Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
Andrew, Welcome! On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:16 PM Andrew Luke Nesbit < ullbek...@andrewnesbit.org> wrote: > On 17/01/2020 14:32, Volker A. Brandt wrote: > > Hi Andrew! > > Hi Volker! Thank you for the warm and encouraging message. > > >> I have been discussing my options for what OS to install on a Sun > >> T5140. I plan to use this as a multi-user OS, virtualization host, > >> and ZFS file server. > > > > The T5140 are nice machines. > > Yes, I believe that this should be an interesting and productive machine > to work with. > It's what Tribblix (and current illumos for SPARC) are developed on. I'm ripping the untested and unsupported code for some of the older and more expensive systems, but the T5140 is pretty much an ideal target for illumos. Nice, if noisy. (Demonstrates Amdahl's law quite nicely, too.) > I have yet to take full inventory of its hardware and to see how I can > upgrade it to make the most of it. Thankfully I have a local contact > who is a Sun & SPARC & Solaris expert. He has been very helpful and > charges very reasonable rates to individuals. > > >> It will be exposed to the Internet so other users can log in to the > >> base OS or their VM's. I will therefore harden the system and deploy > >> it in a network environment such as a DMZ and/or allow access via a > >> hardened VPN or jump box. > > > > Depending on what hardware you have available, you may want to use > > a LDOM for this. > Not a bad plan. I used LDOMs when creating the initial version of Tribblix for SPARC - it's a lot easier to do boot testing in an LDOM than a physical environment. > This has been suggested by other Solaris users and admins too. > > I am actually re-considering which of the following two options will be > better: > > - Installing Solaris 11.3, which will function as a stable(?) base OS, > and using an LDOM to install some port of illumos that works on this > SPARC. The problem is that Solaris 11.3 is EOL (see below) and this is > causing me to rething. > If LDOMs are all you're using 11.3 for, then the fact that it's EOL doesn't really matter. In terms of Solaris, I see illumos having a place supporting the hardware models that Solaris 11 doesn't currently, but where the hardware is still useful and easy to get. > - Installing a port of illumos that works on this SPARC directly to > the bare metal. In this case I would hope that this port also supports > LDOM's without too much trouble. To be honest, I don't know. We have some of the LDOM pieces; I haven't tested them and don't know if they're complete. > However on the contrary I will take > your advice to go with Solaris 11.3 (see below). > > Of course the advantage of LDOM's is that experimenting with different > OS'es, plus developing any illumos-derived per se, would presumably be > easier. > As said before, definitely true. > >> My current plan is first to install Oracle Solaris 11.3 and evaluate > >> Solaris as an option. Before 11.3 reaches EOL I would re-evaluate > >> whether to invest in newer, supported hardware to run a newer and > >> supported version of Solaris. > > > > Solaris 11.3 has already reached EOL. If you have a support contract, > > you can still get security updates, but even those will stop soon. > > I don't have a support contract as this machine is for non-commercial > use. This means that certain critical documents are unavailable to me, > e.g., the document that explains when various components of Solaris 11.3 > will be EOL'ed. Here I am particularly concerned about security updates. > > >> It would be ideal and preferable if I could use an illumos-derived OS > >> as a user. The aim would be to develop my skills and ultimately > >> contribute to SPARC support. This is a more productive goal I think. > > > > That is certainly possible. > > Does "possible" imply a good end user experience? > > Do you know which illumos-derived OS on SPARC provides the best user > experience? > Depends on the target user. The fact that you're talking about a T5140 might indicate you're not thinking about the desktop experience. Tribblix does most of the things I want such a system to do, modulo the fact that a number of modern technologies have bypassed SPARC entirely (eg Node,JS, Golang). Tribblix is good enough to do general software development and support, and to develop and support illumos. (Although, for the latter, it turns out that I have done a terrible job of providing a way for somebody other than myself to use Tribblix to do illumos development, there are a number of "works on my machine" hacks that I had completely forgotten about, which I need to fix at some point.) > >> This thread has given me the impression that OpenIndiana has (some?) > >> SPARC support. However according to the OI FAQ I would have to run a > >> different illumos-derived OS for SPARC support ( > >> > https://www.openindiana.org/documentation/faq/#does-openindiana-provide-a-sparc-release > >> ). > > > > This FAQ
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
On 17/01/2020 14:32, Volker A. Brandt wrote: Hi Andrew! Hi Volker! Thank you for the warm and encouraging message. I have been discussing my options for what OS to install on a Sun T5140. I plan to use this as a multi-user OS, virtualization host, and ZFS file server. The T5140 are nice machines. Yes, I believe that this should be an interesting and productive machine to work with. I have yet to take full inventory of its hardware and to see how I can upgrade it to make the most of it. Thankfully I have a local contact who is a Sun & SPARC & Solaris expert. He has been very helpful and charges very reasonable rates to individuals. It will be exposed to the Internet so other users can log in to the base OS or their VM's. I will therefore harden the system and deploy it in a network environment such as a DMZ and/or allow access via a hardened VPN or jump box. Depending on what hardware you have available, you may want to use a LDOM for this. This has been suggested by other Solaris users and admins too. I am actually re-considering which of the following two options will be better: - Installing Solaris 11.3, which will function as a stable(?) base OS, and using an LDOM to install some port of illumos that works on this SPARC. The problem is that Solaris 11.3 is EOL (see below) and this is causing me to rething. - Installing a port of illumos that works on this SPARC directly to the bare metal. In this case I would hope that this port also supports LDOM's without too much trouble. However on the contrary I will take your advice to go with Solaris 11.3 (see below). Of course the advantage of LDOM's is that experimenting with different OS'es, plus developing any illumos-derived per se, would presumably be easier. My current plan is first to install Oracle Solaris 11.3 and evaluate Solaris as an option. Before 11.3 reaches EOL I would re-evaluate whether to invest in newer, supported hardware to run a newer and supported version of Solaris. Solaris 11.3 has already reached EOL. If you have a support contract, you can still get security updates, but even those will stop soon. I don't have a support contract as this machine is for non-commercial use. This means that certain critical documents are unavailable to me, e.g., the document that explains when various components of Solaris 11.3 will be EOL'ed. Here I am particularly concerned about security updates. It would be ideal and preferable if I could use an illumos-derived OS as a user. The aim would be to develop my skills and ultimately contribute to SPARC support. This is a more productive goal I think. That is certainly possible. Does "possible" imply a good end user experience? Do you know which illumos-derived OS on SPARC provides the best user experience? This thread has given me the impression that OpenIndiana has (some?) SPARC support. However according to the OI FAQ I would have to run a different illumos-derived OS for SPARC support ( https://www.openindiana.org/documentation/faq/#does-openindiana-provide-a-sparc-release ). This FAQ does not reflect recent developments. Gary Mills has success- fully compiled a subset of OpenIndiana to run on SPARC. I will contact Gary and find out where this is at now. Please could somebody clarify for me? Also, would OpenIndiana run on my T5140? That subset would, yes. I'm very interested to find out what this subset is. If the documentation could be pulled up to date then I think this would help a lot for new users to understand where SPARC is currently at re: support. I would suggest that you investigate LDOMs a.k.a. "Oracle VM for SPARC", and install Solaris 11.3 in a control domain on your T5140. Then, you can create LDOMs (= SPARC VMs) and install the Illumos-based OS of your choice inside those LDOMs. OK, so even though Solaris 11.3 is EOL and eventually even security patches will stop being provided, this would still be the recommended option? I tried reading the document in the 11.3 documentation library that explains when various aspects of 11.3 will be EOL but unfortunately I need a support contract to access it. Do you know when security updates will stop being provided? Currently, there are: - Solaris 11.3 - Tribblix (a minimal system using the SVR4 package format) - OpenIndiana (a subset of Openindiana using IPS packages) - v9os (an older version of OmniOS, using IPS packages) - Dilos, running Debian userland on an Illumos-based kernel Unfortuately, OpenSXCE is not developed any more. It seems to me that Tribblix and Dilos are the most actively developed open source options for SPARC. Would this be an accurate assessment? Is OpenIndiana officially focused on x86 or do the development priorities also include SPARC? (Assuming that the resources exist for supporting SPARC.) Feel free to ask any questions you might have. The Illumos mailing list is also worth joining, if you
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
Hi Andrew! > I have been discussing my options for what OS to install on a Sun > T5140. I plan to use this as a multi-user OS, virtualization host, > and ZFS file server. The T5140 are nice machines. > It will be exposed to the Internet so other users can log in to the > base OS or their VM's. I will therefore harden the system and deploy > it in a network environment such as a DMZ and/or allow access via a > hardened VPN or jump box. Depending on what hardware you have available, you may want to use a LDOM for this. > My current plan is first to install Oracle Solaris 11.3 and evaluate > Solaris as an option. Before 11.3 reaches EOL I would re-evaluate > whether to invest in newer, supported hardware to run a newer and > supported version of Solaris. Solaris 11.3 has already reached EOL. If you have a support contract, you can still get security updates, but even those will stop soon. [...] > It would be ideal and preferable if I could use an illumos-derived OS > as a user. The aim would be to develop my skills and ultimately > contribute to SPARC support. This is a more productive goal I think. That is certainly possible. > This thread has given me the impression that OpenIndiana has (some?) > SPARC support. However according to the OI FAQ I would have to run a > different illumos-derived OS for SPARC support ( > https://www.openindiana.org/documentation/faq/#does-openindiana-provide-a-sparc-release > ). This FAQ does not reflect recent developments. Gary Mills has success- fully compiled a subset of OpenIndiana to run on SPARC. > Please could somebody clarify for me? Also, would OpenIndiana run on > my T5140? That subset would, yes. > I am looking for the most direct way to get started running *nix on > this T5140. Also I am investigating opportunities for contributing to > SPARC ports -- on various OS'es -- of particular user-level libraries > and applications. I have been discussing this with potential > collaborators. > > Thank you for any advice! I would suggest that you investigate LDOMs a.k.a. "Oracle VM for SPARC", and install Solaris 11.3 in a control domain on your T5140. Then, you can create LDOMs (= SPARC VMs) and install the Illumos-based OS of your choice inside those LDOMs. Currently, there are: - Solaris 11.3 - Tribblix (a minimal system using the SVR4 package format) - OpenIndiana (a subset of Openindiana using IPS packages) - v9os (an older version of OmniOS, using IPS packages) - Dilos, running Debian userland on an Illumos-based kernel Unfortuately, OpenSXCE is not developed any more. Feel free to ask any questions you might have. The Illumos mailing list is also worth joining, if you aren't on it already. Regards -- Volker -- Volker A. BrandtConsulting and Support for Solaris-based Systems Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/ Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim, GERMANYEmail: v...@bb-c.de Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513 Schuhgröße: 46 Geschäftsführer: Rainer J.H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt "When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead" ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
On 12/12/19 03:13 PM, Gary Mills wrote: On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 09:34:03AM +0100, Michal Nowak via oi-dev wrote: Thanks for your answers, Gary. One point of clarification below: On 11/27/19 03:58 PM, Gary Mills wrote: * we don't test that changes build the less work on SPARC I don't understand this condition. "It's not required to test update (PR) on SPARC for it to be merged." Is this wording clearer? Yes, that's clear to me. Currently it's required minimal testing to be done for a PR to be accepted. I am basically not expecting PR to be tested on SPARC for it to be integrated. I assume that a PR will always be tested on x86. That's fine with me. Thanks. This arrangement should work for me. Feel free to come-up with SPARC-related PRs in GitHub. Michal ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 09:34:03AM +0100, Michal Nowak via oi-dev wrote: > Thanks for your answers, Gary. One point of clarification below: > > On 11/27/19 03:58 PM, Gary Mills wrote: > > > * we don't test that changes build the less work on SPARC > > > > I don't understand this condition. > > "It's not required to test update (PR) on SPARC for it to be merged." > > Is this wording clearer? Yes, that's clear to me. > Currently it's required minimal testing to be done for a PR to be accepted. > I am basically not expecting PR to be tested on SPARC for it to be > integrated. I assume that a PR will always be tested on x86. That's fine with me. -- -Gary Mills--refurb--Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada- ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
Thanks for your answers, Gary. One point of clarification below: On 11/27/19 03:58 PM, Gary Mills wrote: * we don't test that changes build the less work on SPARC I don't understand this condition. "It's not required to test update (PR) on SPARC for it to be merged." Is this wording clearer? Currently it's required minimal testing to be done for a PR to be accepted. I am basically not expecting PR to be tested on SPARC for it to be integrated. Michal ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
Gary, 1. Testing a newer compile of the current illumos-gate snapshot seems reasonable to ensure everything still works with your SPARC-related changes. Ref: https://github.com/illumos/illumos-gate/commit/f52943a93040563107b95bccb9db87d9971ef47d I'll review your SPARC-related tickets, if you have any porting issues with recent oi-userland on SPARC - did you provide a list as well? ~ Ken On Tuesday, November 26, 2019, 6:47:33 AM PST, Gary Mills wrote: On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 08:40:58PM +, Peter Tribble wrote: > On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 8:43 PM Gary Mills <[1]gary_mi...@fastmail.fm> > wrote: > > I have no doubt that SPARC owners are in the minority.� My estimate > is > about 12 users and 6 developers. > > That's probably slightly low in terms of users. There are currently > about 6 active > users of Tribblix for SPARC (other than myself). (For reference, there > are 50-100 > active users of Tribblix on x86.) I suspect the number would increase > if illumos on > SPARC were more mature. That's probably true. It's still a small minority, of course. > That's partly because illumos already has SPARC support built in: > Peter only fixes things in illumos that are broken.� > > It's not as if there's any hardware development going on that affects > the > supported SPARC platforms. (Yes, it would be nice to support more > current > hardware, but what we have is a static target.) Much of the cleanup > work that > I'm (very very slowly) doing is to try and reduce the blast radius of > changes > from x86. Yes, I agree with that policy. Ordinary people have to buy SPARC machines on the used market. The largest SPARC machines are too expensive. The oldest ones are too slow to be useful. It's only the mid-range that we need to support. Even those are large, heavy, and power-hungry. > Full independance is a good way to cripple SPARC development.� OI > source archives, Makefiles, and package manifests are used to build > and publish OI SPARC packages, generally with no change.� It's OI > all > the way.� The only thing that will change is the list of components > to > build. > > I wouldn't have expected full independence. I would have thought you > want > your own fork of oi-userland, though, so you can make whatever local > changes > necessary. There won't be any local changes. At least, that is my intention. > One thing I'm finding is that the chance of something > building on > SPARC is going down over time, so I'm having to hold certain packages > on > SPARC at older revisions. So far, I haven't run into that problem with OI. My intention is to build OI packages without any changes. Most of the time, this plan is successful. -- -Gary Mills- -refurb- -Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada- ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 08:40:58PM +, Peter Tribble wrote: >On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 8:43 PM Gary Mills <[1]gary_mi...@fastmail.fm> >wrote: > > I have no doubt that SPARC owners are in the minority.� My estimate > is > about 12 users and 6 developers. > >That's probably slightly low in terms of users. There are currently >about 6 active >users of Tribblix for SPARC (other than myself). (For reference, there >are 50-100 >active users of Tribblix on x86.) I suspect the number would increase >if illumos on >SPARC were more mature. That's probably true. It's still a small minority, of course. > That's partly because illumos already has SPARC support built in: > Peter only fixes things in illumos that are broken.� > >It's not as if there's any hardware development going on that affects >the >supported SPARC platforms. (Yes, it would be nice to support more >current >hardware, but what we have is a static target.) Much of the cleanup >work that >I'm (very very slowly) doing is to try and reduce the blast radius of >changes >from x86. Yes, I agree with that policy. Ordinary people have to buy SPARC machines on the used market. The largest SPARC machines are too expensive. The oldest ones are too slow to be useful. It's only the mid-range that we need to support. Even those are large, heavy, and power-hungry. > Full independance is a good way to cripple SPARC development.� OI > source archives, Makefiles, and package manifests are used to build > and publish OI SPARC packages, generally with no change.� It's OI > all > the way.� The only thing that will change is the list of components > to > build. > >I wouldn't have expected full independence. I would have thought you >want >your own fork of oi-userland, though, so you can make whatever local >changes >necessary. There won't be any local changes. At least, that is my intention. >One thing I'm finding is that the chance of something >building on >SPARC is going down over time, so I'm having to hold certain packages >on >SPARC at older revisions. So far, I haven't run into that problem with OI. My intention is to build OI packages without any changes. Most of the time, this plan is successful. -- -Gary Mills--refurb--Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada- ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
On 11/22/19 09:43 PM, Gary Mills wrote: On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56:11PM +0100, Michal Nowak wrote: On 11/17/19 10:39 PM, Gary Mills wrote: I have a series of questions to ask the members of this mailing list. I have information to share with you as well. I already have partial answers to most of the questions, but I'd still like to hear from you. [...] There were 7 contributors to the OpenIndiana/oi-userland repo (which is the bulk of OpenIndiana development) with more than 10 commits for the 2019.10 release. I don't know how many OI users (be it long-term or accidental ones) are out there for the same period of time but I guess it's in low hundreds. I have no doubt that SPARC owners are in the minority. My estimate is about 12 users and 6 developers. Although I consider Gary's OI on SPARC an interesting achievement, I doubt there are enough potential users and developers to sustain any illumos SPARC distro of the same (slow) pace of hipster development. E.g. looking at SPARC-related work in illumos, it's only Peter who contributes significantly to this area (mostly by removing entirely obsolete platforms and by ensuring illumos actually builds - and that's, I am afraid, revealing). That's partly because illumos already has SPARC support built in: Peter only fixes things in illumos that are broken. I've submitted 14 bug reports, with patches, to the OI project. I'm aware that the patches need to be turned into PRs before OI developers will consider them. Most of the bug reports are not SPARC-specific. I did not need to submit any bug reports to the illumos project. That built-in support is for > 10 years old platforms, for me that is indicative about interest in this platform. Given that illumos SPARC distros were not closely following illumos development, years of testing stuff which gets added is missing for SPARC. Given the tiny resources OI project has and can offer, I wish OI and "OI"-for-SPARC were independent and related to each other in the same way OI currently relates to OmniOS CE and pkgsrc, that is by sharing knowledge, patches. Full independance is a good way to cripple SPARC development. OI source archives, Makefiles, and package manifests are used to build and publish OI SPARC packages, generally with no change. It's OI all the way. The only thing that will change is the list of components to build. The package names are the same. The package repository does not have to be hosted by OI, of course. I've had a few offers of a build server with jenkins. It will clone oi-userland periodically, and build packages from it. Only the binary packages will be different from the x86 version. The whole thing could be fully automated and will track OI pretty closely. We are not there yet, but we will be. Whatever the terminology on the projects relation, what I am really interested in is the OI amd64 development not being adversely affected. Although I am not excited about it, I don't mind SPARC changes in the OpenIndiana GitHub projects (Makefiles, patches, .p5m files, ...), provided that OI does not guarantee anything for SPARC, including: * we update a component which fails to build on SPARC, we don't retract, * updated component's SPARC patch fails to apply and it's too complicated to fix it, we remove it for the time being and re-apply when SPARC developers come up with a fixed patch, * we don't test that changes build the less work on SPARC I don't think that's a great experience for SPARC re-builders from OpenIndiana/oi-userland. Michal ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 09:16:16PM +0100, Andreas Wacknitz wrote: > Am 24.11.19 um 21:13 schrieb Gary Mills: > >> Here I have updated mozilla-nspr and mozilla-nss and included > >> variant-settings from https://www.illumos.org/issues/11925. > > I don't see any of the architure variants in the manifest > > system-library-mozilla-nss.p5m . It's possible that they are there > > but github is not displaying them for me. > https://github.com/OpenIndiana/oi-userland/blob/2b1f5c5dc8b72cddd1bb9a43252318eba3a3a010/components/library/mozilla-nss/system-library-mozilla-nss.p5m Yes, that's it. I'm using Firefox 52.9.0. I get a spinner that never stops at the bottom of the screen. I suppose that Github is using a browser feature that doesn't work in this version of Firefox. -- -Gary Mills--refurb--Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada- ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 8:43 PM Gary Mills wrote: > On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56:11PM +0100, Michal Nowak wrote: > > On 11/17/19 10:39 PM, Gary Mills wrote: > > > I have a series of questions to ask the members of this mailing list. > > > I have information to share with you as well. I already have partial > > > answers to most of the questions, but I'd still like to hear from you. > [...] > > There were 7 contributors to the OpenIndiana/oi-userland repo (which is > the > > bulk of OpenIndiana development) with more than 10 commits for the > 2019.10 > > release. I don't know how many OI users (be it long-term or accidental > ones) > > are out there for the same period of time but I guess it's in low > hundreds. > > I have no doubt that SPARC owners are in the minority. My estimate is > about 12 users and 6 developers. > That's probably slightly low in terms of users. There are currently about 6 active users of Tribblix for SPARC (other than myself). (For reference, there are 50-100 active users of Tribblix on x86.) I suspect the number would increase if illumos on SPARC were more mature. > > Although I consider Gary's OI on SPARC an interesting achievement, I > doubt > > there are enough potential users and developers to sustain any illumos > SPARC > > distro of the same (slow) pace of hipster development. E.g. looking at > > SPARC-related work in illumos, it's only Peter who contributes > significantly > > to this area (mostly by removing entirely obsolete platforms and by > ensuring > > illumos actually builds - and that's, I am afraid, revealing). > > That's partly because illumos already has SPARC support built in: > Peter only fixes things in illumos that are broken. It's not as if there's any hardware development going on that affects the supported SPARC platforms. (Yes, it would be nice to support more current hardware, but what we have is a static target.) Much of the cleanup work that I'm (very very slowly) doing is to try and reduce the blast radius of changes from x86. > I've submitted 14 > bug reports, with patches, to the OI project. I'm aware that the > patches need to be turned into PRs before OI developers will consider > them. Most of the bug reports are not SPARC-specific. I did not need > to submit any bug reports to the illumos project. > > > Given the tiny resources OI project has and can offer, I wish OI and > > "OI"-for-SPARC were independent and related to each other in the same > way OI > > currently relates to OmniOS CE and pkgsrc, that is by sharing knowledge, > > patches. > > Full independance is a good way to cripple SPARC development. OI > source archives, Makefiles, and package manifests are used to build > and publish OI SPARC packages, generally with no change. It's OI all > the way. The only thing that will change is the list of components to > build. > I wouldn't have expected full independence. I would have thought you want your own fork of oi-userland, though, so you can make whatever local changes necessary. One thing I'm finding is that the chance of something building on SPARC is going down over time, so I'm having to hold certain packages on SPARC at older revisions. -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
Am 24.11.19 um 21:13 schrieb Gary Mills: > On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 03:55:11PM +0100, Andreas Wacknitz wrote: >> I have created another PR related to Gary's bug reports: >> https://github.com/OpenIndiana/oi-userland/pull/5405 >> >> Here I have updated mozilla-nspr and mozilla-nss and included >> variant-settings from https://www.illumos.org/issues/11925. > I don't see any of the architure variants in the manifest > system-library-mozilla-nss.p5m . It's possible that they are there > but github is not displaying them for me. https://github.com/OpenIndiana/oi-userland/blob/2b1f5c5dc8b72cddd1bb9a43252318eba3a3a010/components/library/mozilla-nss/system-library-mozilla-nss.p5m > >> I am not sure whether these fixes all problems for SPARC, though. > ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 03:55:11PM +0100, Andreas Wacknitz wrote: > > I have created another PR related to Gary's bug reports: > https://github.com/OpenIndiana/oi-userland/pull/5405 > > Here I have updated mozilla-nspr and mozilla-nss and included > variant-settings from https://www.illumos.org/issues/11925. I don't see any of the architure variants in the manifest system-library-mozilla-nss.p5m . It's possible that they are there but github is not displaying them for me. > I am not sure whether these fixes all problems for SPARC, though. -- -Gary Mills--refurb--Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada- ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
Hi all, I have just created the first PR from Gary's bug reports: https://github.com/OpenIndiana/oi-userland/pull/5404 Regards Andreas ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 11:34:10AM +0100, Olaf Bohlen wrote: > Gary Mills writes: > > > What we really need right now is remote access to the package > > repository. I believe that pkg.depotd will do that, but I've never > > tried it. > > Oh, I already serve your repo (internally) with pkg.depotd, I can > set up a public repo, but I'd prefer to have it on the "official" > mirrors. What is the meaning of official? The OI project is not going to label something official, as far as I can tell. -- -Gary Mills--refurb--Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada- ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56:11PM +0100, Michal Nowak wrote: > On 11/17/19 10:39 PM, Gary Mills wrote: > > I have a series of questions to ask the members of this mailing list. > > I have information to share with you as well. I already have partial > > answers to most of the questions, but I'd still like to hear from you. [...] > There were 7 contributors to the OpenIndiana/oi-userland repo (which is the > bulk of OpenIndiana development) with more than 10 commits for the 2019.10 > release. I don't know how many OI users (be it long-term or accidental ones) > are out there for the same period of time but I guess it's in low hundreds. I have no doubt that SPARC owners are in the minority. My estimate is about 12 users and 6 developers. > Although I consider Gary's OI on SPARC an interesting achievement, I doubt > there are enough potential users and developers to sustain any illumos SPARC > distro of the same (slow) pace of hipster development. E.g. looking at > SPARC-related work in illumos, it's only Peter who contributes significantly > to this area (mostly by removing entirely obsolete platforms and by ensuring > illumos actually builds - and that's, I am afraid, revealing). That's partly because illumos already has SPARC support built in: Peter only fixes things in illumos that are broken. I've submitted 14 bug reports, with patches, to the OI project. I'm aware that the patches need to be turned into PRs before OI developers will consider them. Most of the bug reports are not SPARC-specific. I did not need to submit any bug reports to the illumos project. > Given the tiny resources OI project has and can offer, I wish OI and > "OI"-for-SPARC were independent and related to each other in the same way OI > currently relates to OmniOS CE and pkgsrc, that is by sharing knowledge, > patches. Full independance is a good way to cripple SPARC development. OI source archives, Makefiles, and package manifests are used to build and publish OI SPARC packages, generally with no change. It's OI all the way. The only thing that will change is the list of components to build. The package names are the same. The package repository does not have to be hosted by OI, of course. I've had a few offers of a build server with jenkins. It will clone oi-userland periodically, and build packages from it. Only the binary packages will be different from the x86 version. The whole thing could be fully automated and will track OI pretty closely. We are not there yet, but we will be. -- -Gary Mills--refurb--Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada- ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
Olaf Bohlen writes: > Gary Mills writes: > > > What we really need right now is remote access to the package > > repository. I believe that pkg.depotd will do that, but I've never > > tried it. > > Oh, I already serve your repo (internally) with pkg.depotd, I can > set up a public repo, but I'd prefer to have it on the "official" > mirrors. Same here. :-) Of course I haven't actually *installed* something off it yet... Regards -- Volker -- Volker A. BrandtConsulting and Support for Solaris-based Systems Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/ Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim, GERMANYEmail: v...@bb-c.de Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513 Schuhgröße: 46 Geschäftsführer: Rainer J.H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt "When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead" ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
Gary Mills writes: > What we really need right now is remote access to the package > repository. I believe that pkg.depotd will do that, but I've never > tried it. Oh, I already serve your repo (internally) with pkg.depotd, I can set up a public repo, but I'd prefer to have it on the "official" mirrors. Regards, -- ~ Olaf Bohlen - olboh...@eenfach.de |~~ Het /| \Bruine ___/_|___\ Leven \__n/# DGCN2 ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 01:14:26PM +0100, Olaf Bohlen wrote: > Alexander Pyhalov via oi-dev writes: > > > So, I see the following 'ideal' world. > > 1) There's a set of OI/SPARC build zones, available to OI developers. > > I can provide multiple build zones on a seperate LDOM. I need to > know how many zones are needed and how much disk-space they need. One might be sufficient. > > 4) Preferably, we have means to build each PR on SPARC with little effort. > > I also have a Jenkins instance running on my sparc, and I can also > install Jenkins in the dev zones. That and a build zone would automate the build process. However, we are not quite ready for that. I'd like to build and publish a few more packages first. I'd also like to produce another ISO. I need a few more successful or unsuccessful install reports before I do that. > > 1) We need SPARC zone with jenkins, which automatically builds some subset > > of packages, which are known to be working on SPARC. > > 2) I can create a oi/sparc branch on OI repo for current SPARC work, which > > will periodically be merged to oi/hipster. > > But without 1) I thinks further talk is useless. [...] > I'm happy to contribute in my spare time, I'd prefer that Gary > takes the role to tell me/us what to do. It looks as if I'll be the coordinator. What we really need right now is remote access to the package repository. I believe that pkg.depotd will do that, but I've never tried it. -- -Gary Mills--refurb--Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada- ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
Alexander Pyhalov via oi-dev writes: Hi, > So, I see the following 'ideal' world. > 1) There's a set of OI/SPARC build zones, available to OI developers. I can provide multiple build zones on a seperate LDOM. I need to know how many zones are needed and how much disk-space they need. > 4) Preferably, we have means to build each PR on SPARC with little effort. I also have a Jenkins instance running on my sparc, and I can also install Jenkins in the dev zones. > 1) We need SPARC zone with jenkins, which automatically builds some subset of > packages, which are known to be working on SPARC. > 2) I can create a oi/sparc branch on OI repo for current SPARC work, which > will periodically be merged to oi/hipster. > But without 1) I thinks further talk is useless. > > P.S. Now I have less and less free time which I can devote to OI. I > will not be able to spend a lot of time on OI/SPARC (and would prefer > to spend it on OI/x64 if there's choice ;) ). I'm happy to contribute in my spare time, I'd prefer that Gary takes the role to tell me/us what to do. Regards, -- ~ Olaf Bohlen - olboh...@eenfach.de |~~ Het /| \Bruine ___/_|___\ Leven \__n/# DGCN2 ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
On 11/18/19 8:44 AM, ken mays via oi-dev wrote: 3. Packages built on your distro working elsewhere (i.e. DilOS, Tribblix, OpenSXCE, S11.x SPARC) and/or pre-existing SPARC packages working on your distro. Solaris 11.x & illumos are not 100% binary compatible with each other. They maintain backwards compatibility with their common Solaris 10 heritage (but only for Solaris 10 versions from before 2010, not necessarily with later additions to Solaris 10 after that), but since the Solaris/illumos split each has added their own set of extensions, and use of those may not work on the other. -alan- ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
Gary, First of all, congratulations on getting this far! I know from experience that it's a non-trivial exercise :-( On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 9:39 PM Gary Mills wrote: > I have a series of questions to ask the members of this mailing list. > I have information to share with you as well. I already have partial > answers to most of the questions, but I'd still like to hear from you. > > First of all, how much interest do you have in OI on SPARC? My > interest is as a developer and tester. What is your interest? > I'd like to determine the size of the audience. > My interest is indirect; it's good to see that the illumos on SPARC ecosystem has more participants. > How should I contribute to OI on SPARC? I have plans to build more > packages, and to do so with fewer changes to the OI source. I also > have plans to update the distribution from the current 2018 to 2019 or > 2020. Does this sound reasonable to you? > I think you need to decide what the bounds are (in terms of exactly what packages you're going to include - I know that there's a reasonable number of packages I ignore because they are broken or not interesting, a lot of the desktop stuff seems less than worthwhile for example, and of course there's a whole pile of stuff like Go and Node that's never going to work). Keeping up to date is a good idea. From experience, if you start to drift, it's a devil to catch up. > How should you contribute to OI on SPARC? I've filed bug reports > for many of the changes I've made. They can be seen at: > > https://www.illumos.org/projects/openindiana/issues > > I've attached patches to each bug report, but in order for these > patches to be integrated into the OI source, the patches need to be > turned into PRs for github. They also need to be tested on x86 to > make sure they don't accidentally change anything there. Can you help > with any of this? Can you build packages for SPARC from OI source? > Can you help in any other way? > Generally I'm building a lot of stuff on both x86 and SPARC. If you come across problems, then I'm happy to help. (Although my normal response to anything that doesn't get along is to excise it for the time being and find something more cooperative to work on.) > What type of repository do you prefer? Should it be file-based, as it > is now, or should it be remote, as for OI x86? The repository will > only get larger, as people build more packages and publish them. Will > you download such a large file? I don't know of any way to merge > repositories, so there must be only one. > The one-file repo is fine for a single shot release, for people who only have one system. (Although I imagine that people who have multiple SPARC systems are thin on the ground, sadly.) But as soon as you start considering updates, the download a massive blob model is no longer viable. And I think you should keep the sparc repository (if any) completely separate from the x86 repo the project runs. You'll likely be looking at completely different needs and policies. > Finally, who should coordinate OI on SPARC? Should this be done by > the OI project, or should it be done separately? You're the one doing the work, so that's you. Having the project involved is a drag on their time and a blocker on yours; keeping it as loosely coupled as possible is best. (This is a general theme; generally the x86 and SPARC sides will want to avoid treading on each other's toes. And I occasionally find myself tripping over myself on Tribblix, where I'm both!) > Keep in mind that OI > SPARC uses OI source. Most of it builds and publishes with no > changes. When changes are necessary, my plan has been to introduce > them with no harm to x86 packages built from the same source. Indeed, > some of the changes fix bugs in the corresponding x86 packages. Also > keep in mind that IPS is designed to handle multiple architectures, > making it easy to integrate SPARC with x86. In fact, this is already > done for illumos. > -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
Hi Gary, Well, good answers abound! As you've put much effort into keeping SPARC machines alive through the OpenIndiana project, let us reviewa long arm supportable approach to this issue: 1. Maintain your bug reports through OI bug tracker.and tag new/old SPARC-related issues with 'sparc'. I see five tickets here: Issues - OpenIndiana Distribution - illumos | | | | Issues - OpenIndiana Distribution - illumos Redmine | | | 2. Define the SPARC machines you are supporting through the distro project. Noted here that past supporters have T1000 through T5440 servers as well as a few Blade or Ultra 25/45 workstations that were beinghosted as build repos. Will you continually support the SPARC workstations as well as modern UltraSPARC T1/T2 servers? 3. Packages built on your distro working elsewhere (i.e. DilOS, Tribblix, OpenSXCE, S11.x SPARC) and/or pre-existing SPARC packagesworking on your distro. Just a start ~ Ken On Sunday, November 17, 2019, 2:37:16 PM PST, Gary Mills wrote: I have a series of questions to ask the members of this mailing list. I have information to share with you as well. I already have partial answers to most of the questions, but I'd still like to hear from you. First of all, how much interest do you have in OI on SPARC? My interest is as a developer and tester. What is your interest? I'd like to determine the size of the audience. How should I contribute to OI on SPARC? I have plans to build more packages, and to do so with fewer changes to the OI source. I also have plans to update the distribution from the current 2018 to 2019 or 2020. Does this sound reasonable to you? How should you contribute to OI on SPARC? I've filed bug reports for many of the changes I've made. They can be seen at: https://www.illumos.org/projects/openindiana/issues I've attached patches to each bug report, but in order for these patches to be integrated into the OI source, the patches need to be turned into PRs for github. They also need to be tested on x86 to make sure they don't accidentally change anything there. Can you help with any of this? Can you build packages for SPARC from OI source? Can you help in any other way? What type of repository do you prefer? Should it be file-based, as it is now, or should it be remote, as for OI x86? The repository will only get larger, as people build more packages and publish them. Will you download such a large file? I don't know of any way to merge repositories, so there must be only one. Finally, who should coordinate OI on SPARC? Should this be done by the OI project, or should it be done separately? Keep in mind that OI SPARC uses OI source. Most of it builds and publishes with no changes. When changes are necessary, my plan has been to introduce them with no harm to x86 packages built from the same source. Indeed, some of the changes fix bugs in the corresponding x86 packages. Also keep in mind that IPS is designed to handle multiple architectures, making it easy to integrate SPARC with x86. In fact, this is already done for illumos. -- -Gary Mills- -refurb- -Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada- ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
Hi, Gary. От: Gary Mills Отправлено: 18 ноября 2019 г. 0:39 Кому: oi-dev@openindiana.org Тема: [oi-dev] Where should SPARC go? > First of all, how much interest do you have in OI on SPARC? My interest is as a developer and tester. What is your interest? I'd like to determine the size of the audience. I'm not sure about ways of collaboration which would be beneficial to both x86 and SPARC build. The most important question for me is testing SPARC build. Let's say, I update component A. It has some SPARC-specific patches. They don't apply. What should I do? Drop them and hope someone interested in SPARC fixes it? I don't think it'll suit you. So, first of all we need some build host, where changes could be checked. At least that they build. What if they build, but doesn't work? I have to spend some time to find out, what's wrong with this package on SPARC. This doesn't suit me ;) So, I see the following 'ideal' world. 1) There's a set of OI/SPARC build zones, available to OI developers. 2) There's a branch (or clone) of oi-userland, which is 'current OI SPARC head' 3) These repositories/branches are merged when changes are ready. 4) Preferably, we have means to build each PR on SPARC with little effort. 5) In ideal world, both SPARC/x64 bits would live in one repository, but this requires merging packages built for separate architectures. I don't expect this to happen (soon?). But at least we need some 'current-state-of-the-art' SPARC repository. I suppose we can host it on OI pkg server, if 1-3 are satisfied. What about current steps which will at least partially lead us to 'ideal' world. 1) We need SPARC zone with jenkins, which automatically builds some subset of packages, which are known to be working on SPARC. 2) I can create a oi/sparc branch on OI repo for current SPARC work, which will periodically be merged to oi/hipster. But without 1) I thinks further talk is useless. P.S. Now I have less and less free time which I can devote to OI. I will not be able to spend a lot of time on OI/SPARC (and would prefer to spend it on OI/x64 if there's choice ;) ). >>> How should I contribute to OI on SPARC? I have plans to build more packages, and to do so with fewer changes to the OI source. I also have plans to update the distribution from the current 2018 to 2019 or 2020. Does this sound reasonable to you? How should you contribute to OI on SPARC? I've filed bug reports for many of the changes I've made. They can be seen at: https://www.illumos.org/projects/openindiana/issues I've attached patches to each bug report, but in order for these patches to be integrated into the OI source, the patches need to be turned into PRs for github. They also need to be tested on x86 to make sure they don't accidentally change anything there. Can you help with any of this? Can you build packages for SPARC from OI source? Can you help in any other way? What type of repository do you prefer? Should it be file-based, as it is now, or should it be remote, as for OI x86? The repository will only get larger, as people build more packages and publish them. Will you download such a large file? I don't know of any way to merge repositories, so there must be only one. Finally, who should coordinate OI on SPARC? Should this be done by the OI project, or should it be done separately? Keep in mind that OI SPARC uses OI source. Most of it builds and publishes with no changes. When changes are necessary, my plan has been to introduce them with no harm to x86 packages built from the same source. Indeed, some of the changes fix bugs in the corresponding x86 packages. Also keep in mind that IPS is designed to handle multiple architectures, making it easy to integrate SPARC with x86. In fact, this is already done for illumos. -- -Gary Mills--refurb--Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada- ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
[oi-dev] Where should SPARC go?
I have a series of questions to ask the members of this mailing list. I have information to share with you as well. I already have partial answers to most of the questions, but I'd still like to hear from you. First of all, how much interest do you have in OI on SPARC? My interest is as a developer and tester. What is your interest? I'd like to determine the size of the audience. How should I contribute to OI on SPARC? I have plans to build more packages, and to do so with fewer changes to the OI source. I also have plans to update the distribution from the current 2018 to 2019 or 2020. Does this sound reasonable to you? How should you contribute to OI on SPARC? I've filed bug reports for many of the changes I've made. They can be seen at: https://www.illumos.org/projects/openindiana/issues I've attached patches to each bug report, but in order for these patches to be integrated into the OI source, the patches need to be turned into PRs for github. They also need to be tested on x86 to make sure they don't accidentally change anything there. Can you help with any of this? Can you build packages for SPARC from OI source? Can you help in any other way? What type of repository do you prefer? Should it be file-based, as it is now, or should it be remote, as for OI x86? The repository will only get larger, as people build more packages and publish them. Will you download such a large file? I don't know of any way to merge repositories, so there must be only one. Finally, who should coordinate OI on SPARC? Should this be done by the OI project, or should it be done separately? Keep in mind that OI SPARC uses OI source. Most of it builds and publishes with no changes. When changes are necessary, my plan has been to introduce them with no harm to x86 packages built from the same source. Indeed, some of the changes fix bugs in the corresponding x86 packages. Also keep in mind that IPS is designed to handle multiple architectures, making it easy to integrate SPARC with x86. In fact, this is already done for illumos. -- -Gary Mills--refurb--Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada- ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
