RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[adamv0025]

> Eric Kuhnke 
> Sent: Monday, October 26, 2020 6:52 PM
>
> If we're talking about whitebox router and ipifusion, what we're really 
> talking
> about is vyatta/vyOS and the linux foundation DANOS stuff on an ordinary x86-
> 64 server that has a weird shape.
> 
> https://www.ipinfusion.com/commercial-version-of-danos-product-page/
> 
> https://www.danosproject.org/
> 
> In which case it really comes down to how comfortable you are with the
> feature sets of the individual daemons contained within Vyatta/VyOS derived
> products (FRR, etc), and then your trust level in the hardware. Typically
> something such as a Taiwanese industrial/embedded platform manufacturer
> such as Lanner:
> 
> http://www.lannerinc.com/products/network-appliances/x86-rackmount-
> network-appliances
> 
Yes I agree and I have been looking at Lanner (NCA-2510, NCA-2512)  -and I'll 
be thankful if I could be pointed towards other companies "producing funny 
looking servers" for comparison. 
I've been also looking at the whole, a bit confusing, ecosystem of 
DANOS/Vytta/VyOS and their capabilities through my PE requirement optics (i.e. 
MPLS L3VPN, RSVP-TE/SR-TE & fast reroute, NETCONF-YANG) -which these NOS-es 
seem to have very little to no support for.


> I guess the point I'm trying to make above is that **if** you're confident in
> both the SW and HW, you can disaggregate your choice of software
> (vyatta/vyos/DANOS etc) from your own choice of hardware to best fit your
> needs, rather than purchasing it together as a package.
> 
I agree, however I need this whole SW to HW mapping and all associated pain of 
interworking and operational support to be absorbed and nicely packaged by a 
vendor.
On that note, can Lanner fix me up with some DANOS/Vytta/VyOS on their NCA-2510 
or NCA-2512 please? 

Or in more general terms, are there folks out there that specialize in 
providing support for NOS X, Y, Z  with HW X, Y, Z -in any combination?
-so that I could just pick NOS X with HW Y from their portfolio based on my 
project requirements and get similar support I'd get from a "standard" vendor?

adam

Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[Patrick Cole]

I can second that.  Mikrotik MPLS implementation is not good and lacking key 
features (speaking from personal experience also), and has not show any signs 
of improvement in quite some time.

One unit to take a look at for a cheap 10G solution is this:

https://www.zte.com.cn/global/products/bearer/Ethernet-Switch/5960-EN

Many many years ago this was mentioned by some NANOG members (Baldur?) and I 
recall one had said they were using it with some success.

-PC

Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 06:12:10AM +, Philip Loenneker wrote:


>While I like MikroTik, I don’t recommend anyone uses it for MPLS.
> 
>There are problems with the way they handle labels that causes random
>connectivity issues, and can crash MPLS devices from other vendors. That’s
>from experience.
> 
>As an example, check out this post which was started back in 2013 and is
>still an issue in 2020:
> 
>https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=73820
> 
> 
> 
>Regards,
> 
>Philip
> 
> 
> 
>From: NANOG  On
>Behalf Of Tony Wicks
>Sent: Thursday, 22 October 2020 8:19 AM
>    To: adamv0...@netconsultings.com
>Cc: 'NANOG' 
>Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations
> 
> 
> 
>Right, well in that price/performance range you either “roll your own” or
>this is your best option IMHO -
>https://mikrotik.com/product/CCR1072-1G-8Splus  and I’d pick the Mikrotik
>every time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>From: NANOG  On Behalf Of
>adamv0...@netconsultings.com
>    Sent: Thursday, 22 October 2020 9:28 am
>To: 'Colton Conor' ; t...@pelican.org
>Cc: 'NANOG' 
>Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations
> 
> 
> 
>Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally  -$2000 to $4000 new
> 
>-new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the
>mercy of the price fluctuations and availability.
> 
> 
> 
>And the likes of the M2400 looks good 4x10G plus some 1G, unfortunately
>there are no details on the webpage (and the datasheet can’t be
>downloaded… )
> 
> 
> 
>Are there more folks out there bundling open NOS and white-box HW along
>with the support for the whole thing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>adam

-- 
Patrick Cole 
Chief Engineer
Spirit Technology Solutions
19-25 Raglan St, South Melbourne VIC 3205
Desk:0385541391
Mobile:  0410626630

RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[Philip Loenneker]

While I like MikroTik, I don’t recommend anyone uses it for MPLS.
There are problems with the way they handle labels that causes random 
connectivity issues, and can crash MPLS devices from other vendors. That’s from 
experience.
As an example, check out this post which was started back in 2013 and is still 
an issue in 2020:
https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=73820

Regards,
Philip

From: NANOG  On 
Behalf Of Tony Wicks
Sent: Thursday, 22 October 2020 8:19 AM
To: adamv0...@netconsultings.com
Cc: 'NANOG' 
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations

Right, well in that price/performance range you either “roll your own” or this 
is your best option IMHO - 
https://mikrotik.com/product/CCR1072-1G-8Splus<https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmikrotik.com%2Fproduct%2FCCR1072-1G-8Splus=04%7C01%7Cphilip.loenneker%40tasmanet.com.au%7C8ce25b7a3e7a4dbf590b08d876075003%7Cb53dc580ab7847208b30536f36d398ac%7C0%7C0%7C637389121077665349%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=1r2za67vrAwvPo%2BM4Kiq1KDf8eg1bp61NNockBRJKEk%3D=0>
  and I’d pick the Mikrotik every time.



From: NANOG 
mailto:nanog-bounces+tony=wicks.co...@nanog.org>>
 On Behalf Of adamv0...@netconsultings.com<mailto:adamv0...@netconsultings.com>
Sent: Thursday, 22 October 2020 9:28 am
To: 'Colton Conor' mailto:colton.co...@gmail.com>>; 
t...@pelican.org<mailto:t...@pelican.org>
Cc: 'NANOG' mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations

Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally  -$2000 to $4000 new
-new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the mercy 
of the price fluctuations and availability.

And the likes of the M2400 looks good 4x10G plus some 1G, unfortunately there 
are no details on the webpage (and the datasheet can’t be downloaded… )

Are there more folks out there bundling open NOS and white-box HW along with 
the support for the whole thing?


adam

Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[Robert Bays]

> On Oct 26, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
> 
> If we're talking about whitebox router and ipifusion, what we're really 
> talking about is vyatta/vyOS and the linux foundation DANOS stuff on an 
> ordinary x86-64 server that has a weird shape.
> 

Maybe tangential, but to be clear, VyOS is not equivalent to DANOS/Vyatta.  And 
DANOS is a subset of Vyatta.

VyOS is a fork of the second generation Vyatta code which used the Linux kernel 
as the packet forwarding plane.  Control plane integration is based on a 
proprietary scripting language with bash shell interpretation.

The current generation Vyatta is for the most part a completely different 
system.  Some of the changes at a very high level:  Linux kernel based 
forwarding has been replaced with bespoke DPDK based software packet forwarding 
to improve features and performance.  Merchant silicon forwarding support was 
also added to be able to support hybrid software/hardware forwarding paths on 
the same box.  The control plane is a completely re-written event driven system 
using yang as the modeling language to improve features, ease of use, 
operation, and security.  The Vyatta routing protocol stack is proprietary.

DANOS is the open source version of current generation Vyatta, which makes up 
the bulk of the Vyatta code since AT released it to LF.  Active Vyatta 
development on the OSS is done upstream in github.  The major differences 
between Vyatta and DANOS are mostly due to licensing restrictions.  FRR in 
DANOS replaces the proprietary routing protocol stack in Vyatta.  Also, the 
merchant silicon integration in the DANOS forwarding plane currently only 
supports a limited number of Broadcom DNX based systems using OpenNSL rather 
than a proprietary SDK.

From a hardware perspective, Vyatta/DANOS supports hybrid software/hardware 
forwarding environments.  So you could install it on standard x86 system that 
looks like a server to enable software forwarding.  In this environment it has 
been tested to 100(s)Gbps depending on the hardware.  Or you could install it 
as a VNF in the cloud.  Or you could install on a merchant silicon based 
whitebox switch and get hardware based forwarding at the full Tb capacity of 
the merchant silicon chip.  There are install guides at danosproject.org 
 for those use cases.

There are also vendors that produce hybrid systems with large enough punt paths 
between the x86 SOC and the merchant silicon to support true hybrid 
environments where some features/forwarding are handled by the merchant silicon 
and some by the SOC.  One example, in a CPE device you may want local traffic 
routing and filtering services handled by the merchant silicon while IPsec is 
handled in software using DPDK on the x86 SOC.  

Vyatta/DANOS is deployed in production at scale in all of these footprints.  So 
it’s not just for weirdly shaped servers anymore.

-r

Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[Eric Kuhnke]

If we're talking about whitebox router and ipifusion, what we're really
talking about is vyatta/vyOS and the linux foundation DANOS stuff on an
ordinary x86-64 server that has a weird shape.

https://www.ipinfusion.com/commercial-version-of-danos-product-page/

https://www.danosproject.org/

In which case it really comes down to how comfortable you are with the
feature sets of the individual daemons contained within Vyatta/VyOS derived
products (FRR, etc), and then your trust level in the hardware. Typically
something such as a Taiwanese industrial/embedded platform manufacturer
such as Lanner:

http://www.lannerinc.com/products/network-appliances/x86-rackmount-network-appliances

If you look at the results of a linux kernel boot on a Lanner appliance
running VyOS, or a lspci -v, they're not significantly different than
taking a Dell or Supermicro rack server and sticking a whole bunch of Intel
or Chelsio 2 or 4-port 10GbE cards into it. It's just a weird shaped
motherboard, but ultimately derived from an Intel or AMD reference design,
and shares a lot in common in a block diagram with a 1U dual socket server
motherboard from a company like Tyan or Supermicro. You've got ethernet
NICs attached to the PCI-E bus the same as if they were slotted into cards.

Aside from the big names like Quanta, Compal and Clevo who will manufacture
these things for you in a bespoke fashion if you're a big cloud scale
operator, if you google "taiwan embedded industrial motherboard" you'll
find the companies that make most of the x86-64 whitebox router hardware.

I guess the point I'm trying to make above is that **if** you're confident
in both the SW and HW, you can disaggregate your choice of software
(vyatta/vyos/DANOS etc) from your own choice of hardware to best fit your
needs, rather than purchasing it together as a package.

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 1:28 PM  wrote:

> Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally  -$2000 to $4000 new
>
> -new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the
> mercy of the price fluctuations and availability.
>
>
>
> And the likes of the M2400 looks good 4x10G plus some 1G, unfortunately
> there are no details on the webpage (and the datasheet can’t be downloaded…
> )
>
>
>
> Are there more folks out there bundling open NOS and white-box HW along
> with the support for the whole thing?
>
>
>
>
>
> adam
>
>
>
> *From:* NANOG  *On
> Behalf Of *Colton Conor
> *Sent:* Monday, October 19, 2020 4:51 PM
> *To:* t...@pelican.org
> *Cc:* NANOG 
> *Subject:* Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>
>
>
> I haven't tried one myself, but Dasan Zhone has the M2400 and M3000.
> Basically, a whitebox with IP Infusion code on it. New, I think the price
> point is sub $2000 to $4000 new. That's a ton of ports for that price
> point. Anyone tried these yet?
> https://dzsi.com/product-category/mobile-xhaul/
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:38 AM t...@pelican.org  wrote:
>
> On Saturday, 17 October, 2020 00:41, "Tony Wicks"  said:
>
> > Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you
> > don’t. That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with
> > more than one full table.
>
> Bear in mind that the MX80 is now in the EoL process, you have <4 years of
> support left.  Depending on your expected life-time / depreciation rules,
> buying one new right now might be unwise.
>
> Do *not* throw a full table at it (or any of the PowerPC Junipers) unless
> you have a lot of patience for reconvergence, and black-holes while you
> wait.
>
> MX104 is a nice box for getting dual-RE in something relatively compact
> and cheap, and has environmental hardening if that matters to you, but is
> still not best pleased with full tables.
>
> OP could do with clarifying "cheap" :)
>
> Regards,
> Tim.
>
>

Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[Baldur Norddahl]

Does this device have deep buffers?

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 11:12 PM Colton Conor 
wrote:

> https://www.multicominc.com/wp-content/uploads/DZS-M3000_M.pdf
>
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 4:08 PM Colton Conor 
> wrote:
>
>> Well then Adam I would say the Dasan Zhone fits the budget. The M3000
>> seems like a real beast for the price point with 100G ports.
>>
>> Yes, other whitebox vendors are doing this, but they seem to want 2-4k
>> for the whitebox, and even more for the operating system, making it more
>> expensive that Juniper from what I have seen.
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 3:27 PM  wrote:
>>
>>> Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally  -$2000 to $4000 new
>>>
>>> -new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the
>>> mercy of the price fluctuations and availability.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And the likes of the M2400 looks good 4x10G plus some 1G, unfortunately
>>> there are no details on the webpage (and the datasheet can’t be downloaded…
>>> )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Are there more folks out there bundling open NOS and white-box HW along
>>> with the support for the whole thing?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> adam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* NANOG  *On
>>> Behalf Of *Colton Conor
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 19, 2020 4:51 PM
>>> *To:* t...@pelican.org
>>> *Cc:* NANOG 
>>> *Subject:* Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I haven't tried one myself, but Dasan Zhone has the M2400 and M3000.
>>> Basically, a whitebox with IP Infusion code on it. New, I think the price
>>> point is sub $2000 to $4000 new. That's a ton of ports for that price
>>> point. Anyone tried these yet?
>>> https://dzsi.com/product-category/mobile-xhaul/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:38 AM t...@pelican.org  wrote:
>>>
>>> On Saturday, 17 October, 2020 00:41, "Tony Wicks" 
>>> said:
>>>
>>> > Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you
>>> > don’t. That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with
>>> > more than one full table.
>>>
>>> Bear in mind that the MX80 is now in the EoL process, you have <4 years
>>> of support left.  Depending on your expected life-time / depreciation
>>> rules, buying one new right now might be unwise.
>>>
>>> Do *not* throw a full table at it (or any of the PowerPC Junipers)
>>> unless you have a lot of patience for reconvergence, and black-holes while
>>> you wait.
>>>
>>> MX104 is a nice box for getting dual-RE in something relatively compact
>>> and cheap, and has environmental hardening if that matters to you, but is
>>> still not best pleased with full tables.
>>>
>>> OP could do with clarifying "cheap" :)
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Tim.
>>>
>>>

Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[Brandon Martin]

On 10/21/20 4:27 PM, adamv0...@netconsultings.com wrote:

Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally  -$2000 to $4000 new

-new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the 
mercy of the price fluctuations and availability.




Do you want SFP or BASE-T on the 1Gb ports?
--
Brandon Martin

RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[Tony Wicks]

Right, well in that price/performance range you either “roll your own” or this 
is your best option IMHO - https://mikrotik.com/product/CCR1072-1G-8Splus  and 
I’d pick the Mikrotik every time.

 

 

 

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of 
adamv0...@netconsultings.com
Sent: Thursday, 22 October 2020 9:28 am
To: 'Colton Conor' ; t...@pelican.org
Cc: 'NANOG' 
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations

 

Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally  -$2000 to $4000 new 

-new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the mercy 
of the price fluctuations and availability.

 

And the likes of the M2400 looks good 4x10G plus some 1G, unfortunately there 
are no details on the webpage (and the datasheet can’t be downloaded… ) 

 

Are there more folks out there bundling open NOS and white-box HW along with 
the support for the whole thing?

 

 

adam

Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[Colton Conor]

https://www.multicominc.com/wp-content/uploads/DZS-M3000_M.pdf

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 4:08 PM Colton Conor  wrote:

> Well then Adam I would say the Dasan Zhone fits the budget. The M3000
> seems like a real beast for the price point with 100G ports.
>
> Yes, other whitebox vendors are doing this, but they seem to want 2-4k for
> the whitebox, and even more for the operating system, making it more
> expensive that Juniper from what I have seen.
>
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 3:27 PM  wrote:
>
>> Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally  -$2000 to $4000 new
>>
>> -new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the
>> mercy of the price fluctuations and availability.
>>
>>
>>
>> And the likes of the M2400 looks good 4x10G plus some 1G, unfortunately
>> there are no details on the webpage (and the datasheet can’t be downloaded…
>> )
>>
>>
>>
>> Are there more folks out there bundling open NOS and white-box HW along
>> with the support for the whole thing?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> adam
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* NANOG  *On
>> Behalf Of *Colton Conor
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 19, 2020 4:51 PM
>> *To:* t...@pelican.org
>> *Cc:* NANOG 
>> *Subject:* Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>>
>>
>>
>> I haven't tried one myself, but Dasan Zhone has the M2400 and M3000.
>> Basically, a whitebox with IP Infusion code on it. New, I think the price
>> point is sub $2000 to $4000 new. That's a ton of ports for that price
>> point. Anyone tried these yet?
>> https://dzsi.com/product-category/mobile-xhaul/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:38 AM t...@pelican.org  wrote:
>>
>> On Saturday, 17 October, 2020 00:41, "Tony Wicks" 
>> said:
>>
>> > Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you
>> > don’t. That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with
>> > more than one full table.
>>
>> Bear in mind that the MX80 is now in the EoL process, you have <4 years
>> of support left.  Depending on your expected life-time / depreciation
>> rules, buying one new right now might be unwise.
>>
>> Do *not* throw a full table at it (or any of the PowerPC Junipers) unless
>> you have a lot of patience for reconvergence, and black-holes while you
>> wait.
>>
>> MX104 is a nice box for getting dual-RE in something relatively compact
>> and cheap, and has environmental hardening if that matters to you, but is
>> still not best pleased with full tables.
>>
>> OP could do with clarifying "cheap" :)
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tim.
>>
>>

Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[Colton Conor]

Well then Adam I would say the Dasan Zhone fits the budget. The M3000 seems
like a real beast for the price point with 100G ports.

Yes, other whitebox vendors are doing this, but they seem to want 2-4k for
the whitebox, and even more for the operating system, making it more
expensive that Juniper from what I have seen.

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 3:27 PM  wrote:

> Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally  -$2000 to $4000 new
>
> -new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the
> mercy of the price fluctuations and availability.
>
>
>
> And the likes of the M2400 looks good 4x10G plus some 1G, unfortunately
> there are no details on the webpage (and the datasheet can’t be downloaded…
> )
>
>
>
> Are there more folks out there bundling open NOS and white-box HW along
> with the support for the whole thing?
>
>
>
>
>
> adam
>
>
>
> *From:* NANOG  *On
> Behalf Of *Colton Conor
> *Sent:* Monday, October 19, 2020 4:51 PM
> *To:* t...@pelican.org
> *Cc:* NANOG 
> *Subject:* Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>
>
>
> I haven't tried one myself, but Dasan Zhone has the M2400 and M3000.
> Basically, a whitebox with IP Infusion code on it. New, I think the price
> point is sub $2000 to $4000 new. That's a ton of ports for that price
> point. Anyone tried these yet?
> https://dzsi.com/product-category/mobile-xhaul/
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:38 AM t...@pelican.org  wrote:
>
> On Saturday, 17 October, 2020 00:41, "Tony Wicks"  said:
>
> > Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you
> > don’t. That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with
> > more than one full table.
>
> Bear in mind that the MX80 is now in the EoL process, you have <4 years of
> support left.  Depending on your expected life-time / depreciation rules,
> buying one new right now might be unwise.
>
> Do *not* throw a full table at it (or any of the PowerPC Junipers) unless
> you have a lot of patience for reconvergence, and black-holes while you
> wait.
>
> MX104 is a nice box for getting dual-RE in something relatively compact
> and cheap, and has environmental hardening if that matters to you, but is
> still not best pleased with full tables.
>
> OP could do with clarifying "cheap" :)
>
> Regards,
> Tim.
>
>

RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[adamv0025]

Just to clarify what cheap means, ideally  -$2000 to $4000 new 

-new is preferred as buying used kit on second hand market one is at the mercy 
of the price fluctuations and availability.

 

And the likes of the M2400 looks good 4x10G plus some 1G, unfortunately there 
are no details on the webpage (and the datasheet can’t be downloaded… ) 

 

Are there more folks out there bundling open NOS and white-box HW along with 
the support for the whole thing?

 

 

adam

 

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of 
Colton Conor
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 4:51 PM
To: t...@pelican.org
Cc: NANOG 
Subject: Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations

 

I haven't tried one myself, but Dasan Zhone has the M2400 and M3000. Basically, 
a whitebox with IP Infusion code on it. New, I think the price point is sub 
$2000 to $4000 new. That's a ton of ports for that price point. Anyone tried 
these yet?  https://dzsi.com/product-category/mobile-xhaul/ 

 

 

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:38 AM t...@pelican.org <mailto:t...@pelican.org>  
mailto:t...@pelican.org> > wrote:

On Saturday, 17 October, 2020 00:41, "Tony Wicks" mailto:t...@wicks.co.nz> > said:

> Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you
> don’t. That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with
> more than one full table.

Bear in mind that the MX80 is now in the EoL process, you have <4 years of 
support left.  Depending on your expected life-time / depreciation rules, 
buying one new right now might be unwise.

Do *not* throw a full table at it (or any of the PowerPC Junipers) unless you 
have a lot of patience for reconvergence, and black-holes while you wait.

MX104 is a nice box for getting dual-RE in something relatively compact and 
cheap, and has environmental hardening if that matters to you, but is still not 
best pleased with full tables.

OP could do with clarifying "cheap" :)

Regards,
Tim.

Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ID #5475871x3]

[Brielle]

 DO NOT EDIT BELOW THIS LINE 

Assigned to: BuyGoods Support


 
Anyone know what the hell this 
"BuyGoods" crap is on some of the NANOG 
messages?


On 10/19/2020 9:55 AM, Colton Conor wrote:
> BuyGoods
> BuyGoods Logo 
> 
> 
>   BuyGoods Support
> 
>   
> 
> 
>   *Colton Conor* started this conversation
>   Monday, October 19th, 2020, 11:55am EDT 




-- 
Brielle Bruns
The Summit Open Source Development Group
https://u51012.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=kruC0fnA4Hpw17IEn3t97jERGp4RfeNG0-2Fk8Q9pvRCI-3DCwbb_FXQS9GGQnf2NUciIM2Uj1P5Rmzx6-2Fb1NEqYJ37Xi2EYt2clxIm1VxzOOleHBbxauezNpMyGPpwaeZYBsK1lQtQmIuoE4U6y4X2WV7cIGvARKuv3TEYr5iqXFym3RrwUA7ToIVtuvS4QpHxIQX-2B2QUQeuHiKLnrnwwTFIr7krKKoyZUyf86IPNSns1NkWDaqj68FqA0YkxMykX9TQAhkmWUTCtsWxGovfF1-2F91OPdZYKSDznIdBKJLX9FgUmlk3KF7eNzfIHPomxJCjgc4ZpedQ-3D-3D
/ 
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I haven't tried one myself, but 
Dasan Zhone has the M2400 and M3000. Basically, a whitebox with IP Infusion 
code on it. New, I think the price point is sub $2000 to $4000 new. That's a 
ton of ports for that price point. Anyone tried these 
yet?https://u51012.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=EhPlf17glKOZNVwhASoWuDgg-2FgvW5A5MFuGE0qlkslKLqOw6shUYbqzlwICX1qvhfkzHQ5j5B6ePPWlfJr8YyA-3D-3DlPhK_FXQS9GGQnf2NUciIM2Uj1P5Rmzx6-2Fb1NEqYJ37Xi2EYt2clxIm1VxzOOleHBbxaudIgQrL-2FKYhYz8Y0aROjDj-2FUt0CTpTdzmFGjIu1ENj0k6r6jBQEXI1dyQPiabpXKanK91v28EfJ-2FDkpGqkQjcqAJkp0wSGO5CaFjXIL-2FeFgI-2B5fE3RAuN1gghnwMmAV2RRNAsc5exVZ28ai-2FgdLzyrxdy2L3BBkM2cPG3SxWJ78wbgIYuX3J193cF1Vq-2FIuZi50GvrsEOBoj-2FDLokm0MNrw-3D-3D

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:38 AM t...@pelican.org  wrote:
On Saturday, 17 October, 2020 00:41, "Tony Wicks"  said:

> Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you
> dont. That will give you 80gig wire speed just dont load it up with
> more than one full table.

Bear in mind that the MX80 is now in the EoL process, you have  
 



Team BuyGoods
===

Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ID #5475871x3]

[Brielle]

Headers, from my end with the nanog receives removed.

Something going through sendgrid.net, and passes through a mail server 
under the control of cl112rm.com.


cl112rm.com reeks of spam.


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From: Brielle 
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Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ID #5475871x3]
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On 10/19/2020 10:10 AM, Brielle wrote:

BuyGoods
BuyGoods Logo   


  BuyGoods Support




  *Brielle* replied
  Monday, October 19th, 2020, 12:10pm EDT   

Anyone know what the hell this "BuyGoods" crap is on some of the NANOG
messages?


On 10/19/2020 9:55 AM, Colton Conor wrote:
 > BuyGoods
 > BuyGoods Logo
 >
 >
 > BuyGoods Support
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > *Colton Conor* started this conversation
 > Monday, October 19th, 2020, 11:55am EDT




--
Brielle Bruns
The Summit Open Source Development Group
<https://u51012.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=kruC0fnA4Hpw17IEn3t97jERGp4RfeNG0-2Fk8Q9pvRCI-3DUoFa_FXQS9GGQnf2NUciIM2Uj1P5Rmzx6-2Fb1NEqYJ37Xi2EYt2clxIm1VxzOOleHBbxaucxcd8fpX6fPk8brywCYTihXiqDEuC2qzorS3yIX9EXeF-2F9h9f-2B-2B0suHY1lcTXo6-2FFLzEXybdjNCuJjpNrf8RKRI1bFfN9v-2BWnhKYc-2BjcPisBxxAC2tzVwnFXl3S0fZCH3KPwdNw1MHXhXKNu3R6wW89z4hfyzVAbx8sw7rTTtcBIb0QuvUPYEHw3-2Fhvcp2NxE1G8H5oNzEzcGobjdj3pLQ-3D-3D>http://www.sosdg.org 
<http://www.sosdg.org> / 
<https://u51012.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=kruC0fnA4Hpw17IEn3t97o-2By2W-2BpdNZdu4dbQAopyag-3DuawJ_FXQS9GGQnf2NUciIM2Uj1P5Rmzx6-2Fb1NEqYJ37Xi2EYt2clxIm1VxzOOleHBbxau-2Fp91-2FGMGdFrXXwOiQD0UNGBcSq0TBQbxG1md9I0s8RjmanmChq7LpfDx0cuVLU1NRzyffVtYUlXYCUumIn8s0RC8kKVmfCSbfj2V76Vzya-2Fr1yE-2BCAtMvdD8knERCMX3VttLGlZL-2BRAnwtpV098eQLqKyzj1QErmFaGGixaE8w0unkuVsGibyIaQ1e6gUZUDQ-2FIW-2B1CFeF2aBBsucNcM1w-3D-3D>http://www.ahbl.org 
<http://www.ahbl.org>





  *Colton Conor* started this conversation
  Monday, October 19th, 2020, 11:55am EDT   


I haven't tried one myself, but Dasan Zhone has the M2400 and M3000. 
Basically, a whitebox with IP Infusion code on it. New, I think the 
price point is sub $2000 to $4000 new. That's a ton of ports for that 
price point. Anyone tried these 
yet?<https://u51012.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=EhPlf17glKOZNVwhASoWuDgg-2FgvW5A5MFuGE0qlkslKLqOw6shUYbqzlwICX1qvhGrxrQp154CA7oriDMMFX-2Fg-3D-3DBkmk_FXQS9GGQnf2NUciIM2Uj1P5Rmzx6-2Fb1NEqYJ37Xi2EYt2clxIm1VxzOOleHBbxaus-2B1EtfzosBelafnXpBfoBc4kCSoo2Es1gNZvodUFriN-2BXsEavLEr8q

Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations [ID #5475871x3]

[Brielle]

Anyone know what the hell this "BuyGoods" crap is on some of the NANOG 
messages?



On 10/19/2020 9:55 AM, Colton Conor wrote:

BuyGoods
BuyGoods Logo   


  BuyGoods Support




  *Colton Conor* started this conversation
  Monday, October 19th, 2020, 11:55am EDT   





--
Brielle Bruns
The Summit Open Source Development Group
http://www.sosdg.org/ http://www.ahbl.org

Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[Colton Conor]

I haven't tried one myself, but Dasan Zhone has the M2400 and M3000.
Basically, a whitebox with IP Infusion code on it. New, I think the price
point is sub $2000 to $4000 new. That's a ton of ports for that price
point. Anyone tried these yet?
https://dzsi.com/product-category/mobile-xhaul/


On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:38 AM t...@pelican.org  wrote:

> On Saturday, 17 October, 2020 00:41, "Tony Wicks"  said:
>
> > Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you
> > don’t. That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with
> > more than one full table.
>
> Bear in mind that the MX80 is now in the EoL process, you have <4 years of
> support left.  Depending on your expected life-time / depreciation rules,
> buying one new right now might be unwise.
>
> Do *not* throw a full table at it (or any of the PowerPC Junipers) unless
> you have a lot of patience for reconvergence, and black-holes while you
> wait.
>
> MX104 is a nice box for getting dual-RE in something relatively compact
> and cheap, and has environmental hardening if that matters to you, but is
> still not best pleased with full tables.
>
> OP could do with clarifying "cheap" :)
>
> Regards,
> Tim.
>
>
>

RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[t...@pelican.org]

On Saturday, 17 October, 2020 00:41, "Tony Wicks"  said:

> Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you
> don’t. That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with
> more than one full table.

Bear in mind that the MX80 is now in the EoL process, you have <4 years of 
support left.  Depending on your expected life-time / depreciation rules, 
buying one new right now might be unwise.

Do *not* throw a full table at it (or any of the PowerPC Junipers) unless you 
have a lot of patience for reconvergence, and black-holes while you wait.

MX104 is a nice box for getting dual-RE in something relatively compact and 
cheap, and has environmental hardening if that matters to you, but is still not 
best pleased with full tables.

OP could do with clarifying "cheap" :)

Regards,
Tim.

RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[aaron1]

I’m using a pair of MX104’s for 10 gig and a MS-MIC-16G for CGNat integrated 
with L3VPN’s (LDP for label distro), just fine.  About 5,000 DSL broadband 
customer behind them, on a /24 public ip nat pool.  Some nice IP savings there.

 

Can’t speak to your BFP, RSVP-TE requirement as I never needed that on mine.

 

-Aaron

 

Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[David Kotlerewsky]

MX150?

 

From: NANOG  on behalf of 

Date: Friday, October 16, 2020 at 2:59 PM
To: 'Tony Wicks' 
Cc: 
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations 

 

For this particular gig even the MX204 would be overkill in terms of price as 
well as performance. 

Ideally something like 204 but with only those 8 10/1G ports (i.e. without the 
4x100G ports)

 

adam

From: Tony Wicks  
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 10:36 PM
To: adamv0...@netconsultings.com
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations 

 

Juniper MX204, easy

 

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of 
adamv0...@netconsultings.com
Sent: Saturday, 17 October 2020 10:31 am
To: 'Jakub Horn (jakuhorn)' ; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations 

 

Yeah the XR thing would be great but NCS540 would be too expensive and too much 
throughput meaning draws too much power,

 

adam 

Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[Jakub Horn (jakuhorn) via NANOG]

If cisco, I wouldn’t consider 920… I think NCS540 is better option.
XR based, feature rich  and here are different models supporting different BW, 
different port density…
I think price/performance ratio is superb!

For better evaluation you should be more specific about scale, precise about 
required features…..

Disclaimer: cisco employee…..

Cheers
-j

From: NANOG  on behalf of 
"adamv0...@netconsultings.com" 
Date: Friday, 16 October 2020 at 22:59
To: "nanog@nanog.org" 
Subject: cheap MPLS router recommendations

Hi folks,

I’m looking for recommendations on a cheap MPLS router (L3VPNs RSVP-TE and BFD).
Around 60G throughput would do , heck even 30G.
Few 1/10G ports.
But netconf yang is almost a must.

You know something like asr920 or juniper equivalent, but something that that 
is not EoS or EoL
Oh and something not from China (you know, bad PR)…

Any pointers much appreciated.

adam

Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[Ryan Hamel]

It can handle a few full tables, but the performance of an MX80/MX104 is nearly 
the same as the EX4200 switch.

Ryan
On Oct 16 2020, at 4:41 pm, Tony Wicks  wrote:
> Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you 
> don’t. That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with more 
> than one full table.
>
>
> From: adamv0...@netconsultings.com 
> Sent: Saturday, 17 October 2020 10:57 am
> To: 'Tony Wicks' 
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>
>
>
>
>
> For this particular gig even the MX204 would be overkill in terms of price as 
> well as performance.
> Ideally something like 204 but with only those 8 10/1G ports (i.e. without 
> the 4x100G ports)
>
> adam
> From: Tony Wicks mailto:t...@wicks.co.nz)>
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 10:36 PM
> To: adamv0...@netconsultings.com (mailto:adamv0...@netconsultings.com)
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org (mailto:nanog@nanog.org)
> Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>
>
>
>
>
> Juniper MX204, easy

RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[Tony Wicks]

Well, there is always the MX104 (if you want redundancy) or MX80 if you don’t. 
That will give you 80gig wire speed just don’t load it up with more than one 
full table.

 

From: adamv0...@netconsultings.com  
Sent: Saturday, 17 October 2020 10:57 am
To: 'Tony Wicks' 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations 

 

For this particular gig even the MX204 would be overkill in terms of price as 
well as performance. 

Ideally something like 204 but with only those 8 10/1G ports (i.e. without the 
4x100G ports)

 

adam

From: Tony Wicks mailto:t...@wicks.co.nz> > 
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 10:36 PM
To: adamv0...@netconsultings.com <mailto:adamv0...@netconsultings.com> 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> 
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations 

 

Juniper MX204, easy

Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[Brandon Martin]

Most Arista boxes can do pretty much full MPLS (with appropriate 
honor-system licensing) as long as you don't need full-table Internet PE 
capabilities.  At those bandwidths, you could easily get a used box off 
eBay and put it back under support (for more than you paid for the box) 
if you wanted to save some $$$.


Extreme SLX is essentially the same thing with a different badge and a 
different licensing structure.


An old Brocade (now Extreme) NetIron CER-4X (which is still supported 
and sold but nearing end of useful life for most providers) might even 
meet your needs.  You wouldn't need the enhanced route scale hardware 
which makes them cheap on the secondary market.  Avoid the CES even 
though it ostensibly does what you want.  The MPLS signaling on this 
platform is probably a bit more mature but also perhaps lacking some 
modern niceties.  Cost is probably not compelling if buying new, but IDK 
what they're actually selling them for these days.


Don't expect high-touch features like you might get from an ASR or MX, 
but if you just want to push/pop labels, signal L2/L3VPNs, participate 
in IGP with on-net routes, and move data around, they'll do the job with 
decent North-America facing sales and support facilities.


At those bandwidths and low port counts, you can also potentially use 
FRR or Quagga on Linux or *BSD on a suitably sized PC platform.  Linux 
has usable MPLS support these days, though documentation is a bit 
lacking.  One of the BSDs has had it longer and may be more thoroughly 
documented.

--
Brandon Martin

Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[Baldur Norddahl]

Juniper ACX710. Yes it also has more ports, but you only pay for the
capacity you need (100G minimum). So you could buy a license that would
allow you to enable 10x 10G with the 100G ports dormant.

On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 11:57 PM  wrote:

> For this particular gig even the MX204 would be overkill in terms of price
> as well as performance.
>
> Ideally something like 204 but with only those 8 10/1G ports (i.e. without
> the 4x100G ports)
>
>
>
> adam
>
> *From:* Tony Wicks 
> *Sent:* Friday, October 16, 2020 10:36 PM
> *To:* adamv0...@netconsultings.com
> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org
> *Subject:* RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>
>
>
> Juniper MX204, easy
>
>
>
> *From:* NANOG  *On Behalf Of *
> adamv0...@netconsultings.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, 17 October 2020 10:31 am
> *To:* 'Jakub Horn (jakuhorn)' ; nanog@nanog.org
> *Subject:* RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations
>
>
>
> Yeah the XR thing would be great but NCS540 would be too expensive and too
> much throughput meaning draws too much power,
>
>
>
> adam
>

RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[adamv0025]

For this particular gig even the MX204 would be overkill in terms of price as 
well as performance. 

Ideally something like 204 but with only those 8 10/1G ports (i.e. without the 
4x100G ports)

 

adam

From: Tony Wicks  
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 10:36 PM
To: adamv0...@netconsultings.com
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations 

 

Juniper MX204, easy

 

From: NANOG mailto:nanog-bounces+tony=wicks.co...@nanog.org> > On Behalf Of 
adamv0...@netconsultings.com <mailto:adamv0...@netconsultings.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 17 October 2020 10:31 am
To: 'Jakub Horn (jakuhorn)' mailto:jakuh...@cisco.com> >; 
nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> 
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations 

 

Yeah the XR thing would be great but NCS540 would be too expensive and too much 
throughput meaning draws too much power,

 

adam 

RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[Tony Wicks]

Juniper MX204, easy

 

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of 
adamv0...@netconsultings.com
Sent: Saturday, 17 October 2020 10:31 am
To: 'Jakub Horn (jakuhorn)' ; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations 

 

Yeah the XR thing would be great but NCS540 would be too expensive and too much 
throughput meaning draws too much power,

 

adam 

RE: cheap MPLS router recommendations

[adamv0025]

Yeah the XR thing would be great but NCS540 would be too expensive and too much 
throughput meaning draws too much power,

 

adam 

 

From: Jakub Horn (jakuhorn)  
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 10:08 PM
To: adamv0...@netconsultings.com; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: cheap MPLS router recommendations 

 

If cisco, I wouldn’t consider 920… I think NCS540 is better option.

XR based, feature rich  and here are different models supporting different BW, 
different port density…

I think price/performance ratio is superb!

 

For better evaluation you should be more specific about scale, precise about 
required features…..

 

Disclaimer: cisco employee…..

 

Cheers

-j

 

From: NANOG mailto:nanog-bounces+jakuhorn=cisco@nanog.org> > on behalf of 
"adamv0...@netconsultings.com <mailto:adamv0...@netconsultings.com> " 
mailto:adamv0...@netconsultings.com> >
Date: Friday, 16 October 2020 at 22:59
To: "nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> " mailto:nanog@nanog.org> >
Subject: cheap MPLS router recommendations 

 

Hi folks,

 

I’m looking for recommendations on a cheap MPLS router (L3VPNs RSVP-TE and BFD).

Around 60G throughput would do , heck even 30G. 

Few 1/10G ports.

But netconf yang is almost a must.

 

You know something like asr920 or juniper equivalent, but something that that 
is not EoS or EoL

Oh and something not from China (you know, bad PR)… 

 

Any pointers much appreciated.

 

adam