Re: OpenGL deprecated in OS-X

[Michael Paus]

Hi,
in the light of this announcement it might be a good idea to consider ANGLE

again as a unified rendering platform for JavaFX. Do not try to reinvent 
the wheel

again. The JavaFX community is much too small to always do its own thing.
Relying on a rendering technology which is used by giants like Google 
and Mozilla

is probably a better idea than once again cooking our own soup. Using ANGLE
should also make it possible to finally support WebGL in WebView.
Michael


Am 04.06.18 um 22:51 schrieb Tom Schindl:

Hi,

I don‘t know what the Apple guys are smoking but they just deprecated OpenGL. 
The question is what does this mean for JavaFX.

See https://developer.apple.com/macos/whats-new/

Tom

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Re: OpenGL deprecated in OS-X

[John-Val Rose]

I’m doing some work with Vulkan at the moment so maybe I’ll be able to help out 
with Vk support for JavaFX.

John-Val

> On 5 Jun 2018, at 17:18, Johan Vos  wrote:
> 
> Ever since Apple deprecated the developer-oriented Apple ][ , I failed to 
> appreciate their decisions. But so be it.
> 
> The good thing is that the structure of the OpenJFX project allows for 
> different rendering pipelines without much impact on other code. 
> Therefore, I think it would be a nice sandbox experiment to have a Metal and 
> a Vulkan pipeline. 
> 
> But I agree with Kevin, we don't need a replacement for OpenGL in the Java 11 
> timeframe :) 
> 
> - Johan
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 12:35 AM John-Val Rose  wrote:
>> Unfortunately Apple is doing exactly what Microsoft did during the “Great 
>> API Wars”. During this time, MS decided to go with its own exclusive 
>> graphics API namely Direct 3D as part of their whole DirectX technology 
>> instead of the obvious approach of supporting OpenGL fully.
>> 
>> These days, GPU drivers for DirectX work much better on Windows than those 
>> for OpenGL.
>> 
>> The same will now apply for Metal drivers versus OpenGL drivers on MacOS.
>> 
>> This is all about “vendor lock-in” and can be seen with other technologies 
>> like WebKit and Blink for example.
>> 
>> Of course this is bad news for the developers but devs are not the core 
>> market for Windows, Apple or Google/Android hardware.
>> 
>> The bright light on the horizon is Vulkan from Khronos which started out 
>> life as OpenGL 5 but is now being pushed as the ultimate cross platform 
>> graphics API.
>> 
>> Even Microsoft have jumped on board and Vulkan driver support on Windows is 
>> good.
>> 
>> We will have to wait and see but having a situation where OpenGL, DirectX, 
>> Metal and Vulkan are all important graphics APIs simultaneously is clearly 
>> not tenable.
>> 
>> > On 5 Jun 2018, at 06:51, Tom Schindl  wrote:
>> > 
>> > Hi,
>> > 
>> > I don‘t know what the Apple guys are smoking but they just deprecated 
>> > OpenGL. The question is what does this mean for JavaFX.
>> > 
>> > See https://developer.apple.com/macos/whats-new/
>> > 
>> > Tom
>> > 
>> > Von meinem iPhone gesendet

OpenGL deprecated in OS-X

[Paul Ray Russell]

Tom's right. Major news. Presumably prism would need to cater for a third
renderer, Metal. What would be the time scales for this? Is this an
opportunity to update the way javafx renderer works? Perhaps a tie in to
Lwjgl is better? They have Vulcan bindings and no doubt will wrap Metal.
But I would advocate avoiding a naive object wrapper that privatises all
wrapped calls. Imo. The problem is, currently, if a dev needs lower level
access it's all shielded.

On Mon, 4 Jun 2018, 23:02 ,  wrote:

> Send openjfx-dev mailing list submissions to
> openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://mail.openjdk.java.net/mailman/listinfo/openjfx-dev
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> openjfx-dev-requ...@openjdk.java.net
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> openjfx-dev-ow...@openjdk.java.net
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of openjfx-dev digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Re: Draft JEP for new Packaging Tool (replacement for
>   javapackager) (Pedro Duque Vieira)
>2. Re: Draft JEP for new Packaging Tool (replacement for
>   javapackager) (Scott Palmer)
>3. Re: Draft JEP for new Packaging Tool (replacement for
>   javapackager) (Michael Paus)
>4. Re: Draft JEP for new Packaging Tool (replacement for
>   javapackager) (Mario Ivankovits)
>5. OpenGL deprecated in OS-X (Tom Schindl)
>6. Re: Removal of apps/scenebuilder from OpenJFX repo (Sverre Moe)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 15:44:55 +0100
> From: Pedro Duque Vieira 
> To: OpenJFX Mailing List 
> Subject: Re: Draft JEP for new Packaging Tool (replacement for
> javapackager)
> Message-ID:
> <
> caaeud6za5jlngbsvsaw0d-mlwnreq2y6mmtqyrvxuvsuoex...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hi,
>
> I agree with Johan and others, a splash screen is valuable and needed.
>
> Microsoft applications that run on Windows itself (think Word, Excel, etc),
> they have a splash screen, Intelllij has a splash screen (it's swing based
> AFAIK), etc.. If a Microsoft application running on its own operating
> system needs a splash screen then chances are pretty high that there will
> be Java apps that'll need a splash screen.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> --
> Pedro Duque Vieira
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 12:22:18 -0400
> From: Scott Palmer 
> To: OpenJFX Mailing List 
> Subject: Re: Draft JEP for new Packaging Tool (replacement for
> javapackager)
> Message-ID: <536bf700-3f7b-42d2-9cd9-21ef9385c...@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=utf-8
>
> Nobody is arguing against splash screens.  I?m simply suggesting that the
> JVM startup is not slow enough that we need special handling of this in
> native code.
>
> If Java can get a window displayed in under half a second there is no need
> for the added complexity to support a native splash screen in the launcher.
>
> The idea that cinit code *can* be slow is not really the issue here unless
> it isn?t possible to get a window displayed quickly even when there is no
> significant initialization other than to get that window= shown.  Don?t put
> heavy initialization in the main class when you want a splash screen.  Use
> a pre-main class that shows the splash screen and calls the ?real? main
> class.
>
> It makes sense to understand if we have this problem before making a
> complex solution.
>
> Scott
>
>
> > On Jun 4, 2018, at 10:44 AM, Pedro Duque Vieira <
> pedro.duquevie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I agree with Johan and others, a splash screen is valuable and needed.
> >
> > Microsoft applications that run on Windows itself (think Word, Excel,
> etc),
> > they have a splash screen, Intelllij has a splash screen (it's swing
> based
> > AFAIK), etc.. If a Microsoft application running on its own operating
> > system needs a splash screen then chances are pretty high that there will
> > be Java apps that'll need a splash screen.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pedro Duque Vieira
>
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 18:35:15 +0200
> From: Michael Paus 
> To: OpenJFX 
> Subject: Re: Draft JEP for new Packaging Tool (replacement for
> javapackager)
> Message-ID: <99ace730-ad9b-f8ba-dd35-c2cf56b99...@jugs.org>
>

Re: OpenGL deprecated in OS-X

[Johan Vos]

Ever since Apple deprecated the developer-oriented Apple ][ , I failed to
appreciate their decisions. But so be it.

The good thing is that the structure of the OpenJFX project allows for
different rendering pipelines without much impact on other code.
Therefore, I think it would be a nice sandbox experiment to have a Metal
and a Vulkan pipeline.

But I agree with Kevin, we don't need a replacement for OpenGL in the Java
11 timeframe :)

- Johan


On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 12:35 AM John-Val Rose  wrote:

> Unfortunately Apple is doing exactly what Microsoft did during the “Great
> API Wars”. During this time, MS decided to go with its own exclusive
> graphics API namely Direct 3D as part of their whole DirectX technology
> instead of the obvious approach of supporting OpenGL fully.
>
> These days, GPU drivers for DirectX work much better on Windows than those
> for OpenGL.
>
> The same will now apply for Metal drivers versus OpenGL drivers on MacOS.
>
> This is all about “vendor lock-in” and can be seen with other technologies
> like WebKit and Blink for example.
>
> Of course this is bad news for the developers but devs are not the core
> market for Windows, Apple or Google/Android hardware.
>
> The bright light on the horizon is Vulkan from Khronos which started out
> life as OpenGL 5 but is now being pushed as the ultimate cross platform
> graphics API.
>
> Even Microsoft have jumped on board and Vulkan driver support on Windows
> is good.
>
> We will have to wait and see but having a situation where OpenGL, DirectX,
> Metal and Vulkan are all important graphics APIs simultaneously is clearly
> not tenable.
>
> > On 5 Jun 2018, at 06:51, Tom Schindl 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I don‘t know what the Apple guys are smoking but they just deprecated
> OpenGL. The question is what does this mean for JavaFX.
> >
> > See https://developer.apple.com/macos/whats-new/
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > Von meinem iPhone gesendet
>

Re: OpenGL deprecated in OS-X

[John-Val Rose]

Unfortunately Apple is doing exactly what Microsoft did during the “Great API 
Wars”. During this time, MS decided to go with its own exclusive graphics API 
namely Direct 3D as part of their whole DirectX technology instead of the 
obvious approach of supporting OpenGL fully.

These days, GPU drivers for DirectX work much better on Windows than those for 
OpenGL.

The same will now apply for Metal drivers versus OpenGL drivers on MacOS.

This is all about “vendor lock-in” and can be seen with other technologies like 
WebKit and Blink for example.

Of course this is bad news for the developers but devs are not the core market 
for Windows, Apple or Google/Android hardware.

The bright light on the horizon is Vulkan from Khronos which started out life 
as OpenGL 5 but is now being pushed as the ultimate cross platform graphics API.

Even Microsoft have jumped on board and Vulkan driver support on Windows is 
good.

We will have to wait and see but having a situation where OpenGL, DirectX, 
Metal and Vulkan are all important graphics APIs simultaneously is clearly not 
tenable.

> On 5 Jun 2018, at 06:51, Tom Schindl  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I don‘t know what the Apple guys are smoking but they just deprecated OpenGL. 
> The question is what does this mean for JavaFX.
> 
> See https://developer.apple.com/macos/whats-new/
> 
> Tom
> 
> Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Re: OpenGL deprecated in OS-X

[Kevin Rushforth]

Apple has been making noises about this for a while. I wouldn't expect 
them to drop OpenGL in the very near future, but it would seem that 
investigating a Metal pipeline for FX is timely.


-- Kevin


On 6/4/2018 1:51 PM, Tom Schindl wrote:

Hi,

I don‘t know what the Apple guys are smoking but they just deprecated OpenGL. 
The question is what does this mean for JavaFX.

See https://developer.apple.com/macos/whats-new/

Tom

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

OpenGL deprecated in OS-X

[Tom Schindl]

Hi,

I don‘t know what the Apple guys are smoking but they just deprecated OpenGL. 
The question is what does this mean for JavaFX.

See https://developer.apple.com/macos/whats-new/

Tom

Von meinem iPhone gesendet