RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
It's worth noting that mid 20th Century birders knew Loggerhead Shrike as a regular fall vagrant on LI and coastal southern New England, perhaps comparable in frequency to Western Kingbird. These fall Loggerheads mostly occurred much earlier than Northern Shrike would be expected, from late August through October, but there are many critically identified records from November and December--as attested by Kevin's Thanksgiving specimen from Mecox. Because these vagrants vanished in step with the nearest, northeastern breeding populations, it is likely that many derived from those sources. Even so, we actually know very little about the precise origins of our coastal vagrants--even the frequent ones like Western Kingbird and Lark Sparrow. Shai Mitra Bay Shore From: Kevin J. McGowan [k...@cornell.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 11:57 AM To: Grover, Bob; Hugh McGuinness; Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike Sure, and the correct ID has been found because the specimen still existed to be examined. Check out http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Wilson/v065n01/p0046-p0047.pdf for two such stories from the same flock of birds. But, these two shrike species are so different when put side-by-side that I don’t think there is a single specimen of any doubt in the Cornell collection. Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D. Instructor Home Study Course in Bird Biology Cornell Lab of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Road Ithaca, NY 14850 hst...@cornell.edu 607-254-2452 From: Grover, Bob [mailto:rgro...@gpinet.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 11:34 AM To: Kevin J. McGowan; Hugh McGuinness; Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike I know I risk excoriation here, but has a museum study skin never been misidentified? Bob Grover From: bounce-7483823-3714...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-7483823-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Kevin J. McGowan Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 10:33 AM To: Hugh McGuinness; Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike Funny, but I was going to ask about this shrike yesterday to see if anyone had taken a long hard look at it. I saw another photo and I just can’t make it into a Northern Shrike. I have put some photos of a specimen from the Cornell Museum of Vertebrates that might be of interest at http://picasaweb.google.com/KevinJ.McGowan/SpecimenExamples It is a hatch year female taken in Mecox, Suffolk Co. on 26 November 1946. It shows neat light barring across the chest, a gray unbarred back, and a pale patch at the base of the bill. Several individuals in the collection looked similar. The Jones Beach individual looks very similar to my eyes, except that it doesn’t have the retained juvenal wing coverts, but that molt can be variable among individuals. Shai’s real Northern Shrike photo shows very substantial contrast in shape, bill shape, mask size, coloring, and markings. I was not able to find a single specimen of Northern Shrike in the Cornell collection that even remotely looked odd or like the Jones Beach bird. Not to say that the collection encompasses the entire variation, but they all looked pretty much alike. Interesting bird. Here’s hoping it really is a young Loggerhead; the population could use it! Keivn Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D. Instructor Home Study Course in Bird Biology Cornell Lab of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Road Ithaca, NY 14850 hst...@cornell.edu 607-254-2452 Think green before you print this email. -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html 3) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
Sure, and the correct ID has been found because the specimen still existed to be examined. Check out http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Wilson/v065n01/p0046-p0047.pdf for two such stories from the same flock of birds. But, these two shrike species are so different when put side-by-side that I don't think there is a single specimen of any doubt in the Cornell collection. Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D. Instructor Home Study Course in Bird Biology Cornell Lab of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Road Ithaca, NY 14850 hst...@cornell.edu 607-254-2452 From: Grover, Bob [mailto:rgro...@gpinet.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 11:34 AM To: Kevin J. McGowan; Hugh McGuinness; Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike I know I risk excoriation here, but has a museum study skin never been misidentified? Bob Grover From: bounce-7483823-3714...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-7483823-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Kevin J. McGowan Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 10:33 AM To: Hugh McGuinness; Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike Funny, but I was going to ask about this shrike yesterday to see if anyone had taken a long hard look at it. I saw another photo and I just can't make it into a Northern Shrike. I have put some photos of a specimen from the Cornell Museum of Vertebrates that might be of interest at http://picasaweb.google.com/KevinJ.McGowan/SpecimenExamples It is a hatch year female taken in Mecox, Suffolk Co. on 26 November 1946. It shows neat light barring across the chest, a gray unbarred back, and a pale patch at the base of the bill. Several individuals in the collection looked similar. The Jones Beach individual looks very similar to my eyes, except that it doesn't have the retained juvenal wing coverts, but that molt can be variable among individuals. Shai's real Northern Shrike photo shows very substantial contrast in shape, bill shape, mask size, coloring, and markings. I was not able to find a single specimen of Northern Shrike in the Cornell collection that even remotely looked odd or like the Jones Beach bird. Not to say that the collection encompasses the entire variation, but they all looked pretty much alike. Interesting bird. Here's hoping it really is a young Loggerhead; the population could use it! Keivn Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D. Instructor Home Study Course in Bird Biology Cornell Lab of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Road Ithaca, NY 14850 hst...@cornell.edu 607-254-2452 From: bounce-7483490-3714...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-7483490-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Hugh McGuinness Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:43 AM To: Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike Just to add some other images, here are some photos of Loggerhead Shrike photo showing vermiculations http://www.beachhunter.net/blog/2008/04/wherefore-art-thou-loggerhead.html http://sdakotabirds.com/species/loggerhead_shrike_info.htm And here is Kevin McGowan's pretty excellent review of the two species using specimens. http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/loggerhd.htm Hugh On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Shaibal Mitra mailto:shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu>> wrote: I forgot to include links to photos. Here are a few of my own, with a couple of Northern Shrike shots for comparison: http://picasaweb.google.com/tixbirdz/LongIslandMiscellany2010#<http://picasaweb.google.com/tixbirdz/LongIslandMiscellany2010> Here are some from John Gluth: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgluth_brb/sets/72157625379326695/with/5212944549/ From: bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu<mailto:bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu> [bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu<mailto:bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu>] On Behalf Of Shaibal Mitra [shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu<mailto:shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu>] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:16 AM To: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu<mailto:NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu>) Subject: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike A shrike present at Jones Beach West End, Nassau County, LI has been identified by many as a Northern Shrike, but a considerable amount of back-channel discussion has questioned whether it might actually be a Loggerhead. When I finally saw this bird well this past weekend I was already aware of the debates surrounding its identity, so I made an effort to evaluate the various characters that have been proposed in support of each species. As might be suspected multiple features have been proposed to support each view, so the question is how to evaluate the relative reliability of each character. To me, the bird appeared relatively small and quick (vs. the large and lanky impression usually imparted by Northern Shrike), with a r
RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
I know I risk excoriation here, but has a museum study skin never been misidentified? Bob Grover From: bounce-7483823-3714...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-7483823-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Kevin J. McGowan Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 10:33 AM To: Hugh McGuinness; Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike Funny, but I was going to ask about this shrike yesterday to see if anyone had taken a long hard look at it. I saw another photo and I just can't make it into a Northern Shrike. I have put some photos of a specimen from the Cornell Museum of Vertebrates that might be of interest at http://picasaweb.google.com/KevinJ.McGowan/SpecimenExamples It is a hatch year female taken in Mecox, Suffolk Co. on 26 November 1946. It shows neat light barring across the chest, a gray unbarred back, and a pale patch at the base of the bill. Several individuals in the collection looked similar. The Jones Beach individual looks very similar to my eyes, except that it doesn't have the retained juvenal wing coverts, but that molt can be variable among individuals. Shai's real Northern Shrike photo shows very substantial contrast in shape, bill shape, mask size, coloring, and markings. I was not able to find a single specimen of Northern Shrike in the Cornell collection that even remotely looked odd or like the Jones Beach bird. Not to say that the collection encompasses the entire variation, but they all looked pretty much alike. Interesting bird. Here's hoping it really is a young Loggerhead; the population could use it! Keivn Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D. Instructor Home Study Course in Bird Biology Cornell Lab of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Road Ithaca, NY 14850 hst...@cornell.edu 607-254-2452 From: bounce-7483490-3714...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-7483490-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Hugh McGuinness Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:43 AM To: Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike Just to add some other images, here are some photos of Loggerhead Shrike photo showing vermiculations http://www.beachhunter.net/blog/2008/04/wherefore-art-thou-loggerhead.html http://sdakotabirds.com/species/loggerhead_shrike_info.htm And here is Kevin McGowan's pretty excellent review of the two species using specimens. http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/loggerhd.htm Hugh On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Shaibal Mitra mailto:shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu>> wrote: I forgot to include links to photos. Here are a few of my own, with a couple of Northern Shrike shots for comparison: http://picasaweb.google.com/tixbirdz/LongIslandMiscellany2010#<http://picasaweb.google.com/tixbirdz/LongIslandMiscellany2010> Here are some from John Gluth: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgluth_brb/sets/72157625379326695/with/5212944549/ From: bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu<mailto:bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu> [bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu<mailto:bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu>] On Behalf Of Shaibal Mitra [shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu<mailto:shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu>] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:16 AM To: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu<mailto:NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu>) Subject: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike A shrike present at Jones Beach West End, Nassau County, LI has been identified by many as a Northern Shrike, but a considerable amount of back-channel discussion has questioned whether it might actually be a Loggerhead. When I finally saw this bird well this past weekend I was already aware of the debates surrounding its identity, so I made an effort to evaluate the various characters that have been proposed in support of each species. As might be suspected multiple features have been proposed to support each view, so the question is how to evaluate the relative reliability of each character. To me, the bird appeared relatively small and quick (vs. the large and lanky impression usually imparted by Northern Shrike), with a relatively large head, rounded crown, and short bill--all consistent with Loggerhead Shrike. Also consistent with Loggerhead Shrike was the relatively dark gray tone to its back. Features more consistent with Northern Shrike include: extensively pale base to lower mandible, heavily hooked upper mandible, the shape of the black mask behind the eye, obvious gray barring on the breast in the absence of any barring on the back. The appearance of this bird's mask in the area of the eye itself and in front of the eye seems equivocal and has been argued in both directions, but I find it easier to find photos of Loggerheads that match its facial appearance than photos of Northerns that do so. Taking these features individually, I think that individual variation could accou
Re: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
i think this one is clearly a northern. i lean pretty strongly towards thinking the jones beach one is a loggerhead, though. Richard R. Veit Professor Biology Department CSI/CUNY 2800 Victory Boulevard Staten Island, NY 10314 718-982-3853 Fax 718-982-3852 From: Angus Wilson To: NYSBIRDS-L Cc: Shaibal Mitra ; "Burke, Tom" ; Hugh McGuinness ; Christopher Wood ; Andy Guthrie ; Kevin McGowan Sent: Wed, December 1, 2010 10:36:52 AM Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike It seems appropriate to throw one more bird into the discussion mix; a shrike that I found on 31 Oct 2010 in the Theodore Roosevelt County Park in Montauk (Suffolk Co.), a few hundred yards from a Brewer's Blackbird. If I recall correctly, this was shortly after the discovery of the Jones Beach shrike, and perhaps the only other shrike seen on Long Island during the fall/winter season (so far). Unfortunately the Montauk bird did not linger beyond the one day. It also gave the impression of being small and was harassed relentlessly by a pair of Northern Mockingbirds, making photography difficult. I still have to sit down and look carefully at it relative to the Northern/Loggerhead discussion, but thought other independent opinions would be helpful. Here is a link to the best photos I obtained. http://picasaweb.google.com/oceanwanderers/SouthForkLongIslandNY?authkey=Gv1sRgCOa3ua3EuLjJ3wE# -- Angus Wilson New York City & The Springs, NY, USA http://birdingtotheend.blogspot.com/ -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html 3) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
Hello, I agree Angus' bird is a good Northern, but the bird that Shai posted is interesting!! I leaned slightly towards a small Northern with the Jones beach bird, but admit there's some conflicting characteristics present. Color of bill, lack of barring on the back, look of mask (this trait is more debatable than others), barring on chest, time of year (at least to some degree) point towards Northern, but the overall size and gist point more towards Loggerhead.as conflicting as that might sound. It's a small bird that looks consistently darker gray (consistent throughout each photo) and just doesn't really look right for Northern to me. cheers, Matt mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html 3) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
My own shots of the Shrike, showing some detail: http://www.flickr.com/photos/phil-jeffrey/5198713710/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/phil-jeffrey/5198713688/ Phil Jeffrey -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html 3) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
Angus, To me your bird looks like a Northern. The mask is barely deeper than the eye and trails down toward the nape. The color of the head is pale, not dark like most Loggerheads (very noticeable in the drawers). And the bill appears longer and straighter. Cheers, Kevin Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D. Instructor Home Study Course in Bird Biology Cornell Lab of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Road Ithaca, NY 14850 hst...@cornell.edu 607-254-2452 From: Angus Wilson [mailto:oceanwander...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 10:37 AM To: NYSBIRDS-L Cc: Shaibal Mitra; Burke, Tom; Hugh McGuinness; Christopher Wood; Andy Guthrie; Kevin J. McGowan Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike It seems appropriate to throw one more bird into the discussion mix; a shrike that I found on 31 Oct 2010 in the Theodore Roosevelt County Park in Montauk (Suffolk Co.), a few hundred yards from a Brewer's Blackbird. If I recall correctly, this was shortly after the discovery of the Jones Beach shrike, and perhaps the only other shrike seen on Long Island during the fall/winter season (so far). Unfortunately the Montauk bird did not linger beyond the one day. It also gave the impression of being small and was harassed relentlessly by a pair of Northern Mockingbirds, making photography difficult. I still have to sit down and look carefully at it relative to the Northern/Loggerhead discussion, but thought other independent opinions would be helpful. Here is a link to the best photos I obtained. http://picasaweb.google.com/oceanwanderers/SouthForkLongIslandNY?authkey=Gv1sRgCOa3ua3EuLjJ3wE#<http://picasaweb.google.com/oceanwanderers/SouthForkLongIslandNY?authkey=Gv1sRgCOa3ua3EuLjJ3wE> -- Angus Wilson New York City & The Springs, NY, USA http://birdingtotheend.blogspot.com/ -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html 3) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
It seems appropriate to throw one more bird into the discussion mix; a shrike that I found on 31 Oct 2010 in the Theodore Roosevelt County Park in Montauk (Suffolk Co.), a few hundred yards from a Brewer's Blackbird. If I recall correctly, this was shortly after the discovery of the Jones Beach shrike, and perhaps the only other shrike seen on Long Island during the fall/winter season (so far). Unfortunately the Montauk bird did not linger beyond the one day. It also gave the impression of being small and was harassed relentlessly by a pair of Northern Mockingbirds, making photography difficult. I still have to sit down and look carefully at it relative to the Northern/Loggerhead discussion, but thought other independent opinions would be helpful. Here is a link to the best photos I obtained. http://picasaweb.google.com/oceanwanderers/SouthForkLongIslandNY?authkey=Gv1sRgCOa3ua3EuLjJ3wE# -- Angus Wilson New York City & The Springs, NY, USA http://birdingtotheend.blogspot.com/ -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html 3) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
Funny, but I was going to ask about this shrike yesterday to see if anyone had taken a long hard look at it. I saw another photo and I just can't make it into a Northern Shrike. I have put some photos of a specimen from the Cornell Museum of Vertebrates that might be of interest at http://picasaweb.google.com/KevinJ.McGowan/SpecimenExamples It is a hatch year female taken in Mecox, Suffolk Co. on 26 November 1946. It shows neat light barring across the chest, a gray unbarred back, and a pale patch at the base of the bill. Several individuals in the collection looked similar. The Jones Beach individual looks very similar to my eyes, except that it doesn't have the retained juvenal wing coverts, but that molt can be variable among individuals. Shai's real Northern Shrike photo shows very substantial contrast in shape, bill shape, mask size, coloring, and markings. I was not able to find a single specimen of Northern Shrike in the Cornell collection that even remotely looked odd or like the Jones Beach bird. Not to say that the collection encompasses the entire variation, but they all looked pretty much alike. Interesting bird. Here's hoping it really is a young Loggerhead; the population could use it! Keivn Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D. Instructor Home Study Course in Bird Biology Cornell Lab of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Road Ithaca, NY 14850 hst...@cornell.edu 607-254-2452 From: bounce-7483490-3714...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-7483490-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Hugh McGuinness Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:43 AM To: Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike Just to add some other images, here are some photos of Loggerhead Shrike photo showing vermiculations http://www.beachhunter.net/blog/2008/04/wherefore-art-thou-loggerhead.html http://sdakotabirds.com/species/loggerhead_shrike_info.htm And here is Kevin McGowan's pretty excellent review of the two species using specimens. http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/loggerhd.htm Hugh On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Shaibal Mitra mailto:shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu>> wrote: I forgot to include links to photos. Here are a few of my own, with a couple of Northern Shrike shots for comparison: http://picasaweb.google.com/tixbirdz/LongIslandMiscellany2010#<http://picasaweb.google.com/tixbirdz/LongIslandMiscellany2010> Here are some from John Gluth: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgluth_brb/sets/72157625379326695/with/5212944549/ From: bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu<mailto:bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu> [bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu<mailto:bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu>] On Behalf Of Shaibal Mitra [shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu<mailto:shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu>] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:16 AM To: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu<mailto:NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu>) Subject: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike A shrike present at Jones Beach West End, Nassau County, LI has been identified by many as a Northern Shrike, but a considerable amount of back-channel discussion has questioned whether it might actually be a Loggerhead. When I finally saw this bird well this past weekend I was already aware of the debates surrounding its identity, so I made an effort to evaluate the various characters that have been proposed in support of each species. As might be suspected multiple features have been proposed to support each view, so the question is how to evaluate the relative reliability of each character. To me, the bird appeared relatively small and quick (vs. the large and lanky impression usually imparted by Northern Shrike), with a relatively large head, rounded crown, and short bill--all consistent with Loggerhead Shrike. Also consistent with Loggerhead Shrike was the relatively dark gray tone to its back. Features more consistent with Northern Shrike include: extensively pale base to lower mandible, heavily hooked upper mandible, the shape of the black mask behind the eye, obvious gray barring on the breast in the absence of any barring on the back. The appearance of this bird's mask in the area of the eye itself and in front of the eye seems equivocal and has been argued in both directions, but I find it easier to find photos of Loggerheads that match its facial appearance than photos of Northerns that do so. Taking these features individually, I think that individual variation could account for many discrepancies either way. For instance, it seems plausible that some Northern Shrikes could have small bills and that some Loggerheads could have heavily hooked bills, etc. To me, the difficult questions are: 1. Could a Northern Shrike could look so small, quick, and large-headed? 2. Could an immature Loggerhead Shrike show a pale-based mandible and ventral barring in the absence o
Re: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
Just to add some other images, here are some photos of Loggerhead Shrike photo showing vermiculations http://www.beachhunter.net/blog/2008/04/wherefore-art-thou-loggerhead.html http://sdakotabirds.com/species/loggerhead_shrike_info.htm And here is Kevin McGowan's pretty excellent review of the two species using specimens. http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/loggerhd.htm Hugh On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Shaibal Mitra wrote: > I forgot to include links to photos. > > Here are a few of my own, with a couple of Northern Shrike shots for > comparison: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/tixbirdz/LongIslandMiscellany2010# > > Here are some from John Gluth: > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgluth_brb/sets/72157625379326695/with/5212944549/ > > > From: bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu [ > bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Shaibal Mitra [ > shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:16 AM > To: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) > Subject: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike > > A shrike present at Jones Beach West End, Nassau County, LI has been > identified by many as a Northern Shrike, but a considerable amount of > back-channel discussion has questioned whether it might actually be a > Loggerhead. > > When I finally saw this bird well this past weekend I was already aware of > the debates surrounding its identity, so I made an effort to evaluate the > various characters that have been proposed in support of each species. As > might be suspected multiple features have been proposed to support each > view, so the question is how to evaluate the relative reliability of each > character. > > To me, the bird appeared relatively small and quick (vs. the large and > lanky impression usually imparted by Northern Shrike), with a relatively > large head, rounded crown, and short bill--all consistent with Loggerhead > Shrike. Also consistent with Loggerhead Shrike was the relatively dark gray > tone to its back. > > Features more consistent with Northern Shrike include: extensively pale > base to lower mandible, heavily hooked upper mandible, the shape of the > black mask behind the eye, obvious gray barring on the breast in the absence > of any barring on the back. > > The appearance of this bird's mask in the area of the eye itself and in > front of the eye seems equivocal and has been argued in both directions, but > I find it easier to find photos of Loggerheads that match its facial > appearance than photos of Northerns that do so. > > Taking these features individually, I think that individual variation could > account for many discrepancies either way. For instance, it seems plausible > that some Northern Shrikes could have small bills and that some Loggerheads > could have heavily hooked bills, etc. > > To me, the difficult questions are: > > 1. Could a Northern Shrike could look so small, quick, and large-headed? > > 2. Could an immature Loggerhead Shrike show a pale-based mandible and > ventral barring in the absence of dorsal barring? > > 3. Is this bird's mask pattern possibly diagnostic, despite the conflicting > impressions of local observers? > > Any constructive answers to these questions would be greatly appreciated! > > Shai Mitra > Bay Shore > > Think green before you print this email. > > -- > > NYSbirds-L List Info: > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES > > ARCHIVES: > 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html > 2) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html > 3) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L > > Please submit your observations to eBird: > http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ > > -- > > > Think green before you print this email. > > -- > > NYSbirds-L List Info: > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES > > ARCHIVES: > 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html > 2) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html > 3) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L > > Please submit your observations to eBird: > http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ > > -- > > -- Hugh McGuinness The Ross School 18 Goodfriend Drive East Hampton, NY 11937 -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html 3) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
RE:[nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
I forgot to include links to photos. Here are a few of my own, with a couple of Northern Shrike shots for comparison: http://picasaweb.google.com/tixbirdz/LongIslandMiscellany2010# Here are some from John Gluth: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgluth_brb/sets/72157625379326695/with/5212944549/ From: bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu [bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Shaibal Mitra [shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:16 AM To: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike A shrike present at Jones Beach West End, Nassau County, LI has been identified by many as a Northern Shrike, but a considerable amount of back-channel discussion has questioned whether it might actually be a Loggerhead. When I finally saw this bird well this past weekend I was already aware of the debates surrounding its identity, so I made an effort to evaluate the various characters that have been proposed in support of each species. As might be suspected multiple features have been proposed to support each view, so the question is how to evaluate the relative reliability of each character. To me, the bird appeared relatively small and quick (vs. the large and lanky impression usually imparted by Northern Shrike), with a relatively large head, rounded crown, and short bill--all consistent with Loggerhead Shrike. Also consistent with Loggerhead Shrike was the relatively dark gray tone to its back. Features more consistent with Northern Shrike include: extensively pale base to lower mandible, heavily hooked upper mandible, the shape of the black mask behind the eye, obvious gray barring on the breast in the absence of any barring on the back. The appearance of this bird's mask in the area of the eye itself and in front of the eye seems equivocal and has been argued in both directions, but I find it easier to find photos of Loggerheads that match its facial appearance than photos of Northerns that do so. Taking these features individually, I think that individual variation could account for many discrepancies either way. For instance, it seems plausible that some Northern Shrikes could have small bills and that some Loggerheads could have heavily hooked bills, etc. To me, the difficult questions are: 1. Could a Northern Shrike could look so small, quick, and large-headed? 2. Could an immature Loggerhead Shrike show a pale-based mandible and ventral barring in the absence of dorsal barring? 3. Is this bird's mask pattern possibly diagnostic, despite the conflicting impressions of local observers? Any constructive answers to these questions would be greatly appreciated! Shai Mitra Bay Shore Think green before you print this email. -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html 3) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ -- Think green before you print this email. -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html 3) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
RE:[nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
I forgot to include links to photos. Here are a few of my own, with a couple of Northern Shrike shots for comparison: http://picasaweb.google.com/tixbirdz/LongIslandMiscellany2010# Here are some from John Gluth: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgluth_brb/sets/72157625379326695/with/5212944549/ From: bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu [bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Shaibal Mitra [shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:16 AM To: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike A shrike present at Jones Beach West End, Nassau County, LI has been identified by many as a Northern Shrike, but a considerable amount of back-channel discussion has questioned whether it might actually be a Loggerhead. When I finally saw this bird well this past weekend I was already aware of the debates surrounding its identity, so I made an effort to evaluate the various characters that have been proposed in support of each species. As might be suspected multiple features have been proposed to support each view, so the question is how to evaluate the relative reliability of each character. To me, the bird appeared relatively small and quick (vs. the large and lanky impression usually imparted by Northern Shrike), with a relatively large head, rounded crown, and short bill--all consistent with Loggerhead Shrike. Also consistent with Loggerhead Shrike was the relatively dark gray tone to its back. Features more consistent with Northern Shrike include: extensively pale base to lower mandible, heavily hooked upper mandible, the shape of the black mask behind the eye, obvious gray barring on the breast in the absence of any barring on the back. The appearance of this bird's mask in the area of the eye itself and in front of the eye seems equivocal and has been argued in both directions, but I find it easier to find photos of Loggerheads that match its facial appearance than photos of Northerns that do so. Taking these features individually, I think that individual variation could account for many discrepancies either way. For instance, it seems plausible that some Northern Shrikes could have small bills and that some Loggerheads could have heavily hooked bills, etc. To me, the difficult questions are: 1. Could a Northern Shrike could look so small, quick, and large-headed? 2. Could an immature Loggerhead Shrike show a pale-based mandible and ventral barring in the absence of dorsal barring? 3. Is this bird's mask pattern possibly diagnostic, despite the conflicting impressions of local observers? Any constructive answers to these questions would be greatly appreciated! Shai Mitra Bay Shore Think green before you print this email. -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html 3) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ -- Think green before you print this email. -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html 3) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
Funny, but I was going to ask about this shrike yesterday to see if anyone had taken a long hard look at it. I saw another photo and I just can't make it into a Northern Shrike. I have put some photos of a specimen from the Cornell Museum of Vertebrates that might be of interest at http://picasaweb.google.com/KevinJ.McGowan/SpecimenExamples It is a hatch year female taken in Mecox, Suffolk Co. on 26 November 1946. It shows neat light barring across the chest, a gray unbarred back, and a pale patch at the base of the bill. Several individuals in the collection looked similar. The Jones Beach individual looks very similar to my eyes, except that it doesn't have the retained juvenal wing coverts, but that molt can be variable among individuals. Shai's real Northern Shrike photo shows very substantial contrast in shape, bill shape, mask size, coloring, and markings. I was not able to find a single specimen of Northern Shrike in the Cornell collection that even remotely looked odd or like the Jones Beach bird. Not to say that the collection encompasses the entire variation, but they all looked pretty much alike. Interesting bird. Here's hoping it really is a young Loggerhead; the population could use it! Keivn Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D. Instructor Home Study Course in Bird Biology Cornell Lab of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Road Ithaca, NY 14850 hst...@cornell.edu 607-254-2452 From: bounce-7483490-3714...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-7483490-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Hugh McGuinness Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:43 AM To: Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike Just to add some other images, here are some photos of Loggerhead Shrike photo showing vermiculations http://www.beachhunter.net/blog/2008/04/wherefore-art-thou-loggerhead.html http://sdakotabirds.com/species/loggerhead_shrike_info.htm And here is Kevin McGowan's pretty excellent review of the two species using specimens. http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/loggerhd.htm Hugh On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Shaibal Mitra shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edumailto:shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu wrote: I forgot to include links to photos. Here are a few of my own, with a couple of Northern Shrike shots for comparison: http://picasaweb.google.com/tixbirdz/LongIslandMiscellany2010#http://picasaweb.google.com/tixbirdz/LongIslandMiscellany2010 Here are some from John Gluth: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgluth_brb/sets/72157625379326695/with/5212944549/ From: bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edumailto:bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu [bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edumailto:bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Shaibal Mitra [shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edumailto:shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:16 AM To: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edumailto:NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike A shrike present at Jones Beach West End, Nassau County, LI has been identified by many as a Northern Shrike, but a considerable amount of back-channel discussion has questioned whether it might actually be a Loggerhead. When I finally saw this bird well this past weekend I was already aware of the debates surrounding its identity, so I made an effort to evaluate the various characters that have been proposed in support of each species. As might be suspected multiple features have been proposed to support each view, so the question is how to evaluate the relative reliability of each character. To me, the bird appeared relatively small and quick (vs. the large and lanky impression usually imparted by Northern Shrike), with a relatively large head, rounded crown, and short bill--all consistent with Loggerhead Shrike. Also consistent with Loggerhead Shrike was the relatively dark gray tone to its back. Features more consistent with Northern Shrike include: extensively pale base to lower mandible, heavily hooked upper mandible, the shape of the black mask behind the eye, obvious gray barring on the breast in the absence of any barring on the back. The appearance of this bird's mask in the area of the eye itself and in front of the eye seems equivocal and has been argued in both directions, but I find it easier to find photos of Loggerheads that match its facial appearance than photos of Northerns that do so. Taking these features individually, I think that individual variation could account for many discrepancies either way. For instance, it seems plausible that some Northern Shrikes could have small bills and that some Loggerheads could have heavily hooked bills, etc. To me, the difficult questions are: 1. Could a Northern Shrike could look so small, quick, and large-headed? 2. Could an immature Loggerhead Shrike show a pale-based mandible and ventral barring in the absence of dorsal barring? 3
RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
Angus, To me your bird looks like a Northern. The mask is barely deeper than the eye and trails down toward the nape. The color of the head is pale, not dark like most Loggerheads (very noticeable in the drawers). And the bill appears longer and straighter. Cheers, Kevin Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D. Instructor Home Study Course in Bird Biology Cornell Lab of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Road Ithaca, NY 14850 hst...@cornell.edu 607-254-2452 From: Angus Wilson [mailto:oceanwander...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 10:37 AM To: NYSBIRDS-L Cc: Shaibal Mitra; Burke, Tom; Hugh McGuinness; Christopher Wood; Andy Guthrie; Kevin J. McGowan Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike It seems appropriate to throw one more bird into the discussion mix; a shrike that I found on 31 Oct 2010 in the Theodore Roosevelt County Park in Montauk (Suffolk Co.), a few hundred yards from a Brewer's Blackbird. If I recall correctly, this was shortly after the discovery of the Jones Beach shrike, and perhaps the only other shrike seen on Long Island during the fall/winter season (so far). Unfortunately the Montauk bird did not linger beyond the one day. It also gave the impression of being small and was harassed relentlessly by a pair of Northern Mockingbirds, making photography difficult. I still have to sit down and look carefully at it relative to the Northern/Loggerhead discussion, but thought other independent opinions would be helpful. Here is a link to the best photos I obtained. http://picasaweb.google.com/oceanwanderers/SouthForkLongIslandNY?authkey=Gv1sRgCOa3ua3EuLjJ3wE#http://picasaweb.google.com/oceanwanderers/SouthForkLongIslandNY?authkey=Gv1sRgCOa3ua3EuLjJ3wE -- Angus Wilson New York City The Springs, NY, USA http://birdingtotheend.blogspot.com/ -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html 3) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
Hello, I agree Angus' bird is a good Northern, but the bird that Shai posted is interesting!! I leaned slightly towards a small Northern with the Jones beach bird, but admit there's some conflicting characteristics present. Color of bill, lack of barring on the back, look of mask (this trait is more debatable than others), barring on chest, time of year (at least to some degree) point towards Northern, but the overall size and gist point more towards Loggerhead.as conflicting as that might sound. It's a small bird that looks consistently darker gray (consistent throughout each photo) and just doesn't really look right for Northern to me. cheers, Matt mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html 3) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
Sure, and the correct ID has been found because the specimen still existed to be examined. Check out http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Wilson/v065n01/p0046-p0047.pdf for two such stories from the same flock of birds. But, these two shrike species are so different when put side-by-side that I don't think there is a single specimen of any doubt in the Cornell collection. Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D. Instructor Home Study Course in Bird Biology Cornell Lab of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Road Ithaca, NY 14850 hst...@cornell.edu 607-254-2452 From: Grover, Bob [mailto:rgro...@gpinet.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 11:34 AM To: Kevin J. McGowan; Hugh McGuinness; Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike I know I risk excoriation here, but has a museum study skin never been misidentified? Bob Grover From: bounce-7483823-3714...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-7483823-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Kevin J. McGowan Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 10:33 AM To: Hugh McGuinness; Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike Funny, but I was going to ask about this shrike yesterday to see if anyone had taken a long hard look at it. I saw another photo and I just can't make it into a Northern Shrike. I have put some photos of a specimen from the Cornell Museum of Vertebrates that might be of interest at http://picasaweb.google.com/KevinJ.McGowan/SpecimenExamples It is a hatch year female taken in Mecox, Suffolk Co. on 26 November 1946. It shows neat light barring across the chest, a gray unbarred back, and a pale patch at the base of the bill. Several individuals in the collection looked similar. The Jones Beach individual looks very similar to my eyes, except that it doesn't have the retained juvenal wing coverts, but that molt can be variable among individuals. Shai's real Northern Shrike photo shows very substantial contrast in shape, bill shape, mask size, coloring, and markings. I was not able to find a single specimen of Northern Shrike in the Cornell collection that even remotely looked odd or like the Jones Beach bird. Not to say that the collection encompasses the entire variation, but they all looked pretty much alike. Interesting bird. Here's hoping it really is a young Loggerhead; the population could use it! Keivn Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D. Instructor Home Study Course in Bird Biology Cornell Lab of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Road Ithaca, NY 14850 hst...@cornell.edu 607-254-2452 From: bounce-7483490-3714...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-7483490-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Hugh McGuinness Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:43 AM To: Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike Just to add some other images, here are some photos of Loggerhead Shrike photo showing vermiculations http://www.beachhunter.net/blog/2008/04/wherefore-art-thou-loggerhead.html http://sdakotabirds.com/species/loggerhead_shrike_info.htm And here is Kevin McGowan's pretty excellent review of the two species using specimens. http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/loggerhd.htm Hugh On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Shaibal Mitra shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edumailto:shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu wrote: I forgot to include links to photos. Here are a few of my own, with a couple of Northern Shrike shots for comparison: http://picasaweb.google.com/tixbirdz/LongIslandMiscellany2010#http://picasaweb.google.com/tixbirdz/LongIslandMiscellany2010 Here are some from John Gluth: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgluth_brb/sets/72157625379326695/with/5212944549/ From: bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edumailto:bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu [bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edumailto:bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Shaibal Mitra [shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edumailto:shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:16 AM To: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edumailto:NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike A shrike present at Jones Beach West End, Nassau County, LI has been identified by many as a Northern Shrike, but a considerable amount of back-channel discussion has questioned whether it might actually be a Loggerhead. When I finally saw this bird well this past weekend I was already aware of the debates surrounding its identity, so I made an effort to evaluate the various characters that have been proposed in support of each species. As might be suspected multiple features have been proposed to support each view, so the question is how to evaluate the relative reliability of each character. To me, the bird appeared relatively small and quick (vs. the large and lanky impression usually imparted by Northern Shrike), with a relatively large head
RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
It's worth noting that mid 20th Century birders knew Loggerhead Shrike as a regular fall vagrant on LI and coastal southern New England, perhaps comparable in frequency to Western Kingbird. These fall Loggerheads mostly occurred much earlier than Northern Shrike would be expected, from late August through October, but there are many critically identified records from November and December--as attested by Kevin's Thanksgiving specimen from Mecox. Because these vagrants vanished in step with the nearest, northeastern breeding populations, it is likely that many derived from those sources. Even so, we actually know very little about the precise origins of our coastal vagrants--even the frequent ones like Western Kingbird and Lark Sparrow. Shai Mitra Bay Shore From: Kevin J. McGowan [k...@cornell.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 11:57 AM To: Grover, Bob; Hugh McGuinness; Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike Sure, and the correct ID has been found because the specimen still existed to be examined. Check out http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Wilson/v065n01/p0046-p0047.pdf for two such stories from the same flock of birds. But, these two shrike species are so different when put side-by-side that I don’t think there is a single specimen of any doubt in the Cornell collection. Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D. Instructor Home Study Course in Bird Biology Cornell Lab of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Road Ithaca, NY 14850 hst...@cornell.edu 607-254-2452 From: Grover, Bob [mailto:rgro...@gpinet.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 11:34 AM To: Kevin J. McGowan; Hugh McGuinness; Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike I know I risk excoriation here, but has a museum study skin never been misidentified? Bob Grover From: bounce-7483823-3714...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-7483823-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Kevin J. McGowan Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 10:33 AM To: Hugh McGuinness; Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike Funny, but I was going to ask about this shrike yesterday to see if anyone had taken a long hard look at it. I saw another photo and I just can’t make it into a Northern Shrike. I have put some photos of a specimen from the Cornell Museum of Vertebrates that might be of interest at http://picasaweb.google.com/KevinJ.McGowan/SpecimenExamples It is a hatch year female taken in Mecox, Suffolk Co. on 26 November 1946. It shows neat light barring across the chest, a gray unbarred back, and a pale patch at the base of the bill. Several individuals in the collection looked similar. The Jones Beach individual looks very similar to my eyes, except that it doesn’t have the retained juvenal wing coverts, but that molt can be variable among individuals. Shai’s real Northern Shrike photo shows very substantial contrast in shape, bill shape, mask size, coloring, and markings. I was not able to find a single specimen of Northern Shrike in the Cornell collection that even remotely looked odd or like the Jones Beach bird. Not to say that the collection encompasses the entire variation, but they all looked pretty much alike. Interesting bird. Here’s hoping it really is a young Loggerhead; the population could use it! Keivn Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D. Instructor Home Study Course in Bird Biology Cornell Lab of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Road Ithaca, NY 14850 hst...@cornell.edu 607-254-2452 Think green before you print this email. -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html 3) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
It seems appropriate to throw one more bird into the discussion mix; a shrike that I found on 31 Oct 2010 in the Theodore Roosevelt County Park in Montauk (Suffolk Co.), a few hundred yards from a Brewer's Blackbird. If I recall correctly, this was shortly after the discovery of the Jones Beach shrike, and perhaps the only other shrike seen on Long Island during the fall/winter season (so far). Unfortunately the Montauk bird did not linger beyond the one day. It also gave the impression of being small and was harassed relentlessly by a pair of Northern Mockingbirds, making photography difficult. I still have to sit down and look carefully at it relative to the Northern/Loggerhead discussion, but thought other independent opinions would be helpful. Here is a link to the best photos I obtained. http://picasaweb.google.com/oceanwanderers/SouthForkLongIslandNY?authkey=Gv1sRgCOa3ua3EuLjJ3wE# -- Angus Wilson New York City The Springs, NY, USA http://birdingtotheend.blogspot.com/ -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html 3) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike
I know I risk excoriation here, but has a museum study skin never been misidentified? Bob Grover From: bounce-7483823-3714...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-7483823-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Kevin J. McGowan Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 10:33 AM To: Hugh McGuinness; Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike Funny, but I was going to ask about this shrike yesterday to see if anyone had taken a long hard look at it. I saw another photo and I just can't make it into a Northern Shrike. I have put some photos of a specimen from the Cornell Museum of Vertebrates that might be of interest at http://picasaweb.google.com/KevinJ.McGowan/SpecimenExamples It is a hatch year female taken in Mecox, Suffolk Co. on 26 November 1946. It shows neat light barring across the chest, a gray unbarred back, and a pale patch at the base of the bill. Several individuals in the collection looked similar. The Jones Beach individual looks very similar to my eyes, except that it doesn't have the retained juvenal wing coverts, but that molt can be variable among individuals. Shai's real Northern Shrike photo shows very substantial contrast in shape, bill shape, mask size, coloring, and markings. I was not able to find a single specimen of Northern Shrike in the Cornell collection that even remotely looked odd or like the Jones Beach bird. Not to say that the collection encompasses the entire variation, but they all looked pretty much alike. Interesting bird. Here's hoping it really is a young Loggerhead; the population could use it! Keivn Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D. Instructor Home Study Course in Bird Biology Cornell Lab of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Road Ithaca, NY 14850 hst...@cornell.edu 607-254-2452 From: bounce-7483490-3714...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-7483490-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Hugh McGuinness Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:43 AM To: Shaibal Mitra Cc: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike Just to add some other images, here are some photos of Loggerhead Shrike photo showing vermiculations http://www.beachhunter.net/blog/2008/04/wherefore-art-thou-loggerhead.html http://sdakotabirds.com/species/loggerhead_shrike_info.htm And here is Kevin McGowan's pretty excellent review of the two species using specimens. http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/loggerhd.htm Hugh On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Shaibal Mitra shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edumailto:shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu wrote: I forgot to include links to photos. Here are a few of my own, with a couple of Northern Shrike shots for comparison: http://picasaweb.google.com/tixbirdz/LongIslandMiscellany2010#http://picasaweb.google.com/tixbirdz/LongIslandMiscellany2010 Here are some from John Gluth: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgluth_brb/sets/72157625379326695/with/5212944549/ From: bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edumailto:bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu [bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edumailto:bounce-7483412-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Shaibal Mitra [shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edumailto:shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:16 AM To: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edumailto:NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) Subject: [nysbirds-l] Identity of Jones Beach Shrike A shrike present at Jones Beach West End, Nassau County, LI has been identified by many as a Northern Shrike, but a considerable amount of back-channel discussion has questioned whether it might actually be a Loggerhead. When I finally saw this bird well this past weekend I was already aware of the debates surrounding its identity, so I made an effort to evaluate the various characters that have been proposed in support of each species. As might be suspected multiple features have been proposed to support each view, so the question is how to evaluate the relative reliability of each character. To me, the bird appeared relatively small and quick (vs. the large and lanky impression usually imparted by Northern Shrike), with a relatively large head, rounded crown, and short bill--all consistent with Loggerhead Shrike. Also consistent with Loggerhead Shrike was the relatively dark gray tone to its back. Features more consistent with Northern Shrike include: extensively pale base to lower mandible, heavily hooked upper mandible, the shape of the black mask behind the eye, obvious gray barring on the breast in the absence of any barring on the back. The appearance of this bird's mask in the area of the eye itself and in front of the eye seems equivocal and has been argued in both directions, but I find it easier to find photos of Loggerheads that match its facial appearance than photos of Northerns that do so. Taking these features individually, I think that individual variation could account for many discrepancies
