’t actually rent the right to use an apartment so much as a 
recording of the fact
that certain entities agree that your name goes on the door of said apartment.

Now, coincidentally and fortunately, the vast majority of ISPs choose to regard 
the data in the
RIR system as an important record of who they will accept prefix advertisements 
from, which
makes it much harder to use numbers that are not associated with your 
organization in the RIR system
for routing on the internet, but that’s actually a coincidental behavior of the 
ISPs and not actually
any sort of right, privilege, or ability issued or managed by ARIN.

>> I get that -- but if you don't need a /18, don't the ARIN rules require they 
>> be returned?
> 
> There are 3 reasons why it does not happen :
> 
> 1. ARIN does not measure how much a block is utilized.
> The block does not even have to be announced on the Internet. How does ARIN 
> know how much of 30/8 is in use ?

ARIN could measure this by pursuing an audit under section 12 of the NRPM.

> 2. Even if they did, there is utilization and there there is "utilization". 
> If an ISP has a produt that gives a /28 to each business aDSL, it is 
> justifiable. Now we all know that all that 99% of business aDSL cares about 
> is ONE static IP, but giving them a /28 is a good method to request large 
> blocks of IPs just in case they are needed later.

It’s not entirely clear whether this practice is truly within ARIN policy or 
not. On a theoretical level, ARIN could ask said ISP to show that it’s 
customers are efficiently utilizing those /28s.

On a practical level, a /28 is small enough that it takes a lot of customers to 
add up to anything I would call a “large block”.

> 3. Why should one spend time returning free ressources that may be of some 
> use later ?

In the past, many of us did so simply because it was the right thing to do and 
good neighborly behavior.

I realize that in the modern world and the current state of IPv4, such an 
attitude seems quaint, even naive,
but there were kinder gentler times on the internet when this was more of a 
behavioral norm.

>> Lee Howard wrote :
>> IPv4.Global is the IPv4 address brokerage operated by Hilco Streambank.
> 
> What I like with Hilco is that it brings transparency to the market. I think 
> that each transfer should list the amount of the transaction between parties.
> For example, I would like to know for how much 44.192/10 went.

If you really feel that this should be data the RIRs collect during transfers 
and that it should be published, I suggest you submit a proposal
for this into the ARIN policy development process. If you need help doing so, 
feel free to ask me or any other member of the AC.

Owen

Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[John Curran]

On 24 Oct 2019, at 5:18 AM, Jon Lewis  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> 
>> A thought crossed my mind the other day as I was having a discussion with 
>> someone.
>> 
>> Every entity is suppose to justify their need for IPv4 address space from 
>> ARIN. This was always (in recent history) the case.

Over the history of the Internet numbers registry system, there has been some 
requirements to be met in order to have IPv4 address space issued to you.   
You’d have to ask Vint Cerf, Steve Crocker, or their ilk for the earliest 
requirements, but I expect it was not much more than asking Jon Postel to make 
the registration entry in his notebook of assigned numbers.  The requirements 
became a little more formal over time – i.e. requiring one to fill out and 
submitting to SRI (or their successor GSI or their successor InterNIC/NSI) a 
template describing the number of IP addresses that you need immediately and 
over 1, 2, and 5 years time.  

RFC 1174 documents the decision to delegate the central “Internet Registry” 
(IR) assignment authority to regional bodies, and you can see the formalization 
of the IP assignment policy in RFC 1466.  In November 1996 (pre-ARIN). RFC 2050 
was published containing guidelines regarding administration of the registry.  
The regional registries at the time were RIPE NCC, APNIC, and the InterNIC 
(operated by NSI), with the InterNIC’s “region” being nominally everyplace not 
served by RIPE NCC or APNIC.   Network Solutions (NSI) performed the InterNIC 
function per an agreement awarded under the authority of the National Science 
Foundation (NSF).  

Note that RFC 2050 provided that one could return their unused address space or 
one could transfer space to someone meeting the same requirements as necessary 
to obtain an assignment directly from the free pool ("7.  The transfer of IP 
addresses from one party to another must be approved by the regional 
registries.  The party trying to obtain the IP address must meet the same 
criteria as if they were requesting an IP address directly from the IR.”)

>> No entity is suppose to be given more IPv4 space until they have nearly 
>> exhausted their previous space.
>> 
>> How is it, then, that we daily for the last 2-3 years have places like Hilco 
>> that have sometimes 15-20 large IPv4 blocks up for auction?
>> 
>> Supposedly we are completely out of IPv4 space, yet every day large blocks 
>> are being sold for money, yet they were never returned because they weren’t 
>> needed.
>> 
>> Another thought: being that IPv4 address space is essentially leased to you 
>> from ARIN, can you even legally auction your space to someone else? I know 
>> it’s happening, but it would almost be like me auctioning my apartment to 
>> another random person.
> 
> There are probably more qualified people who can answer this, but lots of IP 
> space was handed out to organizations (and even to individuals) long before 
> the RIRs like ARIN were created.  Those "assignments" / "allocations" 
> (whatever you want to call them) are outside of the control of the RIRs 
> because they had no involvement in them.

Incorrect.  There are been a sequence of entities administering the registry – 
you may have gotten your assignment from Jon Postel or SRI, but it was being 
maintained by the successor registries (GSI, NSI/InterNIC, ARIN or RIPE or 
LACNIC, , etc.) since that time.  

In the ARIN region, we refer to “legacy resource holders” as the parties (or 
their legal successors) who hold number resources issued to them by ARIN’s 
predecessors prior to ARIN’s inception in December 1997.  If you obtain an 
address block from a legacy resource holder, you are not a legacy resource 
holder unless you purchased the entire company (i.e. merger/acquisition) and 
thus are the legal successor.  The reason that ARIN provides special pricing 
and terms for legacy resource holders is because we respect those organizations 
contributions to the earliest days of the Internet, and provide a voluntary 
path for them to formalize their rights via the RSA agreement with favorable 
terms, if they so choose. 

Note that none of the above speaks to policy – ARIN’s policies apply to all 
resources in its registry, and all parties are welcome to participate, 
including legacy resource holders who haven’t entered any formal agreement for 
services with ARIN.   The NSF press release issued at the time of ARIN’s 
formation  shows NSF’s 
approval of the transition of administration of the registry to ARIN and notes 
that  "Creation of ARIN will give the users of IP numbers (mostly Internet 
service providers, corporations and other large institutions) a voice in the 
policies by which they are managed and allocated within the North American 
region.”  As such, legacy resource holders are encouraged to participate in the 
policy development process that sets the policy used for management of the 
(now) ARIN 

Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[Matthew Kaufman]

Are any of the rats using routable IP addresses?

On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 10:11 AM  wrote:

>
> There's a fairly famous animal behavior experiment where rats are
> allowed to multiply in a room-sized cage without control, food and
> water and basic sanitation are provided.
>
> When the cage becomes extremely crowded rats are observed gnawing on
> each other's tails.
>
> --
> -Barry Shein
>
> Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com |
> http://www.TheWorld.com
> Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD   | 800-THE-WRLD
> The World: Since 1989  | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
>

Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[bzs]

There's a fairly famous animal behavior experiment where rats are
allowed to multiply in a room-sized cage without control, food and
water and basic sanitation are provided.

When the cage becomes extremely crowded rats are observed gnawing on
each other's tails.

-- 
-Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD   | 800-THE-WRLD
The World: Since 1989  | A Public Information Utility | *oo*

RE: IPv4 and Auctions

[Michel Py]

> Matt Hoppes wrote :
> How is it, then, that we daily for the last 2-3 years have places like Hilco 
> that have sometimes 15-20 large IPv4 blocks up for auction?

Because now it's worth real money, while earlier it was better to hoard it, 
just in case.

> Another thought: being that IPv4 address space is essentially leased to you 
> from ARIN, can you even legally auction your space to
> someone else? I know it’s happening, but it would almost be like me 
> auctioning my apartment to another random person.

The difference is that ARIN charges almost nothing for the rent, so what you 
basically are auctioning is the right too use a free appartment, which is worth 
money.
Even if you don't own the IP addresses, the right to use them is a tangible 
asset.

> I get that -- but if you don't need a /18, don't the ARIN rules require they 
> be returned?

There are 3 reasons why it does not happen :

1. ARIN does not measure how much a block is utilized.
The block does not even have to be announced on the Internet. How does ARIN 
know how much of 30/8 is in use ?

2. Even if they did, there is utilization and there there is "utilization". If 
an ISP has a produt that gives a /28 to each business aDSL, it is justifiable. 
Now we all know that all that 99% of business aDSL cares about is ONE static 
IP, but giving them a /28 is a good method to request large blocks of IPs just 
in case they are needed later.

3. Why should one spend time returning free ressources that may be of some use 
later ?


> Lee Howard wrote :
> IPv4.Global is the IPv4 address brokerage operated by Hilco Streambank.

What I like with Hilco is that it brings transparency to the market. I think 
that each transfer should list the amount of the transaction between parties.
For example, I would like to know for how much 44.192/10 went.

Michel.


TSI Disclaimer:  This message and any files or text attached to it are intended 
only for the recipients named above and contain information that may be 
confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not 
forward, copy, use or otherwise disclose this communication or the information 
contained herein. In the event you have received this message in error, please 
notify the sender immediately by replying to this message, and then delete all 
copies of it from your system. Thank you!...

Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[Matt Palmer]

On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 09:30:20AM -0400, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> On 10/24/19 9:25 AM, Chris Adams wrote:
> > Once upon a time, Matt Hoppes  said:
> > > You don’t suddenly just not need a/8 or suddenly not need a/21.
> > 
> > You don't "suddenly just" do lots of things, because things change over
> > time; no need to attribute malicious intent.  For example, a former
> > employer had a /17, a /18, and a /19 at one point (and even that was
> > kind of tight).  The business has changed though, and now they have a
> > /23 and two /24s, and sold the rest.
> 
> I get that -- but if you don't need a /18, don't the ARIN rules require they
> be returned?

Well, there's need, and then there's "need".  If you've sprayed your
organisation's IP addresses all across your /18, then you "need" that whole
/18, and you're going to have to undertake a whole renumbering fiesta to
change that, which is going to be costly both in direct labour costs, as
well as disruption to services.

Since there's no requirement for all the addresses to be publicly reachable,
there's no way for anyone outside of your organisation to tell that only one
/24 in each /21 is actually being used, and even then each /24 only has 4-5
hosts in it.  Thus, nobody at ARIN (or anywhere else) is going to come
beating down your door to demand you give back that big block you're only
sparsely using.

Now, imagine that suddenly you can get Real Money for the unused addresses. 
It might, at some point, turn out to make financial sense to spend the money
to renumber into a smaller block and get phat sacks of mad cheddar for the
addresses you can free up.  If you want to take a charitable look at it, the
money that organisations get for "selling" their unused space can be seen
rather as compensation for undertaking the work necessary to free up that
space.  The invisible hand of the market at work!

You can also, of course, see it as pointless busy-work that would have been
better spent just rolling out IPv6 and being done with it.  Your mileage, as
the sticker says, may vary.

- Matt

Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[Lee Howard]

Since you mentioned Hilco specifically. . .

IPv4.Global is the IPv4 address brokerage operated by Hilco Streambank. 
We match organizations who have more IPv4 address space than they need 
with organizations who need more IPv4 address space than they have. This 
is consistent with ARIN's Number Resource Policy Manual sections 8.3. 
and 8.4 
https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/nrpm/#8-3-transfers-between-specified-recipients-within-the-arin-region


I was on the ARIN Board when we approved this policy in 2008. The 
compelling argument to me was that this market would improve overall 
utilization of address space, and would be more efficient than ARIN 
trying to reclaim unused or lightly used address blocks. There are a lot 
of cases where pre-RIR, the justification was minimal, and 
organizational needs may change over the intervening 20-40 years.


Part of the interest, to me, was that many organizations who had 
received their allocations prior to ARIN's existence did not recognize 
ARIN's authority to reclaim their space. Even if ARIN prevailed in 
court, it would have been costly.


Not only that, but there's no minimum utilization requirement to keep 
addresses. You must show 50-80% utilization to get more, but what if you 
aren't asking for more? Would ARIN reclaim a block that was only 45% 
used? 25%? 1%?


In each of the more than 1500 transfers IPv4.Global has handled, the 
recipient has had to satisfy their need under the rules of the RIR in 
which they operate.


ARIN's policies are established by community consensus. ARIN's Public 
Policy Mailing List (ppml) is open, and there's a designated open 
microphone time at the end of the meeting next Thursday. If you won't be 
there in person, remote participation is pretty good.


I'm always happy to talk about this, either one on one, or if there are 
other folks at NANOG/ARIN next week who want to get together to chat, 
I'd be happy to facilitate.


Lee


On 10/24/19 8:08 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:

A thought crossed my mind the other day as I was having a discussion with 
someone.

Every entity is suppose to justify their need for IPv4 address space from ARIN. 
This was always (in recent history) the case.

No entity is suppose to be given more IPv4 space until they have nearly 
exhausted their previous space.

How is it, then, that we daily for the last 2-3 years have places like Hilco 
that have sometimes 15-20 large IPv4 blocks up for auction?

Supposedly we are completely out of IPv4 space, yet every day large blocks are 
being sold for money, yet they were never returned because they weren’t needed.

Another thought: being that IPv4 address space is essentially leased to you 
from ARIN, can you even legally auction your space to someone else? I know it’s 
happening, but it would almost be like me auctioning my apartment to another 
random person.

Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[Mike Meredith]

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 08:18:47 -0400 (EDT), Jon Lewis  may
have written:
> IP space was handed out to organizations (and even to individuals) long 
> before the RIRs like ARIN were created.  Those "assignments" / 
> "allocations" (whatever you want to call them) are outside of the control 
> of the RIRs because they had no involvement in them.

I don't know about others but "my" SRI-NIC allocation passed to RIPE
control some while back, as a "legacy" (mnt-by: RIPE-NCC-LEGACY-MNT) block.
Although it was fairly easy to predict where it should go.

-- 
Mike Meredith, University of Portsmouth
Chief Systems Engineer, Hostmaster, Security, and Timelord!
 


pgpd3UTjnsJpL.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[Matt Hoppes]

On 10/24/19 9:25 AM, Chris Adams wrote:

Once upon a time, Matt Hoppes  said:

You don’t suddenly just not need a/8 or suddenly not need a/21.


You don't "suddenly just" do lots of things, because things change over
time; no need to attribute malicious intent.  For example, a former
employer had a /17, a /18, and a /19 at one point (and even that was
kind of tight).  The business has changed though, and now they have a
/23 and two /24s, and sold the rest.




I get that -- but if you don't need a /18, don't the ARIN rules require 
they be returned?

Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[Matt Hoppes]

You can hold onto resources you don't actively need, and nothing in any 
RIR agreement I'm aware of (I'm only familiar with ARIN's) says 
otherwise. There is no requirement to return resources under any 
circumstances.


So you're saying you can justify a large amount of IPs with ARIN, then 
suddenly not need them and just hold onto them?  I was under the 
impression you had to need them in order to hold onto them?

Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Matt Hoppes  said:
> You don’t suddenly just not need a/8 or suddenly not need a/21.

You don't "suddenly just" do lots of things, because things change over
time; no need to attribute malicious intent.  For example, a former
employer had a /17, a /18, and a /19 at one point (and even that was
kind of tight).  The business has changed though, and now they have a
/23 and two /24s, and sold the rest.

-- 
Chris Adams 

Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[Matt Hoppes]

I agree that why would you return something that has value that you can sell, 
but isn’t there the requirement that you have a justification for the IP 
addresses when you got them from ARIN? And if you can now sell them and in some 
cases sell large blocks of them, either someone lied to a RIN to get them and 
you didn’t actually need them, or you’ve been holding onto them and you don’t 
actually have a justification for them.

You don’t suddenly just not need a/8 or suddenly not need a/21.

> On Oct 24, 2019, at 9:02 AM, Matt Harris  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 7:08 AM Matt Hoppes 
>>  wrote:
> 
>> A thought crossed my mind the other day as I was having a discussion with 
>> someone. 
>> 
>> Every entity is suppose to justify their need for IPv4 address space from 
>> ARIN. This was always (in recent history) the case. 
>> 
>> No entity is suppose to be given more IPv4 space until they have nearly 
>> exhausted their previous space. 
> 
> A lot of entities received very large allocations prior to depletion being a 
> concern. A lot of entities received very large allocations prior to NAT even 
> being a thing. Back in the late 90s/early 00s, lots of very large scale 
> projects were going on in very large organizations to get away from every 
> desktop, PC, and printer having a world-routable IPv4 address. 
> 
> Interestingly, that came with a shift in mentality away from having firewalls 
> at various borders - a mentality we really need to resurrect on a lot of 
> networks as IPv6 takes off. 
> 
>> How is it, then, that we daily for the last 2-3 years have places like Hilco 
>> that have sometimes 15-20 large IPv4 blocks up for auction?
>> 
>> Supposedly we are completely out of IPv4 space, yet every day large blocks 
>> are being sold for money, yet they were never returned because they weren’t 
>> needed. 
> 
> Why would you return an asset that has value when you could sell it instead? 
> I mean, look, I'm all for charity, but this is hardly feeding any orphans or 
> curing any diseases or sending any talented low income kids to NANOG. 
> 
> Besides the fact that from the standpoint of the RIR, processing transfers is 
> less hassle than processing a return and then keeping wait lists going 
> indefinitely. Better to shift focus to IPv6 as far as allocating space goes, 
> and let folks like Hilco worry about lining up buyers and sellers for IPv4 
> space. Remember, Hilco makes more profit on facilitating those transactions 
> than an RIR most likely would with their fee structures that are designed to 
> keep them functioning efficiently, not to keep them engaged in cumbersome 
> legacy businesses. 
> 
>> Another thought: being that IPv4 address space is essentially leased to you 
>> from ARIN, can you even legally auction your space to someone else? I know 
>> it’s happening, but it would almost be like me auctioning my apartment to 
>> another random person.
> 
> 
> Legally speaking, the RSA with ARIN is not particularly similar to most 
> rental housing contracts. 
> 
> Besides that, many apartment leases do allow sub-letting or transferring the 
> lease, as well. 
> 
> Take care,
> Matt
> 

Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[Matt Harris]

On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 7:08 AM Matt Hoppes <
mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:

> A thought crossed my mind the other day as I was having a discussion with
> someone.
>
> Every entity is suppose to justify their need for IPv4 address space from
> ARIN. This was always (in recent history) the case.
>
> No entity is suppose to be given more IPv4 space until they have nearly
> exhausted their previous space.
>

A lot of entities received very large allocations prior to depletion being
a concern. A lot of entities received very large allocations prior to NAT
even being a thing. Back in the late 90s/early 00s, lots of very large
scale projects were going on in very large organizations to get away from
every desktop, PC, and printer having a world-routable IPv4 address.

Interestingly, that came with a shift in mentality away from having
firewalls at various borders - a mentality we really need to resurrect on a
lot of networks as IPv6 takes off.

How is it, then, that we daily for the last 2-3 years have places like
> Hilco that have sometimes 15-20 large IPv4 blocks up for auction?
>
> Supposedly we are completely out of IPv4 space, yet every day large blocks
> are being sold for money, yet they were never returned because they weren’t
> needed.
>

Why would you return an asset that has value when you could sell it
instead? I mean, look, I'm all for charity, but this is hardly feeding any
orphans or curing any diseases or sending any talented low income kids to
NANOG.

Besides the fact that from the standpoint of the RIR, processing transfers
is less hassle than processing a return and then keeping wait lists going
indefinitely. Better to shift focus to IPv6 as far as allocating space
goes, and let folks like Hilco worry about lining up buyers and sellers for
IPv4 space. Remember, Hilco makes more profit on facilitating those
transactions than an RIR most likely would with their fee structures that
are designed to keep them functioning efficiently, not to keep them engaged
in cumbersome legacy businesses.

Another thought: being that IPv4 address space is essentially leased to you
> from ARIN, can you even legally auction your space to someone else? I know
> it’s happening, but it would almost be like me auctioning my apartment to
> another random person.


Legally speaking, the RSA with ARIN is not particularly similar to most
rental housing contracts.

Besides that, many apartment leases do allow sub-letting or transferring
the lease, as well.

Take care,
Matt

Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[Mark Andrews]

> On 24 Oct 2019, at 11:18 pm, Jon Lewis  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> 
>> A thought crossed my mind the other day as I was having a discussion with 
>> someone.
>> 
>> Every entity is suppose to justify their need for IPv4 address space from 
>> ARIN. This was always (in recent history) the case.
>> 
>> No entity is suppose to be given more IPv4 space until they have nearly 
>> exhausted their previous space.
>> 
>> How is it, then, that we daily for the last 2-3 years have places like Hilco 
>> that have sometimes 15-20 large IPv4 blocks up for auction?
>> 
>> Supposedly we are completely out of IPv4 space, yet every day large blocks 
>> are being sold for money, yet they were never returned because they weren’t 
>> needed.
>> 
>> Another thought: being that IPv4 address space is essentially leased to you 
>> from ARIN, can you even legally auction your space to someone else? I know 
>> it’s happening, but it would almost be like me auctioning my apartment to 
>> another random person.
> 
> There are probably more qualified people who can answer this, but lots of IP 
> space was handed out to organizations (and even to individuals) long before 
> the RIRs like ARIN were created.  Those "assignments" / "allocations" 
> (whatever you want to call them) are outside of the control of the RIRs 
> because they had no involvement in them.
> 
> With more recent IP spaces that were first assigned/allocated by an RIR and 
> are therefore regulated by the RIRs, I believe purchases of those IP blocks 
> are contingent on getting RIR approval for the transfer, meaning the buyer, 
> in addition to paying the seller, would have to justify their need to the 
> appropriate RIR and get the RIR's blessing on the transfer.

And most of the pre-RIR allocations where also needs based.  I know I had to 
justify the B and 3 C’s I got back in ’88 from SRI-NIC (pre-CIDR).  
Unfortunately I don’t have the paperwork anymore.  You had to do projected host 
estimates out several years.  4 sites with one with over 254 hosts ….

> --
> Jon Lewis, MCP :)   |  I route
> StackPath, Sr. Neteng   |  therefore you are
> _ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_

-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742  INTERNET: ma...@isc.org

Re: IPv4 and Auctions

[Jon Lewis]

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, Matt Hoppes wrote:


A thought crossed my mind the other day as I was having a discussion with 
someone.

Every entity is suppose to justify their need for IPv4 address space from ARIN. 
This was always (in recent history) the case.

No entity is suppose to be given more IPv4 space until they have nearly 
exhausted their previous space.

How is it, then, that we daily for the last 2-3 years have places like Hilco 
that have sometimes 15-20 large IPv4 blocks up for auction?

Supposedly we are completely out of IPv4 space, yet every day large blocks are 
being sold for money, yet they were never returned because they weren’t needed.

Another thought: being that IPv4 address space is essentially leased to you 
from ARIN, can you even legally auction your space to someone else? I know it’s 
happening, but it would almost be like me auctioning my apartment to another 
random person.


There are probably more qualified people who can answer this, but lots of 
IP space was handed out to organizations (and even to individuals) long 
before the RIRs like ARIN were created.  Those "assignments" / 
"allocations" (whatever you want to call them) are outside of the control 
of the RIRs because they had no involvement in them.


With more recent IP spaces that were first assigned/allocated by an RIR 
and are therefore regulated by the RIRs, I believe purchases of those IP 
blocks are contingent on getting RIR approval for the transfer, meaning 
the buyer, in addition to paying the seller, would have to justify their 
need to the appropriate RIR and get the RIR's blessing on the transfer.


--
 Jon Lewis, MCP :)   |  I route
 StackPath, Sr. Neteng   |  therefore you are
_ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_