Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] To the OmniOS, OI and SmartOS community

2017-05-19 Thread bscuk2 

Hello,

My comment was simply to frame the direction of travel in todays 
changing environment. When the question is considered everyone must have a


Common shared vision

Road map to acheive that

Focus upon where that road map is

I am very happy if this common relationship can be agreed . My point is 
that a frame of reference is very important to understand the people of 
their relationships so a common direction can be forged.


Peter


On 18/05/2017 20:55, Guenther Ernst Alka wrote:

hello Peter

Thank you for your comment.
You have a better insight view into communities and distributions than I.
My view is mostly a storage related user view and from that pure Illumos
features are ok. A GUI or LX zones are really nice but not essential 
and no one

would hinder to add LX to OI or Mate to OmniOS.

I mainly want to trust a distribution to survive and to care about bugs.
Currently we have a OmniOS LTS and the next one is due 2019.
Until then we need a OmniOS to maintain the current LTS.

But the question on what the next OmniOS is based onto must be
answered now, not in two years or when work is mostly done .
The future of OmniOS as a stable free Illumos is insecure enough.

best regards

Gea


Am 18.05.2017 um 20:21 schrieb Peter Tribble:

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 10:53 AM, Guenther Alka  wrote:

There are many users who want exact these OmniOS features not 
available in

OI.
The discussion now is if such an effort should be based on the current
OmniOS bloody
or can be based on a common development effort together with the OI
community.

I want the discussion going into a common future as I fear that a new
separate OmniOS community effort will only weaken Illumos/OI and cannot
survive in the long term.  My hope is that a stronger OI/OmniOS is the
outcome instead where OmniOS is a stable add-on feature for OI 
snapshots.



I don't think that's viable, at least in the short term. OmniOS has a
completely different ethos to OI, and there's a reason people chose
one distro or the other.

Attempting to force both requirements out of a single distro will likely
mean that you end up satisfying neither set of users, while making it
much harder for maintainers who have to support both sets of users.

Longer term is a slightly different picture. It's unlikely that OmniOS
will continue to diverge from illumos, and I would like to see the
features backported into illumos proper. Once that's done it makes
more sense to think about sharing, because at least you then have
a common illumos codebase.



Am 18.05.2017 um 11:24 schrieb Alexander Pyhalov:


On 05/18/17 12:15 PM, Guenther Alka wrote:


News about OmniOS and Discuss about free Illumos distributions and
future OmniOS/OI options

I have started a thread in a popular forum with a strong ZFS focus to
discuss this
also with regular users outside the maillists.

https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/omnios-151
022-long-term-stable.14367/page-2


Hi.
So far, as I understand, OmniOS developers choose to support existing
infrastructure and build systems and there's no development on 
merging OI
and OmniOS code base. Without OmniOS developers interested in this, 
this

talk is useless.



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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] To the OmniOS, OI and SmartOS community

2017-05-18 Thread Guenther Ernst Alka 

hello Peter

Thank you for your comment.
You have a better insight view into communities and distributions than I.
My view is mostly a storage related user view and from that pure Illumos
features are ok. A GUI or LX zones are really nice but not essential and 
no one

would hinder to add LX to OI or Mate to OmniOS.

I mainly want to trust a distribution to survive and to care about bugs.
Currently we have a OmniOS LTS and the next one is due 2019.
Until then we need a OmniOS to maintain the current LTS.

But the question on what the next OmniOS is based onto must be
answered now, not in two years or when work is mostly done .
The future of OmniOS as a stable free Illumos is insecure enough.

best regards

Gea


Am 18.05.2017 um 20:21 schrieb Peter Tribble:

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 10:53 AM, Guenther Alka  wrote:


There are many users who want exact these OmniOS features not available in
OI.
The discussion now is if such an effort should be based on the current
OmniOS bloody
or can be based on a common development effort together with the OI
community.

I want the discussion going into a common future as I fear that a new
separate OmniOS community effort will only weaken Illumos/OI and cannot
survive in the long term.  My hope is that a stronger OI/OmniOS is the
outcome instead where OmniOS is a stable add-on feature for OI snapshots.


I don't think that's viable, at least in the short term. OmniOS has a
completely different ethos to OI, and there's a reason people chose
one distro or the other.

Attempting to force both requirements out of a single distro will likely
mean that you end up satisfying neither set of users, while making it
much harder for maintainers who have to support both sets of users.

Longer term is a slightly different picture. It's unlikely that OmniOS
will continue to diverge from illumos, and I would like to see the
features backported into illumos proper. Once that's done it makes
more sense to think about sharing, because at least you then have
a common illumos codebase.



Am 18.05.2017 um 11:24 schrieb Alexander Pyhalov:


On 05/18/17 12:15 PM, Guenther Alka wrote:


News about OmniOS and Discuss about free Illumos distributions and
future OmniOS/OI options

I have started a thread in a popular forum with a strong ZFS focus to
discuss this
also with regular users outside the maillists.

https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/omnios-151
022-long-term-stable.14367/page-2


Hi.
So far, as I understand, OmniOS developers choose to support existing
infrastructure and build systems and there's no development on merging OI
and OmniOS code base. Without OmniOS developers interested in this, this
talk is useless.



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--

Guenther Ernst Alka, Dipl.-Ing. (FH)
Rektor-Klaus Str.71
73525 Schwäbisch Gmünd

g...@napp-it.org


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] To the OmniOS, OI and SmartOS community

2017-05-18 Thread Günther Alka 

hello Till

My napp-it storage appliance add-on is currently running and supported 
on OmniOS, OpenIndiana Hipster, Solaris and partly ZoL. I would be very 
glad to add SmartOS but this would require a mechanism to  install 
storage services to global zone, load settings like users or (SMB) 
groups on powerup from datapool and save them on demand to make them 
persistent.


If you ask what I and many users need or want from a free distribution 
compared to OpenIndiana, the answer is a Illumos distribution with 
stables and long term stables, each based on its own repository with 
backported security fixes on the long term stable. This allows to 
evaluate a release and use it with the option to add security or 
bugfixes without jumping to a newer release with newer features and 
possible incompatibilities or new bugs. This is what OmniOS is and for 
me this is what I and many users want. My hope is that this will be 
based on OI snapshots in future as I do not believe that a second fully 
independent community backed Illumos distribution can survice on the 
long run. It will only weaken Illumos in case of a failure and OI in the 
meantime.


SmartOS with a solid commercial background and one additional community 
based Illumos alternative is what I hope for. And the last can only mean 
OpenIndiana + stable add-on.


best regards


Gea

Am 18.05.2017 um 18:31 schrieb Till Wegmüller:

Hello Guenther

I would pretty much suggest using OpenIndiana to develop solutions 
like napp-it on top of.


Main reason being that appart from certain vlan taging and lx zone 
features we have all the technical bells ans whistels that OmniOs and 
SmartOS have. We just have some different tools. We use the ones 
Solaris used and don't have high level wrappers like vmadm.



If you want to use it to base your napp-it I definately would support 
you with what I know about the distribution. I could tell you about 
the Image creation system and other stuff. And I'm sure that others 
would help out with insights aswell.


What would you need from a Distribution to build your Application on 
top? Would be interesting to know.


---
Greetings
Till

On 15.05.2017 13:58, Guenther Alka wrote:

*Its time to consider pla**n**B/C ??*
to: omnios-discuss, openindiana-discuss, smartos-discuss

The announcement of OmniTi to cancel OmniOS from now to then is a 
real disaster not only for OmniOS users but for the whole Illumos 
platform. Many users who want a free Solaris based OS especially in 
production environments selected OmniOS as their preferred Illumos 
platform mainly with use cases storage and general server applications.


The reasons:*OmniOS=**Up to date Illumos*
+ commercial support option (although way too expensive)
+ own developments like LX zones integration from SmartOS or drivers
+ stables/long term stables with very experienced full time staff 
(thanks to Dan and Dale again)


As OmniTi has released a new stable 151022, I/we have some time maybe 
to the end of the year unless OmniOS is out of sync with Illumos in a 
non tolerable amount.  Bugfixes of serious problems may be the case 
until then (hope so).


What are the/my options


*Plan A*
Hope for a continuation of OmniOS as a well maintained 
community/commercial project with further development, ongoing 
stables and bugfixes optionally with some paid contributions under 
the umbrella of a firm or at least with some experienced members that 
were already resonsible for OmniOS or an Illumos distribution and 
that can be trusted for next years.


While I hope for this, I doubt that this is a serious option. I 
switched from OpenIndiana to OmniOS three years ago as the OI 
community was too weak and development nearly stalled at that time. I 
am not interested in a new weak OmniOS community for a distribution 
that should be used as a production system. The OmniOS community will 
be propably too small forever as we already have the Illumos 
community project OpenIndiana nearly identical to OmniOS from 
distribution, features and use cases. And a very important thing: The 
brand OmniOS has already a very bad name as a dead/failed project in 
the press mostly affecting Illumos as well.



*Plan B*
OpenIndiana is a quite established community project for an up to 
date Illumos distribution. I would say its nearly identical to OmniOS 
beside the missing LX improvements from OmniOS but with an additional 
GUI option. I hope to see LX zones upstreamed to Illumos. OpenIndiana 
currently offers a rolling development of newest Illumos bits with 
snapshots every 6 months but without an additional stable repository 
with backported security fixes. Every update give you the newest 
Illumos fixes and features but also the newest bugs (ongoing dev, 
unstable).


If OmniOS has to become a community project, I undoubtly would prefer 
a merge of the two distributions up from next releases. OpenIndiana 
with a stable repo for every snapshot and with a repo as development 
path would give me

Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] To the OmniOS, OI and SmartOS community

2017-05-18 Thread Peter Tribble 
On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 10:53 AM, Guenther Alka  wrote:

>
> There are many users who want exact these OmniOS features not available in
> OI.
> The discussion now is if such an effort should be based on the current
> OmniOS bloody
> or can be based on a common development effort together with the OI
> community.
>
> I want the discussion going into a common future as I fear that a new
> separate OmniOS community effort will only weaken Illumos/OI and cannot
> survive in the long term.  My hope is that a stronger OI/OmniOS is the
> outcome instead where OmniOS is a stable add-on feature for OI snapshots.
>

I don't think that's viable, at least in the short term. OmniOS has a
completely different ethos to OI, and there's a reason people chose
one distro or the other.

Attempting to force both requirements out of a single distro will likely
mean that you end up satisfying neither set of users, while making it
much harder for maintainers who have to support both sets of users.

Longer term is a slightly different picture. It's unlikely that OmniOS
will continue to diverge from illumos, and I would like to see the
features backported into illumos proper. Once that's done it makes
more sense to think about sharing, because at least you then have
a common illumos codebase.


> Am 18.05.2017 um 11:24 schrieb Alexander Pyhalov:
>
>> On 05/18/17 12:15 PM, Guenther Alka wrote:
>>
>>> News about OmniOS and Discuss about free Illumos distributions and
>>> future OmniOS/OI options
>>>
>>> I have started a thread in a popular forum with a strong ZFS focus to
>>> discuss this
>>> also with regular users outside the maillists.
>>>
>>> https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/omnios-151
>>> 022-long-term-stable.14367/page-2
>>>
>>
>> Hi.
>> So far, as I understand, OmniOS developers choose to support existing
>> infrastructure and build systems and there's no development on merging OI
>> and OmniOS code base. Without OmniOS developers interested in this, this
>> talk is useless.
>>
>
>
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>



-- 
-Peter Tribble
http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] To the OmniOS, OI and SmartOS community

2017-05-18 Thread Till Wegmüller 

Hello Guenther

I would pretty much suggest using OpenIndiana to develop solutions like 
napp-it on top of.


Main reason being that appart from certain vlan taging and lx zone 
features we have all the technical bells ans whistels that OmniOs and 
SmartOS have. We just have some different tools. We use the ones Solaris 
used and don't have high level wrappers like vmadm.



If you want to use it to base your napp-it I definately would support 
you with what I know about the distribution. I could tell you about the 
Image creation system and other stuff. And I'm sure that others would 
help out with insights aswell.


What would you need from a Distribution to build your Application on 
top? Would be interesting to know.


---
Greetings
Till

On 15.05.2017 13:58, Guenther Alka wrote:

*Its time to consider pla**n**B/C ??*
to: omnios-discuss, openindiana-discuss, smartos-discuss

The announcement of OmniTi to cancel OmniOS from now to then is a real 
disaster not only for OmniOS users but for the whole Illumos platform. 
Many users who want a free Solaris based OS especially in production 
environments selected OmniOS as their preferred Illumos platform mainly 
with use cases storage and general server applications.


The reasons:*OmniOS=**Up to date Illumos*
+ commercial support option (although way too expensive)
+ own developments like LX zones integration from SmartOS or drivers
+ stables/long term stables with very experienced full time staff 
(thanks to Dan and Dale again)


As OmniTi has released a new stable 151022, I/we have some time maybe to 
the end of the year unless OmniOS is out of sync with Illumos in a non 
tolerable amount.  Bugfixes of serious problems may be the case until 
then (hope so).


What are the/my options


*Plan A*
Hope for a continuation of OmniOS as a well maintained 
community/commercial project with further development, ongoing stables 
and bugfixes optionally with some paid contributions under the umbrella 
of a firm or at least with some experienced members that were already 
resonsible for OmniOS or an Illumos distribution and that can be trusted 
for next years.


While I hope for this, I doubt that this is a serious option. I switched 
from OpenIndiana to OmniOS three years ago as the OI community was too 
weak and development nearly stalled at that time. I am not interested in 
a new weak OmniOS community for a distribution that should be used as a 
production system. The OmniOS community will be propably too small 
forever as we already have the Illumos community project OpenIndiana 
nearly identical to OmniOS from distribution, features and use cases. 
And a very important thing: The brand OmniOS has already a very bad name 
as a dead/failed project in the press mostly affecting Illumos as well.



*Plan B*
OpenIndiana is a quite established community project for an up to date 
Illumos distribution. I would say its nearly identical to OmniOS beside 
the missing LX improvements from OmniOS but with an additional GUI 
option. I hope to see LX zones upstreamed to Illumos. OpenIndiana 
currently offers a rolling development of newest Illumos bits with 
snapshots every 6 months but without an additional stable repository 
with backported security fixes. Every update give you the newest Illumos 
fixes and features but also the newest bugs (ongoing dev, unstable).


If OmniOS has to become a community project, I undoubtly would prefer a 
merge of the two distributions up from next releases. OpenIndiana with a 
stable repo for every snapshot and with a repo as development path would 
give me what was the main advantage of OmniOS beside commercial support. 
Access to such a stable repo optionally under an OmniOS brand may be 
even a paid (if affordable) option. Such a merge would strengthen 
Illumos at first place but also free OpenSource distributions like 
OmniOS and OpenIndiana.



*Plan C*
There is another free Illumos distribution with an enterprise background 
suited for datacenter use: SmartOS. It even adds unique Cloud and 
virtualisation features like KVM, Solaris zones, Linux zones and Docker 
support. As it is running from RAM with everything important on a 
datapool it is a very stable/ easy recoverable option but it lacks some 
features in the global zone that are required for a storage server.  An 
additional plus is the pkgin repo with lots of supported long term 
stable services.


Using SmartOS would require a mechanism to allow storage services like 
SSH, Crossbow, iSCSI, NFS and SMB on the global zone with an option to 
save/restore settings from a datapool to be persistent. To be honest, a 
SmartOS that is capable to act as a storage appliance would be my dream 
option, at least as an additional option. This would require that 
SmartOS is not actively hindering this or preferable is helping to 
implement a save/restore option for global zone settings



*Discuss*
But whatever option is coming, end the Illumos fragmentation for the 
sake of one strong

Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] To the OmniOS, OI and SmartOS community

2017-05-18 Thread Alexander Pyhalov 

On 05/18/17 12:15 PM, Guenther Alka wrote:

News about OmniOS and Discuss about free Illumos distributions and
future OmniOS/OI options

I have started a thread in a popular forum with a strong ZFS focus to
discuss this
also with regular users outside the maillists.

https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/omnios-151022-long-term-stable.14367/page-2


Hi.
So far, as I understand, OmniOS developers choose to support existing 
infrastructure and build systems and there's no development on merging 
OI and OmniOS code base. Without OmniOS developers interested in this, 
this talk is useless.

--
Best regards,
Alexander Pyhalov,
system administrator of Southern Federal University IT department

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] To the OmniOS, OI and SmartOS community

2017-05-18 Thread Guenther Alka 
News about OmniOS and Discuss about free Illumos distributions and 
future OmniOS/OI options


I have started a thread in a popular forum with a strong ZFS focus to 
discuss this

also with regular users outside the maillists.

https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/omnios-151022-long-term-stable.14367/page-2

I would like to hear your comments about my opinions, good, bad, 
illusional or whatever


Gea
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