Re: [openstack-dev] [Openstack-operators] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
On 08/30/2018 11:33 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > On 2018-08-30 22:49:26 +0200 (+0200), Thomas Goirand wrote: > [...] >> I really don't want this. I'm happy with things being sorted in >> multiple lists, even though I'm subscribed to multiples. > > I understand where you're coming from I'm coming from the time when OpenStack had a list on launchpad where everything was mixed. We did the split because it was really annoying to have everything mixed. > I was accustomed to communities where developers had one mailing > list, users had another, and whenever a user asked a question on the > developer mailing list they were told to go away and bother the user > mailing list instead (not even a good, old-fashioned "RTFM" for > their trouble). I don't think that's what we are doing. Usually, when someone does the mistake, we do reply to him/her, at the same time pointing to the correct list. > You're probably intimately familiar with at least > one of these communities. ;) I know what you have in mind! Indeed, in that list, it happens that some people are a bit harsh to users. Hopefully, the folks in OpenStack devel aren't like this. > As the years went by, it's become apparent to me that this is > actually an antisocial behavior pattern In the OpenStack lists, every day, some developers take the time to answer users. So I don't see what there is to fix. > I believe OpenStack actually wants users to see the > development work which is underway, come to understand it, and > become part of that process. Users are very much welcome in our -dev list. I don't think there's a problem here. > Requiring them to have their > conversations elsewhere sends the opposite message. In many places and occasion, we've sent the correct message. On 08/30/2018 11:45 PM, Jimmy McArthur wrote: > IMO this is easily solved by tagging. If emails are properly tagged > (which they typically are), most email clients will properly sort on > rules and you can just auto-delete if you're 100% not interested in a > particular topic. This topically works with folks used to send tags. It doesn't for new comers, which is what you see with newbies coming to ask questions. Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo) __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Openstack-operators] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
I think the more we can reduce the ML sprawl the better. I also recall us discussing having some documentation or way of notifying net new signups of how to interact with the ML successfully. An example was having some general guidelines around tagging. Also as a maintainer for at least one of the mailing lists over the past 6+ months I have to inquire about how that will happen going forward which again could be part of this documentation/initial message. Also there are many times I miss messages that for one reason or another do not hit the proper mailing list. I mean we could dive into the minutia or start up the mountain of why keeping things the way they are is worst than making this change and vice versa but I am willing to bet there are more advantages than disadvantages. On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:45 PM Jimmy McArthur wrote: > > > Jeremy Stanley wrote: > > On 2018-08-30 22:49:26 +0200 (+0200), Thomas Goirand wrote: > [...] > > I really don't want this. I'm happy with things being sorted in > multiple lists, even though I'm subscribed to multiples. > > IMO this is easily solved by tagging. If emails are properly tagged > (which they typically are), most email clients will properly sort on rules > and you can just auto-delete if you're 100% not interested in a particular > topic. > Yes, there are definitely ways to go about discarding unwanted mail automagically or not seeing it at all. And to be honest I think if we are relying on so many separate MLs to do that for us it is better community wide for the responsibility for that to be on individuals. It becomes very tiring and inefficient time wise to have to go through the various issues of the way things are now; cross-posting is a great example that is steadily getting worse. > SNIP > > As the years went by, it's become apparent to me that this is > actually an antisocial behavior pattern, and actively harmful to the > user base. I believe OpenStack actually wants users to see the > development work which is underway, come to understand it, and > become part of that process. Requiring them to have their > conversations elsewhere sends the opposite message. > > I really and truly believe that it has become a blocker for our > community. Conversations sent to multiple lists inherently splinter and we > end up with different groups coming up with different solutions for a > single problem. Literally the opposite desired result of sending things to > multiple lists. I believe bringing these groups together, with tags, will > solve a lot of immediate problems. It will also have an added bonus of > allowing people "catching up" on the community to look to a single place > for a thread i/o 1-5 separate lists. It's better in both the short and > long term. > +1 > > Cheers, > Jimmy > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: > openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribehttp://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > > ___ > OpenStack-operators mailing list > openstack-operat...@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators > -- Kind regards, Melvin Hillsman mrhills...@gmail.com mobile: (832) 264-2646 __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Openstack-operators] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
Jeremy Stanley wrote: On 2018-08-30 22:49:26 +0200 (+0200), Thomas Goirand wrote: [...] I really don't want this. I'm happy with things being sorted in multiple lists, even though I'm subscribed to multiples. IMO this is easily solved by tagging. If emails are properly tagged (which they typically are), most email clients will properly sort on rules and you can just auto-delete if you're 100% not interested in a particular topic. SNIP As the years went by, it's become apparent to me that this is actually an antisocial behavior pattern, and actively harmful to the user base. I believe OpenStack actually wants users to see the development work which is underway, come to understand it, and become part of that process. Requiring them to have their conversations elsewhere sends the opposite message. I really and truly believe that it has become a blocker for our community. Conversations sent to multiple lists inherently splinter and we end up with different groups coming up with different solutions for a single problem. Literally the opposite desired result of sending things to multiple lists. I believe bringing these groups together, with tags, will solve a lot of immediate problems. It will also have an added bonus of allowing people "catching up" on the community to look to a single place for a thread i/o 1-5 separate lists. It's better in both the short and long term. Cheers, Jimmy __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Openstack-operators] [all] Bringing the community together (combine the lists!)
On 2018-08-30 22:49:26 +0200 (+0200), Thomas Goirand wrote: [...] > I really don't want this. I'm happy with things being sorted in > multiple lists, even though I'm subscribed to multiples. I understand where you're coming from, and I used to feel similarly. I was accustomed to communities where developers had one mailing list, users had another, and whenever a user asked a question on the developer mailing list they were told to go away and bother the user mailing list instead (not even a good, old-fashioned "RTFM" for their trouble). You're probably intimately familiar with at least one of these communities. ;) As the years went by, it's become apparent to me that this is actually an antisocial behavior pattern, and actively harmful to the user base. I believe OpenStack actually wants users to see the development work which is underway, come to understand it, and become part of that process. Requiring them to have their conversations elsewhere sends the opposite message. -- Jeremy Stanley signature.asc Description: PGP signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
