[NSP] Re: Rants again
Why has this rant thread gone so quiet all last week? What makes a tune sound like a rant, rather than a reel or hornpipe? If I take a (4 in a bar) hornpipe without triplets, speed it up a bit, but not as much as a reel, smooth out the dotting a bit, and emphasise the odd beats at the expense of the even ones, will I get a rant? How essential are those 3-crotchet cadences? Are there any essential stylistic features that this attempt at a description misses? John To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rants again
On 11 Jul 2011, at 13:05, Gibbons, John wrote: Are there any essential stylistic features that this attempt at a description misses? Wiktionary helpfully gives: From Dutch ranten, randen (“talk nonsense, rave”). Can anybody help to clarify the difference between a Rant and a Rave? Or at least, suggest how Rant entered the vocabulary of dance? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rants again
Tim has asked the right question - What is the right way of playing a tune, so that it is rantable by a dancer? Can you clarify this, Anthony? John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tim Rolls Sent: 11 July 2011 13:58 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Rants again .and from FARNE http://www.folknortheast.com/learn/social-dance/dance-technique The single most striking factor which sets Northumbrian traditional dance aside from those traditional dances known in Southern England, Scotland and other parts of the British Isles is the number of dances which feature vigorous stepping throughout, or as their main feature. The most common step being the rant step, this being found in such dances as The Morpeth Rant, The Quaker's Wife, The Rifleman, Roxburgh Castle, Soldier's Joy and The Triumph. It is not an easy thing to describe dance in text form, there really is no substitute for watching other dancers and copying what they do. To learn the rant step you start by doing Hop, hop, change (pause), hop, hop, change (pause). That's two hops on (say) the right foot, one on the left foot and hold it there, then do the same starting on the left foot. Make sure you can do that before moving on to stage two. When it seems to be coming naturally, between the two hops on the same foot you just tap the ground gently with your spare foot. So the rhythm becomes Hop-tap, hop, change (pause), hop-tap, hop, change (pause). It is important to note that when stepping on the spot you're not putting your weight on the front foot - it just happens to touch the ground. Some people make a big thing of crossing the front foot over, but really that's not important. You're bound to lose the step occasionally while you're learning it, but just drop back to the hop, hop, change until y! ou've got the rhythm back and then try it again. The step can be varied to make a traveling step and for use in dancing round figures. So, come on you guys who play for dances, what's the key to playing a Rant? Tim On 11 Jul 2011, at 13:05, Gibbons, John wrote: Why has this rant thread gone so quiet all last week? What makes a tune sound like a rant, rather than a reel or hornpipe? If I take a (4 in a bar) hornpipe without triplets, speed it up a bit, but not as much as a reel, smooth out the dotting a bit, and emphasise the odd beats at the expense of the even ones, will I get a rant? How essential are those 3-crotchet cadences? Are there any essential stylistic features that this attempt at a description misses? John To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[NSP] Re: Rants again
Hello John I think that's fairly close. It is possible to do rants steps to reels, polkas and even jigs but in the Northumbrian sense it is a subtle up-tempo near hornpipe that really does help you to lift your feet off the ground and move rhythmically around the floor for long periods of time (e.g. Eightsome Reel - up to 11 minutes) in that unique way. There are quite a few examples of people really lashing into it; Dorset 4 Hand, Royton Clog Morris etc. and these might reflect the more colourful definitions of the word recently offered but as I've indicated before this has nowt to do with the Northumbrian sense of the word. In fact 'rant' seems fairly common in the general tune sense. I remember my disappointment when I discovered The Aith Rant was a jig! In true traditional style, however, the word means something to Northumbrian dancers which others do not share/find alien. Listen to Willy Taylor playing his own 'reels' and you'll get a perfect sense of the way they go. His rants steps were smooth, economical, simply beautiful to watch and as far removed from dictionary definitions as it is possible to be. As aye Anthony --- On Mon, 11/7/11, Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: From: Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Rants again To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 11 July, 2011, 13:05 Why has this rant thread gone so quiet all last week? What makes a tune sound like a rant, rather than a reel or hornpipe? If I take a (4 in a bar) hornpipe without triplets, speed it up a bit, but not as much as a reel, smooth out the dotting a bit, and emphasise the odd beats at the expense of the even ones, will I get a rant? How essential are those 3-crotchet cadences? Are there any essential stylistic features that this attempt at a description misses? John To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rants again
On 11 Jul 2011, Francis Wood wrote: Wiktionary helpfully gives: From Dutch ranten, randen (talk nonsense, rave). Well, there you are then. Some might say that covers many posts! Can anybody help to clarify the difference between a Rant and a Rave? PA and flashing lights? E? Or at least, suggest how Rant entered the vocabulary of dance? I have several times wondered if there is any connection between the rant's appearance in the hills of Northumberland and the religious affiliation (Scotch church) of many of the area's people. The Ranters were travelling clergymen and their followers who held meetings in remote areas away from persecuting eyes. Very illiberal, some of them, but did the name stick after they joined the mainstream? In respect of posting to this list I am also sometimes reminded of the Hogwarts motto: Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rants again
Having danced for years, and played for dancing (albeit in California) perhaps I can help. First, you do need to see the rant step to understand it. That said, the easiest way to learn the step is to do it to the rhythm Potato chips, potato chips. Yes, I know you call them crisps, but that's ever so much harder to say. (It can also be done to The cactus plants are hard on pants, but that's harder to remember and a bit culturally . . . outside). If you want to see it, look here: [1]www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk2u3J-G9YI As somebody else said, a rant can be danced to a good many styles of tune. Honestly, most dancing can be done to any style of tune, so long as it's the correct tempo. All dancers really need is a strong down beat. (The true Scottish strathspey is one dance that comes to mind that is actually enhanced by the music. Also Morris). Never really had a dancer say, I can't dance this dance to that tune. Alec MacLean In a message dated 7/11/2011 6:00:56 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, tim.ro...@btconnect.com writes: ..and from FARNE http://www.folknortheast.com/learn/social-dance/dance-technique The single most striking factor which sets Northumbrian traditional dance aside from those traditional dances known in Southern England, Scotland and other parts of the British Isles is the number of dances which feature vigorous stepping throughout, or as their main feature. The most common step being the rant step, this being found in such dances as The Morpeth Rant, The Quaker's Wife, The Rifleman, Roxburgh Castle, Soldier's Joy and The Triumph. It is not an easy thing to describe dance in text form, there really is no substitute for watching other dancers and copying what they do. To learn the rant step you start by doing Hop, hop, change (pause), hop, hop, change (pause). That's two hops on (say) the right foot, one on the left foot and hold it there, then do the same starting on the left foot. Make sure you can do that before moving on to stage two. When it seems to be coming naturally, between the two hops on the same foot you just tap the ground gently with your spare foot. So the rhythm becomes Hop-tap, hop, change (pause), hop-tap, hop, change (pause). It is important to note that when stepping on the spot you're not putting your weight on the front foot - it just happens to touch the ground. Some people make a big thing of crossing the front foot over, but really that's not important. You're bound to lose the step occasionally while you're learning it, but just drop back to the hop, hop, change until you've got the rhythm back and then try it again. The step can be varied to make a traveling step and for use in dancing round figures. So, come on you guys who play for dances, what's the key to playing a Rant? Tim On 11 Jul 2011, at 13:05, Gibbons, John wrote: Why has this rant thread gone so quiet all last week? What makes a tune sound like a rant, rather than a reel or hornpipe? If I take a (4 in a bar) hornpipe without triplets, speed it up a bit, but not as much as a reel, smooth out the dotting a bit, and emphasise the odd beats at the expense of the even ones, will I get a rant? How essential are those 3-crotchet cadences? Are there any essential stylistic features that this attempt at a description misses? John To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk2u3J-G9YI
[NSP] Re: Rants again
rant. Old Eng. 17th-cent. dance of the jig variety. It originated in Scotland and N. England. Four examples occur in Playford's The Dancing Master (1657 and 1665 revisions). The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music | 1996 Any advance on Playford? Smith's New Rant (What happened to the old one?) A Scots Rant A rendition of The Italian Rant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPL2FXqVc9M Tim On 11 Jul 2011, at 14:06, Gibbons, John wrote: 'Rant', as in 'Morpeth Rant', appeared in Vickers' MS in 1770, predating the Primitive Methodists. But 'Ranters' were another religious sect during the Civil War, so an old name was reapplied to the Primitive Methodists. The use of 'rant' for various dance tunes, in various rhythms, occurs through much of the 18th century, eg The Cameronian's Rant is a reel, The Collier's Rant a song in 6/8. The restricted use of the term to 4/4 tunes like The Morpeth Rant is much more specific, and local to Northumberland. It is perhaps significant that Scots Measures went out of fashion about the time rants came in. Both have 8 bars of 4/4. The main difference between the forms is that in the former, the cadences have a crotchet then two tied (syncopated) crotchets, while rants have a strong 3rd beat, and there is no tie. It would be interesting to know (though we never will) what Morpeth Rant looked like in Vickers before the page got lost. He retained syncopation in similar positions in some hornpipes. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tim Rolls Sent: 11 July 2011 13:46 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Rants again Unencumbered as I am by knowledge, experience or understanding of dance steps, I too have asked this question. I am led to believe that the emphasis should be on the third beat of the bar as this mirrors a larger/more emphatic step in the dance. I had a look at Moody to see if there's any guidance linguistically. No definite help, we have: Rantan, Rantaan. Used in the phrase on the rantan, indulging one's self in disorderly and wild conduct as a form of high spirited enjoyment: a milder form of on the rampaadge(sic), on the spree, e.g. He's gyen on the rantan, i.e. his frolic can be sympathetically excused. Ranter 1. A term applied in contemptuous disparagement to the more zealous members of the Methodist Church - particularly of the Primitive Methodist body - who were given to ardent impromptu prayers, lusty singing of hymns and loud ejaculations of Pious praise during their religious services. Thus: Aa've left the Chorch (Anglican) an' aa've joined the Ranters.Note, the Primitive Methodist Church originated in 1807-1810 and the term Ranter was first used in 1814. 2. By transference, applied to hymns sung in the Primitive Methodist and United Methodist Churches, or in the Salvation Army. These hymns, nowadays sadly out of favour, were characterised by rollicking tunes, half line refrains (sung by alternate parts) and rather crude sentiment; but they were enjoyable to sing and were rendered both lustily and fervently: e.g. Ay, that's a gud aad Rantor that hymn So can anyone fill in the gap between the hymns and the dance? Or any of the rollicking tunes? I'll put this on the NSP forum as a question too. cheers Tim On 11 Jul 2011, at 13:05, Gibbons, John wrote: Why has this rant thread gone so quiet all last week? What makes a tune sound like a rant, rather than a reel or hornpipe? If I take a (4 in a bar) hornpipe without triplets, speed it up a bit, but not as much as a reel, smooth out the dotting a bit, and emphasise the odd beats at the expense of the even ones, will I get a rant? How essential are those 3-crotchet cadences? Are there any essential stylistic features that this attempt at a description misses? John To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[NSP] Re: Rants again
As just a side bar to this duscussion of ranting: an interesting thing happened to me yesterday. I was at the Skagit Valley Highland Games to participate in a SSP and Border pipe talent show for lack of a better term. Kat Eggleston and I played a set of Lowland tunes in a guitar/BP duet. Ours was the only set of Border tunes played on BP. Anyway, in a presentation of the different kinds of pipes I demonstrated the NSP. The tune used to show off the sound of each instrument was Scotland the Brave which I ranted as best I can. People physically responded by moving to the music. The Highland pipers made like organ grinders or monkeys, but it didn't matter because I was pleased to get a happy reaction from the audience (when they didn't)! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rants again
Etymology+Origin of rant (verb) 1598, from Du. randten talk foolishly, rave, of unknown origin (cf. Ger. rantzen to frolic, spring about). The noun is first attested 1649, from the verb. Ranters antinomian sect which arose in England c.1645 is attested from 1651; applied 1823 to early Methodists. A 1700 slang dictionary has rantipole a rude wild Boy or Girl. On 7/11/2011 8:32 PM, Tim Rolls wrote: rant. Old Eng. 17th-cent. dance of the jig variety. It originated in Scotland an d N. England. Four examples occur in Playford's The Dancing Master (1657 and 166 5 revisions). The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music | 1996 Any advance on Playford? Smith's New Rant (What happened to the old one?) A Scots Rant A rendition of The Italian Rant [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPL2FXqVc9M Tim On 11 Jul 2011, at 14:06, Gibbons, John wrote: 'Rant', as in 'Morpeth Rant', appeared in Vickers' MS in 1770, predating the Primitive Methodists. But 'Ranters' were another religious sect during the Civil War, so an old name was reapplied to the Primitive Methodists. The use of 'rant' for various dance tunes, in various rhythms, occurs through much of the 18th century, eg The Cameronian's Rant is a reel, The Collier's Rant a song in 6/8. The restricted use of the term to 4/4 tunes like The Morpeth Rant is much more s pecific, and local to Northumberland. It is perhaps significant that Scots Measures went out of fashion about the time rants came in. Both have 8 bars of 4/4. The main difference between the forms is that in the fo rmer, the cadences have a crotchet then two tied (syncopated) crotchets, while rants have a strong 3rd beat, and there is no tie. It would be interesting to know (though we never will) what Morpeth Rant looked like in Vickers before the page got lost. He retained syncopation in similar positions in some hornpipes. John -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[3]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Beha lf Of Tim Rolls Sent: 11 July 2011 13:46 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Rants again Unencumbered as I am by knowledge, experience or understanding of dance steps, I too have asked this question. I am led to believe that the emphasis should be o n the third beat of the bar as this mirrors a larger/more emphatic step in the d ance. I had a look at Moody to see if there's any guidance linguistically. No definite help, we have: Rantan, Rantaan. Used in the phrase on the rantan, indulging one's self in dis orderly and wild conduct as a form of high spirited enjoyment: a milder form of on the rampaadge(sic), on the spree, e.g. He's gyen on the rantan, i.e. his frolic can be sympathetically excused. Ranter 1. A term applied in contemptuous disparagement to the more zealous members of t he Methodist Church - particularly of the Primitive Methodist body - who were gi ven to ardent impromptu prayers, lusty singing of hymns and loud ejaculations of Pious praise during their religious services. Thus: Aa've left the Chorch (Ang lican) an' aa've joined the Ranters.Note, the Primitive Methodist Church origina ted in 1807-1810 and the term Ranter was first used in 1814. 2. By transference, applied to hymns sung in the Primitive Methodist and United Methodist Churches, or in the Salvation Army. These hymns, nowadays sadly out of favour, were characterised by rollicking tunes, half line refrains (sung by alt ernate parts) and rather crude sentiment; but they were enjoyable to sing and we re rendered both lustily and fervently: e.g. Ay, that's a gud aad Rantor that h ymn So can anyone fill in the gap between the hymns and the dance? Or any of the rol licking tunes? I'll put this on the NSP forum as a question too. cheers Tim On 11 Jul 2011, at 13:05, Gibbons, John wrote: Why has this rant thread gone so quiet all last week? What makes a tune sound like a rant, rather than a reel or hornpipe? If I take a (4 in a bar) hornpipe without triplets, speed it up a bit, but not a s much as a reel, smooth out the dotting a bit, and emphasise the odd beats at the expense of the even ones, will I get a rant? How essential are those 3-crotchet cadences? Are there any essential stylistic features that this attempt at a description mi sses? John To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - [5]www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3756 - Release Date: 07/10/11 -- References Visible links 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPL2FXqVc9M 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.avg.com/ Hidden links: 6. http://www.realdictionary.com/?q=cry
[NSP] Re: Rants again
On Mon, 11/7/11, cal...@aol.com cal...@aol.com wrote: All dancers really need is a strong down beat...Never really had a dancer say, I can't dance this dance to that tune. Hello Alec I think the point here is not what can be danced to such and such a tune but which style of tune best suits a certain dance. People in the area I'm talking talking about would usually attend at least two dances per week and these would often start at 10 at night and go on until 6 the next morning. This had two effects; 1) it made the dancers refine their style until it looked and felt wonderful but was economic with no wasted energy and 2) it made them acutely tuned in to which tunes really helped them dance all through the night. The example you gave a link to was typical of the 'earthy' English style that is so very different from the Northumbrian rant style I have in mind. When I said that rant steps could be done to jigs I should have added that they become more akin to pas be bas than rant. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rants again
On 11 Jul 2011, at 20:06, Dave S wrote: Etymology+Origin of rant (verb) 1598, from Du. randten talk foolishly, rave, of unknown origin (cf. Ger. rantzen to frolic, spring about). The noun is first attested 1649, from the verb. Ranters antinomian sect which arose in England c.1645 is attested from 1651; applied 1823 to early Methodists. A 1700 slang dictionary has rantipole a rude wild Boy or Girl. On 7/11/2011 8:32 PM, Tim Rolls wrote: rant. Old Eng. 17th-cent. dance of the jig variety. It originated in Scotland an d N. England. Four examples occur in Playford's The Dancing Master (1657 and 166 5 revisions). The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music | 1996 Any advance on Playford? John Jenkins (1592-1678), composer f music for the viol (viola da gamba), wrote several duos headed 'rant'. His music mainly survives in manuscript so it's hard to date precisely. Thomas Green 73 Huntington Rd, York YO31 8RL 01904-673675 [1]http://homepage.ntlworld.com/greenery/ -- References 1. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/greenery/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
