Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT
On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Keith Bray wrote: > Steve, agreed. Your description I believe is the conclusion that the > community came to when this was perviously discussed, and we managed to get > the implementation of parameter grouping and ordering [1] that you > mentioned which has been very helpful. I don't think we landed the > keywords blueprint [2], which may be controversial because it is > essentially unstructured. I wanted to make sure Mike had the links for > historical context, but certainly understand and appreciate your point of > view here. I wasn't able to find the email threads to point Mike to, but > assume they exist in the list archives somewhere. > > We proposed another specific piece of template data [3] which I can't > remember whether it was met with resistance or we just didn't get to > implementing it since we knew we would have to store other data specific to > our uses cases in other files anyway. We decided to go with storing our > extra information in a catalog (really just a Git repo with a README.MD[4]) > for now until we can implement acceptable catalog functionality > somewhere like Glance, hopefully in the Juno cycle. When we want to share > the template, we share all the files in the repo (inclusive of the > README.MD). It would be more ideal if we could share a single file > (package) inclusive of the template and corresponding help text and any > other UI hint info that would helpful. I expect service providers to have > differing views of the extra data they want to store with a template... So > it'd just be nice to have a way to account for service providers to store > their unique data along with a template that is easy to share and is part > of the template package. We bring up portability and structured data > often, but I'm starting to realize that portability of a template breaks > down unless every service provider runs exactly the same Heat resources, > same image IDs, flavor types, etc.). I'd like to drive more standardization > of data for image and template data into Glance so that in HOT we can just > declare things like "Linux, Flavor Ubuntu, latest LTS, minimum 1Gig" and > automatically discover and choose the right image to provision, or error if > a suitable match can not be found. > Yes, this is exactly the use case that has been driving our consideration of the artifacts resource in Glance. You mentioned discovery of compatible resources. I think its an important use case, but I think the export and import approach can also be very useful and I'd like to believe it is the general solution to cloud portability. > The Murano team has been hinting at wanting to solve a similar problem, > but with a broader vision from a complex-multi application declaration > perspective that crosses multiple templates or is a layer above just > matching to what capabilities Heat resources provide and matching against > capabilities that a catalog of templates provide (and mix that with > capabilities the cloud API services provide). I'm not yet convinced that > can't be done with a parent Heat template since we already have the > declarative constructs and language well defined, but I appreciate the use > case and perspective those folks are bringing to the conversation. > > [1] > https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/parameter-grouping-ordering > https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/UI#Parameter_Grouping_and_Ordering > > [2] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/stack-keywords > https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/UI#Stack_Keywords > > [3] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/add-help-text-to-template > https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/UI#Help_Text > > [4] Ex. Help Text accompanying a template in README.MD format: > https://github.com/rackspace-orchestration-templates/docker > > -Keith > > From: Steven Dake > > Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" < > openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> > Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014 10:30 AM > > To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" < > openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT > > On 04/02/2014 08:41 PM, Keith Bray wrote: > > https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/StackMetadata > > https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/UI > > -Keith > > Keith, > > Taking a look at the UI specification, I thought I'd take a look at adding > parameter grouping and ordering to the hot_spec.rst file. That seems like > a really nice constrained use case with a clear way to validate that folks > aren't adding magic to the template for the
Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT
Excerpts from Mike Spreitzer's message of 2014-04-03 11:05:10 -0700:
> Clint Byrum wrote on 04/03/2014 01:10:30 PM:
>
> > Things that affect the stack as a whole really belong in the stack
> > API. That would also put them in the OS::Heat::Stack resource, so the
> > template language already supports that.
>
> The OS::Heat::Stack resource is one of several that create nested stacks;
> we should be able to apply holistic scheduling to all stacks, regardless
> of whether they are nest or which kind of nested stack they are.
> Yes, if holistic scheduling were a feature in the Heat API then all kinds
> of
> resources that create nested stacks "should" expose that feature
> (shout out to Trove, autoscaling groups, ...).
>
> > As for policies which might affect a holistic scheduler, those can just
> > be resources as well. Just like deployments relate to servers, resources
> > can relate to any policies they need.
>
> A holistic scheduler needs input that describes all the resources to be
> scheduled as well as all the policies that apply. Should a template
> contain a resource whose input includes a copy of the rest of the
> template?
>
Are you suggesting that a scheduler should try and parse the template
itself? Or that the scheduler would take over scheduling which
heat-engine takes the work? The whole question raises many more
questions, and I wonder if there's just something you haven't told us
about this use case. :-P
A holistic scheduler is meant to relate things. Templates relate things
naturally, so doing it with resources seems obvious to me.
Something like OS::Scheduler::ResourceGroup which would inform the
scheduler that a grouping is needed. And then the resources all are
part of that group via their properties, something like 'resource_group:
{get_resource: group1}'. If there's a policy for that group that I want
applied, that is a policy that would also refer to the group and inform
the scheduler that this group gets this policy.
For instances where the whole stack needs to be considered in a group,
this is where I suggest that all resources should just be added to the
group. When we have proof that this approach works, we can talk about
introducing shorthand for it.
What I don't want to see is a special template section which introduces
unnecessary complexity before we have concrete evidence that the approach
is viable.
> > I would prefer that we focus on making HOT composable rather than
> > extensible. If there is actually something missing from the root of the
> > language, then it should be in the language. Use cases should almost
> > always try to find a way to work as resources first, and then if that
> > is unwieldy, look into language enhancements to factor things out.
>
> Yeah, I would too. Like I said, I have no satisfactory solution yet. Here
> is more of the problem. I would like to follow an evolutionary path
> starting from the instance groups that are in Nova today. I think I can
> outline such an evolution. I am sure there will be debate about it. I am
> even more sure that it will take time to accomplish that evolution. OTOH,
> locally we have a holistic scheduler already working. We want to be able
> to start using it today. What can we do in this interim, and how can we
> arrange things to do progressive convergence so that the interim solution
> evolves as Nova & scheduling evolve, so that there is no big switch at the
> end to the end solution?
Big switches are fine as long as they're simplifications. So if we make
you be explicit about the groupings today, but then you find that you
have many stacks where everything is in fact in one group, then you can
make a clear argument for a root level item to set a property on all
resources which support it, which I think is the right way to go.
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Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT
> From: Keith Bray > To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" > > Date: 03/04/2014 19:51 > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT > > Steve, agreed. Your description I believe is the conclusion that > the community came to when this was perviously discussed, and we > managed to get the implementation of parameter grouping and ordering > [1] that you mentioned which has been very helpful. I don't think > we landed the keywords blueprint [2], which may be controversial > because it is essentially unstructured. I wanted to make sure Mike > had the links for historical context, but certainly understand and > appreciate your point of view here. I wasn't able to find the email > threads to point Mike to, but assume they exist in the list archives > somewhere. > > We proposed another specific piece of template data [3] which I > can't remember whether it was met with resistance or we just didn't > get to implementing it since we knew we would have to store other > data specific to our uses cases in other files anyway. We decided > to go with storing our extra information in a catalog (really just a > Git repo with a README.MD [4]) for now until we can implement > acceptable catalog functionality somewhere like Glance, hopefully in > the Juno cycle. When we want to share the template, we share all > the files in the repo (inclusive of the README.MD). It would be > more ideal if we could share a single file (package) inclusive of > the template and corresponding help text and any other UI hint info > that would helpful. I expect service providers to have differing I agree that packaging all stuff that makes up a template (which will in many cases not be a single template file, but nested templates, environments, scripts, ...) in one archive. We have this concept in TOSCA and I am sure we will have to implement a solution for this as part of the TOSCA YAML to HOT converter work that we started. If several people see this requirement, let's see if we can join forces on a common solution. > views of the extra data they want to store with a template... So > it'd just be nice to have a way to account for service providers to > store their unique data along with a template that is easy to share > and is part of the template package. We bring up portability and > structured data often, but I'm starting to realize that portability > of a template breaks down unless every service provider runs exactly > the same Heat resources, same image IDs, flavor types, etc.). I'd > like to drive more standardization of data for image and template > data into Glance so that in HOT we can just declare things like > "Linux, Flavor Ubuntu, latest LTS, minimum 1Gig" and automatically > discover and choose the right image to provision, or error if a > suitable match can not be found. The Murano team has been hinting Sahdev from our team recently created a BP for exactly that scenario. Please have a look and see if that is in line with your thinking and provide comments as necessary: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/constraint-based-flavors-and-images > at wanting to solve a similar problem, but with a broader vision > from a complex-multi application declaration perspective that > crosses multiple templates or is a layer above just matching to what > capabilities Heat resources provide and matching against > capabilities that a catalog of templates provide (and mix that with > capabilities the cloud API services provide). I'm not yet convinced > that can't be done with a parent Heat template since we already have > the declarative constructs and language well defined, but I > appreciate the use case and perspective those folks are bringing to > the conversation. > > [1] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/parameter-grouping-ordering > https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/UI#Parameter_Grouping_and_Ordering > > [2] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/stack-keywords > https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/UI#Stack_Keywords > > [3] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/add-help-text-to-template > https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/UI#Help_Text > > [4] Ex. Help Text accompanying a template in README.MD format: > https://github.com/rackspace-orchestration-templates/docker > > -Keith > > From: Steven Dake > Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" < > openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> > Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014 10:30 AM > To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" < > openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT > > On 0
Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT
Keith Bray wrote on 04/03/2014 01:50:28 PM: > We proposed another specific piece of template data [3] which I > can't remember whether it was met with resistance or we just didn't > get to implementing it since we knew we would have to store other > data specific to our uses cases in other files anyway. We decided > to go with storing our extra information in a catalog (really just a > Git repo with a README.MD [4]) for now until we can implement > acceptable catalog functionality somewhere like Glance, hopefully in > the Juno cycle. When we want to share the template, we share all > the files in the repo (inclusive of the README.MD). It would be > more ideal if we could share a single file (package) inclusive of > the template and corresponding help text and any other UI hint info > that would helpful. I expect service providers to have differing > views of the extra data they want to store with a template... So > it'd just be nice to have a way to account for service providers to > store their unique data along with a template that is easy to share > and is part of the template package. We bring up portability and > structured data often, but I'm starting to realize that portability > of a template breaks down unless every service provider runs exactly > the same Heat resources, same image IDs, flavor types, etc.). I'd > like to drive more standardization of data for image and template > data into Glance so that in HOT we can just declare things like > "Linux, Flavor Ubuntu, latest LTS, minimum 1Gig" and automatically > discover and choose the right image to provision, or error if a > suitable match can not be found. The Murano team has been hinting > at wanting to solve a similar problem, but with a broader vision > from a complex-multi application declaration perspective that > crosses multiple templates or is a layer above just matching to what > capabilities Heat resources provide and matching against > capabilities that a catalog of templates provide (and mix that with > capabilities the cloud API services provide). I'm not yet convinced > that can't be done with a parent Heat template since we already have > the declarative constructs and language well defined, but I > appreciate the use case and perspective those folks are bringing to > the conversation. Keith, thanks for the background and wider context. I am responding directly on my original point elsewhere, but let me pick up on a couple of things you mentioned in your wider context. I definitely see a reason for interest in packaging something bigger than a single template. As one very simple example, I have been exercising OS::Heat::AutoScalingGroup with a pair of templates (an outer template in which the ASG is a resource, where the element being scaled is a nested stack, prescribed by the other template in my package). Since we are so fond here of solving problems with nested templates, I think there will be an increasing need to package together not only templates but also environment snippets (and, yeah, we need to smooth out how the receiver combines environment snippets). I agree that template portability is problematic due to the non-portability of image UUIDs and flavors. The approach you pointed towards looks attractive, but it is challenging to enable a template author to write a specification that is not too precise and not too liberal --- particularly since the template author has a hard time anticipating the creativity with which the receiving environment is populated. I assume this has been extensively discussed already. If not I may make some noise later. Thanks, Mike___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT
Clint Byrum wrote on 04/03/2014 01:10:30 PM: > Things that affect the stack as a whole really belong in the stack > API. That would also put them in the OS::Heat::Stack resource, so the > template language already supports that. The OS::Heat::Stack resource is one of several that create nested stacks; we should be able to apply holistic scheduling to all stacks, regardless of whether they are nest or which kind of nested stack they are. Yes, if holistic scheduling were a feature in the Heat API then all kinds of resources that create nested stacks "should" expose that feature (shout out to Trove, autoscaling groups, ...). > As for policies which might affect a holistic scheduler, those can just > be resources as well. Just like deployments relate to servers, resources > can relate to any policies they need. A holistic scheduler needs input that describes all the resources to be scheduled as well as all the policies that apply. Should a template contain a resource whose input includes a copy of the rest of the template? > I would prefer that we focus on making HOT composable rather than > extensible. If there is actually something missing from the root of the > language, then it should be in the language. Use cases should almost > always try to find a way to work as resources first, and then if that > is unwieldy, look into language enhancements to factor things out. Yeah, I would too. Like I said, I have no satisfactory solution yet. Here is more of the problem. I would like to follow an evolutionary path starting from the instance groups that are in Nova today. I think I can outline such an evolution. I am sure there will be debate about it. I am even more sure that it will take time to accomplish that evolution. OTOH, locally we have a holistic scheduler already working. We want to be able to start using it today. What can we do in this interim, and how can we arrange things to do progressive convergence so that the interim solution evolves as Nova & scheduling evolve, so that there is no big switch at the end to the end solution? Thanks, Mike___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT
Steve, agreed. Your description I believe is the conclusion that the community came to when this was perviously discussed, and we managed to get the implementation of parameter grouping and ordering [1] that you mentioned which has been very helpful. I don't think we landed the keywords blueprint [2], which may be controversial because it is essentially unstructured. I wanted to make sure Mike had the links for historical context, but certainly understand and appreciate your point of view here. I wasn't able to find the email threads to point Mike to, but assume they exist in the list archives somewhere. We proposed another specific piece of template data [3] which I can't remember whether it was met with resistance or we just didn't get to implementing it since we knew we would have to store other data specific to our uses cases in other files anyway. We decided to go with storing our extra information in a catalog (really just a Git repo with a README.MD [4]) for now until we can implement acceptable catalog functionality somewhere like Glance, hopefully in the Juno cycle. When we want to share the template, we share all the files in the repo (inclusive of the README.MD). It would be more ideal if we could share a single file (package) inclusive of the template and corresponding help text and any other UI hint info that would helpful. I expect service providers to have differing views of the extra data they want to store with a template... So it'd just be nice to have a way to account for service providers to store their unique data along with a template that is easy to share and is part of the template package. We bring up portability and structured data often, but I'm starting to realize that portability of a template breaks down unless every service provider runs exactly the same Heat resources, same image IDs, flavor types, etc.). I'd like to drive more standardization of data for image and template data into Glance so that in HOT we can just declare things like "Linux, Flavor Ubuntu, latest LTS, minimum 1Gig" and automatically discover and choose the right image to provision, or error if a suitable match can not be found. The Murano team has been hinting at wanting to solve a similar problem, but with a broader vision from a complex-multi application declaration perspective that crosses multiple templates or is a layer above just matching to what capabilities Heat resources provide and matching against capabilities that a catalog of templates provide (and mix that with capabilities the cloud API services provide). I'm not yet convinced that can't be done with a parent Heat template since we already have the declarative constructs and language well defined, but I appreciate the use case and perspective those folks are bringing to the conversation. [1] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/parameter-grouping-ordering https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/UI#Parameter_Grouping_and_Ordering [2] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/stack-keywords https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/UI#Stack_Keywords [3] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/add-help-text-to-template https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/UI#Help_Text [4] Ex. Help Text accompanying a template in README.MD format: https://github.com/rackspace-orchestration-templates/docker -Keith From: Steven Dake mailto:sd...@redhat.com>> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014 10:30 AM To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT On 04/02/2014 08:41 PM, Keith Bray wrote: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/StackMetadata https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/UI -Keith Keith, Taking a look at the UI specification, I thought I'd take a look at adding parameter grouping and ordering to the hot_spec.rst file. That seems like a really nice constrained use case with a clear way to validate that folks aren't adding magic to the template for their custom environments. During that, I noticed it is is already implemented. What is nice about this specific use case is it is something that can be validated by the parser. For example, the parser could enforce that parameters in the parameter-groups section actually exist as parameters in the parameters section. Essentially this particular use case *enforces* good heat template implementation without an opportunity for HOT template developers to jam customized data blobs into the template. Stack keywords on the other hand doesn't necessarily follow this model. I understand the use case, but it would be possible to jam unstructured metadata into the template. That said, the limitations on the ja
Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT
Excerpts from Mike Spreitzer's message of 2014-04-02 22:10:21 -0700: > Zane Bitter wrote on 04/02/2014 05:36:43 PM: > > > I think that if you're going to propose a new feature, you should at > > least give us a clue who you think is going to use it and what for ;) > > I was not eager to do that yet because I have not found a fully > satisfactory answer yet, at this point I am exploring options. But the > problem I am thinking about is how Heat might connect to a holistic > scheduler (a scheduler that makes a joint decision about a bunch of > resources of various types). Such a scheduler needs input describing the > things to be scheduled and the policies to apply in scheduling; the first > half of that sounds a lot like a Heat template, so my thoughts go in that > direction. But the HOT language today (since > https://review.openstack.org/#/c/83758/ was merged) does not have a place > to put policy that is not specific to a single resource. > Things that affect the stack as a whole really belong in the stack API. That would also put them in the OS::Heat::Stack resource, so the template language already supports that. As for policies which might affect a holistic scheduler, those can just be resources as well. Just like deployments relate to servers, resources can relate to any policies they need. > > IIRC this has been discussed in the past and the justifications for > > including it in the template (as opposed to allowing metadata to be > > attached in the ReST API, as other projects already do for many things) > > were not compelling. > > I see that Keith Bray mentioned > https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/StackMetadata and > https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/UI in another reply on this thread. > Are there additional places to look to find that discussion? > > I have also heard that there has been discussion of language extension > issues. Is that a separate discussion and, if so, where can I read it? I would prefer that we focus on making HOT composable rather than extensible. If there is actually something missing from the root of the language, then it should be in the language. Use cases should almost always try to find a way to work as resources first, and then if that is unwieldy, look into language enhancements to factor things out. I think the way hot-software-config has taken shape is a prime example of this. We took the most common patterns and made a set of resources that encapsulate them. But we didn't have to extend the language any. It is all done in resources. (Kudos to Steve Baker for getting it done btw, this was _not_ a small amount of work). ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT
Excerpts from Thomas Spatzier's message of 2014-04-03 08:36:20 -0700: > > From: Mike Spreitzer > > To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List \(not for usage questions\)" > > > > Date: 03/04/2014 07:10 > > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT > > > > Zane Bitter wrote on 04/02/2014 05:36:43 PM: > > > > > I think that if you're going to propose a new feature, you should at > > > least give us a clue who you think is going to use it and what for ;) > > > > I was not eager to do that yet because I have not found a fully > > satisfactory answer yet, at this point I am exploring options. But > > the problem I am thinking about is how Heat might connect to a > > holistic scheduler (a scheduler that makes a joint decision about a > > bunch of resources of various types). Such a scheduler needs input > > describing the things to be scheduled and the policies to apply in > > scheduling; the first half of that sounds a lot like a Heat > > template, so my thoughts go in that direction. But the HOT language > > today (since https://review.openstack.org/#/c/83758/ was merged) > > does not have a place to put policy that is not specific to a > singleresource. > > I think you bring up a specific use case here, i.e. applying "policies" for > placement/scheduling when deploying a stack. This is just a thought, but I > wonder whether it would make more sense to then define a specific extension > to HOT instead of having a generic metadata section and stuffing everything > that does not fit into other places into metadata. > Ever read about Larry "no modes" Tesler? Read up on his arguments against modes. I would much prefer any policies to be actual resources which the resources interact with, rather than template wide modes. > I mean, the use case Keith brought up are completely different (UI and user > related), and I understand both use cases. But is the idea to put just > everything into metadata, or would different classes of use cases justify > different section? The latter would enforce better documentation of > semantics. If everyhing goes into a metadata section, the contents also > need to be clearly specified. Otherwise, the resulting template won't be > portable. Ok, the standard HOT stuff will be portable, but not the > metadata, so no two users will be able to interpret it the same way. > We had a fairly long debate about keywords and meta-information in HOT and I thought we came to the conclusion that it belongs in the API and not in the template language. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT
On 04/02/2014 08:41 PM, Keith Bray wrote: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/StackMetadata https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/UI -Keith Keith, Taking a look at the UI specification, I thought I'd take a look at adding parameter grouping and ordering to the hot_spec.rst file. That seems like a really nice constrained use case with a clear way to validate that folks aren't adding magic to the template for their custom environments. During that, I noticed it is is already implemented. What is nice about this specific use case is it is something that can be validated by the parser. For example, the parser could enforce that parameters in the parameter-groups section actually exist as parameters in the parameters section. Essentially this particular use case *enforces* good heat template implementation without an opportunity for HOT template developers to jam customized data blobs into the template. Stack keywords on the other hand doesn't necessarily follow this model. I understand the use case, but it would be possible to jam unstructured metadata into the template. That said, the limitations on the jamming custom metadata are one deep and it has a clear use case (categorization of templates for support/UI rendering purposes). I could be wrong, but I think the aversion to a general metadata section is centered around the problem of different people doing different things in a non-standardized way. I think if we were to revisit the metadata proposal, one thing that might lead to a more successful outcome is actually defining what goes in the metadata, rather then allowing the metadata to be completely free-form as the HOT developer sees fit to implement it. For example just taking the keywords proposal: metadata: composed_of: - wordpress - mysql architecture: - lamp Even though this metadata can't necessarily be validated, it can be documented. I definitely have a -2 aversion to free-form metadata structuring, and am +0 on allowing the information to be declared in a non-validated way. I don't believe the idea of structured metadata based upon real use cases has really been explored or -2'ed. Regards, -steve From: Lingxian Kong mailto:anlin.k...@gmail.com>> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" <mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Date: Wednesday, April 2, 2014 9:31 PM To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" <mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT Is there any relevant wiki or specification doc? 2014-04-03 4:45 GMT+08:00 Mike Spreitzer mailto:mspre...@us.ibm.com>>: I would like to suggest that a metadata section be allowed at the top level of a HOT. Note that while resources in a stack can have metadata, there is no way to put metadata on a stack itself. What do you think? Thanks, Mike ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org <mailto:OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev -- *---* *Lingxian Kong* Huawei Technologies Co.,LTD. IT Product Line CloudOS PDU China, Xi'an Mobile: +86-18602962792 Email: konglingx...@huawei.com <mailto:konglingx...@huawei.com>; anlin.k...@gmail.com <mailto:anlin.k...@gmail.com> ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT
> From: Mike Spreitzer > To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List \(not for usage questions\)" > > Date: 03/04/2014 07:10 > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT > > Zane Bitter wrote on 04/02/2014 05:36:43 PM: > > > I think that if you're going to propose a new feature, you should at > > least give us a clue who you think is going to use it and what for ;) > > I was not eager to do that yet because I have not found a fully > satisfactory answer yet, at this point I am exploring options. But > the problem I am thinking about is how Heat might connect to a > holistic scheduler (a scheduler that makes a joint decision about a > bunch of resources of various types). Such a scheduler needs input > describing the things to be scheduled and the policies to apply in > scheduling; the first half of that sounds a lot like a Heat > template, so my thoughts go in that direction. But the HOT language > today (since https://review.openstack.org/#/c/83758/ was merged) > does not have a place to put policy that is not specific to a singleresource. I think you bring up a specific use case here, i.e. applying "policies" for placement/scheduling when deploying a stack. This is just a thought, but I wonder whether it would make more sense to then define a specific extension to HOT instead of having a generic metadata section and stuffing everything that does not fit into other places into metadata. I mean, the use case Keith brought up are completely different (UI and user related), and I understand both use cases. But is the idea to put just everything into metadata, or would different classes of use cases justify different section? The latter would enforce better documentation of semantics. If everyhing goes into a metadata section, the contents also need to be clearly specified. Otherwise, the resulting template won't be portable. Ok, the standard HOT stuff will be portable, but not the metadata, so no two users will be able to interpret it the same way. > > > IIRC this has been discussed in the past and the justifications for > > including it in the template (as opposed to allowing metadata to be > > attached in the ReST API, as other projects already do for many things) > > were not compelling. > > I see that Keith Bray mentioned https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ > Heat/StackMetadata and https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/UI in > another reply on this thread. Are there additional places to look > to find that discussion? > > I have also heard that there has been discussion of language > extension issues. Is that a separate discussion and, if so, where > can I read it? > > Thanks, > Mike > ___ > OpenStack-dev mailing list > OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT
Zane Bitter wrote on 04/02/2014 05:36:43 PM: > I think that if you're going to propose a new feature, you should at > least give us a clue who you think is going to use it and what for ;) I was not eager to do that yet because I have not found a fully satisfactory answer yet, at this point I am exploring options. But the problem I am thinking about is how Heat might connect to a holistic scheduler (a scheduler that makes a joint decision about a bunch of resources of various types). Such a scheduler needs input describing the things to be scheduled and the policies to apply in scheduling; the first half of that sounds a lot like a Heat template, so my thoughts go in that direction. But the HOT language today (since https://review.openstack.org/#/c/83758/ was merged) does not have a place to put policy that is not specific to a single resource. > IIRC this has been discussed in the past and the justifications for > including it in the template (as opposed to allowing metadata to be > attached in the ReST API, as other projects already do for many things) > were not compelling. I see that Keith Bray mentioned https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/StackMetadata and https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/UI in another reply on this thread. Are there additional places to look to find that discussion? I have also heard that there has been discussion of language extension issues. Is that a separate discussion and, if so, where can I read it? Thanks, Mike ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT
https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/StackMetadata https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/UI -Keith From: Lingxian Kong mailto:anlin.k...@gmail.com>> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Date: Wednesday, April 2, 2014 9:31 PM To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT Is there any relevant wiki or specification doc? 2014-04-03 4:45 GMT+08:00 Mike Spreitzer mailto:mspre...@us.ibm.com>>: I would like to suggest that a metadata section be allowed at the top level of a HOT. Note that while resources in a stack can have metadata, there is no way to put metadata on a stack itself. What do you think? Thanks, Mike ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org<mailto:OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev -- --- Lingxian Kong Huawei Technologies Co.,LTD. IT Product Line CloudOS PDU China, Xi'an Mobile: +86-18602962792 Email: konglingx...@huawei.com<mailto:konglingx...@huawei.com>; anlin.k...@gmail.com<mailto:anlin.k...@gmail.com> ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT
Is there any relevant wiki or specification doc? 2014-04-03 4:45 GMT+08:00 Mike Spreitzer : > I would like to suggest that a metadata section be allowed at the top > level of a HOT. Note that while resources in a stack can have metadata, > there is no way to put metadata on a stack itself. What do you think? > > Thanks, > Mike > ___ > OpenStack-dev mailing list > OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > -- *---* *Lingxian Kong* Huawei Technologies Co.,LTD. IT Product Line CloudOS PDU China, Xi'an Mobile: +86-18602962792 Email: konglingx...@huawei.com; anlin.k...@gmail.com ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT
On 02/04/14 16:45, Mike Spreitzer wrote: I would like to suggest that a metadata section be allowed at the top level of a HOT. Note that while resources in a stack can have metadata, there is no way to put metadata on a stack itself. What do you think? I think that if you're going to propose a new feature, you should at least give us a clue who you think is going to use it and what for ;) IIRC this has been discussed in the past and the justifications for including it in the template (as opposed to allowing metadata to be attached in the ReST API, as other projects already do for many things) were not compelling. cheers, Zane. ___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
[openstack-dev] [heat] metadata for a HOT
I would like to suggest that a metadata section be allowed at the top level of a HOT. Note that while resources in a stack can have metadata, there is no way to put metadata on a stack itself. What do you think? Thanks, Mike___ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStack-dev@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
