Re: [Nix-dev] Usability: Nixpkg > NixOS

[zimbatm]

Hmm okay, I will try to redesign the homepage a bit then. SEO would
recommend not changing the domain either.

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016, 19:48 Nathan Bijnens,  wrote:

> Although I agree with having multiple entry points, I would keep only One
> domain. SEO is important these days...
>
> N.
>
> On Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 18:44 zimbatm  wrote:
>
> I'm impressed at the community response on my borderly trollish email :)
>
> It doesn't look like we can agree on an entry point to the ecosystem as
> everyone here has different opinions. On the other hand, presenting all the
> options upfront is also intimidating to the newcomer.
>
> So maybe the solution is to have multiple landing pages, each catering to
> another subset of the users. Either with multiple domains or by re-thinking
> the current NixOS.org page so it forwards people correctly.
>
> On Fri, 16 Dec 2016, 09:18 Profpatsch,  wrote:
>
> On 16-12-15 11:48pm, Judson Lester wrote:
> > First, how derivations become software. I *think* nix-env (or nix-shell,
> or
> > nix-repl) takes the derivation, finds the build script, establishes
> > environment variables and runs the script, but I don't know that I've
> ever
> > seen that in print anywhere.
>
> nix-store --realise
>
> > More nuanced, I've never quite been sure where
> > the appropriate dividing line is between derivation and build script
>
> The whole definition is in the nix manual in the derivation section.
> For specific details you would probably need to read the nix source.
>
> > Second, how do builds get linked into the system? I've seen it happen,
> and
> > again I have suspicions that it has to do with the outputs attribute of
> the
> > derivation, but I remain in the spooky darkness about particulars.
>
> System profiles are just a derivation that is basically a link farm.
> In their /bin they have a bash script that performs the actual switch.
> It basically bootstraps itself.
>
>
> --
> Proudly written in Mutt with Vim on NixOS.
> Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
> A: http://five.sentenc.es
> May take up to five days to read your message. If it’s urgent, call me.
> ___
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Re: [Nix-dev] Usability: Nixpkg > NixOS

[Nathan Bijnens]

Although I agree with having multiple entry points, I would keep only One
domain. SEO is important these days...

N.

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 18:44 zimbatm  wrote:

> I'm impressed at the community response on my borderly trollish email :)
>
> It doesn't look like we can agree on an entry point to the ecosystem as
> everyone here has different opinions. On the other hand, presenting all the
> options upfront is also intimidating to the newcomer.
>
> So maybe the solution is to have multiple landing pages, each catering to
> another subset of the users. Either with multiple domains or by re-thinking
> the current NixOS.org page so it forwards people correctly.
>
> On Fri, 16 Dec 2016, 09:18 Profpatsch,  wrote:
>
> On 16-12-15 11:48pm, Judson Lester wrote:
> > First, how derivations become software. I *think* nix-env (or nix-shell,
> or
> > nix-repl) takes the derivation, finds the build script, establishes
> > environment variables and runs the script, but I don't know that I've
> ever
> > seen that in print anywhere.
>
> nix-store --realise
>
> > More nuanced, I've never quite been sure where
> > the appropriate dividing line is between derivation and build script
>
> The whole definition is in the nix manual in the derivation section.
> For specific details you would probably need to read the nix source.
>
> > Second, how do builds get linked into the system? I've seen it happen,
> and
> > again I have suspicions that it has to do with the outputs attribute of
> the
> > derivation, but I remain in the spooky darkness about particulars.
>
> System profiles are just a derivation that is basically a link farm.
> In their /bin they have a bash script that performs the actual switch.
> It basically bootstraps itself.
>
>
> --
> Proudly written in Mutt with Vim on NixOS.
> Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
> A: http://five.sentenc.es
> May take up to five days to read your message. If it’s urgent, call me.
> ___
> nix-dev mailing list
> nix-dev@lists.science.uu.nl
> http://lists.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/nix-dev
>
> ___
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> nix-dev@lists.science.uu.nl
> http://lists.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/nix-dev
>
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Re: [Nix-dev] Usability: Nixpkg > NixOS

[zimbatm]

I'm impressed at the community response on my borderly trollish email :)

It doesn't look like we can agree on an entry point to the ecosystem as
everyone here has different opinions. On the other hand, presenting all the
options upfront is also intimidating to the newcomer.

So maybe the solution is to have multiple landing pages, each catering to
another subset of the users. Either with multiple domains or by re-thinking
the current NixOS.org page so it forwards people correctly.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016, 09:18 Profpatsch,  wrote:

> On 16-12-15 11:48pm, Judson Lester wrote:
> > First, how derivations become software. I *think* nix-env (or nix-shell,
> or
> > nix-repl) takes the derivation, finds the build script, establishes
> > environment variables and runs the script, but I don't know that I've
> ever
> > seen that in print anywhere.
>
> nix-store --realise
>
> > More nuanced, I've never quite been sure where
> > the appropriate dividing line is between derivation and build script
>
> The whole definition is in the nix manual in the derivation section.
> For specific details you would probably need to read the nix source.
>
> > Second, how do builds get linked into the system? I've seen it happen,
> and
> > again I have suspicions that it has to do with the outputs attribute of
> the
> > derivation, but I remain in the spooky darkness about particulars.
>
> System profiles are just a derivation that is basically a link farm.
> In their /bin they have a bash script that performs the actual switch.
> It basically bootstraps itself.
>
>
> --
> Proudly written in Mutt with Vim on NixOS.
> Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
> A: http://five.sentenc.es
> May take up to five days to read your message. If it’s urgent, call me.
> ___
> nix-dev mailing list
> nix-dev@lists.science.uu.nl
> http://lists.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/nix-dev
>
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Re: [Nix-dev] Usability: Nixpkg > NixOS

[Profpatsch]

On 16-12-15 11:48pm, Judson Lester wrote:
> First, how derivations become software. I *think* nix-env (or nix-shell, or
> nix-repl) takes the derivation, finds the build script, establishes
> environment variables and runs the script, but I don't know that I've ever
> seen that in print anywhere.

nix-store --realise

> More nuanced, I've never quite been sure where
> the appropriate dividing line is between derivation and build script

The whole definition is in the nix manual in the derivation section.
For specific details you would probably need to read the nix source.

> Second, how do builds get linked into the system? I've seen it happen, and
> again I have suspicions that it has to do with the outputs attribute of the
> derivation, but I remain in the spooky darkness about particulars.

System profiles are just a derivation that is basically a link farm.
In their /bin they have a bash script that performs the actual switch.
It basically bootstraps itself.


-- 
Proudly written in Mutt with Vim on NixOS.
Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
A: http://five.sentenc.es
May take up to five days to read your message. If it’s urgent, call me.
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Re: [Nix-dev] Usability: Nixpkg > NixOS

[Judson Lester]

Candidly, my experience working with nix expressions so far has not been
confusion about the language.

Two important points are are weakly documented and (to me) mysterious:

First, how derivations become software. I *think* nix-env (or nix-shell, or
nix-repl) takes the derivation, finds the build script, establishes
environment variables and runs the script, but I don't know that I've ever
seen that in print anywhere. More nuanced, I've never quite been sure where
the appropriate dividing line is between derivation and build script - in
theory, you could do all your string processing in one or the other, or
violate Nixpkgs constraints in the build script, but in there's a big
middle ground I sometimes have a hard time navigating.

Second, how do builds get linked into the system? I've seen it happen, and
again I have suspicions that it has to do with the outputs attribute of the
derivation, but I remain in the spooky darkness about particulars.

Judson

On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 3:08 PM Profpatsch  wrote:

> On 16-12-15 02:21pm, Colin Putney wrote:
> > Perhaps if we promote the language more, people will get over that hurdle
> > early and then be pleasantly surprised when they see what's possible with
> > it.
>
> see also: https://nixcloud.io/tour/
>
>
> --
> Proudly written in Mutt with Vim on NixOS.
> Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
> A: http://five.sentenc.es
> May take up to five days to read your message. If it’s urgent, call me.
> ___
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Re: [Nix-dev] Usability: Nixpkg > NixOS

[Profpatsch]

On 16-12-15 02:21pm, Colin Putney wrote:
> Perhaps if we promote the language more, people will get over that hurdle
> early and then be pleasantly surprised when they see what's possible with
> it.

see also: https://nixcloud.io/tour/


-- 
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Re: [Nix-dev] Usability: Nixpkg > NixOS

[Игорь Пашев]

2016-12-16 1:21 GMT+03:00 Colin Putney :
> people are interested until they


Avoid success at all costs :)
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Re: [Nix-dev] Usability: Nixpkg > NixOS

[Colin Putney]

On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 5:03 AM, Mark Gardner  wrote:


>
> ​
>
> ​Just like "Go" -> "golang", we can promote "Nix" -> "nixpkg".
>

Maybe nix-lang?

One thing I've noticed is that if nix is promoted as a package manager,
people are interested until they run into the fact that they have to learn
a weird functional language to use it effectively. Then they decide it's
"too complicated" and go invent an ad-hoc, informally-specified,
bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of nixpkgs. (See, for example,
http://snapcraft.io/)

Perhaps if we promote the language more, people will get over that hurdle
early and then be pleasantly surprised when they see what's possible with
it.

Colin
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Re: [Nix-dev] Usability: Nixpkg > NixOS

[Vladimír Čunát]

On 12/15/2016 02:03 PM, Mark Gardner wrote:
> ​Is there any reason we shouldn't use nixpkg.org  in
> parallel to nixos.org ?

Yes, .org certainly feels more fitting than .com for this.


We do have various parts of the project on the site, though perhaps with
little discoverability.  Note however that the state of the packages is
currently significantly better on NixOS than anywhere else (including
darwin).  For example, anything using libGL might need nontrivial setup
actions on other Linuxes, and nowadays libGL is even used by basic
libs/toolkits (e.g. cairo).

> A high-level overview on nixos.org might be a nice idea.

Yes, it would be nice to have an overview of all the nixy projects,
explaining their basic shape and relationships, and put it on a
well-visible place on nixos.org


--Vladimir




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Re: [Nix-dev] Usability: Nixpkg > NixOS

[Profpatsch]

On 16-12-15 11:30am, zimbatm wrote:
> Hi community,
> 
> I have been thinking on how to communicate to newcomers and I have come to
> the conclusion that "nixpkg" is the best term to talk about our ecosystem
> as whole.

I’d like to paint the cityshed red. :)

But seriously, the solution is to be very clear about
which part of the ecosystem one is referencing:

nix : the package manager
nixpkgs : the package set
nixos   : the distribution part
nixexprs: the pure functional language
nix modules : the module system
derivations : the building block of everything

And never assume the other side knows what you mean.

A high-level overview on nixos.org might be a nice idea.

-- 
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Re: [Nix-dev] Usability: Nixpkg > NixOS

[Игорь Пашев]

2016-12-15 16:03 GMT+03:00 Mark Gardner :
> Starting with nixpkg and then talking about NixOS causes the same problem
> but in reverse. As an example, I came to the Nix community as the result of
> NixOS, not nixpkg. I am not sure I would have been attracted to the
> community if nixpkg was the entry point.



Start from Nix! Nix is all about `derivation` which run a script and
saves its output under /nix/store/x...zz.
It automatically runs other referenced `derivations` and saves them
accordingly. So you can build a file, a directory, a python
environment, or an entire operating system (a directory with root dir,
initrd, linux kernel - all produced by their `derivations`)

:D
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Re: [Nix-dev] Usability: Nixpkg > NixOS

[stewart mackenzie]

For me the crux is the nix expression language, everything revolves
around this, this is where real tangible value (read as eye opening,
toe curling power) is obtained.

It might be a good idea creating a nixmake.com or xmake.com site which
has a page for most popular languages detailing documentation on the
subject. The name nixmake is close to make, cmake and every other make
system. It's not alien and that name is humble enough to be installed
on a programmer's system.

Promote nixmake as a viable language level build system, every
language needs such a system. Now here's the key point. It's a helluva
lot easier getting into nixos, nixpkgs, hydra, nixops once you learn
the nix expression language, make the nixmake concept the gateway
drug, as you're proposing a nice solution to a problem close to many
programmer's daily work, shortly they end up seeing the whole picture.

Now when I say make nix as a language package manager, I mean do
things like this: https://github.com/fractalide/nixcrates (I
contracted the awesome https://nixcloud.io team to make nixcrates for
Fractalide, btw they also made https://nixcloud.io/tour/?id=1 so this
tour of nix should have a prominent place on this hypothetical
nixmake.com). Hence programmers would write default.nix files instead
of CMakeLists Makefile Cargo.toml etc files.

Get nix to schew language level build systems and construct arguments
for the different compilers directly.

my 2c worth

kr/sjm
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Re: [Nix-dev] Usability: Nixpkg > NixOS

[Mark Gardner]

On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 6:30 AM, zimbatm  wrote:

> The nixos.org website for example starts with NixOS and then the user has
> to backtrack to the other parts of the ecosystem. I think it's confusing
> and a lot of people don't get that it's more than an operating system. They
> are missing on all the goodness about the cross-distro packaging system
> capabilities that makes nixpkg appealing.
>

​Starting with nixpkg and then talking about NixOS causes the same problem
but in reverse. As an example, I came to the Nix community as the result of
NixOS, not nixpkg. I am not sure I would have been attracted to the
community if nixpkg was the entry point.

A better idea in my opinion is to have separate sites dedicated to each and
have them refer to each other. That way no matter which direction a person
comes at it, they will be able to find the other. And each web site can be
focused on it's individual message.
​

> The other issue is with the term "nix" because it's a common search word.
> "*NIX" always comes up, which is the abbreviation used to describe all the
> flavors of UNIX. I think it's desirable to get away from that term in our
> communication
> ​.​
>

​
​
I haven't had a problem with search but that is because my entry into the
community was through "nixos" which isn't a common term.​ I can see how
"nix" could cause problems.

Does that make sense? I know that it's easy to get into un-ending semantic
> battles but I think it's important to use the right term. Selecting the
> right words helps a lot with comprehension. In some sense it's a bit like
> go vs golang. "Go" is used in verbal communication and "golang" to help
> search.
>


​

​Just like "Go" -> "golang", we can promote "Nix" -> "nixpkg".
​

> I bought the nixpkg.com domain just in case and am happy to transfer it
> to the nix foundation.
>

​Is there any reason we shouldn't use nixpkg.org in parallel to nixos.org?

Regards,
Mark
-- 
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--
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[Nix-dev] Usability: Nixpkg > NixOS

[zimbatm]

Hi community,

I have been thinking on how to communicate to newcomers and I have come to
the conclusion that "nixpkg" is the best term to talk about our ecosystem
as whole.

The nixos.org website for example starts with NixOS and then the user has
to backtrack to the other parts of the ecosystem. I think it's confusing
and a lot of people don't get that it's more than an operating system. They
are missing on all the goodness about the cross-distro packaging system
capabilities that makes nixpkg appealing.

The other issue is with the term "nix" because it's a common search word.
"*NIX" always comes up, which is the abbreviation used to describe all the
flavors of UNIX. I think it's desirable to get away from that term in our
communication.

Does that make sense? I know that it's easy to get into un-ending semantic
battles but I think it's important to use the right term. Selecting the
right words helps a lot with comprehension. In some sense it's a bit like
go vs golang. "Go" is used in verbal communication and "golang" to help
search.

I bought the nixpkg.com domain just in case and am happy to transfer it to
the nix foundation.

Cheers,
z
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