[NSP] Re: solo vs. group playing
Dear Richard, Thanks for the support and fair assessment of what happened at the Monday meeting. I am afraid that Barry has his own axe to grind and cross to bear?and in trying to support his idea I have fallen foul of his antagonism against me again when I was trying to build a bridge between him and myself. The original intention of the Monday meeting when I initiated it thirty years ago now was to use it as a group instructional session as in the workshops that are part of the current pipng courses and I still see that as part of the reason for having the Monday meeting. The numbers attending these meetings vary throughout the year and this last meeting was most likely affected by the aftermath of the flooding and being in a new venue. If we attract ten percent of the local population of about two hundred pipers this works out over the year what we get to our meetings on both the Monday and the Saturday and is not a bad turnout. Colin R -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 23:22 Subject: [NSP] Re: solo vs. group playing Hello All,In respect of the postings by Colin and Barry:I really don't want to get involved in what is clearly a fairly fundamental and personal disagreement, but I was at the Morpeth meeting last night and I feel I need to clarify something.Colin offered the opportunity for solo playing; the offer was accepted by consent of the group and only those who wanted to do so did in fact play. There was no pressure whatsoever to play, and that was completely clear to everyone. I thought the offer was a fair one, and Colin also made it clear from the outset that no criticism would be made.The offer was such that I was motivated to play, although I would normally shun of the idea of solo or competitive playing as I would shun a specimen of Rattus Rattus who had just stepped ashore and announced that he had a few boils and a bit of a cough.One person specifically asked for comment, before playing, and explained their reason for doing so. Th! e subsequent comment was constructive, fairly given and carefully justified. The rest of those who played received nothing but uncritical acceptance and tacit encouragement for playing.RichardSee your new look Tiscali Homepage - http://www.tiscali.co.uk ___To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today. --
[NSP] Re: solo vs. group playing
Hello All, In respect of the postings by Colin and Barry: I really don't want to get involved in what is clearly a fairly fundamental and personal disagreement, but I was at the Morpeth meeting last night and I feel I need to clarify something. Colin offered the opportunity for solo playing; the offer was accepted by consent of the group and only those who wanted to do so did in fact play. There was no pressure whatsoever to play, and that was completely clear to everyone. I thought the offer was a fair one, and Colin also made it clear from the outset that no criticism would be made. The offer was such that I was motivated to play, although I would normally shun of the idea of solo or competitive playing as I would shun a specimen of Rattus Rattus who had just stepped ashore and announced that he had a few boils and a bit of a cough. One person specifically asked for comment, before playing, and explained their reason for doing so. The subsequent comment was constructive, fairly given and carefully justified. The rest of those who played received nothing but uncritical acceptance and tacit encouragement for playing. Richard See your new look Tiscali Homepage - http://www.tiscali.co.uk ___ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: solo vs. group playing
Hi all, I fear that Colin R has misunderstood what I was saying. When I said no criticism, I meant no criticism, whatsoever, at all. The meeting he has described was not what I intended at all. I am sorry if my remarks have led to a further deterioration of NPS meetings. This was not my intention. When I proposed an emphasis on solo playing I *specifically* wished to avoid those aspects of society meetings which long-standing society members recall with some angst. The fact that there was a magnificent total of 9 at the Monday meeting is testament to those who, like myself, no longer go because, among other reasons, they do not want their playing criticised in public, nor do they wish to witness this happening to others.. I further believe that the role of an MC in NPS meetings should be to create a supportive atmosphere - and prevent any public criticism. So, Colin, it seems we are at odds here. I know of no other meeting where such criticism happens and I cannot see that the conduct of NPS meetings in Morpeth, in the last 17 years, has done very much to advance the standard of piping. Over that period, there cannot be more than a handful of pipers who have attended more meetings than I have. Throughout my time as a committee member and Vice-Chairman I sought to make the meetings enjoyable and relevant. If I did not criticise others it was because I was all to aware of my own limitations. I now believe that we (and I in particular) were all barking up the wrong tree. (is that an allusion?). If I wish for tuition, advice or criticism I will go to a piper I respect. As I wish to play solo, I will particularly seek out those who are successful solo players. I fully accept that there can be technically knowledgeable pipers who cannot or do not wish to perform in a solo capacity, but I believe that standing in front of an audience and entertaining them is a particular skill. It is closely related to singing and storytelling. It involves building a relationship with the audience and this requires that the performer respects the audience. It is about communication. Another place to get good criticism is in competition, but here the individual again has power. Once a piper has passed through the beginner/novice level and attempted a couple of intermediate competitions they will get a fair idea of the views and shortcomings of particular judges and can chose which competitions they enter. I believe that most pipers feel that their playing is not as good as it should be and do not need this fact pointed out to them. they can measure their playing against their peers, and if the playing of their peers attracts praise, then this gives them something to aim for. Barry On 7 Oct 2008 at 13:45, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > OK Barry, > > > At our regular Monday meeting last night in Morpeth at our temporary > venue in the Methodist Hall I thought I would try out the solo piping > idea with every one present and of the nine who were there only a > couple said they would rather not play solo. There was no crticism of > their individual playing unless they asked for it and as MC I > restricted my comments to remarking on the tone of the pipes and a > little bit about posture and bellows technique. After doing their solo > they chose a tune that we could all play together so they could relax. > > > With a lot of chat we had a good ' celidh ' in the original meaning of > the word that took us up to 10 o'clock when a few of us adjourned to > the pub to finish off the night. > > > The Monday meetings were started by myself when I was the original > curator of the Bagpipe Museum when it was in Newcastle with a view to > mixing social piping with advice and comments on playing from everyone > present so it would be an instructional as well as sociable occasion. > The mixing of the solo piping with group playing worked better that I > thought it would so we will be doing it again. Thanks for the > reminder. > > > Colin R > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: solo vs. group playing
OK Barry, At our regular Monday meeting last night in Morpeth at our temporary venue in the Methodist Hall I thought I would try out the solo piping idea with every one present and of the nine who were there only a couple said they would rather not play solo. There was no crticism of their individual playing unless they asked for it and as MC I restricted my comments to remarking on the tone of the pipes and a little bit about posture and bellows technique. After doing their solo they chose a tune that we could all play together so they could relax. With a lot of chat we had a good ' celidh ' in the original meaning of the word that took us up to 10 o'clock when a few of us adjourned to the pub to finish off the night. The Monday meetings were started by myself when I was the original curator of the Bagpipe Museum when it was in Newcastle with a view to mixing social piping with advice and comments on playing from everyone present so it would be an instructional as well as sociable occasion. The mixing of the solo piping with group playing worked better that I thought it would so we will be doing it again. Thanks for the reminder. Colin R -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 20:52 Subject: [NSP] solo vs. group playing In historic times (before 1990) I am told that there was a fair proportion of solo playing at NPS meetings, and presumably elsewhere. Some pipers found the prospect of playing on there own before their peers a daunting and nerve-wracking prospect. Since that time we have come to a point where large numbers of pipers can play relatively in tune with one another, and to a great extent solo playing has taken a back seat except for the top-class pipers and competitors.I will not condemn playarounds or sessions or performance groups. Playing pipes 'tout ensemble' can a very sociable activity and undoubtedly can give those with less experience an opportunity to stretch their playing without feeling unduly exposed. However, playing in a herd does not allow the piper to develop their own style, nor to hear the style and manner of playing of their peers. It also seems to generate a reluctance for pipers to play in front of their peers.I think that! we should reintroduce some solo piping performance into the life of the NSP community. We should encourage pipers of all abilities to demonstrate their capabilities at the level to which they have progressed. Those of us who have more experience should lead by example, praise should be given where it is due and criticism should be withheld (both at the time and in the pub afterwards). As well as developing the courage to perform we should have the patience to listen to others and support their endeavours.There is my pebble in the pond. Any ripples?Barry SayTo get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today. --
[NSP] Re: solo vs. group playing
On 2 Oct 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I think the idea of solo playing in our group sessions is excellent, > and I can see that it would be very beneficial. > ... I do mind, > and find very frustrating, is knowing that on my own at home, I can > play much better than that. > > Of course the answer to that is to play more solo in front of others. > So it's Catch 22. What Chris saidin spades. Various solutions have been tried by various pipers to my knowledge: Busking, playing background music at gigs (which can be simple tunes) where people are not actually listening as they would at a concert performance, competing. Playing to non-pipers Any other remedies? Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: solo vs. group playing
I think the idea of solo playing in our group sessions is excellent, and I can see that it would be very beneficial. The problem is that as my turn approaches on the night, my enthusiasm would decrease in proportion. Although I don't feel nervous about performing before others, my fingers do, and I know that in that situation, my playing ability decreases by quite a few notches. I don't mind making mistakes and not playing well before others, if I know they're not going to come down on me for it; but what I do mind, and find very frustrating, is knowing that on my own at home, I can play much better than that. Of course the answer to that is to play more solo in front of others. So it's Catch 22. Chris Harris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: solo vs. group playing
Going back to your initial e-mail, Barry, that many solos used to be played at NSP gatherings in the "early" days - at least before 1990, and now very few choose to stand up on their own before the "gang". - At that point in time there weren't many "expert" pipers other than Richard Butler - and he was always very supportive and encouraging to beginners. Now we have the possibility of hearing a dozen or so superb players both live, and on CDs. Inevitably we compare ourselves with these performers and find ourselves wanting. Despite all of the compassionate and encouraging things which have been said on this thread in the last few days we nevertheless, still assume that others are going to make comparisons and be critical. It has been my experience that if there is a tutor, or a good piper with a strong personality, in the group session who can create a non-threatening atmosphere and give a gentle, encouraging push, after one person has broken the ice and set the ball rolling - and possibly made a few mistakes, the rest are usually happy to follow suit. Often, when a group of amateur musicians get together (whatever their instruments), it seems that everyone wants to play all of the time - especially if there is a common repertoire. Maybe we have to learn to enjoy sitting back and listening to each other more frequently - (really listening, and not starting to chat while someone plays his/her solo). Or perhaps it is a good idea to encourage people to bring along a new tune which lies well on the pipes, to share by first playing it to the group, and either hand out the dots or teach it by ear/rote - ( though this sometimes doesn't go down well, because it means sitting back and really listening when, as mentioned above, everyone wants to play all of the time). Well, that's my pennyworth Sheila __ Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? [1]Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. -- References 1. http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1209382257x1200540686/aol?redir=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall0001 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: solo vs. group playing
AMEN Brother Barry! As you say, playarounds are useful and fun for a number of reasons. The problem of this sort of playing, though, is that it encourages the Least Common Denominator of playing. Unless you have a group that plays together regularly and has settled on tune arrangments you will end up with people playing the tunes as published. It is important (IMHO) to recognize the tunebooks in general as skeletons of the tune. It is doubtful that if you listen to your favorite piper piping you will be able to match what you hear to what you see in your tunebook. This, I think, is the danger of too rich a diet of session playing, that you will play to the group, to the tunebook, and not to the music. Fortunately for me, I am too far from any NPS gatherings to have to put my money where my mouth is! --Rick Damon On Sep 29, 2008, at 3:52 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In historic times (before 1990) I am told that there was a fair proportion of solo playing at NPS meetings, and presumably elsewhere. Some pipers found the prospect of playing on there own before their peers a daunting and nerve-wracking prospect. Since that time we have come to a point where large numbers of pipers can play relatively in tune with one another, and to a great extent solo playing has taken a back seat except for the top-class pipers and competitors. I will not condemn playarounds or sessions or performance groups. Playing pipes 'tout ensemble' can a very sociable activity and undoubtedly can give those with less experience an opportunity to stretch their playing without feeling unduly exposed. However, playing in a herd does not allow the piper to develop their own style, nor to hear the style and manner of playing of their peers. It also seems to generate a reluctance for pipers to play in front of their peers. I think that we should reintroduce some solo piping performance into the life of the NSP community. We should encourage pipers of all abilities to demonstrate their capabilities at the level to which they have progressed. Those of us who have more experience should lead by example, praise should be given where it is due and criticism should be withheld (both at the time and in the pub afterwards). As well as developing the courage to perform we should have the patience to listen to others and support their endeavours. There is my pebble in the pond. Any ripples? Barry Say To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
