Re: Off topic: named parameters
On 14.05.2015 23:53, Tom Eugelink wrote: But I did expect someone to respond on the handing in of the JEP, mainly based on quotes like this: /We use the current JEP Process to collect, review, sort, and evaluate proposals for enhancements to the JDK. The ongoing result of this process is the JDK Roadmap, a collection of feature ideas and other proposals for consideration by JDK Release Projects and related efforts./ But after your explanation and rereading the JEP 1 and 2 it seems real life is different from the mental image that this quote puts in my head. Yeah, JEPs != feature wishlists. General RFEs should go to bugs.java.com. If you read a bit further at http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~mr/jep/jep-2.0-02.html you'll notice that is says Any Committer to a Project may propose to target a Feature JEP to a release of that Project after documenting a realistic engineering plan. cheers, dalibor topic -- http://www.oracle.com Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager Phone: +494089091214 tel:+494089091214 | Mobile: +491737185961 tel:+491737185961 Oracle | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg http://www.oracle.com/commitment Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
Re: Off topic: named parameters
Sorry it took me a while to respond, I had a talk to prepare for. On 28-4-2015 08:22, Mario Torre wrote: On Tue, 2015-04-21 at 09:52 +0200, Tom Eugelink wrote: Totally off topic, I apologise, but the subscribers to this list are the type of people who may have the experience I seek. I've been trying to pitch the concept of named parameters for Java 9, but somehow my JEP is never picked up. I emailed it in twice. Has anyone ever successfully handed in a JEP? https://tbeernot.wordpress.com/2013/09/29/the-java-9-named-parameter-pitch/ Tom I personally think this makes the language more verbose with little benefit, but that's just me maybe. That indeed is open for discussion. A JEP usually means you will need to do the work yourself, unless you can make such a strong case to get someone to work on the task for you (one such example, lambdas). In that regard no one will pick up your JEP, you need to actively push. Hm, I'm not sure I should be working on the compiler, that is scary and daunting. But I did expect someone to respond on the handing in of the JEP, mainly based on quotes like this: /We use the current JEP Process to collect, review, sort, and evaluate proposals for enhancements to the JDK. The ongoing result of this process is the JDK Roadmap, a collection of feature ideas and other proposals for consideration by JDK Release Projects and related efforts./ But after your explanation and rereading the JEP 1 and 2 it seems real life is different from the mental image that this quote puts in my head. Thanks for being so complete, I'll see what I can wrestle up via an discussion. Tom
Re: Off topic: named parameters
On Tue, 2015-04-21 at 09:52 +0200, Tom Eugelink wrote: Totally off topic, I apologise, but the subscribers to this list are the type of people who may have the experience I seek. I've been trying to pitch the concept of named parameters for Java 9, but somehow my JEP is never picked up. I emailed it in twice. Has anyone ever successfully handed in a JEP? https://tbeernot.wordpress.com/2013/09/29/the-java-9-named-parameter-pitch/ Tom Hi Tom, I personally think this makes the language more verbose with little benefit, but that's just me maybe. I don't see your JEP here: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/0 You can start off the discussion for a JEP over the mailing list that more closely matches your change area, if there's no objection, you can go on and create a bug on the OpenJDK bug database, from there you will need discussions in order to move the bug to the next state. A JEP usually means you will need to do the work yourself, unless you can make such a strong case to get someone to work on the task for you (one such example, lambdas). In that regard no one will pick up your JEP, you need to actively push. Changes, unless minor, will have to be reconfirmed by the JCP committee, so it may very well be that the JEP will just remain a very complex and complete proof of concept. The idea behind the JEP is to have a testbed for new ideas, a place where there's less overhead to experiment with something, and perhaps contribute quicker to OpenJDK once proved that the changes are small or self contained, or really worth it. Here you can find a bit more information: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/1 http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/2 And especially this: http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~mr/jep/jep-2.0-02.html Cheers, Mario
Off topic: named parameters
Totally off topic, I apologise, but the subscribers to this list are the type of people who may have the experience I seek. I've been trying to pitch the concept of named parameters for Java 9, but somehow my JEP is never picked up. I emailed it in twice. Has anyone ever successfully handed in a JEP? https://tbeernot.wordpress.com/2013/09/29/the-java-9-named-parameter-pitch/ Tom
Re: Off topic: named parameters
I don't know about JEP submission process, but you'd first have to solve the problem that when Java added serialization of parameter names to class files in Java 8, the OpenJDK devs explicitly decided *not* to expose them for the JDK itself, on the grounds that they didn't want parameter names to become part of the API. That's why you have to pass -parameters to javac to get the new feature. Adding named parameters to the Java language is probably a fair bit of work. You'd need to build consensus for it on the relevant mailing lists and with the relevant people first, before even getting to the JEP stage I guess. An easier path: figure out how to get parameter names as part of the JDK API and then work with the JetBrains Kotlin team. Kotlin is a very very Java compatible JVM language, and it already supports named parameters by default so they don't have the same hangups about the API compatibility aspect. The Kotlin compiler routinely uses annotation data from Java classes already so that's not a big leap either. I suspect what it will take to get the JDK folks happy with exporting parameter names by default is the ability to overload methods that differ only by parameter names, so if you have a method with bad names then you can add an overload with good names. However this would require a (much smaller) change to the Java language, changes to javac, changes to how the JVM does method linkage (possibly?) and so on. Another possible plan of attack would be to calculate API diffs over time and measure how often parameter names are actually changed. My guess is not often. If you can prove that they're worried about a relatively uncommon problem then perhaps the JDK maintainers can be convinced to make parameter names a part of the API, perhaps after an API cleanup pass to find obviously bogus names and fix them. Alternatively, given that Java is open source, you can of course go ahead and make your own version of the JRE that exports this data by default. Then you accept the possibility of upstream breaking your code and just swallow it. On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 9:52 AM, Tom Eugelink t...@tbee.org wrote: Totally off topic, I apologise, but the subscribers to this list are the type of people who may have the experience I seek. I've been trying to pitch the concept of named parameters for Java 9, but somehow my JEP is never picked up. I emailed it in twice. Has anyone ever successfully handed in a JEP? https://tbeernot.wordpress.com/2013/09/29/the-java-9-named-parameter-pitch/ Tom
