Re: [openstack-dev] [infra] javascript templating library choice for status pages
On 01/13/2014 04:28 PM, Michael Krotscheck wrote: On 01/13/2014 01:12 PM, Sean Dague wrote: Well, as an expert in the area, particular recommendations would be appreciated. I don't feel like we necessarily need one answer, but it would be nice knock some of the options off the table. I'd say: Start with handlebars, unless you want to lay application groundwork, in which case you should try angular.js. The former will be much, much faster, and have a shallower learning curve. Awesome, thanks for the great brain dump, and explanation of the space. Much appreciated. -Sean -- Sean Dague Samsung Research America s...@dague.net / sean.da...@samsung.com http://dague.net signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [infra] javascript templating library choice for status pages
On 01/12/2014 09:56 PM, Michael Krotscheck wrote: If all you're looking for is a javascript-based in-browser templating system, then handlebars is a fine choice. I'm not certain on how complex status.html/status.js is, however if you expect it to grow to something more like an application then perhaps looking at angular as a full application framework might help you avoid both this growing pain and future ones (alternatives: Ember, backbone, etc). Honestly, I've not done enough large scale js projects to know whether we'd consider status.js to be big or not. I just know it's definitely getting too big for += all the html together and doing document.writes. I guess the real question I had is is there an incremental path towards any of the other frameworks? I can see how to incrementally bring in templates, but again my personal lack of experience on these others means I don't know. Quick warning though, a lot of the javascript community out there uses tooling that is built on top of Node.js, for which current official packages for Centos/Ubuntu don't exist, and therefore infra won't support it for openstack. Storyboard is able to get around this because it's not actually part of openstack proper, but you might be forced to manage your code manually. That's not a deal breaker in my opinion - it's just more tedious (though I think it might be less tedious than what you're doing right now). I'd ideally like to be able to function without node, mostly because it's another development environment to have to manager. But I realize that's pushing against the current at this point. So I agree, not a deal breaker. -Sean -- Sean Dague Samsung Research America s...@dague.net / sean.da...@samsung.com http://dague.net ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [infra] javascript templating library choice for status pages
Personally, I think that it's a great step now to move this code to the templates. As for the huge frameworks - I prefer something like Angular.JS or Knockout.JS. Currently, the status.js file isn't so bug to rewrite it as a real life web app and so, we could just add templates to make it much more readable and improvable. On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 5:05 PM, Sean Dague s...@dague.net wrote: On 01/12/2014 09:56 PM, Michael Krotscheck wrote: If all you're looking for is a javascript-based in-browser templating system, then handlebars is a fine choice. I'm not certain on how complex status.html/status.js is, however if you expect it to grow to something more like an application then perhaps looking at angular as a full application framework might help you avoid both this growing pain and future ones (alternatives: Ember, backbone, etc). Honestly, I've not done enough large scale js projects to know whether we'd consider status.js to be big or not. I just know it's definitely getting too big for += all the html together and doing document.writes. I guess the real question I had is is there an incremental path towards any of the other frameworks? I can see how to incrementally bring in templates, but again my personal lack of experience on these others means I don't know. Quick warning though, a lot of the javascript community out there uses tooling that is built on top of Node.js, for which current official packages for Centos/Ubuntu don't exist, and therefore infra won't support it for openstack. Storyboard is able to get around this because it's not actually part of openstack proper, but you might be forced to manage your code manually. That's not a deal breaker in my opinion - it's just more tedious (though I think it might be less tedious than what you're doing right now). I'd ideally like to be able to function without node, mostly because it's another development environment to have to manager. But I realize that's pushing against the current at this point. So I agree, not a deal breaker. -Sean -- Sean Dague Samsung Research America s...@dague.net / sean.da...@samsung.com http://dague.net ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev -- Sincerely yours, Sergey Lukjanov Savanna Technical Lead Mirantis Inc. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [infra] javascript templating library choice for status pages
If you're just using it for client-side templates, you should be able to treat it like any other js library (jquery, etc) without using npm (node's package manager) for installation. Handlebars, for example, has a single downloadable js file that is available on their website: http://builds.handlebarsjs.com.s3.amazonaws.com/handlebars-v1.3.0.js I'm coming in to the conversation without a lot of context, though, so I might be missing some reason why that won't work. As for the incremental approach to using one of the larger frameworks, templates definitely do seem like an incremental improvement that won't really hinder adoption of the larger framework, since most of them are pluggable to work with most of the major template engines last I checked. Greg On Jan 13, 2014, at 7:05 AM, Sean Dague s...@dague.net wrote: On 01/12/2014 09:56 PM, Michael Krotscheck wrote: If all you're looking for is a javascript-based in-browser templating system, then handlebars is a fine choice. I'm not certain on how complex status.html/status.js is, however if you expect it to grow to something more like an application then perhaps looking at angular as a full application framework might help you avoid both this growing pain and future ones (alternatives: Ember, backbone, etc). Honestly, I've not done enough large scale js projects to know whether we'd consider status.js to be big or not. I just know it's definitely getting too big for += all the html together and doing document.writes. I guess the real question I had is is there an incremental path towards any of the other frameworks? I can see how to incrementally bring in templates, but again my personal lack of experience on these others means I don't know. Quick warning though, a lot of the javascript community out there uses tooling that is built on top of Node.js, for which current official packages for Centos/Ubuntu don't exist, and therefore infra won't support it for openstack. Storyboard is able to get around this because it's not actually part of openstack proper, but you might be forced to manage your code manually. That's not a deal breaker in my opinion - it's just more tedious (though I think it might be less tedious than what you're doing right now). I'd ideally like to be able to function without node, mostly because it's another development environment to have to manager. But I realize that's pushing against the current at this point. So I agree, not a deal breaker. -Sean -- Sean Dague Samsung Research America s...@dague.net / sean.da...@samsung.com http://dague.net ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [infra] javascript templating library choice for status pages
On 01/13/2014 05:05 AM, Sean Dague wrote: On 01/12/2014 09:56 PM, Michael Krotscheck wrote: If all you're looking for is a javascript-based in-browser templating system, then handlebars is a fine choice. I'm not certain on how complex status.html/status.js is, however if you expect it to grow to something more like an application then perhaps looking at angular as a full application framework might help you avoid both this growing pain and future ones (alternatives: Ember, backbone, etc). Honestly, I've not done enough large scale js projects to know whether we'd consider status.js to be big or not. I just know it's definitely getting too big for += all the html together and doing document.writes. I guess the real question I had is is there an incremental path towards any of the other frameworks? I can see how to incrementally bring in templates, but again my personal lack of experience on these others means I don't know. Quick warning though, a lot of the javascript community out there uses tooling that is built on top of Node.js, for which current official packages for Centos/Ubuntu don't exist, and therefore infra won't support it for openstack. Storyboard is able to get around this because it's not actually part of openstack proper, but you might be forced to manage your code manually. That's not a deal breaker in my opinion - it's just more tedious (though I think it might be less tedious than what you're doing right now). I'd ideally like to be able to function without node, mostly because it's another development environment to have to manager. But I realize that's pushing against the current at this point. So I agree, not a deal breaker. Yeah - as a quick note though, just for clarity - this is only talking about node as a dev/build time depend - not a runtime depend. I think, given that we seem to be doing more and more with javascript, that we might should just bite the bullet and learn the toolchain - I'm starting feel that doing all the js stuff without it is like the crazy python people who refuse to touch pip for some reason. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [infra] javascript templating library choice for status pages
Just to make a context for this discussion, here are the two files that where're speaking about: https://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/config/tree/modules/openstack_project/files/zuul/status.html https://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/config/tree/modules/openstack_project/files/zuul/status.js On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 7:55 PM, Sergey Lukjanov slukja...@mirantis.comwrote: Currently, we already have a simple status page in zuul repo and status page in infra/config, probably, we should think about moving them to the separated repo and merge their functionality and in this case it'll be easy to use any actual js tools. Otherwise it'll be not really straightforward to have internal node.js project in mostly-puppet infra/config or python zuul. On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Monty Taylor mord...@inaugust.comwrote: On 01/13/2014 05:05 AM, Sean Dague wrote: On 01/12/2014 09:56 PM, Michael Krotscheck wrote: If all you're looking for is a javascript-based in-browser templating system, then handlebars is a fine choice. I'm not certain on how complex status.html/status.js is, however if you expect it to grow to something more like an application then perhaps looking at angular as a full application framework might help you avoid both this growing pain and future ones (alternatives: Ember, backbone, etc). Honestly, I've not done enough large scale js projects to know whether we'd consider status.js to be big or not. I just know it's definitely getting too big for += all the html together and doing document.writes. I guess the real question I had is is there an incremental path towards any of the other frameworks? I can see how to incrementally bring in templates, but again my personal lack of experience on these others means I don't know. Quick warning though, a lot of the javascript community out there uses tooling that is built on top of Node.js, for which current official packages for Centos/Ubuntu don't exist, and therefore infra won't support it for openstack. Storyboard is able to get around this because it's not actually part of openstack proper, but you might be forced to manage your code manually. That's not a deal breaker in my opinion - it's just more tedious (though I think it might be less tedious than what you're doing right now). I'd ideally like to be able to function without node, mostly because it's another development environment to have to manager. But I realize that's pushing against the current at this point. So I agree, not a deal breaker. Yeah - as a quick note though, just for clarity - this is only talking about node as a dev/build time depend - not a runtime depend. I think, given that we seem to be doing more and more with javascript, that we might should just bite the bullet and learn the toolchain - I'm starting feel that doing all the js stuff without it is like the crazy python people who refuse to touch pip for some reason. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev -- Sincerely yours, Sergey Lukjanov Savanna Technical Lead Mirantis Inc. -- Sincerely yours, Sergey Lukjanov Savanna Technical Lead Mirantis Inc. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [infra] javascript templating library choice for status pages
On 01/12/2014 09:56 PM, Michael Krotscheck wrote: If all you're looking for is a javascript-based in-browser templating system, then handlebars is a fine choice. I'm not certain on how complex status.html/status.js is, however if you expect it to grow to something more like an application then perhaps looking at angular as a full application framework might help you avoid both this growing pain and future ones (alternatives: Ember, backbone, etc). For reference, you can find status.html / status.js here: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/config/tree/modules/openstack_project/files/zuul -- Russell Bryant ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [infra] javascript templating library choice for status pages
On 01/13/2014 05:05 AM, Sean Dague wrote:
Honestly, I've not done enough large scale js projects to know whether
we'd consider status.js to be big or not. I just know it's definitely
getting too big for += all the html together and doing document.writes.
Yes indeed.
I guess the real question I had is is there an incremental path
towards any of the other frameworks? I can see how to incrementally
bring in templates, but again my personal lack of experience on these
others means I don't know.
Short answer: Yes, and the incremental path will be more/less difficult
depending on which application framework you want to move to. [/captain
obvious]
Long answer: Pretty much all the template frameworks out there use
{{mustache-style}} syntax. Some application frameworks use handlebars
directly (ember), for some it's pluggable (knockout), others have their
own framework with similar markup (angular). From what I saw of
status.js, it's really not complicated enough to preclude a refactor to
any of the above.
Michael
Also, what Monty said.
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Re: [openstack-dev] [infra] javascript templating library choice for status pages
On 01/13/2014 03:06 PM, Michael Krotscheck wrote:
On 01/13/2014 05:05 AM, Sean Dague wrote:
Honestly, I've not done enough large scale js projects to know whether
we'd consider status.js to be big or not. I just know it's definitely
getting too big for += all the html together and doing document.writes.
Yes indeed.
I guess the real question I had is is there an incremental path
towards any of the other frameworks? I can see how to incrementally
bring in templates, but again my personal lack of experience on these
others means I don't know.
Short answer: Yes, and the incremental path will be more/less difficult
depending on which application framework you want to move to. [/captain
obvious]
Long answer: Pretty much all the template frameworks out there use
{{mustache-style}} syntax. Some application frameworks use handlebars
directly (ember), for some it's pluggable (knockout), others have their
own framework with similar markup (angular). From what I saw of
status.js, it's really not complicated enough to preclude a refactor to
any of the above.
Michael
Also, what Monty said.
Well, as an expert in the area, particular recommendations would be
appreciated. I don't feel like we necessarily need one answer, but it
would be nice knock some of the options off the table.
-Sean
--
Sean Dague
http://dague.net
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Re: [openstack-dev] [infra] javascript templating library choice for status pages
On 01/13/2014 01:12 PM, Sean Dague wrote: Well, as an expert in the area, particular recommendations would be appreciated. I don't feel like we necessarily need one answer, but it would be nice knock some of the options off the table. I'd say: Start with handlebars, unless you want to lay application groundwork, in which case you should try angular.js. The former will be much, much faster, and have a shallower learning curve. Michael ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [infra] javascript templating library choice for status pages
@Michael, very nice conclusion, absolutely agree. On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Michael Krotscheck krotsch...@gmail.comwrote: On 01/13/2014 01:12 PM, Sean Dague wrote: Well, as an expert in the area, particular recommendations would be appreciated. I don't feel like we necessarily need one answer, but it would be nice knock some of the options off the table. I'd say: Start with handlebars, unless you want to lay application groundwork, in which case you should try angular.js. The former will be much, much faster, and have a shallower learning curve. Michael ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev -- Sincerely yours, Sergey Lukjanov Savanna Technical Lead Mirantis Inc. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [infra] javascript templating library choice for status pages
On 01/11/2014 09:56 AM, Sean Dague wrote: As someone that's done a decent amount of hacking on status.html/status.js, I think we're getting to a level of complexity on our JS status pages that we should probably stop doing this all inline (probably should have stopped a while ago). I'd like to propose that we pick some javascript templating framework, and start incrementally porting bits over there over time. Yes. I believe we're at that point. I've also been learning about js dev and build toolchains, such as grunt, and I've been thinking that status.js might want to be in its own repo. My current thought is - http://handlebarsjs.com/ - mostly because it's only a template library, won't cause us to do a complete rewrite, and we can move it in in parts. Other opinions are welcome. storyboard and horizon are both doing things with angular. But if we get an ACK on some approach, we can then start phasing it in, vs. the current state of the art which is way too much string append. Michael - any thoughts? ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [infra] javascript templating library choice for status pages
If all you're looking for is a javascript-based in-browser templating system, then handlebars is a fine choice. I'm not certain on how complex status.html/status.js is, however if you expect it to grow to something more like an application then perhaps looking at angular as a full application framework might help you avoid both this growing pain and future ones (alternatives: Ember, backbone, etc). Quick warning though, a lot of the javascript community out there uses tooling that is built on top of Node.js, for which current official packages for Centos/Ubuntu don't exist, and therefore infra won't support it for openstack. Storyboard is able to get around this because it's not actually part of openstack proper, but you might be forced to manage your code manually. That's not a deal breaker in my opinion - it's just more tedious (though I think it might be less tedious than what you're doing right now). Michael On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 5:21 PM, Monty Taylor mord...@inaugust.com wrote: On 01/11/2014 09:56 AM, Sean Dague wrote: As someone that's done a decent amount of hacking on status.html/status.js, I think we're getting to a level of complexity on our JS status pages that we should probably stop doing this all inline (probably should have stopped a while ago). I'd like to propose that we pick some javascript templating framework, and start incrementally porting bits over there over time. Yes. I believe we're at that point. I've also been learning about js dev and build toolchains, such as grunt, and I've been thinking that status.js might want to be in its own repo. My current thought is - http://handlebarsjs.com/ - mostly because it's only a template library, won't cause us to do a complete rewrite, and we can move it in in parts. Other opinions are welcome. storyboard and horizon are both doing things with angular. But if we get an ACK on some approach, we can then start phasing it in, vs. the current state of the art which is way too much string append. Michael - any thoughts? ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
[openstack-dev] [infra] javascript templating library choice for status pages
As someone that's done a decent amount of hacking on status.html/status.js, I think we're getting to a level of complexity on our JS status pages that we should probably stop doing this all inline (probably should have stopped a while ago). I'd like to propose that we pick some javascript templating framework, and start incrementally porting bits over there over time. My current thought is - http://handlebarsjs.com/ - mostly because it's only a template library, won't cause us to do a complete rewrite, and we can move it in in parts. Other opinions are welcome. But if we get an ACK on some approach, we can then start phasing it in, vs. the current state of the art which is way too much string append. -Sean -- Sean Dague Samsung Research America s...@dague.net / sean.da...@samsung.com http://dague.net ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
