Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Well, what a long discussion about something that was already decided long ago There is the OpenCurrency module for those that want to play around with it and there are some other ppl working on Money related things. The removal of the SampleMoney module was 1 of the things that I left the OpenSim development scene, as the name of the module said: It's SAMPLE money I know there 3 people working on a real currency module as we speak and 1 of them has succesfully integrated it into the OpenSim now. The story continues ... 2009/7/8 Snowdrop Short snowdrop.sh...@gmail.com: The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may think and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not including a money module. I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe continuing to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great effort on the project and completely needless. OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses currently in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being implemented, either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that the core will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-adequate. (This has been done for other out-of-core modules). Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the scope of the project, it would still require volunteers to implement the module, so I fail to see the real difference between an out-of-core module for handling money and an in-core one. If all the passion thrown into this debate was directed towards creating an out-of-core module, it would spring into existence quite rapidly. /Snowcrash On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 17:17 +0200, Colin B. Withers wrote: Hi Neb, No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the arguments. Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through beta, and onto release. Let me put it this way, quite clearly.. If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released) and that virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to the Opensim policy of no currency module in core I went to a third party and procured a currency module, I would have a situation where the two most critical elements of a commerce system, ie: a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim), and b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc) are sourced from different suppliers. Now, please explain to me the difference between: i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency module, ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been bought with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset server malfunction? It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of people losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from the currency module. Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or eventually will be) immune from the risk of loss of assets? I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so much development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still loses its residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents just 2 or 3 weeks ago is testament to that). Is there any real difference between: 1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up then on my balance, 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, losing US $10's worth of inworld currency 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency equivalent to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory? To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down. I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the same time: Currency module = big risk Asset server = no risk And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for risk (it is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that risk, and hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is that all risk is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as SL does) by a carefully worded TOS. Rock From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Nebadon Izumi Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Rock, I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around, the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure, yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so that you can have an
Re: [Opensim-dev] Proposal: Change module interface to indicate replacable modules
This is also the case for all the new connector modules.
I'm definitely +1 on solving the problem underlying Melanie's proposal
in some way. Modules are now much more important than they used to be
[and this is a good thing]. Melanie's concrete proposal seems fine.
My feeling is that there's still a lot of things to do in order to get
the most of the module system. And the module system is perhaps the
single most important thing in the entire framework, from a software
engineering perspective.
Teravus Ovares wrote:
This does not solve the issue with registering interfaces.In the
map example, the map module was accessed via an interface that it
registered.Adding the configuration option to turn it off in
opensim.ini by making the module not register for the interface was
how diva handled it, however, think in terms of a service provider who
does some black magic in the module to interface with their systems
and provides a dll to download. These programmers are not going to
really want to patch modules to do that. Most want their custom code
here to work touching as little SVN code as possible to limit
conflicts. Another thing, there isn't really a way to currently order
the way things load and it would be bad practice to have modules all
try to re-register themselves over other modules on post init.
Additionally, it would be complicated and error prone for an installer
or the user to make changes to the order that things load. An
installer wouldn't even need to change configuration files. As I
said, this was the purpose of the ReplaceableModules architecture.
Drop in, and the new functionality is available. This is to make life
simple for users and service providers.
As people who were in IRC today heard, configuring OpenSimulator these
days is significantly more difficult then it used to be with cryptic
error messages that, unfortunately, when I brought them up in IRC,
nobody knew what to tell me. So, I bumbled around for a few hours
getting nothing done until I eventually figured out what the problems
were and committed more clear error messages in the hope that nobody
else would have to go through that. This forced user configuration
is unmaintainable.. especially when configuration things change and
there's no mailing list messages about an update path or even a
mention that you'll have to re-configure your sim upon updating on the
mailing list. Ultimately, for people to want to produce and
distribute modules for OpenSimulator, we need to make it easy for them
to do so. This is one way that we can make it easy for them.
Regards
Teravus
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 10:22 PM, Frisby, Adama...@deepthink.com.au wrote:
Suggested change:
Some modules need to be configurable (eg, groups needs the groups URL) -
therefore, provide a standard way of entering configuration variables into a
module that can be set at runtime before the module is fully loaded.
As an upside, we could backport that to opensim core, so people can enter
opensim.ini settings at first startup. Load the more complicated ones from
opensim.ini as a default - but some like the defaultX/defaultY, HTTP port,
etc.
My suggestion would be something that resembles this in the module code:
Public void prestart(IConfig defaults) {
IConfig myModuleConfig = new NiniConfig...
Configurator config = new Configurator(); // uses STDIO
int x;
if(!(x = myModuleConfig['MyModule'].GetInteger('foo'))) {
// Validation might require better handling...
while(x 0 x 100) {
x = config.GetInteger(Value of foo?:);
}
myModuleConfig['MyModule']['x'] = x;
}
... wash, rinse, repeat ...
myModuleConfig.Save('config/mymodule.ini');
}
Maybe we can simplify that down with a bit of cleverness and re-usable
functions
(eg using a lambda or delegate to handle the validation callback)
Adam
-Original Message-
From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-
boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Teravus Ovares
Sent: Friday, 10 July 2009 5:05 PM
To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Proposal: Change module interface to
indicate replacable modules
Example:
Diva created a world map module, but the one in the OpenSimulator
distribution wouldn't let Diva's module run so she had to create a
configuration flag to turn the module in the OpenSimulator
distribution off. Now, there's a complicated configuration option
for the world map module where you have to type out the object
namespace.
The groups module in OpenSimulator's distribution is a stub. We do
not intend people to use it out of the box. Therefore it makes sense
to have an implicit way to ensure that it doesn't run when there is a
replacement loaded.
Melanie doesn't think the 'replaceable modules' architecture is
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Well, I am maintaining the sample currency module on forge now and keeping it available. I believe you are aware that I have a commercial RMT module, and had it for more than a year. We have simply decided it can't be in core, but we are still making it as easy to access and integrate it as we can. We're not against people having money. If we were, we would have remove the interfaces. We just can't risk it in core. Melanie Fly Man wrote: Well, what a long discussion about something that was already decided long ago There is the OpenCurrency module for those that want to play around with it and there are some other ppl working on Money related things. The removal of the SampleMoney module was 1 of the things that I left the OpenSim development scene, as the name of the module said: It's SAMPLE money I know there 3 people working on a real currency module as we speak and 1 of them has succesfully integrated it into the OpenSim now. The story continues ... 2009/7/8 Snowdrop Short snowdrop.sh...@gmail.com: The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may think and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not including a money module. I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe continuing to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great effort on the project and completely needless. OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses currently in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being implemented, either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that the core will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-adequate. (This has been done for other out-of-core modules). Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the scope of the project, it would still require volunteers to implement the module, so I fail to see the real difference between an out-of-core module for handling money and an in-core one. If all the passion thrown into this debate was directed towards creating an out-of-core module, it would spring into existence quite rapidly. /Snowcrash On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 17:17 +0200, Colin B. Withers wrote: Hi Neb, No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the arguments. Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through beta, and onto release. Let me put it this way, quite clearly.. If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released) and that virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to the Opensim policy of no currency module in core I went to a third party and procured a currency module, I would have a situation where the two most critical elements of a commerce system, ie: a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim), and b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc) are sourced from different suppliers. Now, please explain to me the difference between: i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency module, ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been bought with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset server malfunction? It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of people losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from the currency module. Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or eventually will be) immune from the risk of loss of assets? I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so much development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still loses its residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents just 2 or 3 weeks ago is testament to that). Is there any real difference between: 1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up then on my balance, 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, losing US $10's worth of inworld currency 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency equivalent to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory? To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down. I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the same time: Currency module = big risk Asset server = no risk And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for risk (it is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that risk, and hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is that all risk is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as SL does) by a carefully worded TOS. Rock From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Nebadon Izumi Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009
Re: [Opensim-dev] mono *.exe crashes if screen is smaller than created...
No, it has nothing to with log4net. Frisby, Adam wrote: This sounds like a NLog bug actually -- all our console output is formatted by nlog (since it also does our logging, etc) Adam -Original Message- From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev- boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Torrid Luna Sent: Friday, 10 July 2009 6:50 PM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] mono *.exe crashes if screen is smaller than created... Also sprach Mojito Sorbet (mojitot...@gmail.com): Why can't the consoles just use ReadLine and WriteLine? That would make it easier to interface with in a variety of ways? +1 Coming from Unix, I had these kind of problems only with Cisco Terminals, Windows Telnet emulations and Opensim so far. stdin/stdout is so much more convenient, and it would save a lot of screen sessions. Cheers, Torrid -- Excerpts of 1 Shell Scripts -- today: monkeytypewriter $ cat /dev/random | strings | fmt | less ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Deprecate OpenSim.Grid.InventoryServer and OpenSim.Grid.AssetServer?
Personally, I think all the anatomic references are completely out of place. Naming things 'BUST' or 'BALLS' is a big joke, is very unprofessional, and is an invitation to the less than tolerant to cause trouble. See, it's happening already. Cheers, James On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 6:13 AM, Melanie mela...@t-data.com wrote: Nice one. It's descriptive. +1 from me (covers my B.U.S.T.) Melanie Fly Man wrote: R.O.B.U.S.T sounds more like it 2009/7/9 Stefan Andersson lbs...@hotmail.com: How about “Redesigned OpenSim Basic Universal Server Technology” – R.O.B.U.S.T? ;) Btw, You will hear no end of references to LoA from me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1jzVJjk32E /Stefan From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Laurent B. Sent: den 9 juli 2009 14:01 To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Deprecate OpenSim.Grid.InventoryServer and OpenSim.Grid.AssetServer? +1 for B.U.S.T : in B.U.S.T we trust ! Laurent Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 09:03:58 +0200 From: drscofi...@xyzzyxyzzy.net To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Deprecate OpenSim.Grid.InventoryServer and OpenSim.Grid.AssetServer? Sean Hennessee wrote: MW wrote: I also would rather a different name than BUST, and also before any protocol changes are done, see full documentation about the plans. How about BOSS? Basic Open Simulator Servers? +1 -- dr dirk husemann virtual worlds research ibm zurich research lab SL: dr scofield drscofi...@xyzzyxyzzy.net http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/ RL: h...@zurich.ibm.com - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/ http://www.zurich.ibm.com/%7Ehud/ ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev Discutez sur Messenger où que vous soyez ! Mettez Messenger sur votre mobile ! ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev -- === http://osgrid.org http://del.icio.us/SPQR http://twitter.com/jstallings2 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Deprecate OpenSim.Grid.InventoryServer and OpenSim.Grid.AssetServer?
Pre 1.0, devs have a tendency to put jokes into software. Most don't last, they're not meant to. Soem do last, even make it into production. They are so hidden, most of the time, that they're actually easter eggs then. B.U.S.T. was the result of a shared joke between myself and AimeeT, with the plugins being implants It wasn't meant to stay and won't stay. I'm sure of that. Melanie James Stallings II wrote: Personally, I think all the anatomic references are completely out of place. Naming things 'BUST' or 'BALLS' is a big joke, is very unprofessional, and is an invitation to the less than tolerant to cause trouble. See, it's happening already. Cheers, James On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 6:13 AM, Melanie mela...@t-data.com wrote: Nice one. It's descriptive. +1 from me (covers my B.U.S.T.) Melanie Fly Man wrote: R.O.B.U.S.T sounds more like it 2009/7/9 Stefan Andersson lbs...@hotmail.com: How about “Redesigned OpenSim Basic Universal Server Technology” – R.O.B.U.S.T? ;) Btw, You will hear no end of references to LoA from me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1jzVJjk32E /Stefan From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Laurent B. Sent: den 9 juli 2009 14:01 To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Deprecate OpenSim.Grid.InventoryServer and OpenSim.Grid.AssetServer? +1 for B.U.S.T : in B.U.S.T we trust ! Laurent Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 09:03:58 +0200 From: drscofi...@xyzzyxyzzy.net To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Deprecate OpenSim.Grid.InventoryServer and OpenSim.Grid.AssetServer? Sean Hennessee wrote: MW wrote: I also would rather a different name than BUST, and also before any protocol changes are done, see full documentation about the plans. How about BOSS? Basic Open Simulator Servers? +1 -- dr dirk husemann virtual worlds research ibm zurich research lab SL: dr scofield drscofi...@xyzzyxyzzy.net http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/ RL: h...@zurich.ibm.com - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/ http://www.zurich.ibm.com/%7Ehud/ ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev Discutez sur Messenger où que vous soyez ! Mettez Messenger sur votre mobile ! ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
The project is opencurrency on OpenSim forge. It uses a LAMP server. The ASP.NET is a different implementation. Melanie Aldon Hynes wrote: Melanie, Fly Man, et al., It is good to hear that a sample currency module is available on forge and that there are people interested in working on developing it. On Wednesday, I sent an email, offering to help with a currency project and asked if anyone knew where the sample currency module was. No one stepped forward to help, or to tell me where I could find any exisiting implementation. I searched around and couldn't find anything. On the OpenSim Wiki there is the http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Money which is intended as an open discussion board for ideas regarding an in-world financial system. Unfortunately, it does not provide any links to sample implementations. It does seem like this may primarily be a documentation problem. After reading your emails today and doing a bit of searching, I did find http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/currency/ In searching through the repository, I did find Currency_DesignDocument.doc which provides information about doing an installation of the module. (Installation information can currently be found in section 2.2.1.1.2 ) It does appear as if it depends on having a ASP.NET enabled webserver, which rules me out from being able to do testing at this time. It would be interesting to see if a LAMP based server could be developed, or perhaps a lighter weight service that simply uses the existing databases in a standard OpenSim installation. With that, I am willing to set up an OpenSimCurrency Wiki and help document this project. I can help with a LAMP money server that could potentially be integrated with other interfaces. (For example, Jeroen was asking about a WiXTD interface). All of that said, I am heading off on vacation for the next two weeks. I will have spotty access here and there and can't really focus on this substantially until August. However, I would love to get some responses now and see what we can do to get currency much more usable for anyone that wants it. Aldon -Original Message- From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de]on Behalf Of Melanie Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 7:12 AM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Well, I am maintaining the sample currency module on forge now and keeping it available. I believe you are aware that I have a commercial RMT module, and had it for more than a year. We have simply decided it can't be in core, but we are still making it as easy to access and integrate it as we can. We're not against people having money. If we were, we would have remove the interfaces. We just can't risk it in core. Melanie Fly Man wrote: Well, what a long discussion about something that was already decided long ago There is the OpenCurrency module for those that want to play around with it and there are some other ppl working on Money related things. The removal of the SampleMoney module was 1 of the things that I left the OpenSim development scene, as the name of the module said: It's SAMPLE money I know there 3 people working on a real currency module as we speak and 1 of them has succesfully integrated it into the OpenSim now. The story continues ... 2009/7/8 Snowdrop Short snowdrop.sh...@gmail.com: The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may think and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not including a money module. I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe continuing to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great effort on the project and completely needless. OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses currently in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being implemented, either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that the core will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-adequate. (This has been done for other out-of-core modules). Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the scope of the project, it would still require volunteers to implement the module, so I fail to see the real difference between an out-of-core module for handling money and an in-core one. If all the passion thrown into this debate was directed towards creating an out-of-core module, it would spring into existence quite rapidly. /Snowcrash On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 17:17 +0200, Colin B. Withers wrote: Hi Neb, No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the arguments. Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through beta, and onto release. Let me put it this
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Melanie, Fly Man, et al., It is good to hear that a sample currency module is available on forge and that there are people interested in working on developing it. On Wednesday, I sent an email, offering to help with a currency project and asked if anyone knew where the sample currency module was. No one stepped forward to help, or to tell me where I could find any exisiting implementation. I searched around and couldn't find anything. On the OpenSim Wiki there is the http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Money which is intended as an open discussion board for ideas regarding an in-world financial system. Unfortunately, it does not provide any links to sample implementations. It does seem like this may primarily be a documentation problem. After reading your emails today and doing a bit of searching, I did find http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/currency/ In searching through the repository, I did find Currency_DesignDocument.doc which provides information about doing an installation of the module. (Installation information can currently be found in section 2.2.1.1.2 ) It does appear as if it depends on having a ASP.NET enabled webserver, which rules me out from being able to do testing at this time. It would be interesting to see if a LAMP based server could be developed, or perhaps a lighter weight service that simply uses the existing databases in a standard OpenSim installation. With that, I am willing to set up an OpenSimCurrency Wiki and help document this project. I can help with a LAMP money server that could potentially be integrated with other interfaces. (For example, Jeroen was asking about a WiXTD interface). All of that said, I am heading off on vacation for the next two weeks. I will have spotty access here and there and can't really focus on this substantially until August. However, I would love to get some responses now and see what we can do to get currency much more usable for anyone that wants it. Aldon -Original Message- From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de]on Behalf Of Melanie Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 7:12 AM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Well, I am maintaining the sample currency module on forge now and keeping it available. I believe you are aware that I have a commercial RMT module, and had it for more than a year. We have simply decided it can't be in core, but we are still making it as easy to access and integrate it as we can. We're not against people having money. If we were, we would have remove the interfaces. We just can't risk it in core. Melanie Fly Man wrote: Well, what a long discussion about something that was already decided long ago There is the OpenCurrency module for those that want to play around with it and there are some other ppl working on Money related things. The removal of the SampleMoney module was 1 of the things that I left the OpenSim development scene, as the name of the module said: It's SAMPLE money I know there 3 people working on a real currency module as we speak and 1 of them has succesfully integrated it into the OpenSim now. The story continues ... 2009/7/8 Snowdrop Short snowdrop.sh...@gmail.com: The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may think and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not including a money module. I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe continuing to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great effort on the project and completely needless. OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses currently in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being implemented, either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that the core will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-adequate. (This has been done for other out-of-core modules). Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the scope of the project, it would still require volunteers to implement the module, so I fail to see the real difference between an out-of-core module for handling money and an in-core one. If all the passion thrown into this debate was directed towards creating an out-of-core module, it would spring into existence quite rapidly. /Snowcrash On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 17:17 +0200, Colin B. Withers wrote: Hi Neb, No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the arguments. Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through beta, and onto release. Let me put it this way, quite clearly.. If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released) and that virtual would was to have commerce,
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Melanie, et al., Thanks for the update. I've joined the opencurrency project and have put in a request to join the currency project as well. Is there any documentation on how to install this? I've added links to both projects to the bottom of the Money page in the OpenSim wiki. Is the OpenSim Wiki sufficient for handling this project, or is there need and interest in a parallel Wiki specific to currency implementations for OpenSim? Aldon -Original Message- From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de]on Behalf Of Melanie Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 9:17 AM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency The project is opencurrency on OpenSim forge. It uses a LAMP server. The ASP.NET is a different implementation. Melanie Aldon Hynes wrote: Melanie, Fly Man, et al., It is good to hear that a sample currency module is available on forge and that there are people interested in working on developing it. On Wednesday, I sent an email, offering to help with a currency project and asked if anyone knew where the sample currency module was. No one stepped forward to help, or to tell me where I could find any exisiting implementation. I searched around and couldn't find anything. On the OpenSim Wiki there is the http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Money which is intended as an open discussion board for ideas regarding an in-world financial system. Unfortunately, it does not provide any links to sample implementations. It does seem like this may primarily be a documentation problem. After reading your emails today and doing a bit of searching, I did find http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/currency/ In searching through the repository, I did find Currency_DesignDocument.doc which provides information about doing an installation of the module. (Installation information can currently be found in section 2.2.1.1.2 ) It does appear as if it depends on having a ASP.NET enabled webserver, which rules me out from being able to do testing at this time. It would be interesting to see if a LAMP based server could be developed, or perhaps a lighter weight service that simply uses the existing databases in a standard OpenSim installation. With that, I am willing to set up an OpenSimCurrency Wiki and help document this project. I can help with a LAMP money server that could potentially be integrated with other interfaces. (For example, Jeroen was asking about a WiXTD interface). All of that said, I am heading off on vacation for the next two weeks. I will have spotty access here and there and can't really focus on this substantially until August. However, I would love to get some responses now and see what we can do to get currency much more usable for anyone that wants it. Aldon -Original Message- From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de]on Behalf Of Melanie Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 7:12 AM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Well, I am maintaining the sample currency module on forge now and keeping it available. I believe you are aware that I have a commercial RMT module, and had it for more than a year. We have simply decided it can't be in core, but we are still making it as easy to access and integrate it as we can. We're not against people having money. If we were, we would have remove the interfaces. We just can't risk it in core. Melanie Fly Man wrote: Well, what a long discussion about something that was already decided long ago There is the OpenCurrency module for those that want to play around with it and there are some other ppl working on Money related things. The removal of the SampleMoney module was 1 of the things that I left the OpenSim development scene, as the name of the module said: It's SAMPLE money I know there 3 people working on a real currency module as we speak and 1 of them has succesfully integrated it into the OpenSim now. The story continues ... 2009/7/8 Snowdrop Short snowdrop.sh...@gmail.com: The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may think and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not including a money module. I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe continuing to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great effort on the project and completely needless. OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses currently in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being implemented, either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that the core will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-adequate. (This has been done for other out-of-core modules). Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Yes, that was the one I was referring too. Melanie maintains the OpenCurrency on the Gforge and she also has a RMT module that she's been using. 2009/7/11 Melanie mela...@t-data.com: Well, I am maintaining the sample currency module on forge now and keeping it available. I believe you are aware that I have a commercial RMT module, and had it for more than a year. We have simply decided it can't be in core, but we are still making it as easy to access and integrate it as we can. We're not against people having money. If we were, we would have remove the interfaces. We just can't risk it in core. Melanie Fly Man wrote: Well, what a long discussion about something that was already decided long ago There is the OpenCurrency module for those that want to play around with it and there are some other ppl working on Money related things. The removal of the SampleMoney module was 1 of the things that I left the OpenSim development scene, as the name of the module said: It's SAMPLE money I know there 3 people working on a real currency module as we speak and 1 of them has succesfully integrated it into the OpenSim now. The story continues ... 2009/7/8 Snowdrop Short snowdrop.sh...@gmail.com: The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may think and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not including a money module. I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe continuing to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great effort on the project and completely needless. OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses currently in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being implemented, either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that the core will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-adequate. (This has been done for other out-of-core modules). Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the scope of the project, it would still require volunteers to implement the module, so I fail to see the real difference between an out-of-core module for handling money and an in-core one. If all the passion thrown into this debate was directed towards creating an out-of-core module, it would spring into existence quite rapidly. /Snowcrash On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 17:17 +0200, Colin B. Withers wrote: Hi Neb, No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the arguments. Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through beta, and onto release. Let me put it this way, quite clearly.. If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released) and that virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to the Opensim policy of no currency module in core I went to a third party and procured a currency module, I would have a situation where the two most critical elements of a commerce system, ie: a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim), and b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc) are sourced from different suppliers. Now, please explain to me the difference between: i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency module, ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been bought with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset server malfunction? It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of people losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from the currency module. Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or eventually will be) immune from the risk of loss of assets? I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so much development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still loses its residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents just 2 or 3 weeks ago is testament to that). Is there any real difference between: 1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up then on my balance, 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, losing US $10's worth of inworld currency 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency equivalent to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory? To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down. I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the same time: Currency module = big risk Asset server = no risk And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for risk (it is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that risk, and hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is that all risk is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as SL does) by
