Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Bill Notfaded]

I just bought another one of those power supplies Paul!  They're awesome and 
work perfectly for what we love!  The ten turn potentiometers and going up to 
500 volts works great for even dekatrons!  I like the design of them too... 
they have that old school feel with the knobs, build quality, solid, strong... 
even the handle on top is awesome!  The outputs fit the standard two banana 
plug connectors.  What more could you ask for except maybe size but with those 
beautiful big LED displays I say bring it on brother!  Had anyone made a six 
digit clock with that IN-28 boards yet?  Wow it's BIG but hot dang!!!  That's 
some cool stuff there!!!  I love it!!

Bill

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Paul Andrews]

It actually looks like the diodes are used for tubes that are shared between 
segments.

> On Oct 9, 2019, at 4:14 PM, Tyler Bourne  wrote:
> 
> 
> Nice boards.  Looks like they are driven quite differently than mine.  Diode 
> steering maybe?
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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Tyler Bourne]

Nice boards.  Looks like they are driven quite differently than mine.  
Diode steering maybe?

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Keith Moore]

Indeed, I like these nixies. If you make a board, I'll get some more 28's 
and build it. This is a FANTASTIC find!  Congratulations! 


On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 12:15:55 PM UTC-4, Tyler Bourne wrote:
>
> The clock has arrived!  It's Huge!  
> It seems like the clock was in the process of being stripped for parts 
> when it was saved.  The tens of hours board was covered in nasty flux, 
> probably the plumbing kind.  I've cleaned it up and put it back in.
> I've created a schematic for the display board and will start working on a 
> replacement.  While the display boards are all the same the control boards 
> attached to the back of them are all different depending on which digits 
> are needed.  I can tell this is a 12 hour clock since the tens of hours 
> digit can't form a 2, interestingly most for the tubes on that board have 
> never been used.
> Since the display boards and the controller boards are separate I can 
> replicate the display board the way it is.  I will create a replacement 
> control board for my clock and will also create a more modern control board 
> for use with the spare display boards I will have. 
>
> The IN-28 is an odd nixie, it runs at a higher voltage and has a control 
> grid.  All the groups of control grids are connected to the HV supply 
> through a 3.9M resistor and to the chips through a 1M resistor.  I'll have 
> to figure out what all these chips are and find a modern equivalent.
> If any Russian speaking members of the group can help identifying the 
> chips I would be super grateful.
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Tyler Bourne]

Adventures with IN-28s.

I have determined that in this clock the IN-28s are operated in the 
following way:

The anode is connected to half wave rectified 240V AC, the cathode is 
grounded through a 4.7K resistor.
The grid is connected to the control board through a 1M resistor with a 
3.9M pulldown.  I assume the grid voltage is around 160-170V

The original transformer is gone so I will have to make a new one.  This 
isn't too bad since I can make it with a 120V primary.

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RE: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Konstantin]

No, It does not. It says that  picture 1.15 is for K133LA3/K155LA3

 

And you are right К134ЛБ1  is 2 2input NAND gates and 2 2input NOR gates

 

From: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Tyler Bourne
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2019 10:18 PM
To: neonixie-l
Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

 

Odd this site shows the К134ЛБ1 as  quad NAND gates?

http://ivatv.narod.ru/zifrovaja_texnika/1_02.htm

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<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/08e67efc-5655-4222-8597-79c87eeb541c%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email_source=footer>
 .

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Tyler Bourne]

Odd this site shows the К134ЛБ1 as  quad NAND gates?
http://ivatv.narod.ru/zifrovaja_texnika/1_02.htm

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Tyler Bourne]

Thanks Dekatron42  didn't know of that list.
Google translate does give me some information but it can still be hard to 
follow since Google translate is not very good with technical documents.

Thanks again Kosbo, the translation makes more sense now.  Too bad the old 
datasheet doesn't list which pins are for which gate lol.  I'll have to 
power up the board and probe it.

So a К134ЛБ1 would be 2 2input NAND gates and 2 2input NOR 
gates.  https://eandc.ru/catalog/detail.php?ID=6671

Thanks for all the help.

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[kosbo.com]

No, it's not  quad NOR gates.

Looks like  It has 3 different elements in one case:

4inputs NOR gate
4inputs NAND gate
1input inverter





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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Dekatron42]

There is a list here of Russian ic's showing which western TTL ic's they 
correspond to, that has helped me before: 
https://ganswijk.home.xs4all.nl/chipdir/soviet/ttl.htm

Yours are not on that list as they are of a somewhat different type, but by 
using Google Translate with the text in the datasheets or the links you can 
get a somewhat understandable translation, the last link translates to: 

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru=en=http%3A%2F%2Fielekt.ru%2Fproducts_html%2F134lb2a.html

translating the PDF-file results in:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru=en=https%3A%2F%2Feandc.ru%2Fpdf%2Fmikroskhema%2Fk134rm1.pdf

/Martin

On Wednesday, 31 July 2019 19:45:52 UTC+2, Tyler Bourne wrote:
>
> Thank you both!
>
> One more i'm not totally sure of:
> http://ielekt.ru/products_html/134lb2a.html
>
> Might be quad NOR gates?
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Tyler Bourne]

Thank you both!

One more i'm not totally sure of:
http://ielekt.ru/products_html/134lb2a.html

Might be quad NOR gates?

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[kosbo.com]

I do speak Russian and Yes Mike is right, it's  quad D-type flip flop with 
TTL level input/outputs... 

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[n1ist]

I don't speak Russian, but it looks like a quad D-type flip flop.  Almost 
like a 74LS175 but that has a common clock while the part in question has 
separate clocks per pair of flops.  I guess you could try a pair of 74LS74
/mike

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 8:59:00 PM UTC-4, Tyler Bourne wrote:
>
> I've gotten back to work on fixing this clock but I'm stuck on a chip.
>
> It's a 134РМ1.  I found a sort of datasheet here:  
> https://eandc.ru/pdf/mikroskhema/k134rm1.pdf
>
> Translation doesn't really help much with this one though, something about 
> storage elements.
>
> Can any of our Russian speakers help me out?
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Tyler Bourne]

I've gotten back to work on fixing this clock but I'm stuck on a chip.

It's a 134РМ1.  I found a sort of datasheet here:  
https://eandc.ru/pdf/mikroskhema/k134rm1.pdf

Translation doesn't really help much with this one though, something about 
storage elements.

Can any of our Russian speakers help me out?

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Bill Notfaded]

When I was in college at OSU we ran a 12 node ringdown BBS with all USR 16.8 
modems.  We used node PC's connected by netware 3.1. Each PC ran two USR 16.8 
modems online simultaneously and we had 6 node machines on the network.  We ran 
a proprietary underground BBS software called celerity.  Most days our 12 
telephone line were tied up and we had people calling our BBS from all over the 
world.  Our project was self funded by our members who would donate $ and 
hardware to our project.  It was a lot of fun.  It's funny when we had the 
phone company come to the house we were living in.  They mounted a box on the 
brick wall outside the second story window that could contain up to 128 phone 
lines to host our 12 phone line ringdown.

US Robotics were the Kings of modems... Every BBS like ours ran USR 16.8 
because while everyone else had 14.4k or slower modems we could all talk 
16.8k... the good ol' days for sure!

Bill

Fixed some phone spelling errors that irritated me.. 

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Bill Notfaded]

When I was in college at OSU we ran a 12 node ringdown BBS with all USR
16.8 modems.  We used node PC's connected by netware 3.1. Each PC ran two
USR 16.8 modems online simultaneously and we had 6 node machines on the
network.  We ran a proprietary underground BBS software called celerity.
Most days our 12 telephone line where tied up and we had people calling our
BBS from all over the world.  Our project was stuff funded by our members
who would donate $ and hardware to our project.  It was a lot of fun.  It's
funny when we had the phone company come to the house we were living in.
They mounted a box on the brick wall outside the second story window that
could contain up to 128 phone lines to host our 12 phone line ringdown.

US Robotics were the Kings of modems... Every BBS like ours ran USR 16.8
because while everyone else had 14.4k or slower modems we could all talk
16.8k... the good ol' days for sure!

Bill
Bill

On Fri, May 31, 2019, 8:50 PM Terry Kennedy  wrote:

> On Friday, May 31, 2019 at 11:02:10 PM UTC-4, charles wrote:
>>
>> I was always sad about Gandalf, they kinda Zigged when everyone else
>> zagged.  Way Back when I recall showing one of their engineers one of
>> the First HAYES modems -and I asked why Gandalf was not in the market.
>> He answered that PCs were Kids stuff, and that they only made products
>> for data centers.
>>
>
> To be fair, that wasn't just Gandalf - that was the mind-set of most of
> the industry. In the product space that Gandalf occupied there were also
> companies like Case and DCA, neither of whom were able to successfully
> transition to the new market. DCA did a quick save by purchasing the IRMA
> company, who made 3270 adapters for PCs (and later Macs and also standalone
> units). So they had a new market, pretty much all to themselves, while
> continuing to have sales / support income from legacy customers.
>
> On the other hand, those established companies were selling their products
> at much higher prices (the 4-port terminal-side board for the PACX IV was
> $600, and most of that was profit) and they also had partnerships with
> established modem vendors like ComData and perhaps didn't want to disrupt
> those deals in order to get into a very price-sensitive market of unknown
> (at the time) size.
>
> There wasn't a lot of movement in the other direction - of the early
> low-end modem makers, US Robotics was probably the only one to get any sort
> of sizable penetration of the host-side market. Part of this was a complete
> lack of understanding about how sales were made on the host side - I don't
> think any of the low-end modem makers offered reasonable quantity discounts
> to end users, none offered lease / financing options, and all of them
> wanted MORE for a rackmount unit (which was a bare board - no case, manual,
> software, power adapter, cables, etc.) than they wanted for a standalone
> unit, and of course they also wanted big $ for the rackmount chassis. The
> sole example was Microcom, who graciously sold their rackmount modems for
> the same price as the standalone models.
>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Terry Kennedy]

On Friday, May 31, 2019 at 11:02:10 PM UTC-4, charles wrote:
>
> I was always sad about Gandalf, they kinda Zigged when everyone else 
> zagged.  Way Back when I recall showing one of their engineers one of 
> the First HAYES modems -and I asked why Gandalf was not in the market. 
> He answered that PCs were Kids stuff, and that they only made products 
> for data centers. 
>

To be fair, that wasn't just Gandalf - that was the mind-set of most of the 
industry. In the product space that Gandalf occupied there were also 
companies like Case and DCA, neither of whom were able to successfully 
transition to the new market. DCA did a quick save by purchasing the IRMA 
company, who made 3270 adapters for PCs (and later Macs and also standalone 
units). So they had a new market, pretty much all to themselves, while 
continuing to have sales / support income from legacy customers.

On the other hand, those established companies were selling their products 
at much higher prices (the 4-port terminal-side board for the PACX IV was 
$600, and most of that was profit) and they also had partnerships with 
established modem vendors like ComData and perhaps didn't want to disrupt 
those deals in order to get into a very price-sensitive market of unknown 
(at the time) size.

There wasn't a lot of movement in the other direction - of the early 
low-end modem makers, US Robotics was probably the only one to get any sort 
of sizable penetration of the host-side market. Part of this was a complete 
lack of understanding about how sales were made on the host side - I don't 
think any of the low-end modem makers offered reasonable quantity discounts 
to end users, none offered lease / financing options, and all of them 
wanted MORE for a rackmount unit (which was a bare board - no case, manual, 
software, power adapter, cables, etc.) than they wanted for a standalone 
unit, and of course they also wanted big $ for the rackmount chassis. The 
sole example was Microcom, who graciously sold their rackmount modems for 
the same price as the standalone models.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Charles MacDonald]

On 2019-05-31 10:36 p.m., Terry Kennedy wrote:
 Gandalf Quad PACX IV which was a 1024-terminal to 
512-host-port concentrator. Each port had 4 red LEDs, so a total of 6144 
LEDs. It also had a "lamp test" button. I bet you can see where this is 
going... Those LEDs gave off enough IR that you could feel it from quite 
some distance away 


I was always sad about Gandalf, they kinda Zigged when everyone else 
zagged.  Way Back when I recall showing one of their engineers one of 
the First HAYES modems -and I asked why Gandalf was not in the market. 
He answered that PCs were Kids stuff, and that they only made products 
for data centers.


I also recall lightly  hacking a PACX one time.  The computer I wanted 
at a certain local site had limited dial up lines, but the site where it 
was had other lines for commercial users - dialing up that line the PACX 
asked me to provide the "CLASS" I wanted and was happy to connect me.


--
Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario
cm...@zeusprune.ca  Just Beyond the Fringe
No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Terry Kennedy]

On Thursday, May 30, 2019 at 5:59:48 PM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>
> My big clock simulates clock-hands with 306 NE-2H bulbs; during self-test, 
> all of them light-up and you can actually *feel* the light on your face. 
> It's a weird sensation because the bulbs dont actually heat-up and 
> re-radiate in that short of time.
>

When I ran the computer center at St. Potato's (see 
https://www.glaver.org/blog/?p=926 for some background) we had acquired a 
donated Gandalf Quad PACX IV which was a 1024-terminal to 512-host-port 
concentrator. Each port had 4 red LEDs, so a total of 6144 LEDs. It also 
had a "lamp test" button. I bet you can see where this is going... Those 
LEDs gave off enough IR that you could feel it from quite some distance 
away - we'd have people stand there with their eyes closed and hit the lamp 
test button. I wonder how much of the power supply capacity was in there 
just to handle the lamp test function. Of course, IBM 370 systems had 
incandescent lamps and the CPU "lamp test" button would light up everything 
on the CPU and most peripherals - but that CPU had a 3-phase 60A power 
connector.

I eventually got a trade-in credit from DEC to replace the PACX with a 
bunch of DECserver 550 units. Between that credit, the educational 
discount, and some special discounts I applied creatively, they actually 
paid us to take the DS550s. And then we made them haul away the PACX, 
because it was a trade-in after all.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Tyler Bourne]

I haven't gone over the power supply yet.  It looks like the main transformer 
is missing.  If I can figure out what voltages it needs I can find/make a 
replacement. The wires from the socket to the transformer look incredibly thin. 
With all digits lit it must draw around 150-200 watts if each one draws around 
50W.  The draw would depend on the time but I'm not sure how those thin wires 
handled it.  It might have some sort of multiplexing going on so that all 
segments are not lit at once.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Bill Notfaded]

Sounds like you could light up a stadium with it!

On Thursday, May 30, 2019 at 2:59:48 PM UTC-7, gregebert wrote:
>
> My big clock simulates clock-hands with 306 NE-2H bulbs; during self-test, 
> all of them light-up and you can actually *feel* the light on your face. 
> It's a weird sensation because the bulbs dont actually heat-up and 
> re-radiate in that short of time.
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[gregebert]

My big clock simulates clock-hands with 306 NE-2H bulbs; during self-test, 
all of them light-up and you can actually *feel* the light on your face. 
It's a weird sensation because the bulbs dont actually heat-up and 
re-radiate in that short of time.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Paul Andrews]

These things won't light reliably at 175V. In my experience you will need 
more like 240V.

On Thursday, May 30, 2019 at 4:16:46 PM UTC-4, ZY wrote:
>
> What is your plan for powering this display? I ask because I also have 4 
> modules that I'm trying to get to work.
>
> As far as I can see, at 13mA per tube, lighting all 23 digits requires 
> 0.3A, which at 175V is like 52 watts? And that's just one of the digits.
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[ZY]

What is your plan for powering this display? I ask because I also have 4 
modules that I'm trying to get to work.

As far as I can see, at 13mA per tube, lighting all 23 digits requires 
0.3A, which at 175V is like 52 watts? And that's just one of the digits.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Tyler Bourne]

A matrix would be more useful. Could make them tileable too.
I have to make a replacement for this clock though so I will have extra 
7segment boards of this shape.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Nicholas Stock]

Nice. I think a board that can drive a matrix of these would be more versatile?

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 23, 2019, at 13:14, Tyler Bourne  wrote:
> 
> Minutes board, This one will be the one I replicate since it can display all 
> digits and should be the same as the missing Hours Board.
> 
> 
> Mainboard chips
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These pictures should appear full size when opened in a new tab.  I hope.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[David Speck MD]

Tyler,

The board markings are incongruous.

The resistors in one photo are marked R1 through R6. but the character 
"R" is not in the Cyrillic alphabet.


There is also a "V1" designation, which is not a Cyrillic character, 
either.  Voltage would have been designated with a "B" character.


The markings on the ICs are consistent with Cyrillic characters, and the 
IC designs look typical for Russian chips of the era.


It's interesting that there are date codes ranging from '73 to '80, but 
I don't see any obvious signs of rework on the PCB.


Anything else in Russian you need help with?

Dave

On 5/23/2019 12:15 PM, Tyler Bourne wrote:

The clock has arrived!  It's Huge!
It seems like the clock was in the process of being stripped for parts 
when it was saved.  The tens of hours board was covered in nasty flux, 
probably the plumbing kind.  I've cleaned it up and put it back in.
I've created a schematic for the display board and will start working 
on a replacement.  While the display boards are all the same the 
control boards attached to the back of them are all different 
depending on which digits are needed.  I can tell this is a 12 hour 
clock since the tens of hours digit can't form a 2, interestingly most 
for the tubes on that board have never been used.
Since the display boards and the controller boards are separate I can 
replicate the display board the way it is.  I will create a 
replacement control board for my clock and will also create a more 
modern control board for use with the spare display boards I will have.


The IN-28 is an odd nixie, it runs at a higher voltage and has a 
control grid.  All the groups of control grids are connected to the HV 
supply through a 3.9M resistor and to the chips through a 1M 
resistor.  I'll have to figure out what all these chips are and find a 
modern equivalent.
If any Russian speaking members of the group can help identifying the 
chips I would be super grateful.




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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Tyler Bourne]

To see the images at full size remove the =S400 from the end of the URL.

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Tyler Bourne]

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Tyler Bourne]

>
>
>
> 
>














 
 

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Tyler Bourne]

The clock has arrived!  It's Huge!  
It seems like the clock was in the process of being stripped for parts when 
it was saved.  The tens of hours board was covered in nasty flux, probably 
the plumbing kind.  I've cleaned it up and put it back in.
I've created a schematic for the display board and will start working on a 
replacement.  While the display boards are all the same the control boards 
attached to the back of them are all different depending on which digits 
are needed.  I can tell this is a 12 hour clock since the tens of hours 
digit can't form a 2, interestingly most for the tubes on that board have 
never been used.
Since the display boards and the controller boards are separate I can 
replicate the display board the way it is.  I will create a replacement 
control board for my clock and will also create a more modern control board 
for use with the spare display boards I will have. 

The IN-28 is an odd nixie, it runs at a higher voltage and has a control 
grid.  All the groups of control grids are connected to the HV supply 
through a 3.9M resistor and to the chips through a 1M resistor.  I'll have 
to figure out what all these chips are and find a modern equivalent.
If any Russian speaking members of the group can help identifying the chips 
I would be super grateful.

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Tyler Bourne]

I did!
I will reverse engineer it and make a replacement board.  I will order 10 
of them unless anyone else wants to buy(or trade for) some.

In the pictures it looks like there is a board that holds the tubes and a 
driver board on the back.
I will try and make the tube boards as universal as possible so people can 
connect their own drivers.  I might also design a modern driver board as 
well to go with it.

On Monday, May 13, 2019 at 10:11:41 PM UTC-4, Bill Notfaded wrote:
>
> Did you get it?

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Bill Notfaded]

Did you get it?

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Tyler Bourne]

If I get the clock I will have to design a replacement board.  Since they 
come in packs of 5 or 10 I would have a bunch of extra...

On Monday, May 13, 2019 at 3:29:24 PM UTC-4, Pramanicin wrote:
>
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-HUGE-Industrial-NIXIE-secondary-clock-110x40-cm-IN-28-based-magic-eye-/173902111454?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276
>
> Never seen one like this...cool. I have a boat load of these and may well 
> recreate something similar...
>
> Nick
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-28's in real life...

[Tyler Bourne]

That is cool!  I've submitted an offer.

On Monday, May 13, 2019 at 3:29:24 PM UTC-4, Pramanicin wrote:
>
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-HUGE-Industrial-NIXIE-secondary-clock-110x40-cm-IN-28-based-magic-eye-/173902111454?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276
>
> Never seen one like this...cool. I have a boat load of these and may well 
> recreate something similar...
>
> Nick
>

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