[NSP] Re: re notes v. ear
Hello Philip All That certainly livened things up a bit! Can I make it clear that I'm in favour of bounce and lift however it is achieved. With regard to the idea that tunes have to be played faster for dancing, we come back to the point that an up-tempo reel in other traditions becomes a slower bouncy rant in Northumberland. Try doing Hesleyside Reel as a full on reel and the music vanishes; slow it down and give it bounce a beautiful; and not just for dancing! Coming back to Dick's point about ear training can I blow my own trumpet a bit and tell a wee story from the last Darlington Folkworks Workout 4 or 5 years ago. Scene: dance, band: scratch (consisting of 3 fiddles + piano). Robin Dunn had gone through the dance and told the other two fiddlers Stewart Hardy me the three tunes to play a each twice through. The first two tunes were fine, the third tune was not only not the one mentioned but also completely new to the rest of us. It worked somehow and the band carried on till the end, the dancers were appreciative and returned to their seats. When asked what the third tune was, Robin said he hadn't a clue - he'd forgotten the tune he was going to play and set off making a new tune up as he went along. Stewart I played notes that seemed to fit and when the dancers were told what had happened voiced disbelief then gave us a standing ovation. By all means use dots but also listen, listen and listen again; you know it'll do you good. As aye Anthony --- On Thu, 11/6/09, Philip Gruar phi...@gruar.clara.net wrote: From: Philip Gruar phi...@gruar.clara.net Subject: [NSP] Re: re notes v. ear To: Dartmouth N.S.P. site nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 11 June, 2009, 12:33 AM Can I just say, with particular reference to Richard's last post, that I am in no way claiming any superiority for the classically-trained position. Reading my post again, it looks a bit as if I am. I enormously admire all those who play mostly by ear. I think on the whole they are better musicians than me - but I just wanted to defend those of us who play best from the written music against the charge of alway and inevitably playing without any life and expression. Communication with listeners is always best without the music-stand in the way, of course. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: re notes v. ear
I'm not an artist, but my wife is, and she swears by a book called Drawing on the right side of the brain. The premise is that the two halves of the brain work in different ways. The left side (and I may have got this garbled, correct me if I'm wrong) is analytical and logical, and the right side is intuitive. Drawing effectively doesn't need the analytical bit of our brain, but the other. And some people naturally tend one way, some the other. But either way, techniques for using the right part of the brain can be learned. I wonder if the same applies to this issue of playing by ear/learning from notes. As a highly analytical and logical computer programmer, I would expect that I naturally approach things with the left side of the brain, and I can't play by ear to save my life. This is a considerable frustration, and I realise it makes me a second class citizen in the traditional music world. There are a few tunes I have learned by heart (from music) and I can now play without; but if I don't play them on a regular basis, I forget them, and there's only a limited number of tunes one can play through regularly. But it's worse than that. I clearly remember one session in Hexham when someone suggested a tune that I knew without music, and regularly played. Great! I thought, I don't need to go scrabbling to find this in the tune book and come in after everyone else has already started. After the first couple of bars, I lost my way, and didn't find it again till the tune was finished. So now, even if it's a tune I know without music, if I'm in company, I find the dots just for reference if I need it. But I think the ability to play by ear is somehow buried somewhere in the other side of the brain if I could just learn how to access it. Sometimes I can be playing a tune (on my own, from the music) and my eyes lose track of the place in the music. But sometimes I can continue, if it's a tune I know well, for several bars, before my eyes get the right place again. If someone were to write a book on 'playing music on the right side of the brain' I'd be a customer. Chris Harris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: re notes v. ear
When teaching an evening class on playing traditional music a while back, I was determined to get the dots only players to play by ear, visa versa too, so they all had the benefit of both techniques. Most seemed to find it useful. So after some weeks of working up to it, and following John Kirkpatrick's writing on improvising within a tune when that half of the brain takes over, I set us to play the same tune for 25 minutes and see what happened to it. Most people hugely enjoyed it. One unrepentant dots-only player was really quite angry with me. Apparently I'd just made him read the same 32 bars around 20 times, and he was still having to read every single dot at the end of it, and he was bored out of his skull. And he still couldn't, or wouldn't, play it without the dots, in case he got a note wrong. After reading your post, Chris, I find I have a bit more sympathy for him than I had, inwardly, at the time! Richard. ch...@harris405.plus.com wrote: But it's worse than that. I clearly remember one session in Hexham when someone suggested a tune that I knew without music, and regularly played. Great! I thought, I don't need to go scrabbling to find this in the tune book and come in after everyone else has already started. After the first couple of bars, I lost my way, and didn't find it again till the tune was finished. So now, even if it's a tune I know without music, if I'm in company, I find the dots just for reference if I need it. But I think the ability to play by ear is somehow buried somewhere in the other side of the brain if I could just learn how to access it. Sometimes I can be playing a tune (on my own, from the music) and my eyes lose track of the place in the music. But sometimes I can continue, if it's a tune I know well, for several bars, before my eyes get the right place again. If someone were to write a book on 'playing music on the right side of the brain' I'd be a customer. Chris Harris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: re notes v. ear
Philip Gruar wrote: Can I just say, with particular reference to Richard's last post, that I am in no way claiming any superiority for the classically-trained position. Reading my post again, it looks a bit as if I am. I didn't read that into it at all- it was just a comment by me on my own lack of a specific skill set! Richard -- Richard Evans To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: re notes v. ear
Hello Chris I think you have made some excellent points but we all have similar experiences of knowing a tune and then, in a new context, it goes awol. I'd reached a reasonable standard and had learnt all of my tunes by ear when I had my first few tunes with Will Atkinson in his cottage at Glen Aln in1977. Simple hornpipes like Redesdale and Friendly Visit deserted me despite having learnt played them (without dots) for years. Looking back, what thew me was his style of phrasing which I'd not really come up against down on Tyneside. A few hundreths of a second added to or taken off a note can make all the difference to how well we are able to fit in with it. If it was a Tap Spile session you were talking about then it was probably David Oliver leading it and he too feels the music differently to other people. Trust me it is just a matter of time and listening to the different (music) accents out there. There's a tale I heard recently of Hannah Hutton and Fred Jordan at a festival. They had breakfast together everyday for a week and at the end of it Fred commented what a lovely lady Hannah was and how she was full of tales and chat at the beakfast table but at the end of it he admitted he hadn't understood a single word of what she had said all week! The same happens in music. Listen and get used to different styles so you are able to sing them in your head and you'll be more than halfway there. Anthony --- On Thu, 11/6/09, ch...@harris405.plus.com ch...@harris405.plus.com wrote: From: ch...@harris405.plus.com ch...@harris405.plus.com Subject: [NSP] Re: re notes v. ear To: Dartmouth N.S.P. site nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 11 June, 2009, 8:03 AM I'm not an artist, but my wife is, and she swears by a book called Drawing on the right side of the brain. The premise is that the two halves of the brain work in different ways. The left side (and I may have got this garbled, correct me if I'm wrong) is analytical and logical, and the right side is intuitive. Drawing effectively doesn't need the analytical bit of our brain, but the other. And some people naturally tend one way, some the other. But either way, techniques for using the right part of the brain can be learned. I wonder if the same applies to this issue of playing by ear/learning from notes. As a highly analytical and logical computer programmer, I would expect that I naturally approach things with the left side of the brain, and I can't play by ear to save my life. This is a considerable frustration, and I realise it makes me a second class citizen in the traditional music world. There are a few tunes I have learned by heart (from music) and I can now play without; but if I don't play them on a regular basis, I forget them, and there's only a limited number of tunes one can play through regularly. But it's worse than that. I clearly remember one session in Hexham when someone suggested a tune that I knew without music, and regularly played. Great! I thought, I don't need to go scrabbling to find this in the tune book and come in after everyone else has already started. After the first couple of bars, I lost my way, and didn't find it again till the tune was finished. So now, even if it's a tune I know without music, if I'm in company, I find the dots just for reference if I need it. But I think the ability to play by ear is somehow buried somewhere in the other side of the brain if I could just learn how to access it. Sometimes I can be playing a tune (on my own, from the music) and my eyes lose track of the place in the music. But sometimes I can continue, if it's a tune I know well, for several bars, before my eyes get the right place again. If someone were to write a book on 'playing music on the right side of the brain' I'd be a customer. Chris Harris To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: re notes v. ear
On 6/11/09, anth...@robbpipes.com anth...@robbpipes.com wrote: When asked what the third tune was, Robin said he hadn't a clue - he'd forgotten the tune he was going to play and set off making a new tune up as he went along. This has happened on several occasions with Border Directors, as Chris would testify if he were still amang us. It's simply down to experience and musicianship on the plus side, and losing the plot on the minus side! The band keep going, following the twit (me) who's making it up as he goes along, and it is great fun, and no big deal in the scheme of things (unless a remarkable new tune were to emerge). Returning to ear/dots, specifically for learning - a/ it's normal musicianship to be able to do both (may we aspire to normality and have compassion for our own and others' shortcomings) b/ they are both a means to an end and neither should be mistaken for the end, which is to learn the tune c/ learning - thoroughly assimilating and internalising - a tune is IMHO a prerequisite for playing it with conviction, and also a necessary preparation for those occasions when a door opens (to the right side of the brain? to inspiration?) and some extra juice becomes available to do something NEW with it d/ workshop conditions are a relatively artificial environment for learning, whether by ear or dots. As a punter at a workshop I can pick up a tune either way, but unless it's relevant to me it soon fades, as the ones I already know are taking up the available storage. e/ if I'm the person running the workshop I aim not to make it primarily a tune-acquisition exercise but to use tunes (via dots/ear or already learnt) to explore aspects of musicianship which relate to traditional music To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: re notes v. ear
Richard Evans wrote: Philip Gruar wrote: I'm sure everybody with a so-called classical music training here (and jazz or whatever) - i.e. anyone for whom the purely mechanical act of reading written music is completely second nature, does the reading without consciously thinking about doing it. This is the basis of my problem of course- no formal musical training whatsoever! Too late now methinks. Cheers Richard Hi -- one or two cents worth, No one has so far mention the fact that classical musicians usually have an ally waving a stick and hands giving them the colour, speeds and breathing life into the piece they are playing -- namely his interpretation of what the COMPOSER wished to convey from the dots, with all its' written dynamics - sadly unavailable on most bagpipes - so stop trying to put down one side or the other, we have, do and will continue to have two separate methodologies-- they both have a valid raison d'etre both supply a much needed service and occasionally one or the other crosses over and makes a splash Vive la difference vive la musique Dave S To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: re notes v. ear
Dave S wrote: No one has so far mention the fact that classical musicians usually have an ally waving a stick and hands giving them the colour, speeds and breathing life into the piece they are playing -- namely his interpretation of what the COMPOSER wished to convey from the dots, with all its' written dynamics - sadly unavailable on most bagpipes - so stop trying to put down one side or the other, we have, do and will continue to have two separate methodologies-- they both have a valid raison d'etre both supply a much needed service and occasionally one or the other crosses over and makes a splash You only get a conductor with orchestras. Classical musicians also play solo, and in duets, trios, quartets etc. etc. and they work together without following one person's interpretation - even some small orchestras who e.g. specialise in baroque music, don't have a conductor, rely just on a leader maybe playing harpsichord or violin, but mainly on everyone's understanding of the style. Also, a lot of music doesn't have much, or anything at all, in the way of dynamics, or written phrasing etc. This also depends on the players' being thoroughly immersed in the style of the music they are playing, so when reading the dots it comes out right. I guess that's the key to the whole debate. No-one can play traditional music just from the dots alone, with no experience of hearing the style, (or styles, of course) and really getting into it and feeling it. The same applies to jazz and baroque music, especially French-style baroque, just to give two examples. I'm certainly not trying to put down one side or the other, Dave, and I'm sure no-one else is. All I'm trying to say is that it should be possible to play traditional music really well while still using the written notes as a basis for negotiation and necessary help to the memory. But of course you need to have listened to it a lot first - and naturally listen while you are reading too! I'm looking forward to Dick's experiment - I THINK I know what you're doing, Dick, but will probably get a shock when you tell us! Looking at Dick's website, and listening to his playing - there's an example of what the cross-over between classical and folk can achieve. Another of my favourite musicians, Alastair Fraser, has recorded similar things to Dick, with elaborately composed interpretations and development of the Scottish Highland fiddle tradition. I was at a workshop led by him once, where he was illustrating the fiddler's way of improvising and continuing endlessly with rhythmic dance support - very much like Anthony and Matt have been describing. That's enough theorising - I must get back to finishing someone's chanter. (You know who you are!) I need to play a bit more too! cheers, Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: re notes v. ear
Here here! I was hesitating about saying exactly the same thing, only you put it better than I could. Cheers, Richard Philip Gruar wrote: I think Peter makes just the point here that I was going to make, when Anthony (I think) first started the debate. Also, Dick made very good points. The flatness and mechanical playing problems which many people perceive with playing from dots is only inevitable for people who struggle with the reading, and those who think that the dots represent *exactly* how music should be played. Only a computer plays music exactly as written - good musicians will always lengthen/shorten certain notes, pull the rhythm around subtly and put life expression into the music as they read it. I'm sure everybody with a so-called classical music training here (and jazz or whatever) - i.e. anyone for whom the purely mechanical act of reading written music is completely second nature, does the reading without consciously thinking about doing it. Playing the music sensitively, with the right style or expression or whatever, is what you do with it on top of the reading so to speak - well or less well depending on your musicianship and understanding of the music. People who do jazz or early music maybe depart from the written notes more than main-stream classical players do - but all competent musicians would surely reject idea that reading inevitably leads to flatness. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: re notes v. ear
Can I just say, with particular reference to Richard's last post, that I am in no way claiming any superiority for the classically-trained position. Reading my post again, it looks a bit as if I am. I enormously admire all those who play mostly by ear. I think on the whole they are better musicians than me - but I just wanted to defend those of us who play best from the written music against the charge of alway and inevitably playing without any life and expression. Communication with listeners is always best without the music-stand in the way, of course. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
