On 03/03/2015 08:07 AM, Scott Helms wrote:
I'm not done collecting all of our data yet, but just looking at what we
have right now (~17,000 APs) over half of the clients connected have an
upload rate of 5mbps or less. A just over 20% have an average upload rate
of 1mbps.
BTW, the reason we're w
I wasn't being funny. :-)
That was about a quarter to a third of a /wonderful/ #takethat to the *AA...
On April 23, 2015 10:17:51 AM EDT, Ray Soucy wrote:
>Sorry, I know I get long-winded. That's why I don't post as much as I
>used
>to. ;-)
>
>On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 10:09 AM, Jay Ashworth wro
Sorry, I know I get long-winded. That's why I don't post as much as I used
to. ;-)
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 10:09 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
> There's an op-ed piece in this posting, Ray. Do you want to write it, or
> should I?
>
> :-)
>
>
> On April 23, 2015 10:06:42 AM EDT, Ray Soucy wrote:
>>
>
There's an op-ed piece in this posting, Ray. Do you want to write it, or should
I?
:-)
On April 23, 2015 10:06:42 AM EDT, Ray Soucy wrote:
>It's amazing, really.
>
>Netflix and YouTube now overtake BitTorrent and all other file sharing
>peer-to-peer traffic combined, even on academic networks,
It's amazing, really.
Netflix and YouTube now overtake BitTorrent and all other file sharing
peer-to-peer traffic combined, even on academic networks, by order(s) of
magnitude. The amount of peer-to-peer traffic is not even significant in
comparison. It might as well be IRC from our perspective.
- Original Message -
> From: "Frank Bulk"
> Those are measured at the campus boundary. I don't have visibility inside
> the school's network to know who much intra-campus traffic there may be .
> but we know that peer-to-peer is a small percentage of overall Internet
> traffic flows, and
k
From: James R Cutler [mailto:james.cut...@consultant.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2015 8:51 AM
To: Frank Bulk
Cc: NANOG
Subject: Re: symmetric vs. asymmetric [was: Verizon Policy Statement on Net
Neutrality]
Frank,
Are your measurements taken at the campus boundary or within the camp
Frank,
Are your measurements taken at the campus boundary or within the campus network?
I remember the confusion when Centrex was first introduced at UMich. The
statistic there that confounded was call durations wildly exceeding models, but
mostly within the campus, not to the outside world. C
symmetric speeds, they're not showing a distinctively heavier symmetricity.
Frank
-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Mark Andrews
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 4:57 PM
To: Scott Helms
Cc: NANOG
Subject: Re: symmetric vs. asymmetric [was: Verizon P
On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 8:39 AM, Nick Hilliard wrote:
> On 04/03/2015 16:26, Dave Taht wrote:
>> A geeky household with dad doing skype, mom uploading to facebook, a
>> kid doing a game, and another kid doing netflix, however, is common.
>> And, it is truly amazing how many households have more tha
On 04/03/2015 16:26, Dave Taht wrote:
> A geeky household with dad doing skype, mom uploading to facebook, a
> kid doing a game, and another kid doing netflix, however, is common.
> And, it is truly amazing how many households have more than one device
> per person nowadays.
and $kid running a bit
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 5:07 AM, Scott Helms wrote:
>>
>> I don't know many schools that are open at midnight to accept thumb
>> drives.
>
> I think he was trying to point out that most school libraries, and their
> computer labs, open before classes start. Ice never heard of a school
> deadline t
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 8:06 PM, Chuck Church wrote:
> Since this has turned into a discussion on upload vs download speed,
> figured I'd throw in a point I haven't really brought up. For the most part,
> uploading isn't really a time-sensitive activity to the general (as in 99% of
> th
On 03/03/2015 08:07 AM, Scott Helms wrote:
For consumers to care about symmetrical upload speeds as much as you're
saying why have they been choosing to use technologies that don't deliver
that in WiFi and LTE?
For consumers to have choice, there must be an available alternative
that is affordab
In message
, Scott Helms writes:
> > I don't know many schools that are open at midnight to accept thumb
> > drives.
>
> I think he was trying to point out that most school libraries, and their
> computer labs, open before classes start. Ice never heard of a school
> deadline that was actually
On 3/2/2015 11:14 PM, Mark Andrews wrote:
If the network supported it this would be typical of a household with
teenagers. People adapt their usage to the constraints presented. That
doesn't mean they are necessarially happy with the constraints. Don't
take lack of complaints as indicating peop
imho this two staments are true:
- tomorrow a new product or service on the Internet can completely
change the ratio download/upload
- most probably, this will not happen
It may take a few days (hours for early adopters) for a new service to
become popular on the Internet, that make a intensive us
>
> I don't know many schools that are open at midnight to accept thumb
> drives.
I think he was trying to point out that most school libraries, and their
computer labs, open before classes start. Ice never heard of a school
deadline that was actually in the middle of the night, so if you're work
In message <54f57656.2010...@satchell.net>, Stephen Satchell writes:
> On 03/02/2015 09:14 PM, Mark Andrews wrote:
> > Just tell that to your child that has to submit a assignment before
> > midnight or get zero on 20% of the year's marks. There are plenty
> > of cases where uploads are time crit
On 03/02/2015 09:14 PM, Mark Andrews wrote:
> Just tell that to your child that has to submit a assignment before
> midnight or get zero on 20% of the year's marks. There are plenty
> of cases where uploads are time critical there are also time where
> it really doesn't matter.
That's what USB th
In message <000101d05567$74b58530$5e208f90$@gmail.com>, "Chuck Church" writes:
> Since this has turned into a discussion on upload vs download
> speed, figured I'd throw in a point I haven't really brought up. For the
> most part, uploading isn't really a time-sensitive activity to the
> ge
I don't usually chime in on the list, but since this seems to be another
hot item, i'll pitch in my $0.005 (since the $$ has been going up these
days).
IIRC the entire reason we have asymmetry to begin with is because it was
created to resolve an issue with older ADSL hardware. I believe the reaso
Since this has turned into a discussion on upload vs download speed,
figured I'd throw in a point I haven't really brought up. For the most part,
uploading isn't really a time-sensitive activity to the general (as in 99% of
the ) public. Uploading a bunch of facebook photos, you hit up
> On Mar 2, 2015, at 15:40 , Lamar Owen wrote:
>
> On 03/02/2015 03:31 PM, Owen DeLong wrote:
>>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 08:28 , Lamar Owen wrote:
>>>
>>> ...it would be really nice to have 7Mb/s up for just a minute or ten so I
>>> can shut the machine down and go to bed.
>> How much of your do
On 03/02/2015 03:31 PM, Owen DeLong wrote:
On Mar 2, 2015, at 08:28 , Lamar Owen wrote:
...it would be really nice to have 7Mb/s up for just a minute or ten
so I can shut the machine down and go to bed.
How much of your downstream bandwidth are you willing to give up in order to
get that?
> On Mar 2, 2015, at 08:28 , Lamar Owen wrote:
>
> On 02/28/2015 05:46 PM, Mark Andrews wrote:
>> Home users should be able to upload a content in the same amount
>> of time it takes to download content.
> This.
>
> Once a week I upload a 100MB+ MP3 (that I produced myself, and for which I
> o
On 02/28/2015 05:46 PM, Mark Andrews wrote:
Home users should be able to upload a content in the same amount
of time it takes to download content.
This.
Once a week I upload a 100MB+ MP3 (that I produced myself, and for which
I own the copyright) to a cloud server. I have a reasonable ADSL
c
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: symmetric vs. asymmetric [was: Verizon Policy Statement on Net
Neutrality]
I will grant you that, today, traffic is still asymmetric. The ratio of
downstream/upstream is changing, as well as the total amount of traffic.
Who knows what tomorrow will bring? Deve
On Feb 28, 2015, at 7:17 PM, Barry Shein wrote:
> I remember when downloading still images (dial-up days) was considered
> bandwidth hogging and only something very few people did. Of course no
> one did it, it took minutes to download even a rather small image and
> there was little market for
On March 1, 2015 at 09:46 ma...@isc.org (Mark Andrews) wrote:
>
> Home users should be able to upload a content in the same amount
> of time it takes to download content. It doesn't matter if they
> only do this occasionally. Without symetric speeds they can't do
> this. They are being gi
On February 28, 2015 at 17:07 gward...@gwsystems.co.il (Gary Wardell) wrote:
> > Actually, I think the incumbents do get it, at this point - at least
> > Verizon does. FIOS is a pretty nice offering, and they offer some pretty
> > high speeds,
> > both up and down.
Don't hold your breat
Home users should be able to upload a content in the same amount
of time it takes to download content. It doesn't matter if they
only do this occasionally. Without symetric speeds they can't do
this. They are being given a slow path.
Arguing otherwise is like saying that their time is not impo
> From the consumer standpoint, I *really* don't think it's too much to ask
> that when I have the occasional 10 gig image to upload that it takes me <<
> than a full day. This has nothing really to do with symmetry, per se. It's
> the need to adapt to what the traffic is *actually* doing at p
> Actually, I think the incumbents do get it, at this point - at least Verizon
> does. FIOS is a pretty nice offering, and they offer some pretty high speeds,
> both up and down.
I don't know about other markets, but in the DC market FIOS is not with
business accounts, thus you can't get FIO
> On Feb 28, 2015, at 10:59 , Miles Fidelman wrote:
>
> Michael Thomas wrote:
>>
>> On 02/28/2015 08:59 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
>>> 20 years ago was into AOL's prime, so yes they did.
>>>
>>> Great, let's re-evaluate the system when demand necessitates it. For many
>>> systems, it's literally
asymmetric [was: Verizon Policy Statement on Net
Neutrality]
Michael Thomas wrote:
>
> On 02/28/2015 08:59 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
>> 20 years ago was into AOL's prime, so yes they did.
>>
>> Great, let's re-evaluate the system when demand necessitates it. For
quot;
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 12:14:12 PM
Subject: Re: symmetric vs. asymmetric [was: Verizon Policy Statement on Net
Neutrality]
Mike,
I’m probably happy that I am not normal, as are my clients not normal.
Why are you descending to ad hominem rather than facts?
Michael Thomas wrote:
On 02/28/2015 08:59 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
20 years ago was into AOL's prime, so yes they did.
Great, let's re-evaluate the system when demand necessitates it. For
many systems, it's literally as simple as changing how many channels
are allocated to what directions.
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 9:04:56 AM
Subject: Re: symmetric vs. asymmetric [was: Verizon Policy Statement on Net
Neutrality]
On Feb 28, 2015, at 9:19 AM, Mike Hammett < na...@ics-il.net > wrote:
Only have a 25 meg Internet service? Use a 5 MHz channel, not 160 MHz.
So, if I
Mike,
I’m probably happy that I am not normal, as are my clients not normal.
Why are you descending to ad hominem rather than facts?
James R. Cutler
james.cut...@consultant.com
PGP keys at http://pgp.mit.edu
> On Feb 28, 2015, at 1:04 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
>
> Do normal people do it?
e -
>
> From: "James R Cutler"
> To: "Mike Hammett"
> Cc: "NANOG"
> Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 9:04:56 AM
> Subject: Re: symmetric vs. asymmetric [was: Verizon Policy Statement on Net
> Neutrality]
>
> On Feb 28, 2015, at 9:
: "NANOG"
> Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 9:04:56 AM
> Subject: Re: symmetric vs. asymmetric [was: Verizon Policy Statement on Net
> Neutrality]
>
> On Feb 28, 2015, at 9:19 AM, Mike Hammett < na...@ics-il.net > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Only hav
On 02/28/2015 08:59 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
20 years ago was into AOL's prime, so yes they did.
Great, let's re-evaluate the system when demand necessitates it. For many
systems, it's literally as simple as changing how many channels are allocated
to what directions.
By that logic, we would
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 10:53:35 AM
Subject: Re: symmetric vs. asymmetric [was: Verizon Policy Statement on Net
Neutrality]
On 02/28/2015 08:20 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
> I use Skype regularly. It doesn't require 10 megabits.
>
> No, I didn't forget abou
On 02/28/2015 08:20 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
I use Skype regularly. It doesn't require 10 megabits.
No, I didn't forget about them. There's simply not that many of them.
No game requires significant amounts of upload.
I forgot nothing and none of what you presented changes my statement in any
-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com
- Original Message -
From: "Stephen Satchell"
To: nanog@nanog.org
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 10:12:50 AM
Subject: Re: symmetric vs. asymmetric [was: Verizon Policy Statement on Net
Neutrality]
On 02/28/2015 07:57 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
> Over 95% of the people don't do anything of the sort (probably much
> closer to 100 than 95). The most common usage is tablets and phones
> going to Facebook, YouTube and Netflix. Regular consumers couldn't
> care less about anything else. If you think
:56 AM
Subject: Re: symmetric vs. asymmetric [was: Verizon Policy Statement on Net
Neutrality]
On Feb 28, 2015, at 9:19 AM, Mike Hammett < na...@ics-il.net > wrote:
Only have a 25 meg Internet service? Use a 5 MHz channel, not 160 MHz.
So, if I use wireless to my, for example,
On Feb 28, 2015, at 9:19 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
>
> Only have a 25 meg Internet service? Use a 5 MHz channel, not 160 MHz.
So, if I use wireless to my, for example, Apple TV, I should limit the rate
between my file server Mac and the Apple TV based on my Internet connection
speed?
I’m not ce
ssage -
From: "Philip Dorr"
To: "Miles Fidelman"
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 11:15:17 PM
Subject: Re: symmetric vs. asymmetric [was: Verizon Policy Statement on Net
Neutrality]
On Feb 27, 2015 6:48 PM, "Miles Fidelman"
wrote:
>
> Ja
On 28/Feb/15 07:15, Philip Dorr wrote:
>
> WiFi has two separate data rate selections. The download could be at
> 300mbps and the upload only be at 1mbps. Or even the other way. WiFi is
> also half-duplex, so if the data rate is 300mbps, then the maximum you
> should expect is 150mbps.
This i
On Feb 27, 2015 6:48 PM, "Miles Fidelman"
wrote:
>
> Jack Bates wrote:
>>
>> On 2/27/2015 2:47 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
>>>
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>> Let's not go overboard here. Can we remember that most corporate and
campus (and, for that matter home) networks are symmetric, at least at the
edges. P
Jack Bates wrote:
On 2/27/2015 2:47 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
Folks,
Let's not go overboard here. Can we remember that most corporate and
campus (and, for that matter home) networks are symmetric, at least
at the edges. Personally, I figure that by deploying PON, the major
carriers were ju
>> Sorry, no frequencies to play with on Ethernet. Ethernet is a baseband
>> technology (i.e. DC voltage, not AC frequencies) One pair is
>> transmitting, one pair is receiving in gigE. If you want to use both
> >pairs in the same direction to double up the bandwidth, that could be
> >done bu
On 2/27/2015 4:32 PM, Naslund, Steve wrote:
You could do that. The only issue is that you are putting in more intelligent
CPE that has to be frequency agile and signal to the head end what is
happening. Carriers are very sensitive to CPE costs so I don't think that is
likely to happen especi
Completely wrong. Sorry, but most network traffic is not symmetric. In
corporate environments traffic flows much more heavily from server to client.
Home networks are very highly asymmetric because upstream you see URL requests
and downstream you have media streams. PON networks were designe
Even so, what makes the channel assignments static? If the downstream
bands are sitting idle, why can't they be reallocated for use by modems
needing to send more? Or, presuming upstream isolation between modems,
why can't multiple channels be dynamically allocated to a modem when
there is avai
>I'll disagree on the home part. I doubt that most homes are symmetric.
I agree, most homes are not symmetric, the two biggest services are cable modem
and DSL which are usually asymmetric.
>Of course, what needs to happen is for standards bodies to start thinking more
>dynamic when they build
Stephen is dead on here. In DOCSIS the downstream communication happens in
one or more normal cable TV channel band, ie 6MHz channels from 54 MHz to
890MHz. The upstreams will be (in most cases) either 1.6 MHz, 3.2 MHz, or
6.4MHz wide and in the 5-42 MHz range.
Scott Helms
Vice President of Tec
On 02/27/2015 01:27 PM, Jack Bates wrote:
> My 2 cents. I don't design these things, but you'd think people would
> start realizing that static allocation is kind of limiting. Giving
> someone 50mb/s with 20mb/s waste is annoying when they are saturating
> 3mb/s the opposite direction. Wouldn't it
On 2/27/2015 2:47 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
Folks,
Let's not go overboard here. Can we remember that most corporate and
campus (and, for that matter home) networks are symmetric, at least at
the edges. Personally, I figure that by deploying PON, the major
carriers were just asking for troub
Hardened carrier grade Ethernet gear appeared quite a time after PON gear
did and until we got gear that could be deployed in cabinets the cost of
the fiber plant being back hauled to the CO was much more expensive.
Google decided to do GPON purely because of cost, they really wanted to do
Active
Folks,
Let's not go overboard here. Can we remember that most corporate and
campus (and, for that matter home) networks are symmetric, at least at
the edges. Personally, I figure that by deploying PON, the major
carriers were just asking for trouble down the line. It's not like
carrier-gra
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