Re: [NTG-context] body text invades space for notes
On 3/4/20 12:44 PM, Jean-Pierre Delange wrote: > Dear Pablo, > > It seems that we never should say "never" about things which appear all > over the real world. I just go back to a previous assertion you made here. Dear Jean-Pierre, I said “I have never seen that...” not “I will never see that...”. > I agree with you about footnotes which should be placed on the same page > (I quote) : > >> Bottom notes are somewhat tricky in ConTeXt. The user expects that these >> notes (either footnotes, or linenotes) aren’t moved to the next page. I >> mean, no reader expects to find a full footnote in the next page from >> the one that calls it. (At least, I have never seen that in any book >> read or paged through.) > [...] > As a kind of sample, see the French translation of Nichomachean Ethics > by Jean Tricot (1983 edition), Jean Vrin publisher, pages 201, 225-226, > 245-246, etc. One can notice an effort to reduce the body text in order > to let some space to footnotes. But this effort flaws on several pages... This makes the perfect case for using endnotes. > A way had have been chosen by publishers : "don't abuse about > footnotes!", which is clearly impossible within academic books in > Humanities... Using endnotes would be a much easier approach. Pablo -- http://www.ousia.tk ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] body text invades space for notes
On 3/4/20 12:07 PM, Philipp A. wrote: > Hi Pablo, > > Thank you for the help! > I’m not using lists on that page … what I do use is a figure with > location=left, which is probably the culprit, as it ends up pretty close > to the footnote. Hi Philipp, I thought lists were the main problem for footnotes to be invaded, but I was wrong. > Is there any interest in fixing this longstanding bug? It’s the only > feature that’s just consistently broken for me … I’m afraid that ConTeXt has changed the way that deals with footnotes. A side effect is this accidental invasion from body text in foonote space. Before it went worse, the problem was paragraph notes. I reported back then, but I saw that this was a blocker for anything related to critical editions in my case. I think Hans is interested in solving this (or at least, in not having broken features in ConTeXt), but it might be very hard to track. I’m afraid I cannot provide a sample. I get text running in footnotes spaeces with Markdown sources and a rather complex ConTeXt environment. I wonder if it would be possible to fix the cause by providing a MWE. Sorry for not being helpless at this issue, Pablo -- http://www.ousia.tk ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] body text invades space for notes
Dear Pablo,
It seems that we never should say "never" about things which appear all
over the real world. I just go back to a previous assertion you made here.
I agree with you about footnotes which should be placed on the same page
(I quote) :
> Bottom notes are somewhat tricky in ConTeXt. The user expects that
these
> notes (either footnotes, or linenotes) aren’t moved to the next
page. I
> mean, no reader expects to find a full footnote in the next page from
> the one that calls it. (At least, I have never seen that in any book
> read or paged through.)
But, I am afraid to inform you that it is a kind of way of French
printing, especially in Philosophy publishers (which are not known to be
devoted to publish beautiful/strictly edited/... books).
As a kind of sample, see the French translation of Nichomachean Ethics
by Jean Tricot (1983 edition), Jean Vrin publisher, pages 201, 225-226,
245-246, etc. One can notice an effort to reduce the body text in order
to let some space to footnotes. But this effort flaws on several pages ...
A way had have been chosen by publishers : "don't abuse about footnotes
!", which is clearly impossible within academic books in Humanities ...
JP
Le 04/03/2020 à 12:07, Philipp A. a écrit :
Hi Pablo,
Thank you for the help!
I’m not using lists on that page … what I do use is a figure with
location=left, which is probably the culprit, as it ends up pretty
close to the footnote.
Is there any interest in fixing this longstanding bug? It’s the only
feature that’s just consistently broken for me …
Best, Phil
Am Di., 25. Feb. 2020 um 22:15 Uhr schrieb Pablo Rodriguez
mailto:oi...@gmx.es>>:
On 2/18/20 11:17 AM, Philipp A. wrote:
> For me it’s even worse (in mkiv), a paragraph of body text
completely
> overlaps my footnote.
>
> Where are the bottom notes placed? In the footer? Or how does it
work?
> How to debug it?
Hi Philipp,
I’m afraid that this misbehaviour is caused by the use of lists in the
same page.
Even not using lists, the space before seems not to be honored when
using \setupnote[footnote].
Note handling seems to have been improved in both LMTX and MkIV. A
side-effect of this new handling is the random clash between body and
notes texts when using lists in the same page.
BTW, foonotes cannot be placed in the footer.
\showframe\showgrid
\setuppapersize[A9]
\starttext
\dorecurse{3}{%
text\footnote{note}\\}
\stoptext
Sorry, but I’m afraid that I don’t know any way of debugging it.
Pablo
> Am Sa., 14. Dez. 2019 um 19:41 Uhr schrieb Pablo Rodriguez:
>
> Dear list,
>
> I’m afraid to admit that ConTeXt notes are increasily
problematic for
> me. I don’t think this is special to me and I hope we can
discuss the
> general issue.
>
> Bottom notes are somewhat tricky in ConTeXt. The user
expects that these
> notes (either footnotes, or linenotes) aren’t moved to the
next page. I
> mean, no reader expects to find a full footnote in the next
page from
> the one that calls it. (At least, I have never seen that in
any book
> read or paged through.)
>
> There may be good reasons for that, but ConTeXt doesn’t
enable this by
> default. Both options "split=verystrict" and "scope=text"
have to be
> used in "\setupnote".
>
> This translated in wrong space before notes when paragraph
form was
> used. I was very interested to use these (line)notes for
critical
> editions, but sometimes the text run into the notes. I’m
afraid that
> left linenotes extremely problematic to be used.
>
> With the arrival of LMTX, space before footnotes is more
problematic
> than before. No paragraph notes, see the attached sample
(wrong-6.png).
> In other cases, ConTeXt seems to ignore totally that the
page bottom
> contains footnotes.
>
> I cannot provide minimal samples. Consider that if it were
so easy to
> reproduce, problably the issue would have been gone long ago.
>
> Even when one avoids the problematic bottom partition (which
I did in
> that case by removing the "before" option from
"\setupnote[footnote]"),
> there is clearly an issue with the footnote having its space
before
> remaining blank from the body text (wrong-2.png).
>
> My first question is why the bottom notes have problems to
preserve the
> space before them (and simultaneously remain in the same
page where they
> come from). This applies also for paragraph notes.
>
> My second question is what can be improved to achieve what
may be
> considered as a basic typographic feature.
>
Re: [NTG-context] body text invades space for notes
Hi Pablo,
Thank you for the help!
I’m not using lists on that page … what I do use is a figure with
location=left, which is probably the culprit, as it ends up pretty close to
the footnote.
Is there any interest in fixing this longstanding bug? It’s the only
feature that’s just consistently broken for me …
Best, Phil
Am Di., 25. Feb. 2020 um 22:15 Uhr schrieb Pablo Rodriguez :
> On 2/18/20 11:17 AM, Philipp A. wrote:
> > For me it’s even worse (in mkiv), a paragraph of body text completely
> > overlaps my footnote.
> >
> > Where are the bottom notes placed? In the footer? Or how does it work?
> > How to debug it?
>
> Hi Philipp,
>
> I’m afraid that this misbehaviour is caused by the use of lists in the
> same page.
>
> Even not using lists, the space before seems not to be honored when
> using \setupnote[footnote].
>
> Note handling seems to have been improved in both LMTX and MkIV. A
> side-effect of this new handling is the random clash between body and
> notes texts when using lists in the same page.
>
> BTW, foonotes cannot be placed in the footer.
>
> \showframe\showgrid
> \setuppapersize[A9]
> \starttext
> \dorecurse{3}{%
> text\footnote{note}\\}
> \stoptext
>
> Sorry, but I’m afraid that I don’t know any way of debugging it.
>
> Pablo
>
>
> > Am Sa., 14. Dez. 2019 um 19:41 Uhr schrieb Pablo Rodriguez:
> >
> > Dear list,
> >
> > I’m afraid to admit that ConTeXt notes are increasily problematic for
> > me. I don’t think this is special to me and I hope we can discuss the
> > general issue.
> >
> > Bottom notes are somewhat tricky in ConTeXt. The user expects that
> these
> > notes (either footnotes, or linenotes) aren’t moved to the next
> page. I
> > mean, no reader expects to find a full footnote in the next page from
> > the one that calls it. (At least, I have never seen that in any book
> > read or paged through.)
> >
> > There may be good reasons for that, but ConTeXt doesn’t enable this
> by
> > default. Both options "split=verystrict" and "scope=text" have to be
> > used in "\setupnote".
> >
> > This translated in wrong space before notes when paragraph form was
> > used. I was very interested to use these (line)notes for critical
> > editions, but sometimes the text run into the notes. I’m afraid that
> > left linenotes extremely problematic to be used.
> >
> > With the arrival of LMTX, space before footnotes is more problematic
> > than before. No paragraph notes, see the attached sample
> (wrong-6.png).
> > In other cases, ConTeXt seems to ignore totally that the page bottom
> > contains footnotes.
> >
> > I cannot provide minimal samples. Consider that if it were so easy to
> > reproduce, problably the issue would have been gone long ago.
> >
> > Even when one avoids the problematic bottom partition (which I did in
> > that case by removing the "before" option from
> "\setupnote[footnote]"),
> > there is clearly an issue with the footnote having its space before
> > remaining blank from the body text (wrong-2.png).
> >
> > My first question is why the bottom notes have problems to preserve
> the
> > space before them (and simultaneously remain in the same page where
> they
> > come from). This applies also for paragraph notes.
> >
> > My second question is what can be improved to achieve what may be
> > considered as a basic typographic feature.
> >
> > Sorry for not providing more than output samples. Bear with me. I may
> > not be an expert user, but I think I’m a frequent ConTeXt user. And I
> > don’t think it is totally wrong to consider this a basic feature that
> > needs to be improved.
> >
> > Many thanks for your help in advance,
> >
> > Pablo
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.ousia.tk
>
> ___
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___
>
___
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___
Re: [NTG-context] body text invades space for notes
On 2/18/20 11:17 AM, Philipp A. wrote:
> For me it’s even worse (in mkiv), a paragraph of body text completely
> overlaps my footnote.
>
> Where are the bottom notes placed? In the footer? Or how does it work?
> How to debug it?
Hi Philipp,
I’m afraid that this misbehaviour is caused by the use of lists in the
same page.
Even not using lists, the space before seems not to be honored when
using \setupnote[footnote].
Note handling seems to have been improved in both LMTX and MkIV. A
side-effect of this new handling is the random clash between body and
notes texts when using lists in the same page.
BTW, foonotes cannot be placed in the footer.
\showframe\showgrid
\setuppapersize[A9]
\starttext
\dorecurse{3}{%
text\footnote{note}\\}
\stoptext
Sorry, but I’m afraid that I don’t know any way of debugging it.
Pablo
> Am Sa., 14. Dez. 2019 um 19:41 Uhr schrieb Pablo Rodriguez:
>
> Dear list,
>
> I’m afraid to admit that ConTeXt notes are increasily problematic for
> me. I don’t think this is special to me and I hope we can discuss the
> general issue.
>
> Bottom notes are somewhat tricky in ConTeXt. The user expects that these
> notes (either footnotes, or linenotes) aren’t moved to the next page. I
> mean, no reader expects to find a full footnote in the next page from
> the one that calls it. (At least, I have never seen that in any book
> read or paged through.)
>
> There may be good reasons for that, but ConTeXt doesn’t enable this by
> default. Both options "split=verystrict" and "scope=text" have to be
> used in "\setupnote".
>
> This translated in wrong space before notes when paragraph form was
> used. I was very interested to use these (line)notes for critical
> editions, but sometimes the text run into the notes. I’m afraid that
> left linenotes extremely problematic to be used.
>
> With the arrival of LMTX, space before footnotes is more problematic
> than before. No paragraph notes, see the attached sample (wrong-6.png).
> In other cases, ConTeXt seems to ignore totally that the page bottom
> contains footnotes.
>
> I cannot provide minimal samples. Consider that if it were so easy to
> reproduce, problably the issue would have been gone long ago.
>
> Even when one avoids the problematic bottom partition (which I did in
> that case by removing the "before" option from "\setupnote[footnote]"),
> there is clearly an issue with the footnote having its space before
> remaining blank from the body text (wrong-2.png).
>
> My first question is why the bottom notes have problems to preserve the
> space before them (and simultaneously remain in the same page where they
> come from). This applies also for paragraph notes.
>
> My second question is what can be improved to achieve what may be
> considered as a basic typographic feature.
>
> Sorry for not providing more than output samples. Bear with me. I may
> not be an expert user, but I think I’m a frequent ConTeXt user. And I
> don’t think it is totally wrong to consider this a basic feature that
> needs to be improved.
>
> Many thanks for your help in advance,
>
> Pablo
--
http://www.ousia.tk
___
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___
Re: [NTG-context] body text invades space for notes
For me it’s even worse (in mkiv), a paragraph of body text completely overlaps my footnote. Where are the bottom notes placed? In the footer? Or how does it work? How to debug it? Am Sa., 14. Dez. 2019 um 19:41 Uhr schrieb Pablo Rodriguez : > Dear list, > > I’m afraid to admit that ConTeXt notes are increasily problematic for > me. I don’t think this is special to me and I hope we can discuss the > general issue. > > Bottom notes are somewhat tricky in ConTeXt. The user expects that these > notes (either footnotes, or linenotes) aren’t moved to the next page. I > mean, no reader expects to find a full footnote in the next page from > the one that calls it. (At least, I have never seen that in any book > read or paged through.) > > There may be good reasons for that, but ConTeXt doesn’t enable this by > default. Both options "split=verystrict" and "scope=text" have to be > used in "\setupnote". > > This translated in wrong space before notes when paragraph form was > used. I was very interested to use these (line)notes for critical > editions, but sometimes the text run into the notes. I’m afraid that > left linenotes extremely problematic to be used. > > With the arrival of LMTX, space before footnotes is more problematic > than before. No paragraph notes, see the attached sample (wrong-6.png). > In other cases, ConTeXt seems to ignore totally that the page bottom > contains footnotes. > > I cannot provide minimal samples. Consider that if it were so easy to > reproduce, problably the issue would have been gone long ago. > > Even when one avoids the problematic bottom partition (which I did in > that case by removing the "before" option from "\setupnote[footnote]"), > there is clearly an issue with the footnote having its space before > remaining blank from the body text (wrong-2.png). > > My first question is why the bottom notes have problems to preserve the > space before them (and simultaneously remain in the same page where they > come from). This applies also for paragraph notes. > > My second question is what can be improved to achieve what may be > considered as a basic typographic feature. > > Sorry for not providing more than output samples. Bear with me. I may > not be an expert user, but I think I’m a frequent ConTeXt user. And I > don’t think it is totally wrong to consider this a basic feature that > needs to be improved. > > Many thanks for your help in advance, > > Pablo > -- > http://www.ousia.tk > > > ___ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to > the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / > http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net > archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > > ___ > ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
[NTG-context] body text invades space for notes
Dear list, I’m afraid to admit that ConTeXt notes are increasily problematic for me. I don’t think this is special to me and I hope we can discuss the general issue. Bottom notes are somewhat tricky in ConTeXt. The user expects that these notes (either footnotes, or linenotes) aren’t moved to the next page. I mean, no reader expects to find a full footnote in the next page from the one that calls it. (At least, I have never seen that in any book read or paged through.) There may be good reasons for that, but ConTeXt doesn’t enable this by default. Both options "split=verystrict" and "scope=text" have to be used in "\setupnote". This translated in wrong space before notes when paragraph form was used. I was very interested to use these (line)notes for critical editions, but sometimes the text run into the notes. I’m afraid that left linenotes extremely problematic to be used. With the arrival of LMTX, space before footnotes is more problematic than before. No paragraph notes, see the attached sample (wrong-6.png). In other cases, ConTeXt seems to ignore totally that the page bottom contains footnotes. I cannot provide minimal samples. Consider that if it were so easy to reproduce, problably the issue would have been gone long ago. Even when one avoids the problematic bottom partition (which I did in that case by removing the "before" option from "\setupnote[footnote]"), there is clearly an issue with the footnote having its space before remaining blank from the body text (wrong-2.png). My first question is why the bottom notes have problems to preserve the space before them (and simultaneously remain in the same page where they come from). This applies also for paragraph notes. My second question is what can be improved to achieve what may be considered as a basic typographic feature. Sorry for not providing more than output samples. Bear with me. I may not be an expert user, but I think I’m a frequent ConTeXt user. And I don’t think it is totally wrong to consider this a basic feature that needs to be improved. Many thanks for your help in advance, Pablo -- http://www.ousia.tk ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
