[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
Francis Wood said; I must say, I greatly prefer Gilbert Askew's re-working of this tune to the reworking of the abc below! Well you would, it has the familiarity of long association. What Dunk submitted in manuscript to the NPS was no scribble. Its appearance looks plausible and musically literate and there's no doubt at all as to the intentions of its content. The problem is that it remains musical nonsense. I haven't seen the original ms, but in the abc of it the traditional tune form is immediately obvious. As I said , all that is missing is the punctuation. The question must therefore be why did Askew choose to re-write the tune or could he not see what should have been staring him in the face either. And Barry; I would like to hear an audio clip of your version. I for one do not read well enough to appraise your ABC I'll give it a run through on the pipes in the next day or two and try to record it. So far I've only played it from the abc file on the computer (melody assistant) as Rapper dancing at a very wet Rothbury festival has left little time available this weekend. I did run into Hamish Moore though who was playing bodhran with the Irish dancers band. Pipe makers on their days off eh? If I get it done I'll stick it on some web space and let you know. I'm not going down the utube route. Cheers, Dave Dave Shaw, Northumbrian and Scottish Smallpipes, Irish Pipes and SHAW Whistles www.daveshaw.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
I wonder what his sister thought of it? She could compose, and her quartet at least is still played. So there must have been music in the family home when they were young. Certainly W on the W looks literate. As Francis points out, it's not a scribble. But it needs massive editing to make sense of it - and Askew's rewrite makes more sense than Dave's repunctuation, though at least the latter works in a way now. Also, why did a Folkestone man write some half dozen 'Northumbrian' tunes? There must be a connection to explain this. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Francis Wood [oatenp...@googlemail.com] Sent: 17 July 2011 00:23 To: barr...@nspipes.co.uk Cc: Dave Shaw; NSPlist Subject: [NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances On 17 Jul 2011, at 00:16, barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: I think they didn't get it! If I feel any suspicion towards that class it is hugely mitigated by the Christmas Carols of Ralph Vaughan Williams Well yes, but quite a few other other British composers as well! Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
I do very much agree with what John Gibbons said a few days ago: If the NPS offered a trophy of a silver cup full of beer for anyone playing W on the W verbatim from memory, nobody would ever want to win it. It doesn't work, whether in classical, modern or traditional terms. Is it really possible that Mr. Dunk is being misjudged? I have two thoughts on this: - Should there be a 'Dunk Cup’, to be awarded for future attempts at what Gilbert Askew described as “successful essays in what may be termed the Northumbrian mode? - If 'Whin Shields on the Wall' is regarded as a 'successful essay', what on earth would an unsuccessful essay be like? I look forward to hearing Dave Shaw's recomposition of the piece. We can then compare it with Askew's own. Francis On 17 Jul 2011, at 13:47, Dave Shaw wrote: Francis Wood said; I must say, I greatly prefer Gilbert Askew's re-working of this tune to the reworking of the abc below! Well you would, it has the familiarity of long association. What Dunk submitted in manuscript to the NPS was no scribble. Its appearance looks plausible and musically literate and there's no doubt at all as to the intentions of its content. The problem is that it remains musical nonsense. I haven't seen the original ms, but in the abc of it the traditional tune form is immediately obvious. As I said , all that is missing is the punctuation. The question must therefore be why did Askew choose to re-write the tune or could he not see what should have been staring him in the face either. And Barry; I would like to hear an audio clip of your version. I for one do not read well enough to appraise your ABC I'll give it a run through on the pipes in the next day or two and try to record it. So far I've only played it from the abc file on the computer (melody assistant) as Rapper dancing at a very wet Rothbury festival has left little time available this weekend. I did run into Hamish Moore though who was playing bodhran with the Irish dancers band. Pipe makers on their days off eh? If I get it done I'll stick it on some web space and let you know. I'm not going down the utube route. Cheers, Dave Dave Shaw, Northumbrian and Scottish Smallpipes, Irish Pipes and SHAW Whistles www.daveshaw.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
On 17 Jul 2011, at 14:10, Francis Wood quoted John Gibbons: If the NPS offered a trophy of a silver cup full of beer for anyone playing W on the W verbatim from memory . . . ., Just as an afterthought, John, . . . were you suggesting that the cup full of beer be awarded before, or after playing W on the W? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
Without looking at the cup, how could the listener tell? From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Francis Wood [oatenp...@googlemail.com] Sent: 17 July 2011 14:19 To: Gibbons, John Cc: NSPlist group Subject: [NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances On 17 Jul 2011, at 14:10, Francis Wood quoted John Gibbons: If the NPS offered a trophy of a silver cup full of beer for anyone playing W on the W verbatim from memory . . . ., Just as an afterthought, John, . . . were you suggesting that the cup full of beer be awarded before, or after playing W on the W? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
On 17 Jul 2011, Dave Shaw wrote: I haven't seen the original ms I have posted a reduced size version of the scan of the MS on the NPS bulletin board in a new thread entitled Whinshields on the Wall. I hope this helps Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
On 17 Jul 2011, at 13:47, Dave Shaw wrote: The question must therefore be why did Askew choose to re-write the tune or could he not see what should have been staring him in the face either. Perhaps there are two distinct questions here. So here's an attempt at two answers: - The question must therefore be why did Askew choose to re-write the tune Because he found some valuable ideas in his friends very dysfunctional tune, and thought it worth reworking into a form which generations of pipers have since found very appealing. - could he not see what should have been staring him in the face either. Perhaps he saw it very clearly indeed and didn't fully like what he saw. So another more relevant question: If Gilbert Askew hadn't extended this kindness, would anybody now bother to play what Dunk actually wrote? Have a look at that on the Forum where Julia has posted the manuscript: http://www.northumbrianpipers.org.uk/pipersforum/viewtopic.php?f=18t=206 I hope the link works. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
In a message dated 17/07/2011 17:07:14 GMT Daylight Time, oatenp...@googlemail.com writes: http://www.northumbrianpipers.org.uk/pipersforum/viewtopic.php?f=18; t=206 Dave is right, Dunk meant it to be in ternary form. A, B, A', with A' being an ornamented recap leading into a coda. But there is no sign of a repeat mark or 1st and 2nd time bars in the MS, even though he takes the trouble to say 'Briskly and cheerily'. I think what Dave reads as 1st and 2nd time bars are meant to be bridge passages, but they don't work, as they don't join what comes before to what follows John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
Thanks for that Julia. It helps to see the full ms and makes perfect sense. The music is at least arranged spacially the way I have suggested and the double length symbol in the last bar shows it to be a slowed finish, again as suggested. Writing music longhand is a slow and precise process. I have mistakes in my own handwriten manuscript books from the pre computer days and wonder how on earth did I miss that when I wrote it. I feel that Dunk was distracted before he finished the piece off with the playing symbols and sent it away unaware it was incomplete. We shall never know. It is a little clunky and overcomplicated in places and if it had survived in this form in the repertoire it would have changed in a generation or so anyhow. Also, Francis said I look forward to hearing Dave Shaw's recomposition of the piece. It's formatting, not recomposition. Cheers, Dave To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
Quoting Dave Shaw d...@daveshaw.co.uk: It is a little clunky and overcomplicated in places Dave's opinion here echoes my own untutored an instinctive reaction to the ms. A related topic, I have a problem with composition competitions where manuscripts are presented to a judge. Written music can be a frail presentation of a complex idea. Given a printed version of a 32 bar tune, how would a Northumbrian or Scottish or English - Irish - American -Shetland - Scandawegian c interpret the dots. There are tunes which occur in these various traditions and have a very different 'feel' depending on the background of the player. When we lived in Durham, we were involved with a Morris side, among whose members was an excellent young fiddle player. She had learnt a lot from Willie Taylor and had had significant interaction with American musicians from the Appalachian Clog Tradition. So she could play Morpeth Rant 'a la Northumbrian' twice through and then kick up the tempo into an old-time American rendition with double-shuffle bowing 'n stuff. The tune exists in both traditions and this combination was something we used as 'entertainment' on 4th July dance-outs. I am trying to say, very forcefully, that in what we call traditional music, there is a huge gap between the written notes and the actual performance. This also applies in ragtime, blues (I think), jazz (I suppose) and other genres. So when a competition judge looks at a manuscript, if they do not have sympathy with the composers background, they could well misunderstand the intention of the piece. Had Chris Ormston's Bigg Market Lasses been presented to a composition Judge as manuscript, what are the chances that any given judge would have had the least notion of what he was on about. Johnny Handle has told a story about the early days of the High level Ranters when they were exploring the old tunes from the Minstrelsy and so forth. He said there would be times when they would try a particular tune and think it strange or un-musical, but at a later practice one of them would come back and say, 'That tune we tried last time? If you play it like this.' Whether HLR got it right or wrong is irrelevant, that to me sums up the attitude we must have if we wish to mine the rich seeds of our tradition. So if 98% of the world think that Mr Dunk was on a different planet, they are welcome to their opinion. If one musician, can make a convincing fist of his piece, then those of us who failed to see the inherent value of his composition must say 'OK, I missed that one, better luck next time'. Just because a piece breaks some notional (artificial?) rules, doesn't make it bad music. Much of Billy Pigg's appeal was his rule breaking approach to his music. On the other hand he wrote some cracking tunes which I am sure will stand the test of time. Enough for now. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
In a message dated 17/07/2011 20:33:27 GMT Daylight Time, barr...@nspipes.co.uk writes: Just because a piece breaks some notional (artificial?) rules, doesn't make it bad music. Oddly, I don't think W on the W does break any rules in this sense. Except for our preference for 4 bar phrases, and Dave may have spotted the remedy for that. But is the best thing we can say about it that it's grammatical? So is Chomsky's 'Colourless green ideas sleep furiously', though it is totally meaningless. Was Dunk trying to write a paradox, or Northumbrian-style music? Certainly not succeeding in the latter. John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
Francis Wood wrote; I'm not convinced that this is anything else other than nonsense. It starts familiarly but then goes completely mad ( a brief allusion to 'Il est né, le Divin Enfant' creeps in) and goes all over the place. I agree, though . . . a very interesting character! Mr Dunk was heavily involved in the highbrow music scene He may have thought he was, but did the highbrow music scene agree? Well, the educated musicians of Dunks day tended to be snobbish and condescending towards folk music and musicians. We would do well to avoid that pitfall in return. Having looked at Dunks ms in abc then it does appear on the surface to have no merit. If however you realise that the thing has no musical punctuation at all then you have a way into the piece. His ms may have been a work in progress, and handed over with a few verbal instructions which were never passed down the line. Add normal form to it and bar 9 needs a first part repeat, with 10 for the second time thro. Same for bars 18 and 19. This left the end still confused but I realised that bars 26 abd 27 were the first time and 28 and 29 the last time thro, played slowly for a big finish. Probably you would play the piece 2As, 2Bs over with 2Cs to finish with a flourish. Here it is, amended. I hope it reads ok as melody leaves a lot of dross which I had to edit out. Pay more attention next time, because it works ok even if a little unfamiliar. Cheers, Dave X:Music edited by Dave Shaw T:Whin Shields on the Wall C:John L. Dunk Q:1/4=104 M:2/4 L:1/16 K:G d2 |:B2G2 G2B2 |A2D2 D2D2 | G2G2 GABc |d3B d2g2 |e2c2 c2e2 | d2G2 G2AB |c2E2 E2FG |[1ABcd e2fg :|[2 decB ABGF |:G3E G2B2 |e2B2 B2e2 | d3A d2e2 |a2e2 e2f2 |g3e g2f2 | e2d2 c2B2 |A2d2 d2fd |[1A2d2 e2fg :|[2 a3g gfed |:B2G2 GABG |A2D2 D2EF | G2G2 GABc |d6 g2 |e2c2 c2de | d2G2 G2AB |[1c2B2 A2G2 |dedB GAGE :|[2 c3F Fd2G-|G3E G4 |] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
Hello Dave and others, I must say, I greatly prefer Gilbert Askew's re-working of this tune to the reworking of the abc below! What Dunk submitted in manuscript to the NPS was no scribble. Its appearance looks plausible and musically literate and there's no doubt at all as to the intentions of its content. The problem is that it remains musical nonsense. It's interesting that Askew (who edited the NPS Tunebook in 1936) found value in this tune, as well as Dunk's other included tune, the Lass of Falstone. I don't know whether that one required similar remedial attention. These are his remarks in the introduction: The editor also wishes to thank his friend Mr. John L. Dunk for the Whinshields Hornpipe [Askew has also changed the title here] and the Lass o' Falstone, two very successful essays in what may be termed the Northumbrian mode, by the author of , Hyperacoustics Tonality - its Rational Basis and Elementary Development and other works dealing with the philosophic aspect of music. Perhaps it was really a question of you hum it and I'll write it. Is it possible that, after all, Dunk couldn't accurately represent the tune himself in written form? Incidentally the choice of tunes in that collection wasn't Askew's alone. Several other members were also acknowledged in this task, including Jack Armstrong who could certainly recognise a tune that was good, and logically one that was not. So what was really going on here? Francis On 16 Jul 2011, at 23:11, Dave Shaw wrote: Francis Wood wrote; I'm not convinced that this is anything else other than nonsense. It starts familiarly but then goes completely mad ( a brief allusion to 'Il est né, le Divin Enfant' creeps in) and goes all over the place. I agree, though . . . a very interesting character! Mr Dunk was heavily involved in the highbrow music scene He may have thought he was, but did the highbrow music scene agree? Well, the educated musicians of Dunks day tended to be snobbish and condescending towards folk music and musicians. We would do well to avoid that pitfall in return. Having looked at Dunks ms in abc then it does appear on the surface to have no merit. If however you realise that the thing has no musical punctuation at all then you have a way into the piece. His ms may have been a work in progress, and handed over with a few verbal instructions which were never passed down the line. Add normal form to it and bar 9 needs a first part repeat, with 10 for the second time thro. Same for bars 18 and 19. This left the end still confused but I realised that bars 26 abd 27 were the first time and 28 and 29 the last time thro, played slowly for a big finish. Probably you would play the piece 2As, 2Bs over with 2Cs to finish with a flourish. Here it is, amended. I hope it reads ok as melody leaves a lot of dross which I had to edit out. Pay more attention next time, because it works ok even if a little unfamiliar. Cheers, Dave X:Music edited by Dave Shaw T:Whin Shields on the Wall C:John L. Dunk Q:1/4=104 M:2/4 L:1/16 K:G d2 |:B2G2 G2B2 |A2D2 D2D2 | G2G2 GABc |d3B d2g2 |e2c2 c2e2 | d2G2 G2AB |c2E2 E2FG |[1ABcd e2fg :|[2 decB ABGF |:G3E G2B2 |e2B2 B2e2 | d3A d2e2 |a2e2 e2f2 |g3e g2f2 | e2d2 c2B2 |A2d2 d2fd |[1A2d2 e2fg :|[2 a3g gfed |:B2G2 GABG |A2D2 D2EF | G2G2 GABc |d6 g2 |e2c2 c2de | d2G2 G2AB |[1c2B2 A2G2 |dedB GAGE :|[2 c3F Fd2G-|G3E G4 |] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
I would like to thank Dave for the effort he has put into this. I do not believe the piece is without merit, but it is beyond my personal musical capacity. Quoting Dave Shaw d...@daveshaw.co.uk: Well, the educated musicians of Dunks day tended to be snobbish and condescending towards and musicians. We would do well to avoid that pitfall in return. I think that the attitude of educated musicians and the professional classes to what they themselves classified as folk music was a little complex. As well as condescension, there was also fear, suspicion, admiration, envy... I think they didn't get it! If I feel any suspicion towards that class it is hugely mitigated by the Christmas Carols of Ralph Vaughan Williams which I think show how a Classical or highbrow Composer can be influenced by the indigenous music of Britain in much the same way as Middle European composers took the music of their own regions as inspirations for their compositions. Here it is, amended. I hope it reads OK as melody leaves a lot of dross which I had to edit out. I would like to hear an audio clip of your version. I for one do not read well enough to appraise your ABC Pay more attention next time, because it works OK even if a little unfamiliar. You have just echoed my gut instinct. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
Well, this is what Dunk actually wrote, transcribed in abc from the very clear manuscript in the possession of the NPS: X:NPS Collection T:Whin Shields on the Wall C:John L. Dunk Q:1/4=100 M:2/4 L:1/16 K:G z6 d2 |B2G2 G2B2 |A2D2 D2D2 |G2G2 GABc |d3B d2g2 |e2c2 c2e2 |d2G2 G2AB |c2E2 E2FG |ABcd e2fg | decB ABGF |G3E G2B2 |e2B2 B2e2 |d3A d2e2 |a2e2 e2f2 |g3e g2f2 |e2d2 c2B2 |A2d2 d2fd |A2d2 e2fg | a3g gfed |B2G2 GABG |A2D2 D2EF |G2G2 GABc |d6 g2 |e2c2 c2de |d2G2 G2AB |c2B2 A2G2 |dedB GAGE | c3F Fd2G-|G3E G4 |] I'm not convinced that this is anything else other than nonsense. It starts familiarly but then goes completely mad ( a brief allusion to 'Il est né, le Divin Enfant' creeps in) and goes all over the place. I agree, though . . . a very interesting character! Mr Dunk was heavily involved in the highbrow music scene He may have thought he was, but did the highbrow music scene agree? Francis On 15 Jul 2011, at 11:55, barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: Quoting Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com: Another 'traditional' tune, J.L Dunk's Whin Shields on the Wall was unplayable nonsense when given to the NPS in a literate-looking but impossible manuscript. Someone, probably the editor Gilbert Askew has bashed it into the excellent Whinshield's Hornpipe. I think that Francis is being unkind to Mr James Delanoy Dunk. Mr Dunk was heavily involved in the highbrow music scene of London in the early part of the last century. His sister, Susan Spain-Dunk achieved some recognition as a Classical composer. http://landofllostcontent.blogspot.com/2009/09/susan-spain-dunk-note-in-music-student.html James' writings on music theory are widely regarded as incomprehensible but they reveal someone who has thought deeply about the nature of music. Perhaps he has thought too deeply, for that way madness lies! I suspect that Whin Shields on the Wall as submitted was an attempt to make a work which would bring the NSP into the Classical repertoire of the time. I can make no sense of it but then I have no feeling for the works of Schonberg, Stockhausen, Bertwhistle or Cage. I leave such matters to others in the same way as I leave aside recent attempts to take NSP into the world of contemporary classical music. These ventures simply hold no interest for me. The Lass of Falstone is a pretty good tune though. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
On 15 Jul 2011, at 16:59, Gibbons, John wrote: But it's so free-form that it sounds like he was drunk when he wrote it. H . . . Dunk and disorderly. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
from the last couple of mail it's a critiques slam dunk Dave H . . . Dunk and disorderly. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3764 - Release Date: 07/14/11
