Re: Malformed site (partly OT).
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 11:47:48PM +, Peter Young wrote: On 21 Feb 2015 Peter Slegg p.sl...@scubadivers.co.uk wrote: Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:49:38 GMT From: Peter Young pnyo...@ormail.co.uk Subject: Re: Malformed site (partly OT). That's interesting, and indeed the site is misbehaving today. Loading those three files and then refreshing the site corrects it, so it does indeed seem that NetSurf is tripping over itself and failing to get the CSS files. Is this worth a bug report? Best wishes, Peter. I have also seen pages rendered without the css but I sometimes see this on Firefox with my much faster office PC. So far the site has always worked for me with Windows Chrome. A bug report has been sent, and the feedback so far is Timed out fetching the CSS file. Sorry if this seems a bit short but its really a note for the developers to remind ourselves what is going on. The missing CSS files in your case are failing to download. The curl library we use to actually do all the http/https network access is reporting an error code that tells us the fetch of the CSS file timed out. This points to a network issue, now that may be an issue with the RISC OS network stack interacting with the remote server or simply a transient error where the connection could not be established. Debugging networking issues like this is very challenging, especially on unmaintained niche networking stacks like RISC OS. TCP/IP is an evolving protocol and sometimes implementations are not completely backward compatible. To properly debug this it would be necessary to put a network protocol analyser on your local network (like wireshark) and perform a full session analysis which might take a great deal of time to decode. As NetSurf developers cannot practically do this at best all we can do is ensure our usage of libcurl is correct and deal with the missing resources. The browser itself is correctly handling the missing resource and showing the page without styling so technically there is no bug within NetSurf. I am leaving the issue open for now as I think Michael wants to use it as an excuse to improve our internal error reporting. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Re) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyo...@ormail.co.uk -- Regards Vincent http://www.kyllikki.org/
Re: Malformed site (partly OT).
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:49:38 GMT From: Peter Young pnyo...@ormail.co.uk Subject: Re: Malformed site (partly OT). That's interesting, and indeed the site is misbehaving today. Loading those three files and then refreshing the site corrects it, so it does indeed seem that NetSurf is tripping over itself and failing to get the CSS files. Is this worth a bug report? Best wishes, Peter. I have also seen pages rendered without the css but I sometimes see this on Firefox with my much faster office PC. Peter
Re: Malformed site (partly OT).
On 21 Feb 2015 Peter Slegg p.sl...@scubadivers.co.uk wrote: Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:49:38 GMT From: Peter Young pnyo...@ormail.co.uk Subject: Re: Malformed site (partly OT). That's interesting, and indeed the site is misbehaving today. Loading those three files and then refreshing the site corrects it, so it does indeed seem that NetSurf is tripping over itself and failing to get the CSS files. Is this worth a bug report? Best wishes, Peter. I have also seen pages rendered without the css but I sometimes see this on Firefox with my much faster office PC. So far the site has always worked for me with Windows Chrome. A bug report has been sent, and the feedback so far is Timed out fetching the CSS file. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Re) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
Re: Malformed site (partly OT).
On 19 Feb 2015, Peter Young pnyo...@ormail.co.uk wrote: [snip] Either works or doesn't work here for me, in a random fashion. Tony's adjust-click on the reload button doesn't work, sadly. I did say 'may':) The site's css files are at http://www.mssociety.org.uk/sites/default/files/css/css_ae906705ee3398da03236704b02fa5cc.css http://www.mssociety.org.uk/sites/default/files/css/css_5109959e3208e96651a9e2f4eb04c72f.css http://www.mssociety.org.uk/sites/default/files/css/css_6caea41da8ff09b5b9fc4ee406a47fba.css Next time you see the duff screen, try launching the urls above. If there is no error, or time-out, it means that files are accessible, but that NetSurf gave up too soon. (Press f8 to see each file's content.) Tony
Re: Malformed site (partly OT).
On 20 Feb 2015 Tony Moore old_coas...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: On 19 Feb 2015, Peter Young pnyo...@ormail.co.uk wrote: [snip] Either works or doesn't work here for me, in a random fashion. Tony's adjust-click on the reload button doesn't work, sadly. I did say 'may':) Indeed, you did! The site's css files are at http://www.mssociety.org.uk/sites/default/files/css/css_ae906705ee3398 da03236704b02fa5cc.css http://www.mssociety.org.uk/sites/default/files/css/css_5109959e3208e9 6651a9e2f4eb04c72f.css http://www.mssociety.org.uk/sites/default/files/css/css_6caea41da8ff09 b5b9fc4ee406a47fba.css Next time you see the duff screen, try launching the urls above. If there is no error, or time-out, it means that files are accessible, but that NetSurf gave up too soon. (Press f8 to see each file's content.) That's interesting, and indeed the site is misbehaving today. Loading those three files and then refreshing the site corrects it, so it does indeed seem that NetSurf is tripping over itself and failing to get the CSS files. Is this worth a bug report? Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Re) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
Re: Malformed site (partly OT).
On 20 Feb 2015, Peter Young pnyo...@ormail.co.uk wrote: On 20 Feb 2015 Tony Moore old_coas...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: [snip] Next time you see the duff screen, try launching the urls above. If there is no error, or time-out, it means that files are accessible, but that NetSurf gave up too soon. (Press f8 to see each file's content.) That's interesting, and indeed the site is misbehaving today. Loading those three files and then refreshing the site corrects it, so it does indeed seem that NetSurf is tripping over itself and failing to get the CSS files. Is this worth a bug report? I think so. Using recent NetSurf builds, I've seen the same effect on other sites, so this may be an instance of a more general problem. Tony
Re: Malformed site (partly OT).
On 20 Feb 2015 Tony Moore old_coas...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: On 20 Feb 2015, Peter Young pnyo...@ormail.co.uk wrote: On 20 Feb 2015 Tony Moore old_coas...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: [snip] Next time you see the duff screen, try launching the urls above. If there is no error, or time-out, it means that files are accessible, but that NetSurf gave up too soon. (Press f8 to see each file's content.) That's interesting, and indeed the site is misbehaving today. Loading those three files and then refreshing the site corrects it, so it does indeed seem that NetSurf is tripping over itself and failing to get the CSS files. Is this worth a bug report? I think so. Using recent NetSurf builds, I've seen the same effect on other sites, so this may be an instance of a more general problem. OK, will do. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Re) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
RE: Malformed site (partly OT).
On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:01:50 GMT Peter Young wrote: I maintain the website of the local branch of the Multiple Sclerosis Society, at www.mssociety.org.uk/cheltenham (NB I am only responsible for the content, not the formatting). From time to time the site gets seriously malformed in RISC OS NetSurf, and then a few days later goes back to what is should be. Screenshots of this are at http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/Chrome.jpg as it should be in Chrome on Windows and http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/NetSurf.jpg as it was yesterday in NetSurf #2600, but it's back to how it should be this morning! Same NetSurf build. Isn't this what happens when a site doesn't respond quickly enough and Netsurf times out getting later parts of the site? (Not to blame the site for the delay - it could equally be any part of the network between the site and NS.) Dave FREE ONLINE PHOTOSHARING - Share your photos online with your friends and family! Visit http://www.inbox.com/photosharing to find out more!
RE: Malformed site (partly OT).
On 19 Feb 2015, Dave Higton d...@davehigton.me.uk wrote: On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:01:50 GMT Peter Young wrote: I maintain the website of the local branch of the Multiple Sclerosis Society, at www.mssociety.org.uk/cheltenham (NB I am only responsible for the content, not the formatting). From time to time the site gets seriously malformed in RISC OS NetSurf, and then a few days later goes back to what is should be. Screenshots of this are at http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/Chrome.jpg as it should be in Chrome on Windows and http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/NetSurf.jpg as it was yesterday in NetSurf #2600, but it's back to how it should be this morning! Same NetSurf build. Isn't this what happens when a site doesn't respond quickly enough and Netsurf times out getting later parts of the site? Netsurf has displayed the page without waiting for the css files to download. Adjust-clicking Netsurf's Reload button may fix it. Tony
Re: Malformed site (partly OT).
In message 44f5489854.pnyo...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk Peter Young pnyo...@ormail.co.uk wrote: I maintain the website of the local branch of the Multiple Sclerosis Society, at www.mssociety.org.uk/cheltenham (NB I am only responsible for the content, not the formatting). From time to time the site gets seriously malformed in RISC OS NetSurf, and then a few days later goes back to what is should be. Screenshots of this are at http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/Chrome.jpg as it should be in Chrome on Windows and http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/NetSurf.jpg as it was yesterday in NetSurf #2600, but it's back to how it should be this morning! Same NetSurf build. I imagine this is the fault of the site rather than of NetSurf, but I would value comments. (OT) If it is the fault of the site, I have a feeling that they may be contravening guidance about website accessibility for disabled people, and I would be interested in comments about this also. Best wishes, Peter. I saved the HTML (using Netsurf #2600 and it apeared to present OK with some very minor problems at the bottom of the page) and ran it through http://validator.w3.org/ It came up with 9 errors. I have not examined these in detail and cannot say whether these are the cause of the problem and I don't have sufficient expertise to comment about the website accessibility for disabled people. However a first step might be to rectify the errors so that the HTML conforms to XHML 1.0 and see whether that helps! Regards, -- Graham Pickles www.whitbymuseum.org.uk Whitby Museum Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. (M. Kathleen Casey)
RE: Malformed site (partly OT).
In message 6fc6549854.old_coaster@old_coaster.yahoo.co.uk Tony Moore old_coas...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: On 19 Feb 2015, Dave Higton d...@davehigton.me.uk wrote: On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:01:50 GMT Peter Young wrote: I maintain the website of the local branch of the Multiple Sclerosis Society, at www.mssociety.org.uk/cheltenham (NB I am only responsible for the content, not the formatting). From time to time the site gets seriously malformed in RISC OS NetSurf, and then a few days later goes back to what is should be. Screenshots of this are at http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/Chrome.jpg as it should be in Chrome on Windows and http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/NetSurf.jpg as it was yesterday in NetSurf #2600, but it's back to how it should be this morning! Same NetSurf build. Isn't this what happens when a site doesn't respond quickly enough and Netsurf times out getting later parts of the site? Netsurf has displayed the page without waiting for the css files to download. Adjust-clicking Netsurf's Reload button may fix it. I have seen the same effect viewing other sites with NetSurf. -- Gavin Wraith (ga...@wra1th.plus.com) Home page: http://www.wra1th.plus.com/
Re: Malformed site (partly OT).
On 19 Feb 2015 Graham Pickles gra...@durain.demon.co.uk wrote: In message 44f5489854.pnyo...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk Peter Young pnyo...@ormail.co.uk wrote: I maintain the website of the local branch of the Multiple Sclerosis Society, at www.mssociety.org.uk/cheltenham (NB I am only responsible for the content, not the formatting). From time to time the site gets seriously malformed in RISC OS NetSurf, and then a few days later goes back to what is should be. Screenshots of this are at http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/Chrome.jpg as it should be in Chrome on Windows and http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/NetSurf.jpg as it was yesterday in NetSurf #2600, but it's back to how it should be this morning! Same NetSurf build. I imagine this is the fault of the site rather than of NetSurf, but I would value comments. (OT) If it is the fault of the site, I have a feeling that they may be contravening guidance about website accessibility for disabled people, and I would be interested in comments about this also. Best wishes, Peter. I saved the HTML (using Netsurf #2600 and it apeared to present OK with some very minor problems at the bottom of the page) and ran it through http://validator.w3.org/ It came up with 9 errors. I have not examined these in detail and cannot say whether these are the cause of the problem and I don't have sufficient expertise to comment about the website accessibility for disabled people. However a first step might be to rectify the errors so that the HTML conforms to XHML 1.0 and see whether that helps! Thanks for looking at the HTML, which is beyond my capabilities. Unfortunately, the rectifying of the errors isn't something I can do, as I don't have access to the site directly; I submit updates though a Content Management whatever. In any case, the National Centre staff are undermanned, underpaid and overstressed, so I don't really want to rattle their cages. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Re) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
RE: Malformed site (partly OT).
On 19 Feb 2015 Dave Higton d...@davehigton.me.uk wrote: On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:01:50 GMT Peter Young wrote: I maintain the website of the local branch of the Multiple Sclerosis Society, at www.mssociety.org.uk/cheltenham (NB I am only responsible for the content, not the formatting). From time to time the site gets seriously malformed in RISC OS NetSurf, and then a few days later goes back to what is should be. Screenshots of this are at http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/Chrome.jpg as it should be in Chrome on Windows and http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/NetSurf.jpg as it was yesterday in NetSurf #2600, but it's back to how it should be this morning! Same NetSurf build. Isn't this what happens when a site doesn't respond quickly enough and Netsurf times out getting later parts of the site? (Not to blame the site for the delay - it could equally be any part of the network between the site and NS.) That's an interesting thought, thanks. The site is very slow in rendering, even in Chrome; it gets very irritating sometimes, when I'm editing it. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Re) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
Re: Malformed site (partly OT).
In article 44f5489854.pnyo...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk, Peter Young pnyo...@ormail.co.uk wrote: I maintain the website of the local branch of the Multiple Sclerosis Society, at www.mssociety.org.uk/cheltenham (NB I am only responsible for the content, not the formatting). From time to time the site gets seriously malformed in RISC OS NetSurf, and then a few days later goes back to what is should be. Screenshots of this are at http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/Chrome.jpg as it should be in Chrome on Windows and http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/NetSurf.jpg as it was yesterday in NetSurf #2600, but it's back to how it should be this morning! Same NetSurf build. That difference is CSS. Perhaps someone knows why NetSurf doesn't always seem to see their style sheet(s). I have seen this once or twice, even in Windows browsers, when the CSS is missing or misnamed. Perhaps just a slow/busy server and NetSurf is impatient? I imagine this is the fault of the site rather than of NetSurf, but I would value comments. (OT) If it is the fault of the site, I have a feeling that they may be contravening guidance about website accessibility for disabled people, and I would be interested in comments about this also. Their cookie top bars are twee, one is superfluous and both are invisible to NetSurf but to answer your question: They seem to meet all their claims to accessibility if I use a Windows mainstream browser but some of their claims are reliant on a browser's ability to, say, cycle through all links with the tab and select them with return. This is common: is that claim met when NetSurf doesn't provide that facility? In common with much corporate drivel on accessibility, I wonder whether their accessibility page should have a disclaimer about 'depending on browser' and not appear to take credit for a browser feature! All they have done is get things in the right order. However, as your second image shows, the basic HTML layout seems tidy and structured which is pretty much what most accessibility implementation is really all about. Judging by the inhuman CSS file names used nobody codes any of their pages except via a CMS. Interesting that text-low-graphics still imposes their choice of layout and font on the reader. A designer who won't let go? (S/he won't use standard G+, facebook, Twitter, or YouTube gfx). I thought that partially sighted readers were meant to be able to use their browser default font? To all intents and purposes a vanilla page should be the page with no CSS and only one menu. Having seen a partially sighted user with a huge monitor and text blown up to four lines a screenful, I learnt to appreciate the need for a 'basic' option (appreciate =/= implement always). Scrolling around a cheesy, classic over-menued 'square' page (skyscraper menu left, menu bar at the top, menu bar at the bottom with center and right skyscraper content) when your browser viewport is at 800%+ is not easy as anyone with a small smartphone visiting a desktop-only web site will attest. Oh, look at sites such as www.mssociety.org.uk Not really mobile friendly at all. No mobiles at MSS yet then? ;-) Try and read that website on a small smartphone and I think anyone would have comments about practical 'accessibility'. Where are my specs? A lookalike MSS website is what you could end up with if you use my ISP's website builder http://freeola.com/website-builder/ which has lots of 'square' templates with three menus, on one menu thrice. -- www.timil.com web sites * multimedia * training
Re: Malformed site (partly OT).
In article 44f5489854.pnyo...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk, Peter Young pnyo...@ormail.co.uk wrote: I maintain the website of the local branch of the Multiple Sclerosis Society, at www.mssociety.org.uk/cheltenham (NB I am only responsible for the content, not the formatting). From time to time the site gets seriously malformed in RISC OS NetSurf, and then a few days later goes back to what is should be. Screenshots of this are at http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/Chrome.jpg as it should be in Chrome on Windows and http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/NetSurf.jpg as it was yesterday in NetSurf #2600, but it's back to how it should be this morning! Same NetSurf build. [Snip] Seems to work just fine for me here using NS 3.2, Strongarm RPC with OS 4.39. Tried it several times and always seems to come up OK. Not sure that all the functionality is there but the bits I tried seemed to work OK. Alan -- Alan Calder, Milton Keynes, UK.
Re: Malformed site (partly OT).
On 19 Feb 2015 Tim Hill t...@timil.com wrote: In article 44f5489854.pnyo...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk, Peter Young pnyo...@ormail.co.uk wrote: I maintain the website of the local branch of the Multiple Sclerosis Society, at www.mssociety.org.uk/cheltenham (NB I am only responsible for the content, not the formatting). From time to time the site gets seriously malformed in RISC OS NetSurf, and then a few days later goes back to what is should be. Screenshots of this are at http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/Chrome.jpg as it should be in Chrome on Windows and http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/NetSurf.jpg as it was yesterday in NetSurf #2600, but it's back to how it should be this morning! Same NetSurf build. That difference is CSS. Perhaps someone knows why NetSurf doesn't always seem to see their style sheet(s). I have seen this once or twice, even in Windows browsers, when the CSS is missing or misnamed. Perhaps just a slow/busy server and NetSurf is impatient? The CSS do seem to be causing the problem. Does NetSurf always fetch the components of a site in the same order? Knowledge of these things is beyond me. I imagine this is the fault of the site rather than of NetSurf, but I would value comments. (OT) If it is the fault of the site, I have a feeling that they may be contravening guidance about website accessibility for disabled people, and I would be interested in comments about this also. Their cookie top bars are twee, one is superfluous and both are invisible to NetSurf but to answer your question: The cookie bars are a pain, in that they keep returning every time I log in on Windows. Surely there should be a cookie to say that I have agreed. I'll nag the web team about this when I get a round tuit. At least as you say, I don't see them in NetSurf. [snip] Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Re) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
Re: Malformed site (partly OT).
On 19 Feb 2015 Alan Calder alan_cal...@o2.co.uk wrote: In article 44f5489854.pnyo...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk, Peter Young pnyo...@ormail.co.uk wrote: I maintain the website of the local branch of the Multiple Sclerosis Society, at www.mssociety.org.uk/cheltenham (NB I am only responsible for the content, not the formatting). From time to time the site gets seriously malformed in RISC OS NetSurf, and then a few days later goes back to what is should be. Screenshots of this are at http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/Chrome.jpg as it should be in Chrome on Windows and http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/NetSurf.jpg as it was yesterday in NetSurf #2600, but it's back to how it should be this morning! Same NetSurf build. [Snip] Seems to work just fine for me here using NS 3.2, Strongarm RPC with OS 4.39. Tried it several times and always seems to come up OK. Not sure that all the functionality is there but the bits I tried seemed to work OK. Either works or doesn't work here for me, in a random fashion. Tony's adjust-click on the reload button doesn't work, sadly. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Young (zfc Re) and family Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
