Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim
George, ...and no doubt quasi-religious is probably a more useful term. Quasi-religious is not merely a more useful term, it is, for a change, an extremely accurate term. All, repeat *all*, craft and/or skill clans/guilds/corporations/etc. are quasi-religious. An ancient clan craftmaster or a Medieval guild master (or Modern CIO for that matter), *is* a priest -- of sorts. Ancient or modern, all crafts quite understandably go to a great deal of effort to guard their industrial secrets. Among the most common techniques used to guard their secrets from being copied are to require incantations and rituals to perform a procedure. Who performs the incantations and oversees the rituals? Why the craftmaster/guildmaster of course. He or she is the teacher and guardian of the clan/craft/guild rituals and secrets. While definitely not what we mean by religious, there is a superficial similarity between the role of a clan craftmaster and a priest. But in the meantime, I caution us against getting too fixated on the smith nature of the Rechabites I do not think Eusebius would have been too confused between quasi-religious and priestly. It is not a fixation; it is a reality. An ancient clan craftmaster/Medieval guild master/etc., is essentially the priest of his/her craft/guild/etc. Remember, if something can be misunderstood, it will be. As superficially there are similarities, it is extremely easy to see why an outsider observing a craftmaster in action could confuse the teacher-guardian functions of a craftmaster with those of a priest -- IF that really is what Eusebius wrote. Then, smiths, in particular, cultivated a magical aura -- again quite easy to understand. As makers of weapons and tools, they wanted to maintain their economic edge. Further, smiths not only were essential workers, but because of their cultivated link with magic held a unique position -- they were protected. (And the protection of smiths as essential workers is registered in the MT; one does not kill descendants of Cain without fear of reprisal.) ... spiritual fusion going on with these guild-like clans. Guilds were, and are, groups bound together by economics and a specialty. These clans were not guild-like; they were guilds with whatever specialty upon which they were economically dependent passed down within the clan/guild and whose secrets were guarded by the clan craftmaster. The role of clan craftmaster has nothing to do with what we normally think of as spiritual. The superficial resemblances between the functions of a priest and that of a clan craftmaster can be misunderstood as being priestly, hence spritual; however, the concept of a spritual fusion is simply wrong. There seems to be quite a bit of re-thinking to do. Regards, Rochelle -- Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Rochelle I. Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim
I haven't been following this thred too much, but something just struck me in this message. In Mesopotamia there are guilds and they take loyalty oaths. David Weisberg studied this genre in his PhD dissertation, published on the YNER series. the Mesopotamian craftsmen who produced cult statues in the bit mummi (workroom) actually depicted themselves as gods! For this see the recent publication by M. Dick and C.B.F Walker of the Mis Pi ritual. For secret lore in Mesopotamia and craftguilds see as well the article on Geheimnissweisheit in the Reallexikon des Assryiologie. You may come across some interesting analogies. Victor On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Rochelle I. Altman wrote: George, ...and no doubt quasi-religious is probably a more useful term. Quasi-religious is not merely a more useful term, it is, for a change, an extremely accurate term. All, repeat *all*, craft and/or skill clans/guilds/corporations/etc. are quasi-religious. An ancient clan craftmaster or a Medieval guild master (or Modern CIO for that matter), *is* a priest -- of sorts. Ancient or modern, all crafts quite understandably go to a great deal of effort to guard their industrial secrets. Among the most common techniques used to guard their secrets from being copied are to require incantations and rituals to perform a procedure. Who performs the incantations and oversees the rituals? Why the craftmaster/guildmaster of course. He or she is the teacher and guardian of the clan/craft/guild rituals and secrets. While definitely not what we mean by religious, there is a superficial similarity between the role of a clan craftmaster and a priest. But in the meantime, I caution us against getting too fixated on the smith nature of the Rechabites I do not think Eusebius would have been too confused between quasi-religious and priestly. It is not a fixation; it is a reality. An ancient clan craftmaster/Medieval guild master/etc., is essentially the priest of his/her craft/guild/etc. Remember, if something can be misunderstood, it will be. As superficially there are similarities, it is extremely easy to see why an outsider observing a craftmaster in action could confuse the teacher-guardian functions of a craftmaster with those of a priest -- IF that really is what Eusebius wrote. Then, smiths, in particular, cultivated a magical aura -- again quite easy to understand. As makers of weapons and tools, they wanted to maintain their economic edge. Further, smiths not only were essential workers, but because of their cultivated link with magic held a unique position -- they were protected. (And the protection of smiths as essential workers is registered in the MT; one does not kill descendants of Cain without fear of reprisal.) ... spiritual fusion going on with these guild-like clans. Guilds were, and are, groups bound together by economics and a specialty. These clans were not guild-like; they were guilds with whatever specialty upon which they were economically dependent passed down within the clan/guild and whose secrets were guarded by the clan craftmaster. The role of clan craftmaster has nothing to do with what we normally think of as spiritual. The superficial resemblances between the functions of a priest and that of a clan craftmaster can be misunderstood as being priestly, hence spritual; however, the concept of a spritual fusion is simply wrong. There seems to be quite a bit of re-thinking to do. Regards, Rochelle -- For private reply, e-mail to avigdor horovitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim
Dr. Altman, You wrote: These clans were not guild-like; they **WERE** guilds [emphasis mine] with whatever specialty upon which they were economically dependent passed down within the clan/guild and whose secrets were guarded by the clan craftmaster. The role of clan craftmaster has nothing to do with what we normally think of as spiritual. The superficial resemblances between the functions of a priest and that of a clan craftmaster can be misunderstood as being priestly, hence spritual Dr. Gibson very kindly sent me the entire text from the Anchor articles that David Suter strongly recommended that I read concerning the guild nature of the Rechabites. I appreciate the assistance with that, Dr. Gibson. Dr. Altman, Do you think this priestly role of the guild master, is what is at the heart of Eusebius' reference to Rechabite Priests? Or do you think Talmudic references to Rechabites marrying into the family of the High Priest is the source of the idea that there were Rechabite Priests around at the time of the death of James (the brother of Jesus). I am wondering if BOTH points of view might be true? George Brooks Tampa, FL P.S. You wrote in a subsequent posting: (Here are three more for George when he is done with the ABD article) But I couldn't make out what the three more items were. Please advise on the additional articles or writers that have a bearing on these themes. I look forward to further research. For private reply, e-mail to George Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim
George, It's easy to explain why quasi-religious is an accurate term to describe craft-clans and guilds. It's also easy enough to explain why the teacher/ guardian role of craftmaster can be confused with a priestly role. But your question is unanswerable by anybody except the Talmudists and Eusebius -- IF that really is what Eusebius wrote. There are things we simply cannot know -- not now, not ever. What a dead author was thinking when he wrote something must forever rest in the realm of the unknowable. Accept it. Don't waste effort on the unknowable. It is far better to build on things we can know -- such as the superficial similarities between guildmaster functions and priestly functions or the quasi-religious nature of craft clans and guilds or that eyeless cult statues date back to at least 22,000 BCE or that perspective in drawing is not an invention of the Renaissance for back in 28,000 BCE ancient artists knew all about perspective but did not use it to give life to a human figure. Please also remember that terms, tags, and names automatically bias thinking. The term history is biased towards modern perceptions. For example, we say pre-historic, yet this term actually means prior to written records of history. There are, in fact, written records that do not record what we think of as history, yet are indeed history; these also date back to the Magdelene. P.S. You wrote in a subsequent posting: (Here are three more for George when he is done with the ABD article) I was referring to the 3 sources mentioned by Avigdor. It may be a good idea to see if you can get a copy of that diss by David Weisberg from Michigan... or the published book form... if Avigdor will supply the exact bib ref for you. Regards, Rochelle -- Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Rochelle I. Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
