On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 11:08:49AM -0600, Jack Bates wrote:
911 services are heavily used when a geographical area has an emergency,
and that emergency usually includes not having power.
Yes, and it usually involves several thousand people all phoning to
report the same damned thing, clogging
Folks,
I doubt the incumbents are the most vulnerable in this situation. It is
debt-laden competitive providers that face the greatest difficulty.
Look at balance sheets and who is struggling to generate a profit or who has
never generated a profit.
Roderick S. Beck
Director of European
On Dec 5, 2008, at 9:01 AM, David Cantrell wrote:
On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 11:08:49AM -0600, Jack Bates wrote:
911 services are heavily used when a geographical area has an
emergency,
and that emergency usually includes not having power.
Yes, and it usually involves several thousand
On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 09:21:53AM -0500, Marshall Eubanks wrote:
On Dec 5, 2008, at 9:01 AM, David Cantrell wrote:
On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 11:08:49AM -0600, Jack Bates wrote:
Unless you live in a natural disaster prone location.
So don't do that.
There is literarily no place on the planet
David Cantrell wrote:
A natural disaster prone location would, by a normal person, be
taken to be one where there is a high probability of being visited by
nature's Fuckup Fairies. Such as flood plains (eg much of the Thames
estuary) and the sides of active volcanoes (Naples). Most places have
Also, where I live, if the power goes out hard (for example, during
the last Hurricane),
the cell phone will not have service either.
hello
What about GPS ?
simply sending such data would help more then a unreliable mobile
phone call right ?
(we have enough places where i live and
: Thursday, December 04, 2008 2:11 AM
To: Alex Rubenstein
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Telecom Collapse?
That makes two of us...
Anyways, for residential VOIP, where are we these days with
E911? Are providers like Vonage and such providing reliable
E911 when people call 911? That is one
: Telecom Collapse?
That makes two of us...
Anyways, for residential VOIP, where are we these days with
E911? Are providers like Vonage and such providing reliable
E911 when people call 911? That is one of the major problems
I see with the residential realm going with VOIP offerings...
-Mike
On Wed
Rubenstein'
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: Telecom Collapse?
That is the one and only thing keeping a land line at my home. I
have two young children, and I need to be sure that if something
were to ever happen that: 1.) The phone would work even if the
power was out, or the Internet
Once upon a time, Paul Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
I deliberated for a while on whether to send this, or not, but I figure it
might be of interest to this community:
http://techliberation.com/2008/12/04/telecom-collapse/
One thing doesn't make sense in that article: it talks about POTS
; 'Alex Rubenstein'
Subject: Re: Telecom Collapse?
On Dec 4, 2008, at 7:47 AM, Russell J. Lahti wrote:
That is the one and only thing keeping a land line at my home. I
have two young children, and I need to be sure that if something
were to ever happen that: 1.) The phone would work even
-
From: William Warren
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:02 AM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Telecom Collapse?
Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Paul Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
I deliberated for a while on whether to send this, or not, but I
figure it
might
On 2008-12-04, at 09:47, Josh Potter wrote:
I believe there is a law that requires just that, even if you don't
have an
active service plan the phone must still be able to access 911.
With GSM phones you don't even need a SIM in the phone to call 911
(and equivalent numbers in other
@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Telecom Collapse?
On 2008-12-04, at 09:47, Josh Potter wrote:
I believe there is a law that requires just that, even if you don't
have an
active service plan the phone must still be able to access 911.
With GSM phones you don't even need a SIM in the phone to call 911
That is the one and only thing keeping a land line at my home. I
have two young children, and I need to be sure that if something
were to ever happen that: 1.) The phone would work even if the
power was out, or the Internet connectivity was flaking out.
2.) 911 would function exactly the way
Once upon a time, Paul Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
What worries me the most is a power outage longer than say 8 hours.
This is the typical battery time at most cell sites, telco remotes and
many telco CO's. Beyond those 8 hours, it's quite probable that the
site will go down and you'll
People have been digging up fiber thinking it's copper anyways, but yeah
that's a big problem.
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 9:43 AM, Joe Greco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That is the one and only thing keeping a land line at my home. I
have two young children, and I need to be sure that if something
Joe Abley wrote:
I seem to remember when I *did* have dial-tone from Bell Canada I'd pick
up the handset and get dead air a disturbing proportion of the time. The
idea that copper wire-line providers are the only ones who can provide
stable telephony doesn't ring true, for me. There's a
Paul Stewart wrote:
There's at least two cell phones in our house whenever the family is
home and I have neighbors within quick walking distance.
That's assuming they're not doing the same thing you are, are home, or
are willing to let you borrow their phone. You're assuming a lot. I find
In my experience with a fiber to the home deployment I feel that the trend
of moving away from the stability of POTS lines for emergency service is
acceptable for most people. Most battery backups allow for around 36 hours
of dialtone. The overwhelming majority of power outages last nowhere near
Solar is civil defence - that goes for Node Bs as well as citizens.
In the UK, I have absolutely no confidence in the reliability of our major
cable op, because everywhere I go I find their street cabinets broken into,
presumably by scum looking for copper (how long will they take to respond to
On Thu, 4 Dec 2008 10:13:14 -0600
Paul Bosworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In my experience with a fiber to the home deployment I feel that the
trend of moving away from the stability of POTS lines for emergency
service is acceptable for most people. Most battery backups allow for
around 36
The ATT (BellSouth) remotes around here installed in the last 10 years
or so typically have natural gas generators installed, and the COs have
a pair of generators for redundancy. Even many of the cell towers have
generators. The telco infrastructure is pretty well backed up (I don't
know
Many proposed regulations are struck down before they become required
regulation. Just like the FCC mandates that POTS and fiber have guaranteed
battery, the FCC will mandate that cellular towers do the same. This is
inevitable. The telco industry is notorious for litigating to death anything
that
Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Paul Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
What worries me the most is a power outage longer than say 8 hours.
This is the typical battery time at most cell sites, telco remotes and
many telco CO's. Beyond those 8 hours, it's quite probable that the
site will go
And it gets better:
ATT to reduce workforce by 12,000 - ATT Inc. will layoff 12,000 of its
employees, or 4 percent of its total workforce, in response to recent economic
pressures.
Sprint/Nextel has had negative net income of $326mm, $829mm, and $505mm for the
last three quarters.
Verizon
On 2008-12-04, at 11:06, Chris Marlatt wrote:
That's assuming they're not doing the same thing you are, are home, or
are willing to let you borrow their phone. You're assuming a lot. I
find
it surprising that many people replying haven't kept a 911 only POTS
line.
This is straying far
Paul Bosworth wrote:
On a personal note, when I worked in telecom I never once saw a cell tower
that was down due to power loss. Every tower I have worked with had some
form of power generation, be it natural gas or diesel. In addition, as a
cellular service consumer I have also never
There will always be exceptions to the rule. Nature can be quite ugly to
service infrastructure and the best service providers can do is pull double
duty to get services back up as quickly as possible. As you said, cellular
was torn up pretty badly, but then again so was the power grid and the
On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 22:59:00 PST, Paul Ferguson said:
I deliberated for a while on whether to send this, or not, but I figure it
might be of interest to this community:
http://techliberation.com/2008/12/04/telecom-collapse/
The article goes on to quote some other source regarding Hawaiian
Joe Abley wrote:
This is straying far from network operations, but I think 911 generally
engenders an unnecessary degree of hysteria. As I suggested before, the
marketing of this fear from certain quarters has apparently been quiet
effective.
Many will agree with you; unless 911 saved their
Large scale Tesla coils would be pretty awesome :)
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Justin M. Streiner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, Steven M. Bellovin wrote:
What about the cell site? See
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/12/03/ap5776571.html
The FCC proposed in
That the old ILECs are having problems due to the fact that few if any
of them know how to run a decent business is not exactly news. IMO, it
might be best if some of them were finaly placed in the position of
figuring out how to come into the 21st century and actually compete
for business.
But I
For my own $0.02 worth, I would like to point out the kind of
engineering that was done during the days of Ma Bell - when it was THE
phone company, and had the world in it's pocket - was quite spectacular
and resulted in telecommunications systems that largely stood up and
continued
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Wayne E. Bouchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That the old ILECs are having problems due to the fact that few if any
of them know how to run a decent business is not exactly news. IMO, it
might be best if some of them were finaly placed in the position of
I think we've figured out the next get together for the next nanog.
Make sure there is a gun range within an hour drive
On 12/4/08, Wayne E. Bouchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That the old ILECs are having problems due to the fact that few if any
of them know how to run a decent business is
Daniel Senie wrote:
Mike Lyon wrote:
That makes two of us...
Anyways, for residential VOIP, where are we these days with E911? Are
providers like Vonage and such providing reliable E911 when people
call 911? That is one of the major problems I see with the residential
realm going with VOIP
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Wayne E. Bouchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That the old ILECs are having problems due to the fact that few if any
of them know how to run a decent business is not exactly news. IMO, it
might be best if some of them were finaly placed in the position of
On Dec 4, 2008, at 12:20 PM, Wayne E. Bouchard wrote:
That the old ILECs are having problems due to the fact that few if any
of them know how to run a decent business is not exactly news. IMO, it
might be best if some of them were finaly placed in the position of
figuring out how to come into
On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 08:48:27AM -0600, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Paul Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
I deliberated for a while on whether to send this, or not, but I figure it
might be of interest to this community:
http://techliberation.com/2008/12/04/telecom-collapse/
Joe Abley wrote:
This is straying far from network operations, but I think 911 generally
engenders an unnecessary degree of hysteria. As I suggested before, the
marketing of this fear from certain quarters has apparently been quiet
effective.
The probability of any single individual needing
On Thu, 04 Dec 2008 11:18:42 -0800
Michael Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Joe Abley wrote:
This is straying far from network operations, but I think 911
generally engenders an unnecessary degree of hysteria. As I
suggested before, the marketing of this fear from certain quarters
has
I am not sure. Business lines are significantly higher priced than residential
lines and the conventional wisdom was that there is a cross sudsidy. How it
shakes out across all phone lines is unclear to me.
A lot depends on the economic realism of depreciation schedule. I'm not
familiar with
, December 04, 2008 11:06 AM
To: Paul Stewart; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Telecom Collapse?
Paul Stewart wrote:
There's at least two cell phones in our house whenever the family is
home and I have neighbors within quick walking distance.
That's assuming they're not doing the same thing you
Erik (Caneris) wrote:
So it can be argued both ways. Ultimately, it all comes down to marketing and
hype. With everything going to IP at both the core and edge (yes, I chose the
terms deliberately) and analogue-digital-analogue or TDM-IP-TDM-IP
conversation happening so many times, the
]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:24 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: Telecom Collapse?
On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, Frank Bulk wrote:
The ILEC is the carrier of last resort. The wireless carrier doesn't have
to build coverage everywhere. They don't need to serve that hog barn that
requires a 10,000
Adams'; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: Telecom Collapse?
The ILEC is the carrier of last resort. The wireless carrier doesn't have
to build coverage everywhere. They don't need to serve that hog barn that
requires a 10,000 feet copper loop while playing $17/month.
The problem is that whether
The Verizon lay-offs article you linked to (Verizon just laid off thousands
of people
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9900E2DE113CF93AA15751C1A9649C8B63)
in the blog post is dated December 29, *2002*
Cheers,
Jayfar
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:36 PM, Jim Cowie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Lorell Hathcock wrote:
The classic problem of the ILECs is that they have a government backed
monopoly on the local loops everywhere and they leverage that monopoly to
compete with companies that don't have government backing.
Monopoly? Really? I could have sworn someone devised the idea of
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -
On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 22:59:00 PST, Paul Ferguson said:
I deliberated for a while on whether to send this, or not, but I figure it
might be of interest to this community:
http://techliberation.com/2008/12/04/telecom-collapse/
The article
On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 11:10:57PM -0800, Mike Lyon wrote:
Anyways, for residential VOIP, where are we these days with E911? Are
providers like Vonage and such providing reliable E911 when people
call 911? That is one of the major problems I see with the residential
realm going with VOIP
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 7:18 PM, Michael Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
We haven't really had a major catastrophe where we've been totally
dependent on IP yet, AFIAK. Maybe all of the qos, call gapping and
the rest of the stuff the TDM networks do to deal with disasters
will be left in
Lyon'; 'Alex Rubenstein'
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: Telecom Collapse?
That is the one and only thing keeping a land line at my home. I
have two young children, and I need to be sure that if something
were to ever happen that: 1.) The phone would work even if the
power was out
way. (Not that I would have to worry about
hurricanes in the middle of the continental US, anyway.)
- S
-Original Message-
From: Chris Marlatt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:07 AM
To: Paul Stewart; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Telecom Collapse?
Paul
Skywing wrote:
No POTS line here. New office is all VoIP, too. For my own use, though, I'm
sticking with cell. Don't recall the last time that there was an outage to the
point where I couldn't make a voice call in the past few years (though I've
seen EVDO data go down for my region and
-
From: Mike Lyon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 2:11 AM
To: Alex Rubenstein
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Telecom Collapse?
That makes two of us...
Anyways, for residential VOIP, where are we these days with
E911? Are providers like Vonage
Even disconnected customers due to non-pay have access to E-911
Frank
-Original Message-
From: b nickell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 10:12 PM
To: Russell J. Lahti
Cc: nanog@nanog.org; Alex Rubenstein
Subject: Re: Telecom Collapse?
I believe its still
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:59 PM, Paul Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I deliberated for a while on whether to send this, or not, but I figure
it might be of interest to this community:
http://techliberation.com/2008/12/04/telecom-collapse/
I deliberated for a while on whether to send this, or not, but I figure
it might be of interest to this community:
http://techliberation.com/2008/12/04/telecom-collapse/
Good god. If there is even the mention of a LEC bailout, I am going to go
insane and probably shoot someone (those who
That makes two of us...
Anyways, for residential VOIP, where are we these days with E911? Are
providers like Vonage and such providing reliable E911 when people
call 911? That is one of the major problems I see with the residential
realm going with VOIP offerings...
-Mike
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008
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