Re: [neonixie-l] Neon - Argon mixture

[artgod...@googlemail.com]

There are some ideas for creating gas mixtures here 
: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax7xlcFS2QY=567s

On Saturday, June 19, 2021 at 6:23:43 PM UTC+1 gregebert wrote:

> If you are looking for longer life, I dont think the gas mixture will make 
> a big difference. The quality of the glass seal is the most important 
> thing, and I suggest using kovar wire for your leads as it was formulated 
> to seal with glass. Second, you will need a good vacuum and need to 
> bake-out the impurities by running at high temperature. For neon signs, 
> this is done during the bombarding process and electrodes get red-hot while 
> the glass gets to several hundred degrees; one trick is to see if the glass 
> is hot enough to burn newspaper. Lastly, electrode degradation from 
> sputtering will literally cause electrodes to "dissolve" over time, so 
> choosing the right material and adding a small amount of mercury has been 
> done by many manufacturers. If you look thru this forum, you should be able 
> to find a link to a scanned copy of the Weston book (Cold Cathode Discharge 
> Tubes); it's pretty heavy reading but will give you more knowledge than 
> you  can imagine.
>
> On Saturday, June 19, 2021 at 1:25:22 AM UTC-7 ErikPaul wrote:
>
>> Greg
>> I actually contact every supplier of small neon cylinders about getting 
>> the gas premixed, and most of them discussed the difficulties you mentioned 
>> about getting the proper mix in small quantities. The cheapest I could find 
>> for a pre-mix was ~$350, which is quite a bit more than I am looking to 
>> spend on my mad science project. 
>> Nick
>> I found a used diffusion pump on ebay for less than $100.
>> The best idea I have come up with is to try to outlet a small shot of 
>> argon and then fill the remaining with neon up to the desired pressure. I 
>> am using swagelok metering valves which have a rated flow coefficient, 
>> which one might be able might be able to calculate the time/position of the 
>> valve opening. In watching Dalibor's video(his website is the best resource 
>> I've found, but there are two YouTube videos of others who created their 
>> own nixied. One is a Darth Vader including a light saber!) you can see him 
>> using the swagelok metering valves that have micrometer knows for precise 
>> control.
>>
>> My main concern is what the extra argon in the k4 mix would do to the 
>> striking voltage. I could simply use pure neon but that would lead to 
>> shorter life, but as my goal isn't commercial production that may not be a 
>> big problem. 
>> One idea that did occur to me was to possibly harvesr/transfer the gas 
>> from another tube, as I just purchased a large lot of malfunctioning tubes 
>> on ebay. No idea how to accomplish the transfer without needing a pump but 
>> I may try to look into that option. 
>> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 1:54:54 PM UTC-5 nickja...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Okay, so I can confirm I'm not the only psycho with crazy 
>>> aspirations...  Using U glass seems like a very cool idea.  Watching 
>>> Dalibor's videos is mesmerizing and I can't imagine the frustration and 
>>> hours of trial and error he went through.  But that's half the fun, right?
>>>
>>> A diff pump or turbopump setup and I think a way to bake out the tube to 
>>> get that last little stubborn fraction of molecules sticking to the inside 
>>> to release.  Keep looking on ebay and you can find pumps and such.  I 
>>> recently sent a deal to a friend I saw at $250 for a small turbopump with 
>>> controller.  Thought about buying it myself as a secondary, but my junk 
>>> stash is already quite large.  I am buying parts to build a functional 
>>> system for all sorts of experiments and would love to get some glowing 
>>> tubes at some point.  Lasers, nixies, discharge, etc.  Just learning 
>>> machining processes on my 11" Sheldon lathe and South Bend vertical mill, 
>>> both 1950s vintage.  Logan 8" shaper is pretty antique as well.
>>>
>>> As for mixing your own gas, like setting up an aquarium the larger the 
>>> vessel and amounts of gas, the easier it will be to control the proportions 
>>> and get it right or close enough.  Maybe a manifold with gases going in at 
>>> same pressure/flow rates, through same orifice sizes, and solenoid valves 
>>> controlled by a uprocessor to get the ratio you want?  Flow gauges for 
>>> argon used in welding are easy to come by with a little ball that shows 
>>> flow rate.  These might be calibrated for specific gases.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 4:23 AM ErikPaul  wrote:
>>>
 So I've been working on making my own nixies, main dream is to produce 
 a tube using uranium glass tubing in place of your regular boro or soda 
 lime glass. In sourcing fill gases(not a huge quantity of suppliers who 
 sell in small quantities to non-commercial) i keep coming across a mix 
 called "K4" which is 75% neon 25% argon. My question is would the much 
 higher percentage of argon make the breakdown 

Re: [neonixie-l] Neon - Argon mixture

[gregebert]

If you are looking for longer life, I dont think the gas mixture will make 
a big difference. The quality of the glass seal is the most important 
thing, and I suggest using kovar wire for your leads as it was formulated 
to seal with glass. Second, you will need a good vacuum and need to 
bake-out the impurities by running at high temperature. For neon signs, 
this is done during the bombarding process and electrodes get red-hot while 
the glass gets to several hundred degrees; one trick is to see if the glass 
is hot enough to burn newspaper. Lastly, electrode degradation from 
sputtering will literally cause electrodes to "dissolve" over time, so 
choosing the right material and adding a small amount of mercury has been 
done by many manufacturers. If you look thru this forum, you should be able 
to find a link to a scanned copy of the Weston book (Cold Cathode Discharge 
Tubes); it's pretty heavy reading but will give you more knowledge than 
you  can imagine.

On Saturday, June 19, 2021 at 1:25:22 AM UTC-7 ErikPaul wrote:

> Greg
> I actually contact every supplier of small neon cylinders about getting 
> the gas premixed, and most of them discussed the difficulties you mentioned 
> about getting the proper mix in small quantities. The cheapest I could find 
> for a pre-mix was ~$350, which is quite a bit more than I am looking to 
> spend on my mad science project. 
> Nick
> I found a used diffusion pump on ebay for less than $100.
> The best idea I have come up with is to try to outlet a small shot of 
> argon and then fill the remaining with neon up to the desired pressure. I 
> am using swagelok metering valves which have a rated flow coefficient, 
> which one might be able might be able to calculate the time/position of the 
> valve opening. In watching Dalibor's video(his website is the best resource 
> I've found, but there are two YouTube videos of others who created their 
> own nixied. One is a Darth Vader including a light saber!) you can see him 
> using the swagelok metering valves that have micrometer knows for precise 
> control.
>
> My main concern is what the extra argon in the k4 mix would do to the 
> striking voltage. I could simply use pure neon but that would lead to 
> shorter life, but as my goal isn't commercial production that may not be a 
> big problem. 
> One idea that did occur to me was to possibly harvesr/transfer the gas 
> from another tube, as I just purchased a large lot of malfunctioning tubes 
> on ebay. No idea how to accomplish the transfer without needing a pump but 
> I may try to look into that option. 
> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 1:54:54 PM UTC-5 nickja...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Okay, so I can confirm I'm not the only psycho with crazy aspirations...  
>> Using U glass seems like a very cool idea.  Watching Dalibor's videos is 
>> mesmerizing and I can't imagine the frustration and hours of trial and 
>> error he went through.  But that's half the fun, right?
>>
>> A diff pump or turbopump setup and I think a way to bake out the tube to 
>> get that last little stubborn fraction of molecules sticking to the inside 
>> to release.  Keep looking on ebay and you can find pumps and such.  I 
>> recently sent a deal to a friend I saw at $250 for a small turbopump with 
>> controller.  Thought about buying it myself as a secondary, but my junk 
>> stash is already quite large.  I am buying parts to build a functional 
>> system for all sorts of experiments and would love to get some glowing 
>> tubes at some point.  Lasers, nixies, discharge, etc.  Just learning 
>> machining processes on my 11" Sheldon lathe and South Bend vertical mill, 
>> both 1950s vintage.  Logan 8" shaper is pretty antique as well.
>>
>> As for mixing your own gas, like setting up an aquarium the larger the 
>> vessel and amounts of gas, the easier it will be to control the proportions 
>> and get it right or close enough.  Maybe a manifold with gases going in at 
>> same pressure/flow rates, through same orifice sizes, and solenoid valves 
>> controlled by a uprocessor to get the ratio you want?  Flow gauges for 
>> argon used in welding are easy to come by with a little ball that shows 
>> flow rate.  These might be calibrated for specific gases.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 4:23 AM ErikPaul  wrote:
>>
>>> So I've been working on making my own nixies, main dream is to produce a 
>>> tube using uranium glass tubing in place of your regular boro or soda lime 
>>> glass. In sourcing fill gases(not a huge quantity of suppliers who sell in 
>>> small quantities to non-commercial) i keep coming across a mix called "K4" 
>>> which is 75% neon 25% argon. My question is would the much higher 
>>> percentage of argon make the breakdown voltage too high? I found a couple 
>>> of Ne-Ar voltage to concentration graphs but the highest Ar % that they 
>>> show is 5%, but it looks as though the curve trends upwards with higher %.
>>> My main draw to the K4 is it would remove the need for separate Ne 

Re: [neonixie-l] Neon - Argon mixture

[ErikPaul]

Greg
I actually contact every supplier of small neon cylinders about getting the 
gas premixed, and most of them discussed the difficulties you mentioned 
about getting the proper mix in small quantities. The cheapest I could find 
for a pre-mix was ~$350, which is quite a bit more than I am looking to 
spend on my mad science project. 
Nick
I found a used diffusion pump on ebay for less than $100.
The best idea I have come up with is to try to outlet a small shot of argon 
and then fill the remaining with neon up to the desired pressure. I am 
using swagelok metering valves which have a rated flow coefficient, which 
one might be able might be able to calculate the time/position of the valve 
opening. In watching Dalibor's video(his website is the best resource I've 
found, but there are two YouTube videos of others who created their own 
nixied. One is a Darth Vader including a light saber!) you can see him 
using the swagelok metering valves that have micrometer knows for precise 
control.

My main concern is what the extra argon in the k4 mix would do to the 
striking voltage. I could simply use pure neon but that would lead to 
shorter life, but as my goal isn't commercial production that may not be a 
big problem. 
One idea that did occur to me was to possibly harvesr/transfer the gas from 
another tube, as I just purchased a large lot of malfunctioning tubes on 
ebay. No idea how to accomplish the transfer without needing a pump but I 
may try to look into that option. 
On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 1:54:54 PM UTC-5 nickja...@gmail.com wrote:

> Okay, so I can confirm I'm not the only psycho with crazy aspirations...  
> Using U glass seems like a very cool idea.  Watching Dalibor's videos is 
> mesmerizing and I can't imagine the frustration and hours of trial and 
> error he went through.  But that's half the fun, right?
>
> A diff pump or turbopump setup and I think a way to bake out the tube to 
> get that last little stubborn fraction of molecules sticking to the inside 
> to release.  Keep looking on ebay and you can find pumps and such.  I 
> recently sent a deal to a friend I saw at $250 for a small turbopump with 
> controller.  Thought about buying it myself as a secondary, but my junk 
> stash is already quite large.  I am buying parts to build a functional 
> system for all sorts of experiments and would love to get some glowing 
> tubes at some point.  Lasers, nixies, discharge, etc.  Just learning 
> machining processes on my 11" Sheldon lathe and South Bend vertical mill, 
> both 1950s vintage.  Logan 8" shaper is pretty antique as well.
>
> As for mixing your own gas, like setting up an aquarium the larger the 
> vessel and amounts of gas, the easier it will be to control the proportions 
> and get it right or close enough.  Maybe a manifold with gases going in at 
> same pressure/flow rates, through same orifice sizes, and solenoid valves 
> controlled by a uprocessor to get the ratio you want?  Flow gauges for 
> argon used in welding are easy to come by with a little ball that shows 
> flow rate.  These might be calibrated for specific gases.
>
> On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 4:23 AM ErikPaul  wrote:
>
>> So I've been working on making my own nixies, main dream is to produce a 
>> tube using uranium glass tubing in place of your regular boro or soda lime 
>> glass. In sourcing fill gases(not a huge quantity of suppliers who sell in 
>> small quantities to non-commercial) i keep coming across a mix called "K4" 
>> which is 75% neon 25% argon. My question is would the much higher 
>> percentage of argon make the breakdown voltage too high? I found a couple 
>> of Ne-Ar voltage to concentration graphs but the highest Ar % that they 
>> show is 5%, but it looks as though the curve trends upwards with higher %.
>> My main draw to the K4 is it would remove the need for separate Ne and Ar 
>> valves and inlets. My gut tells me that it won't work well but I figured 
>> I'd chuck the question to the experts(you guys).
>>
>> Erik
>> Here is a link to the graph I mentioned
>> http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Documents/SO%20Gas.htm
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/2b40a2c0-8329-4d6f-9c89-93aeba4e0f61n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Neon - Argon mixture

[Nick Andrews]

Okay, so I can confirm I'm not the only psycho with crazy aspirations...
Using U glass seems like a very cool idea.  Watching Dalibor's videos is
mesmerizing and I can't imagine the frustration and hours of trial and
error he went through.  But that's half the fun, right?

A diff pump or turbopump setup and I think a way to bake out the tube to
get that last little stubborn fraction of molecules sticking to the inside
to release.  Keep looking on ebay and you can find pumps and such.  I
recently sent a deal to a friend I saw at $250 for a small turbopump with
controller.  Thought about buying it myself as a secondary, but my junk
stash is already quite large.  I am buying parts to build a functional
system for all sorts of experiments and would love to get some glowing
tubes at some point.  Lasers, nixies, discharge, etc.  Just learning
machining processes on my 11" Sheldon lathe and South Bend vertical mill,
both 1950s vintage.  Logan 8" shaper is pretty antique as well.

As for mixing your own gas, like setting up an aquarium the larger the
vessel and amounts of gas, the easier it will be to control the proportions
and get it right or close enough.  Maybe a manifold with gases going in at
same pressure/flow rates, through same orifice sizes, and solenoid valves
controlled by a uprocessor to get the ratio you want?  Flow gauges for
argon used in welding are easy to come by with a little ball that shows
flow rate.  These might be calibrated for specific gases.

On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 4:23 AM ErikPaul  wrote:

> So I've been working on making my own nixies, main dream is to produce a
> tube using uranium glass tubing in place of your regular boro or soda lime
> glass. In sourcing fill gases(not a huge quantity of suppliers who sell in
> small quantities to non-commercial) i keep coming across a mix called "K4"
> which is 75% neon 25% argon. My question is would the much higher
> percentage of argon make the breakdown voltage too high? I found a couple
> of Ne-Ar voltage to concentration graphs but the highest Ar % that they
> show is 5%, but it looks as though the curve trends upwards with higher %.
> My main draw to the K4 is it would remove the need for separate Ne and Ar
> valves and inlets. My gut tells me that it won't work well but I figured
> I'd chuck the question to the experts(you guys).
>
> Erik
> Here is a link to the graph I mentioned
> http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Documents/SO%20Gas.htm
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "neonixie-l" group.
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/2b40a2c0-8329-4d6f-9c89-93aeba4e0f61n%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

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[neonixie-l] Neon - Argon mixture

[ErikPaul]

So I've been working on making my own nixies, main dream is to produce a 
tube using uranium glass tubing in place of your regular boro or soda lime 
glass. In sourcing fill gases(not a huge quantity of suppliers who sell in 
small quantities to non-commercial) i keep coming across a mix called "K4" 
which is 75% neon 25% argon. My question is would the much higher 
percentage of argon make the breakdown voltage too high? I found a couple 
of Ne-Ar voltage to concentration graphs but the highest Ar % that they 
show is 5%, but it looks as though the curve trends upwards with higher %.
My main draw to the K4 is it would remove the need for separate Ne and Ar 
valves and inlets. My gut tells me that it won't work well but I figured 
I'd chuck the question to the experts(you guys).

Erik
Here is a link to the graph I mentioned
http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Documents/SO%20Gas.htm

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