Re: [Offline-l] Wikimedia Brand Survey

[Emmanuel Engelhart]

Hi

Thank you Florence & Sj for your feedbacks and additional information.

This was necessary to me but they confirm my personal primary feelings.

I had the belief that the current WMF mgmt (board?) would at least avoid
this kind of mistake. I have to admit I was wrong. It looks like there
is a kind of pattern at the WMF which transcends the ages & persons.

I have invested 20mn to fill the survey anyway.

Emmanuel

On 21.06.20 19:40, Florence Devouard wrote:
> It is a fair question Emmanuel
> 
> 
> Well, what you say is true. In short, if I summarize super briefly
> 
> 1) According to Heather, the brand redefinition was a request from the
> board back in 2015. But there is no mention in board meeting minutes and
> two former board members do not remember this decision. Note: this was
> in Lila time.
> However, it seems indeed that the board confirmed its non-opposition to
> the communication team to work on that topic in 2018:
> https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Minutes/2018-11-9,10,11#Branding
> Note that this does not appear to be a request from the board to the
> staff, but rather a request from the staff to be allowed to explore.
> 
> 2) Brand awareness survey done in 7 countries in 2017 showed poor
> visibility and understanding of the wikimedia brand
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2017/Sources/Brand_awareness,_attitudes,_and_usage_-_Executive_Summary
> 
> 2) When a survey was done a bit later, the statistical results were
> displayed in such a way that the case was made from the brand team that
> there was very little opposition from the community
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Communications%2FWikimedia_brands%2F2030_research_and_planning%2Fcommunity_review%2Fresults=revision=19827063=19800238
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia#Updates_from_the_Foundation
> Evidence was made that the statistical presentation was broken and
> misleading.
> Arguments from opponents to the change include the fact the board
> members might have been mislead in believing there was no opposition
> from the community, and thus approved a rebranding without correct context.
> 
> 3) Following that situation, a RFC was launched by the community, and
> show an overwelming opposition to replace Wikimedia with Wikipedia in
> our orgs and projects name.
> Note that RFC is opt-in only, so might over represent those who oppose
> the rebranding. Hence the case made for the final survey to poll
> community members about their position on the matter.
> Those who want to further explore:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia
> 
> 4) The Brand team continued its work. Extensive discussions followed,
> with face to face brainstorming events to try to identify "good ideas".
> And key argument to opponants was that it was still in discussion phase etc.
> Brand network was created to better inform etc., give arguments in favor
> of the change etc. (I joined it as representant of offline UG to keep
> track of what was going on)
> There was further information provided about a month ago during a public
> meeting, revealing a collection of "words/directions"
> There were repeated requests from the people following this topic, for
> the final survey to include the "no change please" option. But this has
> been dismissed repeatedly.
> 
> 5) Then finally a new survey (the one I mentionned earlier) was proposed
> a few days ago with a short list of options. The "no option" is not
> proposed, and the three options include replacing wikimedia by wikipedia.
> This is creating social unrest. Best person to know more about that is
> Andrew Lih.
> 
> 6) An executive statement was published 2 days ago, stating that a) this
> rebranding was done per board request, and 2) the rename will happen
> Quote: *"We should have been clearer: a rebrand will happen. This has
> already been decided by the Board. The place where we seek consultation
> and input is on what an optimal rebrand looks like, and what the path to
> get there will be."*
> To read full statement :
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project/Executive_statement
> 
> 7) There is a boiling discussion on whether to set up a central banner
> to invite participants to respond the survey, with community opposition
> to set up the banner.
> I have actually been contacted by some staff about this, who were
> apparently trying to evaluate the level of risk of WMF staff to be
> unsysoped if they decided the get over the community and activate the
> banner anyway
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/CentralNotice/Request/Movement_Brand_naming_proposals
> I am not sure the banner is live yet. At least, I see no banner myself.
> It should have gone live on the 16th
> 
> 8) Thus followed much discussion after the executive statement, on
> telegram and on meta.
> Probably central place 

Re: [Offline-l] Wikimedia Brand Survey

[Florence Devouard]

It is a fair question Emmanuel


Well, what you say is true. In short, if I summarize super briefly

1) According to Heather, the brand redefinition was a request from the 
board back in 2015. But there is no mention in board meeting minutes and 
two former board members do not remember this decision. Note: this was 
in Lila time.
However, it seems indeed that the board confirmed its non-opposition to 
the communication team to work on that topic in 2018:

https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Minutes/2018-11-9,10,11#Branding
Note that this does not appear to be a request from the board to the 
staff, but rather a request from the staff to be allowed to explore.


2) Brand awareness survey done in 7 countries in 2017 showed poor 
visibility and understanding of the wikimedia brand

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2017/Sources/Brand_awareness,_attitudes,_and_usage_-_Executive_Summary

2) When a survey was done a bit later, the statistical results were 
displayed in such a way that the case was made from the brand team that 
there was very little opposition from the community

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Communications%2FWikimedia_brands%2F2030_research_and_planning%2Fcommunity_review%2Fresults=revision=19827063=19800238
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia#Updates_from_the_Foundation
Evidence was made that the statistical presentation was broken and 
misleading.
Arguments from opponents to the change include the fact the board 
members might have been mislead in believing there was no opposition 
from the community, and thus approved a rebranding without correct context.


3) Following that situation, a RFC was launched by the community, and 
show an overwelming opposition to replace Wikimedia with Wikipedia in 
our orgs and projects name.
Note that RFC is opt-in only, so might over represent those who oppose 
the rebranding. Hence the case made for the final survey to poll 
community members about their position on the matter.
Those who want to further explore: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia


4) The Brand team continued its work. Extensive discussions followed, 
with face to face brainstorming events to try to identify "good ideas". 
And key argument to opponants was that it was still in discussion phase etc.
Brand network was created to better inform etc., give arguments in favor 
of the change etc. (I joined it as representant of offline UG to keep 
track of what was going on)
There was further information provided about a month ago during a public 
meeting, revealing a collection of "words/directions"
There were repeated requests from the people following this topic, for 
the final survey to include the "no change please" option. But this has 
been dismissed repeatedly.


5) Then finally a new survey (the one I mentionned earlier) was proposed 
a few days ago with a short list of options. The "no option" is not 
proposed, and the three options include replacing wikimedia by wikipedia.
This is creating social unrest. Best person to know more about that is 
Andrew Lih.


6) An executive statement was published 2 days ago, stating that a) this 
rebranding was done per board request, and 2) the rename will happen
Quote: *"We should have been clearer: a rebrand will happen. This has 
already been decided by the Board. The place where we seek consultation 
and input is on what an optimal rebrand looks like, and what the path to 
get there will be."*
To read full statement : 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project/Executive_statement


7) There is a boiling discussion on whether to set up a central banner 
to invite participants to respond the survey, with community opposition 
to set up the banner.
I have actually been contacted by some staff about this, who were 
apparently trying to evaluate the level of risk of WMF staff to be 
unsysoped if they decided the get over the community and activate the 
banner anyway

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/CentralNotice/Request/Movement_Brand_naming_proposals
I am not sure the banner is live yet. At least, I see no banner myself. 
It should have gone live on the 16th


8) Thus followed much discussion after the executive statement, on 
telegram and on meta.
Probably central place is here : 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project/Executive_statement#A_call_for_Board_statements,_and_disappointment
APPARENTLY, a statement from the board is expected. Unless wrong, it has 
not been published yet.


9) There is a meeting TONIGHT (21h UTC+2), community organized, on the 
matter.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/All-Affiliates_Brand_Meeting
I'll attend and will try to summarize


Should you invest more time on the process ? Good question. I am asking 
myself the same question. We have a few more 

Re: [Offline-l] Wikimedia Brand Survey

[Samuel Klein]

In two hours (at 0500 CEST) and tomorrow (2100 Sunday), there will be a
community discussion of the proposed Wikimedia rebrand, organized by some
affiliates (not by the WMF). I'll be there.

We are meeting in part to confirm that there is no silent group of
affiliates who are enthusiastic about the change.  [One of the early
statistics presented was of a large number of 'supportive' affiliates,
where the support seems to have been "sure, work through this process if it
is a sincere collaboration on finding good new names".]

Last post by me on this topic; back to regularly scheduled offlining,
SJ


-- Forwarded message -
From: Pharos 
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 2:31 PM
Subject: [All-affiliates] June 21 All-Affiliates Brand Meeting
To: Wikimedia Affiliates 


All Wikimedia affiliates are invited to join an urgent meeting on the Brand
Project in two sessions on Sunday June 21, regarding the most recent
developments. This has been proposed and discussed on the "Wiki User Groups
Affiliates" Telegram channel.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/All-Affiliates_Brand_Meeting

3:00 UTC (Asia-Pacific friendly time - https://zonestamp.com/1592708427)
https://meet.google.com/mff-bsiy-tvd

19:00 UTC (Europe-Africa-Americas friendly time -
https://zonestamp.com/1592766035)
https://meet.google.com/hjq-ptwx-aex

Please see proposed agenda, and sign up with your affiliate here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/All-Affiliates_Brand_Meeting

Thanks,
Richard
(User:Pharos)
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On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 9:15 PM Samuel Klein  wrote:

> Florence - yes, I see that.
>
> Emmanuel - No need to spend much time on this process; but a quick filling
> out of the survey indicating dissatisfaction with every option will help
> close off this possibility for creative use of statistics.
>
> For those who do want to discuss this briefly w/ other affiliates (rather
> than w/ staff), see my following message.
>
> Warmly, S
>
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 3:24 AM Emmanuel Engelhart 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Florence
>>
>> Thank you for keeping us up-to-date with this process.
>>
>> On 17.06.20 20:08, Florence Devouard wrote:
>> > So, the Brand Team is moving on and has announced a short list of
>> > proposals to rename Wikimedia Foundation, UG and such to remove the word
>> > "Wikimedia"
>>
>> I hope I'm properly informed, but AFAIK there is an extremely strong
>> majority (almost a consensus) within the community against replacing
>> "Wikimedia" with "Wikipedia" in our orgs naming. cf.
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia
>>
>> But it seems that the process continues without taking in account the
>> result of this survey. To me, this seems not fair.
>>
>> Considering that offline activities are booming, in particular because
>> of the Covid19 pandemic and therefore we have a lot to do anyway, I
>> wonder why exactly I should invest more time on this process?!
>>
>> Regards
>> Emmanuel
>>
>> --
>> Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
>> * Web: https://kiwix.org/
>> * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
>> * Wiki: https://wiki.kiwix.org/
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/offline-l
>>
>
>
> --
> Samuel Klein  @metasj   w:user:sj  +1 617 529 4266
>


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Re: [Offline-l] Wikimedia Brand Survey

[Samuel Klein]

Florence - yes, I see that.

Emmanuel - No need to spend much time on this process; but a quick filling
out of the survey indicating dissatisfaction with every option will help
close off this possibility for creative use of statistics.

For those who do want to discuss this briefly w/ other affiliates (rather
than w/ staff), see my following message.

Warmly, S

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 3:24 AM Emmanuel Engelhart  wrote:

> Hi Florence
>
> Thank you for keeping us up-to-date with this process.
>
> On 17.06.20 20:08, Florence Devouard wrote:
> > So, the Brand Team is moving on and has announced a short list of
> > proposals to rename Wikimedia Foundation, UG and such to remove the word
> > "Wikimedia"
>
> I hope I'm properly informed, but AFAIK there is an extremely strong
> majority (almost a consensus) within the community against replacing
> "Wikimedia" with "Wikipedia" in our orgs naming. cf.
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia
>
> But it seems that the process continues without taking in account the
> result of this survey. To me, this seems not fair.
>
> Considering that offline activities are booming, in particular because
> of the Covid19 pandemic and therefore we have a lot to do anyway, I
> wonder why exactly I should invest more time on this process?!
>
> Regards
> Emmanuel
>
> --
> Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> * Web: https://kiwix.org/
> * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> * Wiki: https://wiki.kiwix.org/
>
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Re: [Offline-l] Wikimedia Brand Survey

[Emmanuel Engelhart]

Hi Florence

Thank you for keeping us up-to-date with this process.

On 17.06.20 20:08, Florence Devouard wrote:
> So, the Brand Team is moving on and has announced a short list of
> proposals to rename Wikimedia Foundation, UG and such to remove the word
> "Wikimedia"

I hope I'm properly informed, but AFAIK there is an extremely strong
majority (almost a consensus) within the community against replacing
"Wikimedia" with "Wikipedia" in our orgs naming. cf.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia

But it seems that the process continues without taking in account the
result of this survey. To me, this seems not fair.

Considering that offline activities are booming, in particular because
of the Covid19 pandemic and therefore we have a lot to do anyway, I
wonder why exactly I should invest more time on this process?!

Regards
Emmanuel

-- 
Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
* Web: https://kiwix.org/
* Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
* Wiki: https://wiki.kiwix.org/



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Re: [Offline-l] Wikimedia Brand Survey

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Florence Devouard, 18/06/20 04:16:
Of course, that should not prevent us to propose names of replacement 
for WMF. Or to propose Wikimedia Foundation to replace Wikimedia 
Foundation (hmm, actually, no change then).


Makes sense. It seems there are no ideas for a better name of the user 
group, so confirming "Wikimedians for offline wikis" seems logical.


Federico

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Re: [Offline-l] Wikimedia Brand Survey

[Florence Devouard]

Hey Sj


Make sure you read the proposals very carefully. You'll find out that 
the 3 proposed proposals all provide the same name for the Wikimedia 
Foundation. Which is the Wikipedia Foundation.

According to the rumors, this is basically decided.

Of course, that should not prevent us to propose names of replacement 
for WMF. Or to propose Wikimedia Foundation to replace Wikimedia 
Foundation (hmm, actually, no change then).


This being said... I rather agree with you. The option 3 (wiki etc.) 
sounds like the "least bad" to me, though none of the options really 
reasonate.



Flo


Le 18/06/2020 à 02:50, Samuel Klein a écrit :
I can imagine "Wiki" and "Wikigroup", but none of the other options 
really resonate.
"...part of the Wikimedia family of projects".  and something like 
"WikiFoundation" could work for taglines and the global org name.  The 
movement could not be the Wiki Movement unless we start supporting 
/all/ wiki tools (though that would be pretty great - we could 
actually do that now!).


My quick thoughts.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 2:08 PM Florence Devouard > wrote:


Hello friends


So, the Brand Team is moving on and has announced a short list of
proposals to rename Wikimedia Foundation, UG and such to remove
the word
"Wikimedia"

Yesterday, the Team presented the results of their thinking during a
live youtube session.
It is one hour long, but the presentation itself is less than 30
minutes. Then followed by questions.

To know more about the three propositions, the page to go to :

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project/Naming_convention_proposals

The Brand team also launched yesterday a new survey to measure our
support to this new branding scheme.

We are invited to participate to this survey in two capacities
1. as individuals
2. as affiliate

And quite naturally, we can also react, discuss etc in the above
mentionned talk page, on mailing lists, telegram etc.

Taking the survey as individual is your own decision. Deadline
June 30th

However, answering as an affiliate is a slighly more complicated
thing
to do.

So I reported that in a wiki page, where we can collect feedback from
you and try to answer in the name of the group, if relevant.
Roughly... if there is a general agreement... it will be easy to
respond
in the name of the offline UG
If there is no clear agreement... we'll have to reflect on what to do

But the first step in any cases is to actually record your
thoughts on
the matter.


Steps for you...
1) if you are not aware of the topic, and arguments behind the
proposition >

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project
2) if you would like to read some feedback from the community, check
this :

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia
3) to read the proposals :

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project/Naming_convention_proposals
4) to watch the youtube session :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3zlBGHHHiY
5) to take the survey as an individual :

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project/Naming_convention_proposals
6) to reflect with the group: here by email or there :
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Offline_Projects/Mouvement_Brand_Project

Thanks


Anthere


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Re: [Offline-l] Wikimedia Brand Survey

[Samuel Klein]

I can imagine "Wiki" and "Wikigroup", but none of the other options really
resonate.
"...part of the Wikimedia family of projects".  and something like
"WikiFoundation" could work for taglines and the global org name.  The
movement could not be the Wiki Movement unless we start supporting *all* wiki
tools (though that would be pretty great - we could actually do that now!).

My quick thoughts.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 2:08 PM Florence Devouard 
wrote:

> Hello friends
>
>
> So, the Brand Team is moving on and has announced a short list of
> proposals to rename Wikimedia Foundation, UG and such to remove the word
> "Wikimedia"
>
> Yesterday, the Team presented the results of their thinking during a
> live youtube session.
> It is one hour long, but the presentation itself is less than 30
> minutes. Then followed by questions.
>
> To know more about the three propositions, the page to go to :
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project/Naming_convention_proposals
>
> The Brand team also launched yesterday a new survey to measure our
> support to this new branding scheme.
>
> We are invited to participate to this survey in two capacities
> 1. as individuals
> 2. as affiliate
>
> And quite naturally, we can also react, discuss etc in the above
> mentionned talk page, on mailing lists, telegram etc.
>
> Taking the survey as individual is your own decision. Deadline June 30th
>
> However, answering as an affiliate is a slighly more complicated thing
> to do.
>
> So I reported that in a wiki page, where we can collect feedback from
> you and try to answer in the name of the group, if relevant.
> Roughly... if there is a general agreement... it will be easy to respond
> in the name of the offline UG
> If there is no clear agreement... we'll have to reflect on what to do
>
> But the first step in any cases is to actually record your thoughts on
> the matter.
>
>
> Steps for you...
> 1) if you are not aware of the topic, and arguments behind the
> proposition >
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project
> 2) if you would like to read some feedback from the community, check
> this :
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia
> 3) to read the proposals :
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project/Naming_convention_proposals
> 4) to watch the youtube session :
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3zlBGHHHiY
> 5) to take the survey as an individual :
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project/Naming_convention_proposals
> 6) to reflect with the group: here by email or there :
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Offline_Projects/Mouvement_Brand_Project
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Anthere
>
>
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