Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack

2012-04-16 Thread Hua ZZ Zhang 
+1

The exception is used for flow control when it happens. yes, that's right
but not completed.:-)
When you look into the current design of exceptions such as nova
exceptions, they include message content which is meaningful and useful.
Apparently, the exception is not only used for flow control, but also for
showing user why this could happen. It is not bad smell for code or
conflict with MVC design pattern, I think. Add another separate layer is
complex and not necessary. The gettext tookit allow the message to be
translated or untranslated. It depends on the user requirements on this
that we can't ignore.

nova/nova/exception.py:
...
class DecryptionFailure(NovaException):
message = _(Failed to decrypt text)


class ImagePaginationFailed(NovaException):
message = _(Failed to paginate through images from image service)


class VirtualInterfaceCreateException(NovaException):
message = _(Virtual Interface creation failed)


class VirtualInterfaceMacAddressException(NovaException):
message = _(5 attempts to create virtual interface
with unique mac address failed)


class GlanceConnectionFailed(NovaException):
message = _(Connection to glance failed) + : %(reason)s


class MelangeConnectionFailed(NovaException):
message = _(Connection to melange failed) + : %(reason)s
...



Best Regards,

 
 Edward Zhang(张华)地址:北京市海淀区东北旺西路8号 中关村 
 Staff Software Engineer   软件园28号楼 环宇大厦3层 邮编：100193 
 TravelTransportation Standards   Address: 3F Ring, Building 28 
 Emerging Technology Institute(ETI)Zhongguancun Software Park, 8 
 IBM China Software Development LabDongbeiwang West Road, Haidian
 e-mail: zhu...@cn.ibm.com District, Beijing, P.R.C.100193   
 Notes ID: Hua ZZ Zhang/China/IBM
 Tel: 86-10-82450483 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 





   
 Joshua Harlow 
 harlowja@yahoo-i 
 nc.comTo 
   Hua ZZ Zhang/China/IBM@IBMCN,   
 2012-04-13 01:33  Thierry Carrez  
   thie...@openstack.org 
cc 
   openstack-bounces  
   +zhuadl=cn.ibm.com@lists.launchpad. 
   net openstack-bounces
   +zhuadl=cn.ibm.com@lists.launchpad. 
   net, openstack 
   openstack@lists.launchpad.net 
   Subject 
   Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for  
   OpenStack   
   
   
   
   
   
   




So u have just touched on another issue,

I would still say that exception messages should not be translated (+1),
haha.

If this is needed, then there is something wrong with the code and how
exceptions are used instead (ie the bad code smell). Exceptions should be
meant for error control flow, what they were designed for, not for user
facing messages. I think it is more common to have a layer that translates
exceptions into meaningful localized messages, but there needs to be a
separation between exceptions and there localized messages (they should not
be combined). This is a common thing afaik, its called separation of model
and view, aka, mvc, (think of the exceptions

Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack

2012-04-12 Thread Thierry Carrez 
Sean Dague wrote:
 If we want to think about OpenStack as a basic building block like
 Apache, i18n is critical. Otherwise there are regions that won't adopt
 it solely because of a lack of i18n.

Note that Apache HTTPd, for instance, does not seem to internationalize
its error messages. Only the (enduser-facing) HTML pages it gives back
in response to invalid requests are.

 Is there a metric on the completeness so far? Something automated that
 could be a jenkins coverage kind of test?

Oddly enough, it's not a question of completeness of translations.
Piggybacking on the awesome Launchpad Translations community always gave
us great coverage. It's more a code support and CI integration issue.

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack

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Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack

2012-04-12 Thread Thierry Carrez 
Joshua Harlow wrote:
 So there is a question here that I don’t understand.
 
 There a different levels of I18N, for say user facing error messages, or
 for other things I consider UI (horizon).
 
 Those need to be I18N and all that. I think the larger part that I don’t
 understand is why the things that are not the above (log messages) are
 being internationalized.
 
 So what level do we want to have ;) And what level is normal for people
 to expect (do systems like hadoop do I18N on there error messages, do
 other apache projects?)

I agree with you.

Documentation and user-facing interfaces should definitely support I18N.
That means Horizon, and (maybe) the Python client bindings.
Operators-facing log messages... not so much. By internationalizing them
we lose the ability to google for them, and I'm not convinced the
trade-off is favorable for that particular population.

If you come to the design summit and care about this, join us at the
I18N in OpenStack session.

Regards,

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack

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Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack

2012-04-12 Thread Christopher B Ferris 
+1It is important that we distinguish between those who might contribute to the development of OpenStack, who often have advancedlanguage skills, as contrasted with those who might be asked to operate a cloud based on OpenStack. While it may be that the languageof open source development is English, it is not as likely that you'll findsomeone in IT operations at a company in a non-English language speakingcountry who has advanced (and in some cases, any) english language skills. For them, English language log messages might as well have beenwritten in Romulan.As a means of making this real, imagine trying to operate and debug OpenStack if all of the log messages were written in Simple Chinese.Who amongst us could do that, or would much less even attempt it? I rest my case.It is critically important that welocalize as much as possible, including log messages, install and operations manuals as wellas UI components for locales that we would like to see adopt OpenStack. Thorough globalization will be critical to broad adoption of OpenStack,especially in emerging geographies.Cheers,Christopher FerrisIBM Distinguished Engineer, CTO Industry and Cloud StandardsMember, IBM Academy of TechnologyIBM Software Group, Standards Strategyemail: chris...@us.ibm.comTwitter: christo4ferrisphone: +1 508 234 2986-openstack-bounces+chrisfer=us.ibm@lists.launchpad.net wrote: -To: openstack@lists.launchpad.netFrom: Sean Dague <sda...@linux.vnet.ibm.com>Sent by: openstack-bounces+chrisfer=us.ibm@lists.launchpad.netDate: 04/11/2012 03:01PMSubject: Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStackOn 04/11/2012 08:41 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: Sheng Bo Hou wrote: After the research done by my colleage Edward Zhang and myself, we have found the following issues for openstack. We have already raised bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/974810 https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/974810 . [...] Thanks for your analysis. We plan to discuss how to fix and extend I18N at the summit. One question that was raised on the ML in February was whether internationalization was actually worth the effort for infrastructure software like OpenStack. I'll be the first to admit that there are other languages than English, but all our open development is based in English already (bugs, reviews, commit messages, mailing-lists, IRC...), so I don't think supporting more languages in the software itself will help growing our developer community.I would tend to disagree with that. People are more likely to invest their time in software if they'll be able to use it better in their locale. I think this is definitely even more true in places where English has less of a dominant presence. It may even bring people to the table solely interested in helping with translation. I've seen that happen elsewhere. On our users community, do operators of OpenStack need translated error messages ? Given that translations are often incomplete, is it worth it ? What do comparable infrastructure open source software projects provide ? The effort to provide them has proven non-trivial, I'd like to make sure it's time well spent.If we want to think about OpenStack as a basic building block like Apache, i18n is critical. Otherwise there are regions that won't adopt it solely because of a lack of i18n.Is there a metric on the completeness so far? Something automated that could be a jenkins coverage kind of test?	-Sean-- Sean DagueIBM Linux Technology Centeremail: slda...@us.ibm.comalt-email: sda...@linux.vnet.ibm.com___Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstackPost to   : openstack@lists.launchpad.netUnsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstackMore help  : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

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Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack

2012-04-12 Thread Hua ZZ Zhang 
My cents:

Apache HTTP is not so equivelant to OpenStack here. Generally it doesn't
care about the application errors or exceptions thrown by web applications.
In openstack, exceptions have been defined in nova, horizon, keystone etc.
The messages of these exceptions are important for different users to
understand what has happened. These messages always need to be localized,
returned and displayed on user interface, not just be logged in backend
system. It is very common practice for a global software project.

Sean Dague wrote:
 If we want to think about OpenStack as a basic building block like
 Apache, i18n is critical. Otherwise there are regions that won't adopt
 it solely because of a lack of i18n.

Note that Apache HTTPd, for instance, does not seem to internationalize
its error messages. Only the (enduser-facing) HTML pages it gives back
in response to invalid requests are.



Best Regards,

 
 Edward Zhang(张华)地址:北京市海淀区东北旺西路8号 中关村 
 Staff Software Engineer   软件园28号楼 环宇大厦3层 邮编：100193 
 TravelTransportation Standards   Address: 3F Ring, Building 28 
 Emerging Technology Institute(ETI)Zhongguancun Software Park, 8 
 IBM China Software Development LabDongbeiwang West Road, Haidian
 e-mail: zhu...@cn.ibm.com District, Beijing, P.R.C.100193   
 Notes ID: Hua ZZ Zhang/China/IBM
 Tel: 86-10-82450483 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 





   
 Thierry Carrez
 thierry@openstac 
 k.org To 
 Sent by:  openstack@lists.launchpad.net   
 openstack-bounces  cc 
 +zhuadl=cn.ibm.co 
 m@lists.launchpad Subject 
 .net  Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for  
   OpenStack   
   
 2012-04-12 16:47  
   
   
   
   




Sean Dague wrote:
 If we want to think about OpenStack as a basic building block like
 Apache, i18n is critical. Otherwise there are regions that won't adopt
 it solely because of a lack of i18n.

Note that Apache HTTPd, for instance, does not seem to internationalize
its error messages. Only the (enduser-facing) HTML pages it gives back
in response to invalid requests are.

 Is there a metric on the completeness so far? Something automated that
 could be a jenkins coverage kind of test?

Oddly enough, it's not a question of completeness of translations.
Piggybacking on the awesome Launchpad Translations community always gave
us great coverage. It's more a code support and CI integration issue.

--
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack

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Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack

2012-04-12 Thread Soren Hansen 
Den 12. apr. 2012 13.27 skrev Hua ZZ Zhang zhu...@cn.ibm.com:
 These messages always need to be localized,
 returned and displayed on user interface, not just be logged in backend
 system. It is very common practice for a global software project.

OpenStack isn't an interactive application. It's a piece of server
software. I'm struggling to think of any server software that writes
anything in its log files in anything other than English. I'm Danish
and generally configure my servers to speak Danish, so I should have
seen it at least occasionally. Do you have any examples of this
alleged very common practice?

--
Soren Hansen             | http://linux2go.dk/
Senior Software Engineer | http://www.cisco.com/
Ubuntu Developer         | http://www.ubuntu.com/
OpenStack Developer      | http://www.openstack.org/

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Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack

2012-04-12 Thread Soren Hansen 
Don't get me wrong.. I'd be happy to have the various openstack
clients offer localised error messages. I'd also encourage a
centralised effort to collect these translationns (so that all the
various language bindings will use the same localised error messages).

On the server, though, I believe we should stick to English and
perhaps have every error message include a link (e.g.
http://docs.openstack.doc/exception/NoNetworksDefinedException) to a
localised docs site. I think losing the ability to search the web for
error messages would be a major loss.

-- 
Soren Hansen             | http://linux2go.dk/
Senior Software Engineer | http://www.cisco.com/
Ubuntu Developer         | http://www.ubuntu.com/
OpenStack Developer      | http://www.openstack.org/

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Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack

2012-04-12 Thread Sheng Bo Hou 
Dear OpenStack friends,

It will be happy and great for our OpenStack community to see this open 
project open to more market all over the world.
In China, OpenStack community is very active. I heard many Chinese 
engineers talking about their wish to have a Chinese versioned openStack, 
including documentation's, manuals, user interfaces, error messages, etc 
in OpenStack meet-ups. 
I have many European friends and also Danish friends, since I used to do 
my university there. They all spoke perfect English, which made me admire, 
cos they were linguists in my point of view. Oriental languages are 
different. They are too far from the western lingual system. In China, 
there are many talented engineers, who are not that kind of linguists, 
but they are lover of open source. I think it is amazing to open the 
door to them. In China, it is very appreciated for software to be 
localized as much as possible.
I used to google or baidu(a famous Chinese search engine) error messages 
and logs in Chinese for other software, though it is not Apache. I found a 
lot of useful references in Chinese, because it has been localized. If it 
is not localized well first, of course it does not have the google or 
yahoo ability to search.:-)
So far I am rather grateful for all the messages following this i18 issue. 
Thank you so much.

Best wishes.
Vincent Hou (侯胜博)

Software Engineer, Standards Growth Team, Emerging Technology Institute, 
IBM China Software Development Lab

Tel: 86-10-82450778 Fax: 86-10-82453660
Notes ID: Sheng Bo Hou/China/IBM@IBMCNE-mail: sb...@cn.ibm.com 
Address:3F Ring, Building 28 Zhongguancun Software Park, 8 Dongbeiwang 
West Road, Haidian District, Beijing, P.R.C.100193



Soren Hansen so...@linux2go.dk 
Sent by: openstack-bounces+sbhou=cn.ibm@lists.launchpad.net
2012-04-12 19:50

To
Hua ZZ Zhang/China/IBM@IBMCN
cc
openstack@lists.launchpad.net, Thierry Carrez thie...@openstack.org, 
openstack-bounces+zhuadl=cn.ibm@lists.launchpad.net
Subject
Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack






Don't get me wrong.. I'd be happy to have the various openstack
clients offer localised error messages. I'd also encourage a
centralised effort to collect these translationns (so that all the
various language bindings will use the same localised error messages).

On the server, though, I believe we should stick to English and
perhaps have every error message include a link (e.g.
http://docs.openstack.doc/exception/NoNetworksDefinedException) to a
localised docs site. I think losing the ability to search the web for
error messages would be a major loss.

-- 
Soren Hansen | http://linux2go.dk/
Senior Software Engineer | http://www.cisco.com/
Ubuntu Developer | http://www.ubuntu.com/
OpenStack Developer  | http://www.openstack.org/

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Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack

2012-04-12 Thread Sean Dague 

On 04/12/2012 04:52 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:

Joshua Harlow wrote:

So there is a question here that I don’t understand.

There a different levels of I18N, for say user facing error messages, or
for other things I consider UI (horizon).

Those need to be I18N and all that. I think the larger part that I don’t
understand is why the things that are not the above (log messages) are
being internationalized.

So what level do we want to have ;) And what level is normal for people
to expect (do systems like hadoop do I18N on there error messages, do
other apache projects?)


I agree with you.

Documentation and user-facing interfaces should definitely support I18N.
That means Horizon, and (maybe) the Python client bindings.
Operators-facing log messages... not so much. By internationalizing them
we lose the ability to google for them, and I'm not convinced the
trade-off is favorable for that particular population.


As long as user facing interfaces also means command line interface, I 
think we're on the same page.


-Sean

--
Sean Dague
IBM Linux Technology Center
email: slda...@us.ibm.com
alt-email: sda...@linux.vnet.ibm.com


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Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack

2012-04-12 Thread David Kranz 
Both points of view being expressed about this with respect to log error 
messages are valid and need to be accommodated.
An answer, as was suggested a while back, is for error messages to have 
two parts:


1. A locale-independent part that can be used for searches or understood 
by developers who get logs as parts of bug reports.
2.  A localized part that lets operators determine if the problem is 
their issue or an OpenStack bug to be reported.


The current English string would serve the first role, and the logging 
code could be changed to also emit the localized string if available. I 
would argue

for this only in the case of ERROR messages and not DEBUG.

While on the subject of logs, it would be good to agree on what actions 
should cause errors in logs to appear. Ideally, they would only occur if 
an OpenStack bug
was detected (out-of-bounds array ref, etc.) or some operational problem 
occurred (disk ran out of space, etc.). Right now errors are sometimes 
output for other
reasons such as bad arguments to api calls. This makes it difficult for 
an operator to know when a real problem with the system has occurred.


David Kranz
Quanta Research Cambridge




On 4/12/2012 9:06 AM, Sheng Bo Hou wrote:

Dear OpenStack friends,

It will be happy and great for our OpenStack community to see this 
open project open to more market all over the world.
In China, OpenStack community is very active. I heard many Chinese 
engineers talking about their wish to have a Chinese versioned 
openStack, including documentation's, manuals, user interfaces, error 
messages, etc in OpenStack meet-ups.
I have many European friends and also Danish friends, since I used to 
do my university there. They all spoke perfect English, which made me 
admire, cos they were linguists in my point of view. Oriental 
languages are different. They are too far from the western lingual 
system. In China, there are many talented engineers, who are not that 
kind of linguists, but they are lover of open source. I think it is 
amazing to open the door to them. In China, it is very appreciated 
for software to be localized as much as possible.
I used to google or baidu(a famous Chinese search engine) error 
messages and logs in Chinese for other software, though it is not 
Apache. I found a lot of useful references in Chinese, because it has 
been localized. If it is not localized well first, of course it does 
not have the google or yahoo ability to search.:-)
So far I am rather grateful for all the messages following this i18 
issue. Thank you so much.


Best wishes.
Vincent Hou (???)

Software Engineer, Standards Growth Team, Emerging Technology 
Institute, IBM China Software Development Lab


Tel: 86-10-82450778 Fax: 86-10-82453660
Notes ID: Sheng Bo Hou/China/IBM@IBMCNE-mail: sb...@cn.ibm.com
Address:3F Ring, Building 28 Zhongguancun Software Park, 8 Dongbeiwang 
West Road, Haidian District, Beijing, P.R.C.100193



*Soren Hansen so...@linux2go.dk*
Sent by: openstack-bounces+sbhou=cn.ibm@lists.launchpad.net

2012-04-12 19:50


To
Hua ZZ Zhang/China/IBM@IBMCN
cc
	openstack@lists.launchpad.net, Thierry Carrez 
thie...@openstack.org, 
openstack-bounces+zhuadl=cn.ibm@lists.launchpad.net

Subject
Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack









Don't get me wrong.. I'd be happy to have the various openstack
clients offer localised error messages. I'd also encourage a
centralised effort to collect these translationns (so that all the
various language bindings will use the same localised error messages).

On the server, though, I believe we should stick to English and
perhaps have every error message include a link (e.g.
http://docs.openstack.doc/exception/NoNetworksDefinedException) to a
localised docs site. I think losing the ability to search the web for
error messages would be a major loss.

--
Soren Hansen | http://linux2go.dk/
Senior Software Engineer | http://www.cisco.com/
Ubuntu Developer | http://www.ubuntu.com/
OpenStack Developer  | http://www.openstack.org/

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https://launchpad.net/%7Eopenstack

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Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack

2012-04-12 Thread Joshua Harlow 
So u have just touched on another issue,

I would still say that exception messages should not be translated (+1), haha.

If this is needed, then there is something wrong with the code and how 
exceptions are used instead (ie the bad code smell). Exceptions should be meant 
for error control flow, what they were designed for, not for user facing 
messages. I think it is more common to have a layer that translates exceptions 
into meaningful localized messages, but there needs to be a separation between 
exceptions and there localized messages (they should not be combined). This is 
a common thing afaik, its called separation of model and view, aka, mvc, (think 
of the exceptions as a model/controller(?), if the messages – the view are 
intertwined that seems broke).

This is common with a lot of other parts of openstack as well, ec2 
formatting/response creation should be separated from nova logic (ec2 should be 
a view, which it mostly is right now) and so on...

On 4/12/12 4:27 AM, Hua ZZ Zhang zhu...@cn.ibm.com wrote:

My cents:

Apache HTTP is not so equivelant to OpenStack here. Generally it doesn't care 
about the application errors or exceptions thrown by web applications. In 
openstack, exceptions have been defined in nova, horizon, keystone etc. The 
messages of these exceptions are important for different users to understand 
what has happened. These messages always need to be localized, returned and 
displayed on user interface, not just be logged in backend system. It is very 
common practice for a global software project.

Sean Dague wrote:
 If we want to think about OpenStack as a basic building block like
 Apache, i18n is critical. Otherwise there are regions that won't adopt
 it solely because of a lack of i18n.

Note that Apache HTTPd, for instance, does not seem to internationalize
its error messages. Only the (enduser-facing) HTML pages it gives back
in response to invalid requests are.



Best Regards,


Edward Zhang(张华)
Staff Software Engineer
TravelTransportation Standards
Emerging Technology Institute(ETI)
IBM China Software Development Lab
e-mail: zhu...@cn.ibm.com
Notes ID: Hua ZZ Zhang/China/IBM
Tel: 86-10-82450483地址:北京市海淀区东北旺西路8号 中关村软件园28号楼 环宇大厦3层 邮编：100193
Address: 3F Ring, Building 28 Zhongguancun Software Park, 8 Dongbeiwang West 
Road, Haidian District, Beijing, P.R.C.100193
[cid:3417071582_3128387][cid:3417071582_3146577]

[cid:3417071582_3132379]
[cid:3417071582_3124536]Thierry Carrez ---2012-04-12 16:51:59---Sean Dague 
wrote:


Thierry Carrez thie...@openstack.org
Sent by: openstack-bounces+zhuadl=cn.ibm@lists.launchpad.net 2012-04-12 
16:47

[cid:3417071582_3170778]

To

[cid:3417071582_3169928]
openstack@lists.launchpad.net
[cid:3417071582_3171998]

cc

[cid:3417071582_3154088]
[cid:3417071582_3146520]

Subject

[cid:3417071582_3157167]
Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack
[cid:3417071582_3126377][cid:3417071582_3170799]
Sean Dague wrote:
 If we want to think about OpenStack as a basic building block like
 Apache, i18n is critical. Otherwise there are regions that won't adopt
 it solely because of a lack of i18n.

Note that Apache HTTPd, for instance, does not seem to internationalize
its error messages. Only the (enduser-facing) HTML pages it gives back
in response to invalid requests are.

 Is there a metric on the completeness so far? Something automated that
 could be a jenkins coverage kind of test?

Oddly enough, it's not a question of completeness of translations.
Piggybacking on the awesome Launchpad Translations community always gave
us great coverage. It's more a code support and CI integration issue.
inline: image.gifinline: image.gifinline: image.gifinline: image.gifinline: image.gifinline: image.gifinline: image.gifinline: image.gifinline: image.gifinline: image.gifinline: image.gifinline: image.gif___
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Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack

2012-04-12 Thread Mark Nottingham 
I agree that non-user visible protocol elements should not be translated.

I think we need to dig more on the error messages. E.g., see:
  
http://docs.openstack.org/api/openstack-compute/2/content/Asynchronous_Faults-d1e2009.html

The example there contains:
  Could not find image 52415800-8b69-11e0-9b19-734f6f00

Which, as is, will need translation. Should it be redesigned? Probably.

All of that aside, there are other potentially user-visible aspects of the Nova 
API (to pick on it for a moment), including machine names and metadata. 

E.g., 
  
http://docs.openstack.org/api/openstack-compute/2/content/Create_or_Replace_Metadata-d1e5358.html

Now, both XML and JSON support Unicode, but:

 * We don't have language flagging here; is it needed? (My tentative answer: 
maybe, but hopefully not).

 * If we do, do we allow multiple values for the same key, to allow it to be 
multilingual? (same hope as above).

etc. I think I brought this up a while back, and was told that it wasn't 
in-scope yet. Perhaps with our growing community, that needs another look?

Cheers,


On 12/04/2012, at 12:33 PM, Joshua Harlow wrote:

 So u have just touched on another issue,
 
 I would still say that exception messages should not be translated (+1), haha.
 
 If this is needed, then there is something wrong with the code and how 
 exceptions are used instead (ie the bad code smell). Exceptions should be 
 meant for error control flow, what they were designed for, not for user 
 facing messages. I think it is more common to have a layer that translates 
 exceptions into meaningful localized messages, but there needs to be a 
 separation between exceptions and there localized messages (they should not 
 be combined). This is a common thing afaik, its called separation of model 
 and view, aka, mvc, (think of the exceptions as a model/controller(?), if the 
 messages – the view are intertwined that seems broke). 
 
 This is common with a lot of other parts of openstack as well, ec2 
 formatting/response creation should be separated from nova logic (ec2 should 
 be a view, which it mostly is right now) and so on...
 
 On 4/12/12 4:27 AM, Hua ZZ Zhang zhu...@cn.ibm.com wrote:
 
 My cents:
 
 Apache HTTP is not so equivelant to OpenStack here. Generally it doesn't care 
 about the application errors or exceptions thrown by web applications. In 
 openstack, exceptions have been defined in nova, horizon, keystone etc. The 
 messages of these exceptions are important for different users to understand 
 what has happened. These messages always need to be localized, returned and 
 displayed on user interface, not just be logged in backend system. It is very 
 common practice for a global software project.
 
 Sean Dague wrote:
  If we want to think about OpenStack as a basic building block like
  Apache, i18n is critical. Otherwise there are regions that won't adopt
  it solely because of a lack of i18n.
 
 Note that Apache HTTPd, for instance, does not seem to internationalize
 its error messages. Only the (enduser-facing) HTML pages it gives back
 in response to invalid requests are.
 
 
 
 Best Regards, 
 
 Edward Zhang(张华)
 Staff Software Engineer
 TravelTransportation Standards
 Emerging Technology Institute(ETI)
 IBM China Software Development Lab
 e-mail: zhu...@cn.ibm.com
 Notes ID: Hua ZZ Zhang/China/IBM
 Tel: 86-10-82450483地址:北京市海淀区东北旺西路8号 中关村软件园28号楼 环宇大厦3层 邮编：100193
 Address: 3F Ring, Building 28 Zhongguancun Software Park, 8 Dongbeiwang West 
 Road, Haidian District, Beijing, P.R.C.100193 
 image.gifimage.gif
 
 image.gif
 image.gifThierry Carrez ---2012-04-12 16:51:59---Sean Dague wrote:
 
 Thierry Carrez thie...@openstack.org 
 Sent by: openstack-bounces+zhuadl=cn.ibm@lists.launchpad.net 2012-04-12 
 16:47
 image.gif
 To
 
 image.gif
 openstack@lists.launchpad.net 
 image.gif
 
 cc
 
 image.gif
 image.gif
 
 Subject
 
 image.gif
 Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack 
 image.gifimage.gif
 Sean Dague wrote:
  If we want to think about OpenStack as a basic building block like
  Apache, i18n is critical. Otherwise there are regions that won't adopt
  it solely because of a lack of i18n.
 
 Note that Apache HTTPd, for instance, does not seem to internationalize
 its error messages. Only the (enduser-facing) HTML pages it gives back
 in response to invalid requests are.
 
  Is there a metric on the completeness so far? Something automated that
  could be a jenkins coverage kind of test?
 
 Oddly enough, it's not a question of completeness of translations.
 Piggybacking on the awesome Launchpad Translations community always gave
 us great coverage. It's more a code support and CI integration issue.
 
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Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack

2012-04-12 Thread Tom Fifield 
A good idea to separate into two parts, however I fear that the current 
English strings don't serve the first role as well as first appears. 
This has to do with the pre-processing we do on error strings to make 
more accurate searches and error report titles.


A quick, very artificial example:

Unable to get service info: Malformed request url

As English speakers, we can look at this and see that Unable to get 
service info is what happened, and Malformed request url is why.


So, knowing that there are probably many possible reasons for 'why' we 
were Unable to get service info, we might chop this part out of our 
search term, or when we ask for help - and indeed you can see an example 
of this in a title here: 
https://answers.launchpad.net/horizon/+question/190188


In other languages sometimes the sentence order is much different. For 
example, in Chinese, that error could be written something like:


因为错误格式的请求URL所以无法获得服务信息

As a Chinese speaker, you know what this says and you can work out the 
'why' and the 'what' in your search term.


As a non-Chinese speaker, you're stuck putting the whole thing into your 
search engine and hoping that no-one chopped off or changed the 
structural elements of the sentence such as 因为 and 所以.


So, perhaps the part that can be used for searches and bug reports 
really does need to be 'locale-independent'. Complex system of 
impossible to understand error numbers, anyone? ;)



Regards,


Tom

On 04/12/2012 11:46 PM, David Kranz wrote:

Both points of view being expressed about this with respect to log error
messages are valid and need to be accommodated.
An answer, as was suggested a while back, is for error messages to have
two parts:

1. A locale-independent part that can be used for searches or understood
by developers who get logs as parts of bug reports.
2. A localized part that lets operators determine if the problem is
their issue or an OpenStack bug to be reported.

The current English string would serve the first role, and the logging
code could be changed to also emit the localized string if available. I
would argue
for this only in the case of ERROR messages and not DEBUG.

While on the subject of logs, it would be good to agree on what actions
should cause errors in logs to appear. Ideally, they would only occur if
an OpenStack bug
was detected (out-of-bounds array ref, etc.) or some operational problem
occurred (disk ran out of space, etc.). Right now errors are sometimes
output for other
reasons such as bad arguments to api calls. This makes it difficult for
an operator to know when a real problem with the system has occurred.

David Kranz
Quanta Research Cambridge




On 4/12/2012 9:06 AM, Sheng Bo Hou wrote:

Dear OpenStack friends,

It will be happy and great for our OpenStack community to see this
open project open to more market all over the world.
In China, OpenStack community is very active. I heard many Chinese
engineers talking about their wish to have a Chinese versioned
openStack, including documentation's, manuals, user interfaces, error
messages, etc in OpenStack meet-ups.
I have many European friends and also Danish friends, since I used to
do my university there. They all spoke perfect English, which made me
admire, cos they were linguists in my point of view. Oriental
languages are different. They are too far from the western lingual
system. In China, there are many talented engineers, who are not that
kind of linguists, but they are lover of open source. I think it is
amazing to open the door to them. In China, it is very appreciated
for software to be localized as much as possible.
I used to google or baidu(a famous Chinese search engine) error
messages and logs in Chinese for other software, though it is not
Apache. I found a lot of useful references in Chinese, because it has
been localized. If it is not localized well first, of course it does
not have the google or yahoo ability to search.:-)
So far I am rather grateful for all the messages following this i18
issue. Thank you so much.

Best wishes.
Vincent Hou (侯胜博)

Software Engineer, Standards Growth Team, Emerging Technology
Institute, IBM China Software Development Lab

Tel: 86-10-82450778 Fax: 86-10-82453660
Notes ID: Sheng Bo Hou/China/IBM@IBMCN E-mail: sb...@cn.ibm.com
Address:3F Ring, Building 28 Zhongguancun Software Park, 8 Dongbeiwang
West Road, Haidian District, Beijing, P.R.C.100193


*Soren Hansen so...@linux2go.dk*
Sent by: openstack-bounces+sbhou=cn.ibm@lists.launchpad.net

2012-04-12 19:50


To
Hua ZZ Zhang/China/IBM@IBMCN
cc
openstack@lists.launchpad.net, Thierry Carrez
thie...@openstack.org,
openstack-bounces+zhuadl=cn.ibm@lists.launchpad.net
Subject
Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack









Don't get me wrong.. I'd be happy to have the various openstack
clients offer localised error messages. I'd also encourage a
centralised effort to collect these translationns (so that all the
various language

Re: [Openstack] I18n issue for OpenStack

2012-04-11 Thread Sean Dague 

On 04/11/2012 08:41 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:

Sheng Bo Hou wrote:

After the research done by my colleage Edward Zhang and myself, we have
found the following issues for openstack. We have already raised bug
https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/974810
https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/974810  .
[...]


Thanks for your analysis. We plan to discuss how to fix and extend I18N
at the summit. One question that was raised on the ML in February was
whether internationalization was actually worth the effort for
infrastructure software like OpenStack.

I'll be the first to admit that there are other languages than English,
but all our open development is based in English already (bugs, reviews,
commit messages, mailing-lists, IRC...), so I don't think supporting
more languages in the software itself will help growing our developer
community.


I would tend to disagree with that. People are more likely to invest 
their time in software if they'll be able to use it better in their 
locale. I think this is definitely even more true in places where 
English has less of a dominant presence. It may even bring people to the 
table solely interested in helping with translation. I've seen that 
happen elsewhere.



On our users community, do operators of OpenStack need translated error
messages ? Given that translations are often incomplete, is it worth it
? What do comparable infrastructure open source software projects
provide ? The effort to provide them has proven non-trivial, I'd like to
make sure it's time well spent.


If we want to think about OpenStack as a basic building block like 
Apache, i18n is critical. Otherwise there are regions that won't adopt 
it solely because of a lack of i18n.


Is there a metric on the completeness so far? Something automated that 
could be a jenkins coverage kind of test?


-Sean

--
Sean Dague
IBM Linux Technology Center
email: slda...@us.ibm.com
alt-email: sda...@linux.vnet.ibm.com


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