Re: [neonixie-l] Ceramic output capacitors on MAX1771 converter?

['Ian Vine' via neonixie-l]

Could someone explain what the reforming involves ?

Thanks
Ian

> On 20 May 2022, at 06:12, SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F.  
> wrote:
> 
> I've used a MAX1771 with ceramic capacitors a while ago for a 
> pandicon-circuit and a smaller nixie project. Both consume less than 
> 15mA@170V. Not sure how the circuit would behave at more current. 
> 
>> On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 20:03:18 UTC+2 Dekatron42 wrote:
>> A few other things that I experienced at my previous employer was that 
>> larger (sizewise) MLCC capacitors easily developed cracks, came loose from 
>> the circuit board and also needed reforming after storage.
>> 
>> /Martin
>> 
>>> On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 05:01:25 UTC+2 mo...@neonixie.com wrote:
>>> Roger,
>>> 
>>> Yes. Looks like the common dielectrics (X7T, X7R) available in the 250v 
>>> 1-3uf range suffer from a 30-80% reduction in capacitance at 180v. I hadn't 
>>> realized it was that high.
>>> Thank you, I'll look at the polymer caps. It's my last remaining 
>>> electrolytic on my board and if possible I would like to use a solid one 
>>> instead.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> -Moses
>>> 
 On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 7:54:10 PM UTC-7 Roger Brinkman wrote:
 Hi Moses,
 
 What David writes below about the capacitance reduction of ceramic 
 capacitors is correct. 
 I have experienced success using polymer aluminium electrolytics (solid 
 electrolyte) to replace conventional low-ESR electrolytic capacitors that 
 regularly fail in similar applications. 
 You might like to experiment with these. 
 
 Best regards 
 Roger Brinkman. 
 
>> On 19 May 2022, at 12:42 pm, David Forbes  wrote:
>> 
> 
 
> I haven't tried it, but I can make some observations. The MAX1771 isn't 
> connected directly to the output circuit, so it's not likely to suffer 
> from a problem. The current flows through the inductor which will 
> accommodate a momentary short circuit caused by the capacitor. 
> In short, it shouldn't be a problem.
> Bear in mind that the effective capacitance of a modern ceramic capacitor 
> is much lower with a DC bias near its rated voltage, so you would need to 
> use either capacitors rated for 5x the output voltage, or about 5x the 
> desired capacitance.
> Some capacitor data sheets publish this reduction in capacitance as a 
> function of bias voltage, most don't. Look for it.
> 
> 
>> On Wed, May 18, 2022, 6:49 PM Moses  wrote:
>> Before I let the magic smoke out of half a dozen MAX1771 ICs.. has 
>> anyone ever tried using ceramic output capacitors? It wants a low ESR 
>> capacitor, so ceramics may work well.
>> 
>> The datasheet doesn't mention ceramics on the output side.. but then 
>> again it was written a few decades ago when the required 
>> voltage/capacitance probably was not readily available.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> -Moses
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Re: [neonixie-l] Ceramic output capacitors on MAX1771 converter?

[SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F.]

I've used a MAX1771 with ceramic capacitors a while ago for a 
pandicon-circuit and a smaller nixie project. Both consume less than 
15mA@170V. Not sure how the circuit would behave at more current. 

On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 20:03:18 UTC+2 Dekatron42 wrote:

> A few other things that I experienced at my previous employer was that 
> larger (sizewise) MLCC capacitors easily developed cracks, came loose from 
> the circuit board and also needed reforming after storage.
>
> /Martin
>
> On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 05:01:25 UTC+2 mo...@neonixie.com wrote:
>
>> Roger,
>>
>> Yes. Looks like the common dielectrics (X7T, X7R) available in the 250v 
>> 1-3uf range suffer from a 30-80% reduction in capacitance at 180v. I hadn't 
>> realized it was that high.
>> Thank you, I'll look at the polymer caps. It's my last remaining 
>> electrolytic on my board and if possible I would like to use a solid one 
>> instead.
>>
>> Regards,
>> -Moses
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 7:54:10 PM UTC-7 Roger Brinkman wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Moses,
>>>
>>> What David writes below about the capacitance reduction of ceramic 
>>> capacitors is correct. 
>>> I have experienced success using polymer aluminium electrolytics (solid 
>>> electrolyte) to replace conventional low-ESR electrolytic capacitors that 
>>> regularly fail in similar applications. 
>>> You might like to experiment with these. 
>>>
>>> Best regards 
>>> Roger Brinkman. 
>>>
>>> On 19 May 2022, at 12:42 pm, David Forbes  wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> I haven't tried it, but I can make some observations. The MAX1771 isn't 
>>> connected directly to the output circuit, so it's not likely to suffer from 
>>> a problem. The current flows through the inductor which will accommodate a 
>>> momentary short circuit caused by the capacitor. 
>>> In short, it shouldn't be a problem.
>>> Bear in mind that the effective capacitance of a modern ceramic 
>>> capacitor is much lower with a DC bias near its rated voltage, so you would 
>>> need to use either capacitors rated for 5x the output voltage, or about 5x 
>>> the desired capacitance.
>>> Some capacitor data sheets publish this reduction in capacitance as a 
>>> function of bias voltage, most don't. Look for it.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 18, 2022, 6:49 PM Moses  wrote:
>>>
 Before I let the magic smoke out of half a dozen MAX1771 ICs.. has 
 anyone ever tried using ceramic output capacitors? It wants a low ESR 
 capacitor, so ceramics may work well.

 The datasheet doesn't mention ceramics on the output side.. but then 
 again it was written a few decades ago when the required 
 voltage/capacitance probably was not readily available.

 Regards,
 -Moses

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 .

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>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Reboot of an old clock kit design

[Nicholas Stock]

Hi Moses, I'm always a big supporter of those developing kits etc for us
enthusiasts to enjoy.

Keep us posted on progress.

Cheers,

Nick

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 8:13 PM Moses  wrote:

> Nick,
>
> I'm glad you like it! A good deal of time has gone into it so far.
>
> I'm definitely going to open source the ESP32 code, it's written in the
> Arduino IDE and is turning out nicely. I'm sure people will add to it and
> have uses for it other then a clock.. counters, etc..
> I haven't started on any code for the Pi.. but I would image python would
> be suitable and most universal. The Pi code should be a lot less, since all
> the wifi/NTP/timezone stuff is already done by the OS.
>
> Not sure about open sourcing the PCB design. Not that any of this ever
> made a lot of money.. but maybe after I pay a few bills :)
>
> Regards,
> -Moses
>
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 7:45:02 PM UTC-7 Pramanicin wrote:
>
>> Excellent stuff Moses! Will you be releasing plans/open sourcing things?
>> Just curious.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On May 18, 2022, at 17:57, Moses  wrote:
>>
>> You obviously can't just have one!
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 5:36:29 AM UTC-7 martin martin wrote:
>>
>>> I remember that clock!  - I seem to have more than 10 Nixie clocks,
>>> however I would be interested in the new version...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ~
>>> *mcve...@gmail.com*
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 2:23 AM 'Dan Hollis' via neonixie-l <
>>> neoni...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
 On Tue, 17 May 2022, Moses wrote:
 > Now on to the point of this post. Before I order the second
 prototype, I would like to know what people think of it.
 >
 > Comments about the overall design or any specifics, what you like or
 don't like about it. Any changes or additions you would make?
 >
 > There is still time for me to make changes.. so if there are any
 other standard pinouts (like for the light sensor/etc) that I can easily
 add I will. This was my first real experience with the
 > ESP32 board and it works well in the design along with the Pi Zero
 which has a big following.

 I'd like to run IN-18 tubes. Or millclock ZIN-70. Or dalibor's R568M. A
 modular design would be nice :D

 adafruit feather pinout would be nice too. there's a reasonably large
 choice of microcontrollers and devices that use this.
 https://www.adafruit.com/category/943

 -Dan

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Re: [neonixie-l] Ceramic output capacitors on MAX1771 converter?

[Dekatron42]

A few other things that I experienced at my previous employer was that 
larger (sizewise) MLCC capacitors easily developed cracks, came loose from 
the circuit board and also needed reforming after storage.

/Martin

On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 05:01:25 UTC+2 mo...@neonixie.com wrote:

> Roger,
>
> Yes. Looks like the common dielectrics (X7T, X7R) available in the 250v 
> 1-3uf range suffer from a 30-80% reduction in capacitance at 180v. I hadn't 
> realized it was that high.
> Thank you, I'll look at the polymer caps. It's my last remaining 
> electrolytic on my board and if possible I would like to use a solid one 
> instead.
>
> Regards,
> -Moses
>
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 7:54:10 PM UTC-7 Roger Brinkman wrote:
>
>> Hi Moses,
>>
>> What David writes below about the capacitance reduction of ceramic 
>> capacitors is correct. 
>> I have experienced success using polymer aluminium electrolytics (solid 
>> electrolyte) to replace conventional low-ESR electrolytic capacitors that 
>> regularly fail in similar applications. 
>> You might like to experiment with these. 
>>
>> Best regards 
>> Roger Brinkman. 
>>
>> On 19 May 2022, at 12:42 pm, David Forbes  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> I haven't tried it, but I can make some observations. The MAX1771 isn't 
>> connected directly to the output circuit, so it's not likely to suffer from 
>> a problem. The current flows through the inductor which will accommodate a 
>> momentary short circuit caused by the capacitor. 
>> In short, it shouldn't be a problem.
>> Bear in mind that the effective capacitance of a modern ceramic capacitor 
>> is much lower with a DC bias near its rated voltage, so you would need to 
>> use either capacitors rated for 5x the output voltage, or about 5x the 
>> desired capacitance.
>> Some capacitor data sheets publish this reduction in capacitance as a 
>> function of bias voltage, most don't. Look for it.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 18, 2022, 6:49 PM Moses  wrote:
>>
>>> Before I let the magic smoke out of half a dozen MAX1771 ICs.. has 
>>> anyone ever tried using ceramic output capacitors? It wants a low ESR 
>>> capacitor, so ceramics may work well.
>>>
>>> The datasheet doesn't mention ceramics on the output side.. but then 
>>> again it was written a few decades ago when the required 
>>> voltage/capacitance probably was not readily available.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> -Moses
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "neonixie-l" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/7ae38dca-64ca-459d-a1e5-283a062f8f9en%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>> -- 
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>>

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