Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-04-26 Thread Ian Lawrence 
Well, I am a beginner. I have just lost 2 hours trying to do something
which ought to be simple. Perhaps now I have spent 10's of hours
working at my understanding, yet still I have to look up the simplest
essentials, often. And I think knowing what kind of things it is, and
where one might look are necessary lubricants for this process.

I think you probably cannot have too many (documented) examples.
Things which are very obvious to some , are not so obvious to others.

And if too much has to be done by trial and error then everything is
very slow... Very very slow.

For me, there is too much that is cryptic in the Wiki. Often I read
the entry and am no wiser. Each word is well formed, but there is no
mental model emerging. Maybe a wiki is good place for archiving,
curating and exchanging tips, but just not so good for learning from
scratch.

The 'Starting with Context' pdf I find very good, but for later work
all kinds of things are 'bad style', 'deprecated' etc. So maybe a way
in to thinking about what to do is to consider how the newer user
might get a handle on what Context is really for, and why one might
prefer it to manually typesetting documents...

Kind regards

Ian


2011/3/16 Vedran Miletić :
> 2011/3/14 Carlos Breton Besnier 
>>
>>
>> 2011/3/12 Florian Wobbe 
>>>
>>> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
>>>
>>> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>>>
>>
>> I think is needed a installation guide for non-technical. A guide not only
>> for programmers but a simple guide for dummies. Like me, I am no-developer,
>> I write law books. Latex installation and update is very simple for
>> beginners. On Windows with MiKTeX, everyone can write very soon his first
>> document. Not so with ConTeXt, except old stand-alone installation. It's
>> cause of frustration and after several attempts they give up. Then they
>> return to LaTeX (like me too).
>
> Well, with TeX Live 2010 it's very simple to use MkII with both pdfTeX and
> XeTeX. Hopefully, some future version of TeX Live (2011?) will offer the
> same for MkIV. Script is already there, it's just not integrated with
> TeXworks in TeX Live yet.
>
> Regards,
>
> Vedran Miletić
>
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-16 Thread Vedran Miletić 
2011/3/14 Carlos Breton Besnier 

>
>
> 2011/3/12 Florian Wobbe 
>
>>  Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
>>
>> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>>
>>
> I think is needed a installation guide for non-technical. A guide not only
> for programmers but a simple guide for dummies. Like me, I am no-developer,
> I write law books. Latex installation and update is very simple for
> beginners. On Windows with MiKTeX, everyone can write very soon his first
> document. Not so with ConTeXt, except old stand-alone installation. It's
> cause of frustration and after several attempts they give up. Then they
> return to LaTeX (like me too).
>

Well, with TeX Live 2010 it's very simple to use MkII with both pdfTeX and
XeTeX. Hopefully, some future version of TeX Live (2011?) will offer the
same for MkIV. Script is already there, it's just not integrated with
TeXworks in TeX Live yet.

Regards,

Vedran Miletić
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-16 Thread Carlos Breton Besnier 
2011/3/12 Florian Wobbe 

> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
>
> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>
>
I think is needed a installation guide for non-technical. A guide not only
for programmers but a simple guide for dummies. Like me, I am no-developer,
I write law books. Latex installation and update is very simple for
beginners. On Windows with MiKTeX, everyone can write very soon his first
document. Not so with ConTeXt, except old stand-alone installation. It's
cause of frustration and after several attempts they give up. Then they
return to LaTeX (like me too).
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-16 Thread Carlos Breton Besnier 
2011/3/12 Florian Wobbe 

> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
>
> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>
>
I think is needed a installation guide for non-technical. A guide not only
for programmers but a simple guide for dummies. Like me, I write law books.
Latex installation and update is very simple for beginners. On Windows with
MiKTeX, everyone can write very soon his first document. Not so with
ConTeXt, except old stand-alone installation. It's cause of frustration and
after several attempts they give up. Then they return to LaTeX (like me
too).
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-14 Thread mathew 
On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 15:26, Mojca Miklavec
 wrote:
> Except that wiki pages are in a really horrible shape when it comes to
> Installation pages.
[...]
> If anyone has the slightest idea where to start, please do it.

FWIW, I updated the Ubuntu pages last week.

The OS X pages don't seem to be out of date.


mathew
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-14 Thread Mojca Miklavec 
On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 08:46, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> Mojca, this does not need
> much more initial work than fixing the wiki pages, right?

Except that wiki pages are in a really horrible shape when it comes to
Installation pages.

I bet that 90% of pages are outdated with wrong information about how
to break TeX Live 2009 with the latest ConTeXt MKIV version, how to
break MikTeX 2.7 by creating a couple of .bat files to run the latest
ConTeXt, how to install on SuSE from 2007, etc.

I'm just not sure what and where to start fixing anything unless I
create a full list of outdated pages, create a full backup, delete
everything and write everything from scratch.

If anyone has the slightest idea where to start, please do it.

Mojca
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-14 Thread Carlos Breton 
2011/3/12 Florian Wobbe 

> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
>
> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>
>
>

I think is needed a installation guide for non-technical. A guide not only
for programmers but a simple guide for dummies. Like me, I am no-developer,
I write law books. Latex installation and update is very simple for
beginners. On Windows with MiKTeX, everyone can write very soon his first
document. Not so with ConTeXt, except old stand-alone installation. It's
cause of frustration and after several attempts they give up. Then they
return to LaTeX (like me too).
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-14 Thread Alasdair McAndrew 
FWIW, specifications of standard LaTeX styles can be found
here.
It's a closely written 66 page document.

-Alasdair

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 8:17 PM, Martin Schröder  wrote:

> 2011/3/14 Aditya Mahajan :
> > The hard part is figuring out the values (font size, spaces after
> sections,
> > etc) from the LaTeX code. It is difficult to look at
> > http://mirror.hmc.edu/ctan/macros/latex/contrib/IEEEtran/IEEEtran.clsand
> > figure out what is the title size for a 10pt document, or how much space
> > should come between the author block and the start of the two column
> text,
> > etc.
>
> Erm - is that really needed? Today a typical journal's workflow should
> accept articles in LaTeX _markup_, convert that to XML and feed it to an
> XML formatter (which may well use TeX) eventually. I see ConTeXt's role
> there as the XML formatter. Or it could digest LaTeX markup - but then
> it would need more than just the layout.
>
> Best
>Martin
>
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-14 Thread Philipp Gesang 
On 2011-03-13 <23:12:36>, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, Alasdair McAndrew wrote:
> 
> >Speaking as a raw ConTeXt beginner, I would find it very helpful to have a
> >library of different styles: LaTeX, journal, conference and book styles.
> >Although all the information is probably there, it is very scattered around
> >though manuals, the wiki, and other documents, and so is in consequence not
> >always easy to find.
> 
> Why don't you create a wiki page with the **exact** specifications.
> Then others can write the ConTeXt code to show how to achieve that
> specification.

> We can perhaps have a cookbook section on the wiki, which can use
> these specification as exercise.

+1, best idea so far. Not only regarding latex-specific
commonplaces but for typographical tasks in general (along the
lines of “how I implemented Bringhurst’s chapter enumeration”
&c.). Would it suffice to just create another wiki namespace
like the command reference has?

(Entries should have a date stamp and state the context version
they were written for.)

Philipp

>  Without the exact specification,
> it is very difficult to understand what a "journal" style or a
> "book" style means. Not all journals and books have the same style.
> 
> Aditya
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-14 Thread Martin Schröder 
2011/3/14 Aditya Mahajan :
> The hard part is figuring out the values (font size, spaces after sections,
> etc) from the LaTeX code. It is difficult to look at
> http://mirror.hmc.edu/ctan/macros/latex/contrib/IEEEtran/IEEEtran.cls and
> figure out what is the title size for a 10pt document, or how much space
> should come between the author block and the start of the two column text,
> etc.

Erm - is that really needed? Today a typical journal's workflow should
accept articles in LaTeX _markup_, convert that to XML and feed it to an
XML formatter (which may well use TeX) eventually. I see ConTeXt's role
there as the XML formatter. Or it could digest LaTeX markup - but then
it would need more than just the layout.

Best
   Martin
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-14 Thread Taco Hoekwater 

Hi,

On 03/13/2011 12:04 AM, Pontus Lurcock wrote:

On Sat 12 Mar 2011, C. wrote:


2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
Because they already have it in miktex, texlive. What they don't know is
that these versions are outdated and due to the heavy development pretty
far behind. Plus, it should say "Context Standalone" because that is what it
is.


I think "Context Standalone" would be a good name: as I understand it,
"minimals" refers to the fact that it doesn't include other TeX
formats and associated baggage; "standalone" conveys the same idea
with less ambiguity, and hints at the fact that it won't interfere
with your system's package manager.


I agree, that sounds like a good name. Mojca, this does not need
much more initial work than fixing the wiki pages, right?

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-14 Thread Henning Hraban Ramm 


Am 2011-03-14 um 07:33 schrieb Alasdair McAndrew:

Yes, I see that would be a non-trivial problem.  Maybe as a stop-gap  
some ConTeXt files could be provided which at least roughly emulate  
a few standard LaTeX styles?


Again:

We senior ConTeXt users won’t look thoroughly at "a few standard LaTeX  
styles" just to copy their look for a few switchers.
We don’t need them. We design our own styles after our needs. We don’t  
stick to a few "standard" styles. It’s ConTeXt, not LaTeX.


If you come up with specifications, we can help you implementing them.  
Otherwise consider paying one of us for doing annoying, unnecessary  
work.



Greetlings from Lake Constance!
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-13 Thread Alasdair McAndrew 
Yes, I see that would be a non-trivial problem.  Maybe as a stop-gap some
ConTeXt files could be provided which at least roughly emulate a few
standard LaTeX styles?

-Alasdair

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 3:54 PM, Aditya Mahajan  wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, Alasdair McAndrew wrote:
>
>  For example. the LaTeX ieee.sty is available at
>> http://delphiwww.cern.ch/delphi$www/private/det/stc/ieee94/mp/ieee.styand
>> ACM styles at http://www.acm.org/publications/latex_style/.  How hard
>> would
>> it be to emulate these in ConTeXt?
>>
>
> The hard part is figuring out the values (font size, spaces after sections,
> etc) from the LaTeX code. It is difficult to look at
> http://mirror.hmc.edu/ctan/macros/latex/contrib/IEEEtran/IEEEtran.cls and
> figure out what is the title size for a 10pt document, or how much space
> should come between the author block and the start of the two column text,
> etc.
>
> Reverse engineering these values is no fun. That is why I am saying that an
> *exact and complete* spec is needed.
>
> Aditya
>
>
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-13 Thread Aditya Mahajan 

On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, Alasdair McAndrew wrote:


For example. the LaTeX ieee.sty is available at
http://delphiwww.cern.ch/delphi$www/private/det/stc/ieee94/mp/ieee.sty and
ACM styles at http://www.acm.org/publications/latex_style/.  How hard would
it be to emulate these in ConTeXt?


The hard part is figuring out the values (font size, spaces after 
sections, etc) from the LaTeX code. It is difficult to look at 
http://mirror.hmc.edu/ctan/macros/latex/contrib/IEEEtran/IEEEtran.cls and 
figure out what is the title size for a 10pt document, or how much space 
should come between the author block and the start of the two column text, 
etc.


Reverse engineering these values is no fun. That is why I am saying that 
an *exact and complete* spec is needed.


Aditya
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-13 Thread Alasdair McAndrew 
For example. the LaTeX ieee.sty is available at
http://delphiwww.cern.ch/delphi$www/private/det/stc/ieee94/mp/ieee.sty and
ACM styles at http://www.acm.org/publications/latex_style/.  How hard would
it be to emulate these in ConTeXt?

-Alasdair

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 2:32 PM, mathew  wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 19:07, Alasdair McAndrew  wrote:
> > Speaking as a raw ConTeXt beginner, I would find it very helpful to have
> a
> > library of different styles: LaTeX, journal, conference and book styles.
>
> This is what I've been setting out to do, build a set of examples. So
> far I've got a custom font example (posted for comment last week) and
> a personal letter template.
>
> I looked at the letter package, but that's far too general. I wanted
> something simple and self-contained that I could take and modify, not
> a framework.
>
> So yes, a set of examples of layouts is exactly what I would be likely
> to use myself.
>
>
> mathew
>
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-13 Thread mathew 
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 19:07, Alasdair McAndrew  wrote:
> Speaking as a raw ConTeXt beginner, I would find it very helpful to have a
> library of different styles: LaTeX, journal, conference and book styles.

This is what I've been setting out to do, build a set of examples. So
far I've got a custom font example (posted for comment last week) and
a personal letter template.

I looked at the letter package, but that's far too general. I wanted
something simple and self-contained that I could take and modify, not
a framework.

So yes, a set of examples of layouts is exactly what I would be likely
to use myself.


mathew
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-13 Thread Aditya Mahajan 

On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, Alasdair McAndrew wrote:


Speaking as a raw ConTeXt beginner, I would find it very helpful to have a
library of different styles: LaTeX, journal, conference and book styles.
Although all the information is probably there, it is very scattered around
though manuals, the wiki, and other documents, and so is in consequence not
always easy to find.


Why don't you create a wiki page with the **exact** specifications. Then 
others can write the ConTeXt code to show how to achieve that 
specification.


We can perhaps have a cookbook section on the wiki, which can use these 
specification as exercises. Without the exact specification, it is very 
difficult to understand what a "journal" style or a "book" style means. 
Not all journals and books have the same style.


Aditya
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-13 Thread Alasdair McAndrew 
Speaking as a raw ConTeXt beginner, I would find it very helpful to have a
library of different styles: LaTeX, journal, conference and book styles.
Although all the information is probably there, it is very scattered around
though manuals, the wiki, and other documents, and so is in consequence not
always easy to find.

cheers,
Alasdair

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Aditya Mahajan  wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Mar 2011, Henry House wrote:
>
>  Procházka Lukáš wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?

>>>
>>> For LaTeX incomers: it would be good to provide a sample setup (module?)
>>> which would make Ctx generated .pdf looking very closely to that been
>>> generated by LaTeX.
>>>
>>> Now, if you see a .pdf document and you are familiar with LaTeX, you
>>> recognize immediately whether or not it was generated by LaTeX (Word's
>>> signature is also unmatchable).
>>>
>>
> I don't think that we should try to copy that style.
>
>
>  The perfect feature of ConTeXt is that all these features may be
>>> systematically altered (often [almost] impossible in LaTeX) but you must
>>> search enough and study (and maybe ask the forum) to get the result which
>>> would fulfil your aesthetic requirements.
>>>
>>
>> I strongly agree that sample set-up code (ideally well-commented so that
>> it also serves as a tutorial of sorts) to reproduce the style of LaTeX
>> would be helpful.
>>
>
> A better idea will be to show how to create ConTeXt style files for well
> defined styles e.g., style for some journal, say AMS or IEEE, or even the
> style of LaTeX (if someone can point out its exact specification)
>
>
>  The appearance of LaTeX documents isn't perfect but it
>> produces reasonably high-quality results suitable for complex technical
>> documents right out of the box of the box without any tweaking, whereas
>> ConTeXt requires (at least it did for me) some trouble to set it up for
>> the first time. To some extent this is not because of the merit of the
>> LaTeX design itself but the fact that it is familiar and therefore
>> highly readable to someone used to reading it. It is also the point of
>> departure for a LaTeX user wanting to convert to using ConTeXt; hence, i
>> would imagine many such people would prefer to tweak a LaTeX-like
>> document appearance to better suit their needs rather than starting with
>> something quite different. Certainly, this was the case for me; being
>> basically satisfied with my LaTeX documents but wanting more control and
>> the option to use the advanced features of ConTeXt. Having sample set-up
>> code that emulated LaTeX would have eased the initial transition for me.
>>
>
> I agree, partially. One of the difficulties in getting a good design with
> ConTeXt is that you should know what a good design is! It you have a
> pre-specified style guideline, then it is easy to reproduce it in ConTeXt.
> If not, you can be stuck up experimenting whether you the space above a
> section be twice as big the space below it or the other way round.
>
> Aditya
>
> ___
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
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>


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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-13 Thread Aditya Mahajan 

On Sat, 12 Mar 2011, Henry House wrote:


Procházka Lukáš wrote:
[...]

5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?


For LaTeX incomers: it would be good to provide a sample setup 
(module?) which would make Ctx generated .pdf looking very closely to 
that been generated by LaTeX.


Now, if you see a .pdf document and you are familiar with LaTeX, you 
recognize immediately whether or not it was generated by LaTeX (Word's 
signature is also unmatchable).


I don't think that we should try to copy that style.

The perfect feature of ConTeXt is that all these features may be 
systematically altered (often [almost] impossible in LaTeX) but you 
must search enough and study (and maybe ask the forum) to get the 
result which would fulfil your aesthetic requirements.


I strongly agree that sample set-up code (ideally well-commented so that
it also serves as a tutorial of sorts) to reproduce the style of LaTeX
would be helpful.


A better idea will be to show how to create ConTeXt style files for well 
defined styles e.g., style for some journal, say AMS or IEEE, or even the 
style of LaTeX (if someone can point out its exact specification)



The appearance of LaTeX documents isn't perfect but it
produces reasonably high-quality results suitable for complex technical
documents right out of the box of the box without any tweaking, whereas
ConTeXt requires (at least it did for me) some trouble to set it up for
the first time. To some extent this is not because of the merit of the
LaTeX design itself but the fact that it is familiar and therefore
highly readable to someone used to reading it. It is also the point of
departure for a LaTeX user wanting to convert to using ConTeXt; hence, i
would imagine many such people would prefer to tweak a LaTeX-like
document appearance to better suit their needs rather than starting with
something quite different. Certainly, this was the case for me; being
basically satisfied with my LaTeX documents but wanting more control and
the option to use the advanced features of ConTeXt. Having sample set-up
code that emulated LaTeX would have eased the initial transition for me.


I agree, partially. One of the difficulties in getting a good design with 
ConTeXt is that you should know what a good design is! It you have a 
pre-specified style guideline, then it is easy to reproduce it in ConTeXt. 
If not, you can be stuck up experimenting whether you the space above a 
section be twice as big the space below it or the other way round.


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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-13 Thread Thomas Schmitz 

On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 15:35:54 -0800
 Henry House  wrote:



I strongly agree that sample set-up code (ideally 
well-commented so that
it also serves as a tutorial of sorts) to reproduce the 
style of LaTeX
would be helpful. The appearance of LaTeX documents 
isn't perfect but it
produces reasonably high-quality results suitable for 
complex technical
documents right out of the box of the box without any 
tweaking, whereas
ConTeXt requires (at least it did for me) some trouble 
to set it up for
the first time. To some extent this is not because of 
the merit of the
LaTeX design itself but the fact that it is familiar and 
therefore
highly readable to someone used to reading it. It is 
also the point of
departure for a LaTeX user wanting to convert to using 
ConTeXt; hence, i
would imagine many such people would prefer to tweak a 
LaTeX-like
document appearance to better suit their needs rather 
than starting with
something quite different. Certainly, this was the case 
for me; being
basically satisfied with my LaTeX documents but wanting 
more control and
the option to use the advanced features of ConTeXt. 
Having sample set-up
code that emulated LaTeX would have eased the initial 
transition for me.




Pardon my French, but this thread is getting less and less 
useful, probably because it addresses too many issues at a 
time. It is rapidly degenerating from a "how to 
restructure the garden" into a "things I wish others would 
do so my life becomes easier." If someone says "I added a 
section to the wiki which explains which ConTeXt settings 
will give a document equivalent to LaTeX XXX class," fine 
- I would consider this superfluous, but it may help some 
people. But even strongly agreeing that somebody else 
should write a tutorial isn't getting any work done. And 
the assumption that most or all ConTeXt users are, at 
their heart, LaTeX renegades is not true, I think. Many 
advanced users haven't used LaTeX ever or in a long time 
and wouldn't want to waste their time on learning it just 
for the sake of such a comparison.


Sorry for being so blunt, but I think this will be more 
helpful if we stay focussed.


Thomas
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-12 Thread Taco Hoekwater 

On 03/13/2011 12:35 AM, Henry House wrote:

Procházka Lukáš wrote:
[...]

5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?


For LaTeX incomers: it would be good to provide a sample setup (module?) which 
would make Ctx generated .pdf looking very closely to that been generated by 
LaTeX.

Now, if you see a .pdf document and you are familiar with LaTeX, you recognize 
immediately whether or not it was generated by LaTeX (Word's signature is also 
unmatchable).

If you create a first document with ConTeXt (moreover when migrating from LaTeX), you 
probably won't be satisfied with the default look (letters too big, heads not bold, 
spacing before/after heads too different from LaTeX's; and the LaTeX default document 
looks very "symphonic" in my opinion) (but also I can imagine that many Ctx 
defaults cannot be changed due to backward compatibility reasons).

The perfect feature of ConTeXt is that all these features may be systematically 
altered (often [almost] impossible in LaTeX) but you must search enough and 
study (and maybe ask the forum) to get the result which would fulfil your 
aesthetic requirements.


I strongly agree that sample set-up code (ideally well-commented so that
it also serves as a tutorial of sorts) to reproduce the style of LaTeX
would be helpful. The appearance of LaTeX documents isn't perfect but it
produces reasonably high-quality results suitable for complex technical
documents right out of the box of the box without any tweaking, whereas
ConTeXt requires (at least it did for me) some trouble to set it up for
the first time.


First, let me say that I don't agree that the default LaTeX appearance
is high-quality at all. To me, it looks like crap, and IIRC Lamport
actually designed it 'ugly' with to encourage people to create
something better looking themselves. Of course most people don't bother
(which is typical and he could have seen that coming) but still...

The same applies to the default context setup: it is also too ugly
to be used for real world documents, and nevertheless many people leave
it as is.

This means that (for both LaTeX and ConTeXt) the defaults cannot be
changed any more because of portability problems in existing documents.

But nothing is to stop anybody from creating a different class file
for LaTeX or a different module/environment for ConTeXt that produces
something 'better'.

So, if the intent is to lure people away from LaTeX, why not create
a set of environment files to mimic LaTeX's article/book/report
and upload them to the garden?

Best wishes,
Taco



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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-12 Thread Vnpenguin 
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 21:08, C.  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I recently started using context. I migrated from latex to xelatex to
> context. Mainly because of the better font support. I now value context also
> for its superior abilities. I feel that I can do more stuff without the use
> of \usepackage for this, \usepackage for that. When I read the
> documentation, I get the feeling that a lot of thoughts went into the
> options that are presented but it's still easy to customize (if you know how
> to do it :D)
> Here is my input to your questions.
>
> 1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?
> The difference is not well explained. Also, mkii (which I don't use) sounds
> like "the old version". When I first read about context, it was like "well,
> we have this and that (mkii and mkiv)" but it should say "we have mkii,
> [insert here: what can it do, for what users is it recommended, pros/cons]
> and mkiv [insert info]. If you are not sure what to use, then you should use
> mkiv, because that is the future." Or something like that.

For me I don't care mkii. I use only mkiv. It's better to separate
completely mkii from mkiv distribution. Yes, I see, in this case there
is some work more for ConTeXt team.

> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
> Because they already have it in miktex, texlive. What they don't know is
> that these versions are outdated and due to the heavy development pretty
> far behind. Plus, it should say "Context Standalone" because that is what it
> is.

Yes, agreed !

mkii should be named "ConTeXt Legacy" ?
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-12 Thread luigi scarso 
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 6:03 AM, Pontus Lurcock  wrote:
> On Sat 12 Mar 2011, mathew wrote:
>
>> My experience on Ubuntu is that if you install the ConTeXt minimals
>> in your path, they break a bunch of stuff from TeXLive, such as
>> pdfcrop.
>
> I have the minimals installed but with no automatic setup in .bashrc
> or similar. So when I need to run ConTeXt, I fire up a new terminal
> and explicitly ‘source /path/to/minimals/context/tex/setuptex’ before
> doing anything else. Anything I run in a different terminal just gets
> the standard paths for the system's TeXLive installation.
this is the right way to work with minimals (in linux is easy than windows).

-- 
luigi
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-12 Thread Pontus Lurcock 
On Sat 12 Mar 2011, mathew wrote:

> My experience on Ubuntu is that if you install the ConTeXt minimals
> in your path, they break a bunch of stuff from TeXLive, such as
> pdfcrop.

I have the minimals installed but with no automatic setup in .bashrc
or similar. So when I need to run ConTeXt, I fire up a new terminal
and explicitly ‘source /path/to/minimals/context/tex/setuptex’ before
doing anything else. Anything I run in a different terminal just gets
the standard paths for the system's TeXLive installation.

Pont
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-12 Thread mathew 
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 06:21, Florian Wobbe  wrote:

> Then I am aware of many people who are reluctant to install the
>minimals. I now wonder why I (myself) was unwilling to install the
>minimals in the first place, having TeXLive installed already. For one
>it was because of the extra effort.

My experience on Ubuntu is that if you install the ConTeXt minimals in
your path, they break a bunch of stuff from TeXLive, such as pdfcrop.
I ended up writing my own pdfcrop because I couldn't work out how to
get the one from my distribution working at the same time as the
ConTeXt minimals.

I'd have gone back to my distro's copy of ConTeXt, if it wasn't for
the fact that it dates back to 2009 and I'd already hit a bug in it
that's fixed in the minimals.


mathew
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-12 Thread Henry House 
Procházka Lukáš wrote:
[...]
> > 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
> 
> For LaTeX incomers: it would be good to provide a sample setup (module?) 
> which would make Ctx generated .pdf looking very closely to that been 
> generated by LaTeX.
> 
> Now, if you see a .pdf document and you are familiar with LaTeX, you 
> recognize immediately whether or not it was generated by LaTeX (Word's 
> signature is also unmatchable).
> 
> If you create a first document with ConTeXt (moreover when migrating from 
> LaTeX), you probably won't be satisfied with the default look (letters too 
> big, heads not bold, spacing before/after heads too different from LaTeX's; 
> and the LaTeX default document looks very "symphonic" in my opinion) (but 
> also I can imagine that many Ctx defaults cannot be changed due to backward 
> compatibility reasons).
> 
> The perfect feature of ConTeXt is that all these features may be 
> systematically altered (often [almost] impossible in LaTeX) but you must 
> search enough and study (and maybe ask the forum) to get the result which 
> would fulfil your aesthetic requirements.

I strongly agree that sample set-up code (ideally well-commented so that
it also serves as a tutorial of sorts) to reproduce the style of LaTeX
would be helpful. The appearance of LaTeX documents isn't perfect but it
produces reasonably high-quality results suitable for complex technical
documents right out of the box of the box without any tweaking, whereas
ConTeXt requires (at least it did for me) some trouble to set it up for
the first time. To some extent this is not because of the merit of the
LaTeX design itself but the fact that it is familiar and therefore
highly readable to someone used to reading it. It is also the point of
departure for a LaTeX user wanting to convert to using ConTeXt; hence, i
would imagine many such people would prefer to tweak a LaTeX-like
document appearance to better suit their needs rather than starting with
something quite different. Certainly, this was the case for me; being
basically satisfied with my LaTeX documents but wanting more control and
the option to use the advanced features of ConTeXt. Having sample set-up
code that emulated LaTeX would have eased the initial transition for me.
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-12 Thread Pontus Lurcock 
On Sat 12 Mar 2011, C. wrote:

> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
> Because they already have it in miktex, texlive. What they don't know is
> that these versions are outdated and due to the heavy development pretty
> far behind. Plus, it should say "Context Standalone" because that is what it
> is.

I think "Context Standalone" would be a good name: as I understand it,
"minimals" refers to the fact that it doesn't include other TeX
formats and associated baggage; "standalone" conveys the same idea
with less ambiguity, and hints at the fact that it won't interfere
with your system's package manager.

> 3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
> I for one would welcome to see more guides like the "titles" guide.

Agreed. I've been learning Python matplotlib at the same time as
ConTeXt, and find that the quickest way is to pick an example plot
from the (extensive) gallery that looks similar to what I want, then
progressively modify the source code into what I need. A similar
collection of common use-cases for ConTeXt would be great for
beginners, I think.

> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
> I don't know.

Someone above suggested packaging layouts to approximate the standard
LaTeX look, and I too think that this would help. Not that I find the
standard LaTeX look very pretty, but familiarity is a powerful
force...

Pont
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-12 Thread C. 
Hello,

I recently started using context. I migrated from latex to xelatex to
context. Mainly because of the better font support. I now value context also
for its superior abilities. I feel that I can do more stuff without the use
of \usepackage for this, \usepackage for that. When I read the
documentation, I get the feeling that a lot of thoughts went into the
options that are presented but it's still easy to customize (if you know how
to do it :D)
Here is my input to your questions.

1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?
The difference is not well explained. Also, mkii (which I don't use) sounds
like "the old version". When I first read about context, it was like "well,
we have this and that (mkii and mkiv)" but it should say "we have mkii,
[insert here: what can it do, for what users is it recommended, pros/cons]
and mkiv [insert info]. If you are not sure what to use, then you should use
mkiv, because that is the future." Or something like that.

2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
Because they already have it in miktex, texlive. What they don't know is
that these versions are outdated and due to the heavy development pretty
far behind. Plus, it should say "Context Standalone" because that is what it
is.

3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
I for one would welcome to see more guides like the "titles" guide. Nicely
commented and explained code, result as picture. For better structure it
would be an option to use code blocks that can be hidden, with a small [+]
in front that you can click to see the code.

4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden for
search engine requests?
I read the manual section, if that does not answer it, I google " context". Most of the time that takes me to the mail archive.

5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
I don't know.

Maybe that helps.
Christian



> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: Florian Wobbe [mailto:florian.wo...@awi.de]
> Gesendet: Samstag, 12. März 2011 13:21
> An: mailing list for ConTeXt users
> Betreff: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
> 
> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
> 
> 1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?
> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
> 3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
> 4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden for
> search engine requests?
> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
> 
> Especially answers from new users to the first three points would be
helpful
> to answer the fifth point I guess.
> 
> >> In general I find it difficult to differentiate between mkiv and mkii
related
> information in the wiki. How could we better structure the wiki to make it
> easier for the reader? Disambiguation pages, mkiv/mkii sections,
> independent pages with mkiv/mkii in headerline?
> > Just my 2 cents on this: difficult, because you won't be able to make
> everybody happy. Every now and then, I see a new user on the list who asks
> about "installing mkiv" and doesn't realize that it is not really
something
> which you have to install additionally. We shouldn't scare those users
> because in so many cases, mkii and mkiv are exactly identical, so that
would
> be an arguments against a too stric separation.
> 
> I understand the problem.
> 
> Having said that, pages like "Using Mark IV" or "Install Mark IV" should
be
> renamed to "installing/using context".
> 
> Maybe it would help to include a little box "important things to know" on
the
> installation page and explain shortly that for historical reasons mkii and
mkiv
> are distributed together and that the former is regarded deprecated.
Maybe
> link to a new page: Differences between miiv/mkii and how both are invoked
> (context vs. texexec).
> 
> Then I am aware of many people who are reluctant to install the minimals.
I
> now wonder why I (myself) was unwilling to install the minimals in the
first
> place, having TeXLive installed already. For one it was because of the
extra
> effort. But I recall it was also the name "The ConTeXt MINIMAL
distribution"
> that kept me. The name "minimal" somehow suggested something
> incomplete or minor to me. It took me a while to figure out that the
minimals
> is actually more than you get from TexLive. Therefore, I would suggest
> leaving out "minimal" and advertise the superior instead.
> 
> > But of course you're also right that it's frustrating for users if they
can't find
> relevant information for the areas where the two differ. As long as mkiv
> has

Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-12 Thread Jaroslav Hajtmar 

Hello ConTeXist.

I installed ConTeXt minimals until pretty late. Before, I used the 
context in the TeXLive. For a long time I really thought that Minimals 
are "incomplete" versions of minimal and that there was something more. 
I was very pleasantly surprised at how easily Minimals installed and is 
very good, it is easy to automatically update the version. MkII I 
completely stopped using to create new documents using the MkII and 
translate only the old stuff.
I know from experience that newcomers and MkII MKIV confusing and I have 
sometimes a problem with incompatibility, because I have long used the MkII.


Personally I would advocate a clear separation of the MkII and MKIV in 
the garden and change "minimals" name to the name that is so misleading 
- eg directly MarkTeX :-).


Greetings Jaroslav



Dne 12.3.2011 17:20, Procházka Lukáš napsal(a):

Hello,

my personal opinion(s) (some of them very similar to Marco's ones):


1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?


(Cannot say; I started with MkIV so for me ConTeXt = MkIV.)


2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?


The word "minimals" is a bit confusing. It implies that there must be 
also Ctx "standard" or Ctx "maximal".


Better to be just "ConTeXt"; and if one finds something missing (e.g. 
fonts? modules?), he may be directed towards some "extras".



3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden 
for search engine requests?


The problem is too-many-incomplete (or obsolete) information sources. 
Wiki contains many stubs; there are options for commands which are not 
explained at all, even not mentioned or demonstrated by an example.


Similar for contextref.pdf - there are many "todo areas", but be it. 
But also many command options are not explained at all.


From the user's point, when one has a problem, this means 1) search 
the wiki (he may remember that lately he didn't find an answer, but he 
should try again, what about if the topic/stub was added/completed?), 
2) search the manual (personally, my most favourite source) and 3) to 
post a question to the mailing list (fortunately, people here do 
answer swiftly and even very "basic" questions are answered patiently).


In my opinion, one information source would be good, a Ctx reference. 
It might be divided to several parts (e.g. Fonts, Tables, Document 
Structure Elements, Layers and Overlays, Colouring ConTeXt, ConTeXt 
and XML...).


It should be decided whether the primary source is to be the wiki or 
the Ctx manual (.pdf).



5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?


For LaTeX incomers: it would be good to provide a sample setup 
(module?) which would make Ctx generated .pdf looking very closely to 
that been generated by LaTeX.


Now, if you see a .pdf document and you are familiar with LaTeX, you 
recognize immediately whether or not it was generated by LaTeX (Word's 
signature is also unmatchable).


If you create a first document with ConTeXt (moreover when migrating 
from LaTeX), you probably won't be satisfied with the default look 
(letters too big, heads not bold, spacing before/after heads too 
different from LaTeX's; and the LaTeX default document looks very 
"symphonic" in my opinion) (but also I can imagine that many Ctx 
defaults cannot be changed due to backward compatibility reasons).


The perfect feature of ConTeXt is that all these features may be 
systematically altered (often [almost] impossible in LaTeX) but you 
must search enough and study (and maybe ask the forum) to get the 
result which would fulfil your aesthetic requirements.




Treat all above as a personal point of view.

I appreciate all work around Ctx and documenting it; and as an active 
programmer (including writing a user reference) I can imagine effort 
which must be make to improve a program, to test it and to keep the 
documentation up-to-date, including adding description of new features 
(and samples for them) and removing the deprecated ones.


Best regards,

Lukas


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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-12 Thread Procházka Lukáš 

Hello,

my personal opinion(s) (some of them very similar to Marco's ones):


1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?


(Cannot say; I started with MkIV so for me ConTeXt = MkIV.)


2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?


The word "minimals" is a bit confusing. It implies that there must be also Ctx "standard" 
or Ctx "maximal".

Better to be just "ConTeXt"; and if one finds something missing (e.g. fonts? modules?), 
he may be directed towards some "extras".


3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden for search 
engine requests?


The problem is too-many-incomplete (or obsolete) information sources. Wiki 
contains many stubs; there are options for commands which are not explained at 
all, even not mentioned or demonstrated by an example.

Similar for contextref.pdf - there are many "todo areas", but be it. But also 
many command options are not explained at all.

From the user's point, when one has a problem, this means 1) search the wiki (he may 
remember that lately he didn't find an answer, but he should try again, what about if the 
topic/stub was added/completed?), 2) search the manual (personally, my most favourite 
source) and 3) to post a question to the mailing list (fortunately, people here do answer 
swiftly and even very "basic" questions are answered patiently).

In my opinion, one information source would be good, a Ctx reference. It might 
be divided to several parts (e.g. Fonts, Tables, Document Structure Elements, 
Layers and Overlays, Colouring ConTeXt, ConTeXt and XML...).

It should be decided whether the primary source is to be the wiki or the Ctx 
manual (.pdf).


5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?


For LaTeX incomers: it would be good to provide a sample setup (module?) which 
would make Ctx generated .pdf looking very closely to that been generated by 
LaTeX.

Now, if you see a .pdf document and you are familiar with LaTeX, you recognize 
immediately whether or not it was generated by LaTeX (Word's signature is also 
unmatchable).

If you create a first document with ConTeXt (moreover when migrating from LaTeX), you 
probably won't be satisfied with the default look (letters too big, heads not bold, 
spacing before/after heads too different from LaTeX's; and the LaTeX default document 
looks very "symphonic" in my opinion) (but also I can imagine that many Ctx 
defaults cannot be changed due to backward compatibility reasons).

The perfect feature of ConTeXt is that all these features may be systematically 
altered (often [almost] impossible in LaTeX) but you must search enough and 
study (and maybe ask the forum) to get the result which would fulfil your 
aesthetic requirements.



Treat all above as a personal point of view.

I appreciate all work around Ctx and documenting it; and as an active 
programmer (including writing a user reference) I can imagine effort which must 
be make to improve a program, to test it and to keep the documentation 
up-to-date, including adding description of new features (and samples for them) 
and removing the deprecated ones.

Best regards,

Lukas


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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-12 Thread Mojca Miklavec 
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 14:05, Marco wrote:
> On 2011-03-12 Florian Wobbe wrote:
>
>> Then I am aware of many people who are reluctant to install the minimals. I
>> now wonder why I (myself) was unwilling to install the minimals in the
>> first place, having TeXLive installed already. For one it was because of
>> the extra effort. But I recall it was also the name "The ConTeXt MINIMAL
>> distribution" that kept me. The name "minimal" somehow suggested something
>> incomplete or minor to me. It took me a while to figure out that the
>> minimals is actually more than you get from TexLive. Therefore, I would
>> suggest leaving out "minimal" and advertise the superior instead.

Interesting point :)

> Very true. But it's an established name, I don't believe that it's likely to
> be changed.

Well, I have been warned several times that we should change the name.

I'm procrastinating for over a year already to finish and release a
new version (that will be even more minimal, but with more optional
fonts etc.) on the new server. It would be an option to rename it to
"The ConTeXt Distribution", but the pet name "minimals" will probably
stay :)

Mojca
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Re: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-12 Thread Marco 
On 2011-03-12 Florian Wobbe  wrote:

> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
> 
> 1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?

Because the old manuals only mention mkii and many things have changed in mkiv
and don't work in mkii. It is not easy for beginners to choose between mkii
and mkiv. And many are not aware of the two different (and incompatible)
versions and mix them up.

> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?

First:
Users like to install software using the package management system. Installing
software manually is considered evil. For software that is updated frequently
usually ppa links are provided for the repository.

Second:
You mentioned it already. Users tend to install »maximals«, not minimals, they
don't like rectricted versions if you can get the whole. ;)

> 3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?

Make it clear that the minimals are the standard way of using ConTeXt, not
TeXlive when they want an up-to-date ConTeXt distribution. 

A clear advise for mkiv and contra mkii. mkiv is the way to go in the future.

> 4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden for
> search engine requests?

I don't see a problem there (but still, maybe other people have). Searching
the mailing list, the garden or google for context + pragma usually points to
the right direction.

> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?

Provide examples using the described features, so they have a point to start
from. This is solved in a good way in the pdf documents, not really on the
wiki.

> I understand the problem.
> 
> Having said that, pages like "Using Mark IV" or "Install Mark IV" should be
> renamed to "installing/using context".

ACK

> Then I am aware of many people who are reluctant to install the minimals. I
> now wonder why I (myself) was unwilling to install the minimals in the
> first place, having TeXLive installed already. For one it was because of
> the extra effort. But I recall it was also the name "The ConTeXt MINIMAL
> distribution" that kept me. The name "minimal" somehow suggested something
> incomplete or minor to me. It took me a while to figure out that the
> minimals is actually more than you get from TexLive. Therefore, I would
> suggest leaving out "minimal" and advertise the superior instead.

Very true. But it's an established name, I don't believe that it's likely to
be changed.


Marco


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[NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

2011-03-12 Thread Florian Wobbe 
Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:

1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?
2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden for search 
engine requests?
5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?

Especially answers from new users to the first three points would be helpful to 
answer the fifth point I guess.

>> In general I find it difficult to differentiate between mkiv and mkii 
>> related  information in the wiki. How could we better structure the wiki to 
>> make it easier for the reader? Disambiguation pages, mkiv/mkii sections, 
>> independent pages with mkiv/mkii in headerline?
> Just my 2 cents on this: difficult, because you won't be able to make 
> everybody happy. Every now and then, I see a new user on the list who asks 
> about "installing mkiv" and doesn't realize that it is not really something 
> which you have to install additionally. We shouldn't scare those users 
> because in so many cases, mkii and mkiv are exactly identical, so that would 
> be an arguments against a too stric separation.

I understand the problem.

Having said that, pages like "Using Mark IV" or "Install Mark IV" should be 
renamed to "installing/using context".

Maybe it would help to include a little box "important things to know" on the 
installation page and explain shortly that for historical reasons mkii and mkiv 
are distributed together and that the former is regarded deprecated.  Maybe 
link to a new page: Differences between miiv/mkii and how both are invoked 
(context vs. texexec).

Then I am aware of many people who are reluctant to install the minimals. I now 
wonder why I (myself) was unwilling to install the minimals in the first place, 
having TeXLive installed already. For one it was because of the extra effort. 
But I recall it was also the name "The ConTeXt MINIMAL distribution" that kept 
me. The name "minimal" somehow suggested something incomplete or minor to me. 
It took me a while to figure out that the minimals is actually more than you 
get from TexLive. Therefore, I would suggest leaving out "minimal" and 
advertise the superior instead.

> But of course you're also right that it's frustrating for users if they can't 
> find relevant information for the areas where the two differ. As long as mkiv 
> hasn't settled, this is not easy...

In deed. I guess this has most relevance for people new to context, especially 
those who know latex already and are used to find help easily.

>> We should add criterium=cite and criterium=text to the Wiki (Bibliography 
>> MKIV page: http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliography_mkiv).
> 
> You are of course right, but I assume Hans is working on bibliographies right 
> now (he promised to finish something which I need for a project in March, so 
> that leaves him another two weeks ;-), so we should maybe wait a bit.

OK, fine. I'm curious what new feature this will bring to us!

> criterium=cite should work as well, but doesn't right now.
> 
>> In the beginning it was not clear to me, that 
>> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliography refers to the MKII implementation 
>> of Taco. Therefore, I would suggest to rename Bibliography to 
>> Bibliography_mkii and create an alias Bibliography that redirects to 
>> Bibliography_mkiv instead. In the wiki pages Bibliography_mkiv and 
>> Bibliography_mkii the first sentence should state that the page is related 
>> to mkii/mkiv only and link to the other page. Do you think this is 
>> reasonable?
> 
> I had begun rewriting the page. There is now 
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliographies which links to the other pages, 
> and which is linked to on the front page. But another context-related project 
> kept me away from this and I never finished this, so fell free to shuffle and 
> rewrite things!

I see. I was not aware of this page. I usually find information on the wiki by 
searching for: "site:wiki.contextgarden.net placepublications". So if there are 
actually  disambiguation pages for mkiv/mkii it makes sense to include 
mkiv/mkii on both pages (not just one).

>> I would like to add a section on customising bibstyle files and add space 
>> for sharing reference styles of different journals. What do you think?
> 
> Again, that's a very good idea, but we should maybe wait just a bit till the 
> dust settles a bit.

All right.

Best,
Florian

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