Well, you know something on thisI am not saying that all Indians are the
best in their
business either. During the hey-days of dotcom companies and IT when anybody
who just
could compile a simple program or even less were hired out, I have seen guys
emigrating
from India to the US purely
No, it's got the word professional in it. We can't be using that
company or they'd be done under the trade descriptions act!
Craig Healey
-Original Message-
From: Stephen Lee
Sent: 14 August 2003 20:15
No no! Not EDS. That was Ed's. As in:
Ed's plumbing, welding, and database
Title: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
step out of darkness
can't resist this, although i may regret it ... but ...
i have seen exactly what samir describes here, with similar outcomes for those involved.
however, i worked at an overseas subsidiary of what became one of the biggest
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
-Original Message-
From: Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI
be an overall benefit to the economy, too. However, the financial
argument of should I pay 75K - 120K a year for US based DBAs
Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than available
candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their positions.
When there are
When I worked for Oracle's custom development group
I worked on a large
conversion project that employed about 350
consultants (150 from Oracle).
They had a number of foreign consultants on the
project. About 1 in 10 had
technical skills that were above mediocre, but they
worked cheap. The code
When I worked for Oracle's custom development group I worked on a large
conversion project that employed about 350 consultants (150 from Oracle).
They had a number of foreign consultants on the project. About 1 in 10 had
technical skills that were above mediocre, but they worked cheap. The code
Companies will wake up--or as likely--the offshore techies' skills will grow with
experience their work product will get better.
Hopefully they'll also raise their prices at that point, tho they'll still have to
entice companies to deal with the geographic/time/cultural differences so I'd
But lower paying jobs mean lower tax revenues. Uh oh!
-Original Message-
Regrettably that average collection of greedy, stupid
executives are also the politicians we have to deal with as
well. Just take a look at King George his greedy deputy Chaney.
--
Please see the
Back in the days when I used to do configuration management (among other
things), I saw which programmers were producing what code and found that a
good programmer would average about 10 - 20 times the amount of a
typical programmer. And a kick ass programmer would produce about 100
times the
Considering the defecits theur running up, that sure does not seem to bother them, or
is that just the stupid part, as in we will not burden our childern part of last
years State of the Union.
Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA
-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday,
At least some parts were. We use OPM here and it was a conversion of
GEMMS done in India.
Allan
-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:05 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Wasn't Oracle 11i developed outside the USA? The initial
implementations were a real
-- Boston Globe job listings
Ken,
With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter
role) you would
actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!
Mark
-Original Message-
KENNETH JANUSZ
Sent: 14 August 2003 16:45
To: Multiple
Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your
upbeat attitude is
encouraging. I think you've made a good point that
jobs aren't always
advertised. Another point is that when there are
more jobs than available
candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to
fill their positions.
When there are
AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
Ken,
With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter
role) you would
actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!
Mark
-Original Message-
KENNETH JANUSZ
Sent: 14 August
:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
Ken,
With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter
role) you would
actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing
Allan,
Regrettably that average collection of greedy, stupid executives are also
the politicians we have to deal with as well. Just take a look at King George his
greedy deputy Chaney.
Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA
-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday,
Steve now thats one of the funnier things i've read for a while, that
will probably work.
joe
Orr, Steve wrote:
Usually these kind of customers don't actually meet the live DBA's in person so there's gotta be a hack work-around solution to this. Here's what I propose: Setup a domain name with
I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although
that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use
newspaper ads anymore. They are using the internet (especially for
technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do their
:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
Ken,
With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter
role) you would
actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly
I'm a senior DBA (whatever that means), and I do lot of ad hoc scripting
for other people, and I don't get no 75K. But then, I'm not working for 35K
to 40K either -- except when I was at WorldCom four years ago where I worked
for 44K. They figured out how to get the best of both worlds: Work
RANT
The problem is that companies are scrambling to cut costs to keep that
quarterly report looking good. Sometime ago some CEO found that if the
quarterly report looked good he justified getting paid more. So the emphasis
has been year after year to plan for the next quarter. Now that the
No no! Not EDS. That was Ed's. As in:
Ed's plumbing, welding, and database admin
( and professional dancing)
-Original Message-
Didn't the UK outsource their IT function to EDS?
--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
--
Author: Stephen Lee
INET: [EMAIL
--
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA
-Original Message-
KENNETH JANUSZ
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:45 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Dennis:
With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et al. I don't
think companies
are very included to do
this
Maybe I should move to Beijing instead ;) ...
-Mensaje original-
De: Boivin, Patrice J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Enviado el: jueves, 14 de agosto de 2003 15:20
Para: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Asunto: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
Adam Smith said that government
Dennis:
With respect to sending production DBA positions to India, et al. I don't
think companies are very included to do this because of security concerns
and the confidentiality of the information stored in the DB. It's not a
good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.
Ken
-
] Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA
-Original Message-
From: Mark Leith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
Ken,
With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales
, 2003 10:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
Ken,
With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter
role) you would
actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!
Mark
-Original
Dennis:
With respect to sending production DBA positions to
India, et al. I don't
think companies are very included to do this
because of security concerns
and the confidentiality of the information stored
in the DB. It's not a
good idea to open your DB's to the entire world.
Ken
Ken,
KENNETH JANUSZ scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon:
This makes me puke.
here they're talking about outsourcing all the IT for the division, and the
front running company is Indian and will move all but a few people to it's
home offices there. the few dealings i've had with their people
Reminds me of when IBM decided to keep the Aptiva line, built in Mexico, and
killed the Ambra line of PCs, built in Canada... My mother owned an Aptiva,
I owned an Ambra -- In my opinion the Aptivas had many more problems than
the Ambras did.
In the end IBM decided to kill the Ambra line because
If India and Pakistan go to war. Or, China tries to retake Taiwan you will
see this reverse real fast.
Ken
- Original Message -
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:14 AM
Tim,
I regret to have to agree with you. More of the
Of course the shipment of development work out of the US affects DBAs!
Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the
outsourcing of application development to another physical location then
necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it. How
many huge
So, in this sense, we (or rather our jobs) really are helping world peace?
That'll make me feel better as I upsell customers to the Biggie-size combo
meal... :-)
Continuing with the water level in the lake analogy, I do believe that
production support (applications, databases, systems, and
-Original Message-
From: Mark Leith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
Ken,
With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter
role) you would
Ken - Since in your other posting you mentioned you are in the Minneapolis
area, I'll keep my eye open if something is mentioned. I strongly feel we
all need to help each other, you never can tell when it'll be your turn.
Dennis Williams
DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I'd also like to point out that this is least likely
to happen if you are a DBA in a federal or state
government position (outsourcing to India etc not
likely to happen).
mohammed
--- Stephane Faroult [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your
upbeat attitude is
One thing which most of the people have assumed on this thread
is that since the labour is cheap, it is necessarily inefficient and
incompetent.
The reason the labour comes cheap in India is cos living costs r very cheap
too.
The best paid executives in India get paid around 100,000 Indian Rupees
It maynot be a good
idea from a security perpective - but I know my bosses are looking into purely
for the cost. The idea seems to be keep a core set of people here and outsource
everything else. This is happening at several companies I know of in the
southeast (US). Eventually we will end
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
Ken,
With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter
role) you would
actually be surprised at how many people
Dennis:
I am still in the process of changing jobs since I got laid off last year.
The company I worked for went belly up.
Ken
- Original Message -
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:24 AM
Ken - Since you've recently changed
Usually these kind of customers don't actually meet the live DBA's in person so
there's gotta be a hack work-around solution to this. Here's what I propose: Setup a
domain name with and ISP that has an overseas address. Then setup an Apache virtual
host that redirects to your own operations.
One of the truly dog eat dog aspects of this is that the Indians, in
some areas, are unable to compete with the Chinese and so they
themselves are being outsourced.
I don't think any amount of complaining from DBA ranks will make the
slightest bit of difference to the average collection of
It's already painted on the side of my truck:
A-1 plumbing, welding, and database admin
I decided, for the sake of professional appearance, to leave professional
dancer
off the logo. The plumber's outfit gets double duty.
--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
--
im sure the quality in india is fine. anyone who does this in a metropolitan
area works with Indian immigrants. I have no beef with them. They are the
same quality as the Americans.
There are 4 times as many people in India as in the Unitied States, throw in
5 times as many in China and there are
Wasn't Oracle 11i developed outside the USA? The initial implementations
were a real mess.
Ken
- Original Message -
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
Of course the shipment of development work out of the US affects
/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA
-Original Message-
From: Mark Leith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
Ken,
With the amount of companies I talk
I'm in
Wun Hung Lo
Orr, Steve wrote:
Usually these kind of customers don't actually meet the live DBA's in person so there's gotta be a hack work-around solution to this. Here's what I propose: Setup a domain name with and ISP that has an overseas address. Then setup an Apache virtual host that
Title: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
at least it explains all of the job listings for DBAs in India
April Wells
Oracle DBA/Oracle Apps DBA
Corporate Systems
Amarillo Texas
Few people really enjoy the simple pleasure of flying a kite
Adam Wells age 11
-Original Message
ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
-Original Message-
From: Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI
be an overall benefit to the economy, too. However, the
financial argument of should I pay 75K - 120K a year for US
based DBAs or pay 45K - 80K for offshore
Samir
Thanks for your contribution to this thread. One idea I heard was that
for many years the bureaucracy in India made creating an export business
difficult. So India had a lot of well-educated people with little
opportunity to participate in the global economy. With the Internet, this
I've seen it kill consulting rates for developers but not for the DBA side.
joe
DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote:
Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
advertised. Another point is that when there are more
Samir,
Your E-mail just brought up in my point of view one of the problems with global trade
( generally I am not against it btw ): since the living cost here is so much higher in
the US, it is unfair and impossible for people in the US to compete against people
living in India. We are not
Sturegeon's Law - 99% of everything is crap.
I happen to think that King George is better than Boy Bill but political
preference is like art apprciation.
Allan
-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:40 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Allan,
Usually these kind of customers don't actually meet the live DBA's in person so
there's gotta be a hack work-around solution to this. Here's what I propose: Setup a
domain name with and ISP that has an overseas address. Then setup an Apache virtual
host that redirects to your own operations.
-Original Message-
From: Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI
be an overall benefit to the economy, too. However, the
financial argument of should I pay 75K - 120K a year for US
based DBAs or pay 45K - 80K for offshore talent is hard to
beat. The money ranges I gave are contract
14, 2003 12:54 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
-Original Message-
From: Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI
be an overall benefit to the economy, too. However, the
financial argument of should I pay 75K - 120K
, 2003 10:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
Ken,
With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter
role) you would
actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!
Mark
-Original Message
inline
But now I keep seeing
articles about how much development work is being sent
overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work yet?
Huge discussions going on here at work about that very subject. So far, no one has
come up with a reasonable argument for keeping the jobs
Dennis ,
One can always find good and bad programmers any whre in world . But in this
thread competency is brought up only bacause of cheap labor they are
concerned .
-ak
- Original Message -
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003
Ken,
With the amount of companies I talk to (in a sales-critter role) you would
actually be surprised at how many people ARE doing exactly this!
Mark
-Original Message-
KENNETH JANUSZ
Sent: 14 August 2003 16:45
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Dennis:
With respect to sending
My 2 cents: why not outsource CEOs too? That would REALLY save big $.
Larry
-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 2:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
One thing which most of the people have assumed on this thread
is that since the labour is cheap, it is
Tim,
I regret to have to agree with you. More of the IT jobs are will be moving
to overseas locations until those locations prove that they cannot support US
operations for one reason or other. I believe it is just an effort by unintelligent
CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today.
:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 12:54 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings
-Original Message-
From: Wolfe Stephen S GS-11 6 MDSS/SGSI
be an overall benefit to the economy, too. However, the financial
One thing you can be sure of, if wages in India start to climb (albeit modestly by US
standards)and/or the unemployment rate radically drops the cost of living will climb
with the demand. It then turns into a vicious circle of people needing more money to
maintain their style of living which
One can always find good and bad programmers any whre in world . But in
this
thread competency is brought up only bacause of cheap labor they are
concerned .
-ak
This is true. The most talented Oracle DBA I have ever worked with, with
the possible exception of Jared, was an Indian contractor.
Just an addition, CRM isn't probably an issue, but most of countries have
laws which forbid taking and handling financial and billing information
abroad..
Tanel.
- Original Message -
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 7:04 PM
I used to work for Sabeer Bhatia. He's the guy that did Hotmail and sold it to
Microsoft for $400,000,000.00. (Much of the deal was in MS stock when it was quite
lower.) I worked for Sabeer at a Silicon Valley dot.com startup. He was generous to
folks back home and there were some Indian
Deepak The Disemboweler has a nice ring.
Ian MacGregor
Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 12:20 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
--
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA
-Original Message-
KENNETH JANUSZ
IMHO, that's not your 2 cents: it's worth
a *lot* more.
Cheers
Nuno Souto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
My 2 cents: why not outsource CEOs too? That would REALLY save big $.
--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
--
Author: Nuno Souto
INET: [EMAIL
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