Re: [Numpy-discussion] Template system
Charles R Harris wrote: OK, so far I've knocked it down to 35KB by removing stuff I'm not interested in. It is now smaller than Cog, and 7x larger than the file we now use to do the same job. I'm pretty sure I can make it leaner than that. It remains extensible. Can you put a tarball up somewhere? Django generally requires environment variables to configure itself. There is a way to configure these from code, but it looks like that pulls in django.conf. This is my primary source of discomfort with using Django templates. My experience with using Django components outside of a Django web app has been frustrating. The more modifications we make, the more we have to maintain. And if any of it causes problems for someone trying to build numpy, that's more questions we need to answer. I want to answer numpy questions, not Django questions. I would be much, much more comfortable with an implementation that can simply be dropped in without modification. -- Robert Kern I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. -- Umberto Eco ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Template system
On Jan 12, 2008 4:12 AM, Robert Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Charles R Harris wrote: OK, so far I've knocked it down to 35KB by removing stuff I'm not interested in. It is now smaller than Cog, and 7x larger than the file we now use to do the same job. I'm pretty sure I can make it leaner than that. It remains extensible. Can you put a tarball up somewhere? Django generally requires environment variables to configure itself. There is a way to configure these from code, but it looks like that pulls in django.conf. This is my primary source of discomfort Yeah, I had that problem running Django straight from the box. Pain.In.The.Ass. However, the easiest way to just get the template subsystem out is to delete a bunch of files and rename global_settings to settings. Then I also changed the name django to something else and put some imports in the __init__, but you don't have to do that. Easily done with a script. with using Django templates. My experience with using Django components outside of a Django web app has been frustrating. The more modifications we make, the more we have to maintain. And if any of it causes problems for someone trying to build numpy, that's more questions we need to answer. I want to answer numpy questions, not Django questions. I would be much, much more comfortable with an implementation that can simply be dropped in without modification. Well, now I'm all hot to see how small I can make it while keeping the ability to add bits back in. You've got me digging through the code with the usual results. The configuration file is gone entirely, I'm cleaning up other bits, and getting rid of automatic html escaping, caching, and other such serving nonsense because, well, I don't need it. Chuck ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
[Numpy-discussion] Template system
Hi All, I'm thinking of adding the template system I pulled out of Django to Numpy to use in place of the current code generator. Its advantages are documentation, flexibility, and maintainance. The code totals about 470 KB, comes with a BSD license, and is compatible with Python = 2.3. I want to bring this up on the list because I'm sure there will be objections along the lines of why do we need that? So I want to see how strenuous the objections are. Chuck ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Template system
Charles R Harris wrote: Hi All, I'm thinking of adding the template system I pulled out of Django to Numpy to use in place of the current code generator. Its advantages are documentation, flexibility, and maintainance. The code totals about 470 KB, comes with a BSD license, and is compatible with Python = 2.3. I want to bring this up on the list because I'm sure there will be objections along the lines of why do we need that? So I want to see how strenuous the objections are. It's too big. If you want a better template system than the current one, there are a few which are contained in a single file. That would be fine to include, but I object strongly to incorporating Jinja. -- Robert Kern I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. -- Umberto Eco ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Template system
On Jan 11, 2008 2:58 PM, Robert Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Charles R Harris wrote: Hi All, I'm thinking of adding the template system I pulled out of Django to Numpy to use in place of the current code generator. Its advantages are documentation, flexibility, and maintainance. The code totals about 470 KB, comes with a BSD license, and is compatible with Python = 2.3. I want to bring this up on the list because I'm sure there will be objections along the lines of why do we need that? So I want to see how strenuous the objections are. It's too big. If you want a better template system than the current one, there are a few which are contained in a single file. That would be fine to include, but I object strongly to incorporating Jinja. Ummm, harsh. I'm certainly open to suggestions. I took a closer look at the django system and reduced it to 308K, 70K zipped. There was a lot of space taken up by the .svn directories inherited from django and *.pyc files. I could probably knock another 50K off by removing some functionality we don't really need: html, http, dates, time, and maybe template inheritance. Just for comparison, here are some things that are in a fresh checkout of numpy, including the .svn files Numpy 23 MB f2py 5.4 MB doc/swig 1.5 MB code_generators 192K So adding the template subsystem would increase the repository size by about 1.4%. Do you have any objections in addition to the size? Chuck ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Template system
Charles R Harris wrote: On Jan 11, 2008 2:58 PM, Robert Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Charles R Harris wrote: Hi All, I'm thinking of adding the template system I pulled out of Django to Numpy to use in place of the current code generator. Its advantages are documentation, flexibility, and maintainance. The code totals about 470 KB, comes with a BSD license, and is compatible with Python = 2.3. I want to bring this up on the list because I'm sure there will be objections along the lines of why do we need that? So I want to see how strenuous the objections are. It's too big. If you want a better template system than the current one, there are a few which are contained in a single file. That would be fine to include, but I object strongly to incorporating Jinja. Ummm, harsh. I'm certainly open to suggestions. I took a closer look at the django system and reduced it to 308K, 70K zipped. There was a lot of space taken up by the .svn directories inherited from django and *.pyc files. I could probably knock another 50K off by removing some functionality we don't really need: html, http, dates, time, and maybe template inheritance. Just for comparison, here are some things that are in a fresh checkout of numpy, including the .svn files Numpy 23 MB f2py 5.4 MB doc/swig 1.5 MB code_generators 192K So adding the template subsystem would increase the repository size by about 1.4%. Do you have any objections in addition to the size? Yes. I'm not convinced that we need anything better than we have now. Show me how using Jinja templates makes the current code better. Check the one-file templating modules (like YAPTU[1] or Cog[2]) out there to see if those are sufficient. Jinja and its kin (Mako, Cheetah, etc.) are intended for a very different use case, and their design, implementation, and footprint are optimized for that. [1] http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/52305 [2] http://nedbatchelder.com/code/cog/ -- Robert Kern I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. -- Umberto Eco ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Template system
OK, so far I've knocked it down to 35KB by removing stuff I'm not interested in. It is now smaller than Cog, and 7x larger than the file we now use to do the same job. I'm pretty sure I can make it leaner than that. It remains extensible. On Jan 11, 2008 7:02 PM, Robert Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Charles R Harris wrote: On Jan 11, 2008 2:58 PM, Robert Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Charles R Harris wrote: Hi All, I'm thinking of adding the template system I pulled out of Django to Numpy to use in place of the current code generator. Its advantages are documentation, flexibility, and maintainance. The code totals about 470 KB, comes with a BSD license, and is compatible with Python = 2.3. I want to bring this up on the list because I'm sure there will be objections along the lines of why do we need that? So I want to see how strenuous the objections are. It's too big. If you want a better template system than the current one, there are a few which are contained in a single file. That would be fine to include, but I object strongly to incorporating Jinja. Ummm, harsh. I'm certainly open to suggestions. I took a closer look at the django system and reduced it to 308K, 70K zipped. There was a lot of space taken up by the .svn directories inherited from django and *.pyc files. I could probably knock another 50K off by removing some functionality we don't really need: html, http, dates, time, and maybe template inheritance. Just for comparison, here are some things that are in a fresh checkout of numpy, including the .svn files Numpy 23 MB f2py 5.4 MB doc/swig 1.5 MB code_generators 192K So adding the template subsystem would increase the repository size by about 1.4%. Do you have any objections in addition to the size? Yes. I'm not convinced that we need anything better than we have now. Show me how using Jinja templates makes the current code better. Check the one-file templating modules (like YAPTU[1] or Cog[2]) out there to see if those are sufficient. Jinja and its kin (Mako, Cheetah, etc.) are intended for a very different use case, and their design, implementation, and footprint are optimized for that. [1] http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/52305 [2] http://nedbatchelder.com/code/cog/ -- Robert Kern I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. -- Umberto Eco ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Template system
Charles R Harris wrote: OK, so far I've knocked it down to 35KB by removing stuff I'm not interested in. It is now smaller than Cog, and 7x larger than the file we now use to do the same job. I'm pretty sure I can make it leaner than that. It remains extensible. One good way to see whereas it is a worthwhile addition would be to give an example of one source file using this new template. cheers, David ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
