Re: orion-list Water, Water everywhere... For what it is worth,while finding no good links to topographical maps of the Dead Sea region,it does appear that Rochelle is obtaining her information from the followingbook, or something very like it: _The Dead Sea: The Lake and Its Setting_,Edited by TINA M. NIEMI, University of Missouri, Kansas City,ZVI BEN-AVRAHAM, Tel Aviv University, Israel, and JOEL R. GAT,Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel, $85.00, ISBN 0195087038, 1997,Oxford Monographs on Geology and Geophysics 36
Dave, Hey, Watch it! If I had been using a single source, I would have said so... and quoted from it. My data are from books, journals, lab reports, and other scientific reports from across more than 50 years. I have known specifically about the geology and marine biology of the Med basin and the general area for more than 35 years. During one delightful 3-year period I was fortunate to have translated or re-written the English of reports, and drawn many maps of both the coast and the bed of the Med for an Oceanographic Institute... and have always kept up with new material on the subjects. Nobody can cover everything, so I don't know if the above book goes into the hauntingly familiar similarities between the formation of the mountain spurs that poke into the Dead Sea basin and the spurs at the undersea sills of the Med/Atlantic and Black Sea/Med interfaces... Rochelle -- Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Rochelle I. Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Water, Water everywhere... For what it is worth,
Dave, This sure sounds like a great resource... I didn't think you intended to or I'd have pulled your ears off VBG Cheers, Rochelle -- Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Rochelle I. Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Water, Water everywhere...
Dear Ian, Okay, time for a coffee break in any case... The cracked cistern --- Zavislock, an architect with experience in repairs after earthquake damage (who did reconstruction work at Qumran). S [snip] He sees that the cracking was done at the first introduction of water into the structure -- Fair enough; *as I noted*, if from settling because of the clay softening, it would have cracked at the first rains. However, you still have not accounted for cracks in other cisterns or for the damage to other parts of the water system (BTW, if at first fill, the crack could have been repaired; the techniques and materials were known for 3,000 plus years by the 2nd BCE.) Dead Sea topography --- The conversation was about the limit of the sea level based on the location of Ein Feshka during the Qumran period. I can't see how hypothetical crevices, passes, caves, etc., have any bearing on the local topography so as to render irrelevant the altitude of Ein Feshka as a limiting factor for the height of the sea at the time. Perhaps you could explain. It is _5 miles_ (or 9 kilometers) and be careful how you interpret littoral -- we are not talking about a nice, flat sand beach, not even the Estoral -- and while I realize that photographs taken from above make it look as if the littoral of the Dead Sea is flat... there are plenty of mountainous intrusions. The limiter is the height of the lowest pass between the two sites. The question is when that lowest point opened. Please get a book on the geology of the Med and another on hydrology; This is just being naughty. Perhaps; but I do have sufficient reason from other assertions you have made in the past to have doubts as to your first hand knowledge on subjects you have raised, no? I'll leave this to the expert opinion of Zavislock for the moment. Okay, along with the proviso that we still have the other cracks, etc Our main indication is a crack running through a few conjoining cisterns. We can't start with the -- in this case -- unlearned opinion of de Vaux, who after all was not an architect or a geologist. Hmm, I don't remember saying anywhere that I depended upon de Vaux -- I think the ball is still in your court: what actual evidence do you have to suggest the altitude of Ein Feshka isn't the limiting factor for the height of the sea during Qumran times? The peak recorded in the geological records. These Lisan records are not smooth curves up and down. They're bumpy; with increases and decreases showing up even as the greater increase in overall level is recorded. The level during the period covering the construction of the site is not a little blip; it's the very peak of a good sized high with a dip and then a slight rise on the near (towards CE) side and then a bumpy slide with small peaks on the downhill side till the deposit record finally disappears through lack of adequate rainfall. But then, the whole point of getting involved in a thread out here is this: The site shows two different periods of habitation. (In fact, from what evidence we do have, we are talking about two different types of inhabitants as well.) The geological record also shows two different periods of water level. What applies to one period of habitation and/or water-level does not necessarily apply to the other. Coffee break's over; back on my head. Rochelle -- Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Rochelle I. Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Water, Water everywhere... (Was: Essene cemetery atJericho?)
Hi, Ian G The Lisan Peninsula is very low, as is the land below Qumran. It doesn't take much change to cover much of it. No, it sure does not... The Dead Sea is a closed basin; all you need to bring the water level up is a geological humid period. While the geological record can indicate when a pluvial period (e.g. ca. 10,000 - 6500 BP -- Noah's flood period was a very heavy continuous pluvial period) has occurred from the increase or decrease in Lisan-type deposits (greenish-grey, laminated clay layers), geological records do not tend towards very narrow time frames. The Noahian flood period was followed by severe drought, then a moderate pluvial period. The early Bronze (ca. 4400-4300 BP) occurred near the end of of this moderate pluvial age... with another severe drought indicated in the record shortly after we arrive at the Bronze Age. From then until around 1500 BP (Byzantine culture) the geological record from the Dead Sea shows fluctuations of various magnitude in the Lisan- record. The geological record indicates that the period from around the 8th Century BCE (to get off the geochronological Base Period onto more familiar ground) to 500 CE was a dry period with humid intrusions. The water level in a closed basin can easily fluctuate 50-60 meters within a very short time frame. These time spans of humid intrusions cannot be shown geologically at much closer than about 200-400 years. If Khirbet Qumran was originally built during the 2nd BCE, then *from the geological record* it was built smack in the middle of one of those 200-400 year high periods. That a Roman structure shows up 300 years later only tells us that the Roman structure was built during the following low period -- which is also recorded in the geological record. Nevertheless, Qumran is still on the litorral of the Dead Sea. Yep. [Snip] Part of the aqueduct is a tunnel cut through the rock of the hills above the site. You are only talking about the part that arrived at Qumran. De Vaux indicates that there must also have been a catchment basin to regulate the flow of water as the quantity of water which flowed through Wadi Qumran when it did flow far exceeded the capacity of the cisterns. Well, if you've ever seen rainfall in a desert climate... flash-flooding is normal. In fact, the rain fall can be so heavy, that you can _hear_ the rain coming towards you. During heavy rainfall, flood channels 19 feet deep and 35 feet across will fill to their brim within 2-3 *minutes*. And while, for example, Scottsdale's green-belt is an open-ended flood control system resting on a sand base, the Dead Sea is not. It is a closed-basin resting on a rock base with nowhere for the water to go but up. Some control over the rate of water flow is built-in to the angles of the aqueduct (a technique that was already known to the Minoans), but De Vaux is undoubtedly correct about a catch basin somewhere along the line -- those cisterns would have over-flowed in minutes during a typical seasonal rainfall without something more to regulate in-flow. But, then, as I recall, some folks on this list are not too knowledgeable about water needs for plant or human -- or the differences between a closed basin and an open one. Cheers, Rochelle PS: Much to my amusement, at a lecture I heard a few weeks ago, there was this biologist relating how humans need a minimum of 1-1/2 to 2 liters of water per hour in this climate (Northern Negev... including the Dead Sea) and that by the time you are thirsty, you are already dehydrated. As they say in South France, te... -- Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Rochelle I. Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Red Ink in Qumran Scrolls
Tyler, On the use of red ink in Antiquity, a very good source is: Anne F. Robertson, Word Dividers, Spot Markers and Clause Markers in Old Assyrian, Ugaritic, and Egyptian Texts. Diss. NYU, November 1993. (Chuck Jones mentioned it some years ago with respect to the use of red inks in the DSS. As the ca. 10th-9th BCE Phoenician texts use dots as a three point punctuation system in a refinement of the Ugaritic bar and dot system... A public thanks, Chuck, for bringing the diss to my attention.) A few Qumran scrolls have some writing in red ink on them (e.g., 4QNum-b, 2QPs), and in most cases their editors plausibly suggest that this may indicate a liturgical function (see, e.g., DJD XII, p. 211 for 4QNum-b). I was wondering if the use of red ink could additionally suggest that the scroll was not intended to be a biblical scroll, but was a text copied for expressly liturgical functions? (if such a distinction can be made) [Snip] From my own research, there is a slight possiblity that colored graphs in late-antique docs could indicate musical directions; however... while musical notes as colors are discussed back in the 6th BCE (and undoubtedly also date back to the 24th BCE), no hard evidence for musical color-notation in liturgical use shows up until the 5th CE. More likely, from what I saw when I was examining the DJD, these color uses appear to be an adaption of xenographic exchange. The exchange technique also dates back to Antiquity -- to the reign of Sargon I of Sumer and Akkad to be exact. Particularly good examples of the usual exchange technique appear in 11QPs; as exchange indicates the distinction between the transcendent and the mundane realms, and continued to indicate this distinction between realms centuries after the printing press appeared, its much later (ca. 10th CE) Christian use as *specifically* a liturgical or religious technique instead of the previous use of indicating, for example, a ruler acting in a transcendent role rather than a mundane role, tells us nothing about a liturgical function in the DSS. The basis of my query is mMeg 2.2 where red ink/dye [SQR)] is prohibited for use on biblical scrolls: If it were written with paint, or with red dye [SQR)], or with resin, or with copperas, on paper or on partially prepared hide, he has not performed his duty, unless it is written in Hebrew on parchment and with ink [DYW]. mMeg 2.2 Obviously one problem with my reasoning is that it is anachronistic, applying later Jewish tradition to the Qumran scrolls. But in my own defense, Tov has demonstrated that many of the latter rabbinic guidelines for scroll preparation and copying appear to have been followed with the Qumran scrolls (e.g., his article on the dimensions of the scrolls). While your reasoning is sound, scripts, sizes, and formats are tightly bound to cultural identity. The battle over the Jewish ethnic script was only settled in the 2nd-3rd CE. You also can see a table giving the breakdown of some of the more important sizes and formats in use around the turn of the common era in that on-line lecture of mine on the Writing World of the DSS at St. Andrews... (unless Jim has set-up a direct link, the link is all the way down at the bottom of the syllabus page under Qumran.) Unfortunately, the culturally determined continuity of the scroll dimensions precludes their use as guidelines for other aspects. Among other (but not limited to) telling arguments against the use of later prescriptions as a guide are the adoption by the early Christians of both xenographic exchange and colored inks for religious texts. In addition, we have Greek and Latin script-systems that incorporate graph- models that appear in the DSS and on BCE Judean coins. All these show that the early Christians followed existing Jewish models. Together, these features do make it anachronistic to use later directions about the use of color to apply to the DSS. Hope this helps, Rochelle -- Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Rochelle I. Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim
George, ...and no doubt quasi-religious is probably a more useful term. Quasi-religious is not merely a more useful term, it is, for a change, an extremely accurate term. All, repeat *all*, craft and/or skill clans/guilds/corporations/etc. are quasi-religious. An ancient clan craftmaster or a Medieval guild master (or Modern CIO for that matter), *is* a priest -- of sorts. Ancient or modern, all crafts quite understandably go to a great deal of effort to guard their industrial secrets. Among the most common techniques used to guard their secrets from being copied are to require incantations and rituals to perform a procedure. Who performs the incantations and oversees the rituals? Why the craftmaster/guildmaster of course. He or she is the teacher and guardian of the clan/craft/guild rituals and secrets. While definitely not what we mean by religious, there is a superficial similarity between the role of a clan craftmaster and a priest. But in the meantime, I caution us against getting too fixated on the smith nature of the Rechabites I do not think Eusebius would have been too confused between quasi-religious and priestly. It is not a fixation; it is a reality. An ancient clan craftmaster/Medieval guild master/etc., is essentially the priest of his/her craft/guild/etc. Remember, if something can be misunderstood, it will be. As superficially there are similarities, it is extremely easy to see why an outsider observing a craftmaster in action could confuse the teacher-guardian functions of a craftmaster with those of a priest -- IF that really is what Eusebius wrote. Then, smiths, in particular, cultivated a magical aura -- again quite easy to understand. As makers of weapons and tools, they wanted to maintain their economic edge. Further, smiths not only were essential workers, but because of their cultivated link with magic held a unique position -- they were protected. (And the protection of smiths as essential workers is registered in the MT; one does not kill descendants of Cain without fear of reprisal.) ... spiritual fusion going on with these guild-like clans. Guilds were, and are, groups bound together by economics and a specialty. These clans were not guild-like; they were guilds with whatever specialty upon which they were economically dependent passed down within the clan/guild and whose secrets were guarded by the clan craftmaster. The role of clan craftmaster has nothing to do with what we normally think of as spiritual. The superficial resemblances between the functions of a priest and that of a clan craftmaster can be misunderstood as being priestly, hence spritual; however, the concept of a spritual fusion is simply wrong. There seems to be quite a bit of re-thinking to do. Regards, Rochelle -- Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Rochelle I. Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim
George, It's easy to explain why quasi-religious is an accurate term to describe craft-clans and guilds. It's also easy enough to explain why the teacher/ guardian role of craftmaster can be confused with a priestly role. But your question is unanswerable by anybody except the Talmudists and Eusebius -- IF that really is what Eusebius wrote. There are things we simply cannot know -- not now, not ever. What a dead author was thinking when he wrote something must forever rest in the realm of the unknowable. Accept it. Don't waste effort on the unknowable. It is far better to build on things we can know -- such as the superficial similarities between guildmaster functions and priestly functions or the quasi-religious nature of craft clans and guilds or that eyeless cult statues date back to at least 22,000 BCE or that perspective in drawing is not an invention of the Renaissance for back in 28,000 BCE ancient artists knew all about perspective but did not use it to give life to a human figure. Please also remember that terms, tags, and names automatically bias thinking. The term history is biased towards modern perceptions. For example, we say pre-historic, yet this term actually means prior to written records of history. There are, in fact, written records that do not record what we think of as history, yet are indeed history; these also date back to the Magdelene. P.S. You wrote in a subsequent posting: (Here are three more for George when he is done with the ABD article) I was referring to the 3 sources mentioned by Avigdor. It may be a good idea to see if you can get a copy of that diss by David Weisberg from Michigan... or the published book form... if Avigdor will supply the exact bib ref for you. Regards, Rochelle -- Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Rochelle I. Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
orion-list Oops!
Sorry, I don't know how that note got into the send file. Please disregard. Rochelle -- Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Rochelle I. Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
orion-list The Essene docs and stars in the MT
Some clarification appears to be called for; one can be too terse. The so-called Essene docs lean heavily on Biblical authority. If we go through the MT we find that Biblical use follows logically (and normally) from the concept of 'stars' as the primary example of *place* in the order of things.1 *Place* is extremely important in these older works and this connotation is carried along with the term in all uses.2 Stars = order, correct place: Ju 5:20 rulers:Ge 1:16; Ps 136:9 light: Ec 12:2; Jer 31:35 height:Job 22:12 purity/impurity: Job 25:5 Logical extension: Stars = leaders: Nu 24:7; Da 12:3 Stars = disorder, displacement:Isa 13:10; Job 3:9; Job 9:7; Eze 32:7; Joe 2:10; Joe 3:15; Da 8:10 Logical extension: overweening pride: Isa 14:13; Ob 1:4; Na 3:16 Stars = mensural marker: Finite to God: Ps 147:4 infinite (uncountable) to man: Ge 26:4; Ex 32:13; De 10:22; De 28:62; 1Ch 27:23; Ne 9:23; Am 5:8 Logical Mensural extensions: Stars = people: Ge 15:5; Ge 22:17; Ge 26:4; Ge 37:9 a working day: Ne 4:21; Job 38:7 Stars = Other Human limitations: Stars = God's work: Ps 8:3; Ps 148:3 your star = idol: Am 5:26 Note that in the MT, a human = star meant a leader. Whether or not these are Essene docs, the authors knew and used the MT as authority. Those particular docs date from the 2nd and 1st centuries BCE. Yes, the star trope developed and in perfectly normal ways, but we are talking about documents that date _before_ these developments. The question is: Should we accept assertions that CE developments apply to the writers of these documents in the 2nd-1st centuries BCE? If so, why? RISA 1. The stars appeared to be the one fixed element in an otherwise constantly changing, and bewildering, world. The phrase the stars in their orbits, i.e. each star has its place, encapsules this idea. Thus, place was vitally important, an end to be achieved as a sign of stability. Attempts to bring human society at all levels into ordered harmony with the stars occurs in many parts of the world. In all cases, the stars are a symbol of stability and order, with a place for everything and everything in its place. Conversely, any disruption to the stars (e.g. not shine) indicated displacement and a disturbance to the right order. In China, attempts to bring the world into harmony with the stars through music shows up in written records by 2,000 BCE, but the search for the correct instruments is stated to have been before 3,100 BCE. The Western Harmonia Mundi uses a similar approach of music to bring the world into ordered harmony with the stars/universe. Music, as essential to celestial/earthly harmony, also had to be ordered. When the ancients referred to the colors of music, they meant it. Color was a way of ordering, putting notes in their correct places. In China, the Golden Bell was assigned the central place. In the West, yellow was assigned to 'C', the central place. C = yellow appears in written records 900 years before it was used as a colored staff line in musical documents of the Renaissance. (The Western color assignments may be Pythagorean, then again...) Yellow/Gold indicating the Psalm tone or Mode as 'C', or rather, its relative minor, is used in Medieval musical manuscripts both early and late. 2. We still use place markers: above his/her place (or station), out of his/her place, put in his/her place, etc. -- Dr. R.I.S. Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Rochelle I. Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
orion-list Orion-list: Insider Jokes (was Kings of Yavan)
Kenneth Penner wrote: [snip] Why do you say this is an insider joke? I am aware that Josephus does at other times poke fun at Greeks. Well, because it is. Insider jokes always seem innocent, neutral -- to the outsiders --, simply because the outsiders do not understand the allusions. There is one very important point here: Ant. is literature and makes use of literary conventions. As it _is_ literature and not our modern expectations of what is meant by a history, it must be read as literature. Ant is written in a perennially popular literary genre: the insider expose. Exposes are always written in a serious, these-are-the-facts tone. They *always* contain insider jokes. They also always contain obvious pokes at others -- this is a normal part of the genre. Exposes contain overt apologies to the insiders here and there -- it is part of the genre. They lend the credibility and add authority to the author. These apologies are not for the insiders; they are for the outsiders. The insiders know the material already and can see when the author of an expose starts leading his audience down the garden path -- and laugh at *the outsider audience*. If an expose is to sell, it must be timely: Josephus was timely. If the book is to appeal, it must be written in a manner that suits the tastes of the primary target audience. Ant. was written to suit the well documented Roman taste for the fabulous and the outre. The Romans were always ready to believe the darndest things about other peoples. The correct term is: gullible. The MT is terse; a style not at all to the liking of the Roman intelligentsia. They liked the wordy, periodic style. The Romans distrusted ambiguity; the MT revels in it. The Romans liked the obvious and overstatement; the MT deals in subtlties and understatement. Let's take another look at what Josephus does with his material. Ant is one big insider joke told with a straight face. Josephus pokes fun at the Romans from the very start. Right off the bat, he is inviting insiders to laugh with him at the gullibility of the outsiders. He lays it on with a trowel. Just look what Josephus does with Gen 1:1-31. Then look at Gen 10:4 in the MT and compare it to how Josephus handles the same material in Ant 1:6. His work is chock-a-block with fabulous folk etymolgies; the Romans ate this type of thing up. The Roman audience expected such details -- the stranger the better. Josephus pulls this type of thing all the time. He submerges what little truth he supplies under a mountain of embroidery and fables. He uses every technique in the rhetorical bag of tricks. He omits anything that would actually be harmful to Judeans or could overtly offend (or alert) his audience. (BTW, of course J stopped short of claiming to be an Essene -- he would have had to wander around with a personal shovel if he had... and reader beware when it comes to J's description of the Essenes. Trowel time.) It is repetitious to quote Feldman; I already said that all those cites are correct. As I already explained, Kittim follows an ordinary linguistic path for a pejorative. To repeat: as time passes, pejoratives undergo semantic drift and semantic expansion. A pejorative can refer to *more than one people and to more than one place depending upon context and time frame*. Modern example: the pejoratives dago and wop drifted and expanded from a reference to Spaniards and Spain to refer to Italians and Italy. Dr. Gmirkin, If J's technique worked on the Romans and still works on some people, then one can hardly say that Josephus is not subtle. Now, I wrote that, By the trans-exilic period, the term has expanded yet again; it is now clearly a pejorative and still refers to _some_ Greeks. Does this not make it clear that some Greeks are considered bad, that is, Kittim, and that some are considered good, that is, Yavanim? What has been gained by a reiteration? I'm feeling kind today, although an oompah award is in order. The negative association is hardly a circular argument or my reading. I did not believe it necessary to state the obvious: Kittim is associated with trained warriors and invaders. The associations are within the term itself (See Num 24:24). To say that Kittim has military-mercenary associations is both a tautology and a deception. What are mercenaries if not hired warriors who are used primarily on distant *foreign* soil? Kittim has military-mercenary associations with *invaders* -- specifically from a distant place. That neighbors fight was a given. It adds insult to injury when distant foreigners get into the act. Invading foreign military- mercenary peoples hold strong negative connotations for the recipients of this honor. Kittim is the name for _all_ such greedy predators. Kittim is most definitely a pejorative. Ciao, Rochelle -- Dr. Rochelle I. Altman, co-coordinator IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Rochelle I. Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: orion-list Head of the kings of Yavan
On 2001-07-15 Dierk van den Berg wrote: - The terminus technicus 'Kittim' corresponds to Jub's 'Mighty Men (ie professionals) of War' A euphemism in Jubilees as a technical terminus?? Kittim corresponds to professional sea-vermin. as well as to Josephus' 'Macedonians'. This is hardly Josephus's idea. In 1 Mac 1:1, Alexander the Great is said to be born in Kittim (the typical expansion of a pejorative that I mentioned), but in the same verse he is also called Alexander of Macedonia. The 'Cypriotes' in 2Macc, for example, belong in to that military category. - Romans are indeed 'Sea-people', at least after the Punic Wars, the Pirate War, the Civil War and Octavian's takeover. After a post where reading in context is emphasized? There is a substantial difference between sea-peoples used as a pejorative back then and sea- peoples used as a reference to maritime peoples, that is, people who are at home on the sea. This is a clear distinction which should be obvious from context. *As I already said*, the Romans became numbered among the vermin who operated from ships: the Kittim. The Romans, however, were not sea-peoples; they were landlubbers. They were not at home on the sea; they were rotten seamen. They couldn't balance a load to save their lives. The Romans were always losing ships because of improper lading. (Which is why some magnificent large bronzes are still here in Greece instead of in some Western Museum.) The Romans were such poor seamen that they would ship their legions across the English channel to Brittany and then march them overland -- even when the troops were urgently needed back at Rome. The trip by sea from Southern England to Italy took at most 3 days... While certainly overseen by the Romans, grain and trade shipments were mostly left to the maritime professionals: the Greeks and the Phoenicians. The Phoenicians didn't disappear from the scene merely because Carthage was taken by land and lost the 2nd Punic war. The Phoenicians held the distance and blue water trade routes under the Pax Assyriaca; they still held them under the Pax Romana... and everybody knew it. For Josephus' contemporaries, thus, only Rome was a naval power. Other ideas are illusory anachronism. Naval merely means 'related to or of a navy'. There is quite a difference between a military navy and a merchant navy -- and expertise. Josephus emends the text of Gen 10:4. By your reckoning, he is also taking a dig at the Romans. Oh, incidentally, a few items that have been left open. First, the Romans were rather good at cartography -- probably learned it from the Greeks. Latitudinally, they were fairly close -- using their mensural base of the Roman mile. Longitude, though, requires accurate clocks: the chronometer was not invented until the 17th century CE. The sea voyage from the west coast of Hibernia to Cornwall took 2 days. Hence, Roman maps show the British Isles as being a two-day march in Roman miles from the Iberian peninsula. Also, the fossil record shows that palm trees are not native to the Nile valley. Palms *are* native to the Asian side of the Eastern Mediterranean -- and have been since the cretaceous. According to fossils, the date palm arrived in the area of Judea sometime between 20 million and 130 million years ago. The date palm was indeed an import: it was imported INTO Egypt less then 9,000 years ago. Cheers, Rochelle -- Dr. Rochelle I. Altman, co-coordinator IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Rochelle I. Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILER BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Libraries (was: Kraft on Goranson on Pliny) 4
as a vehicle of exploration and edification clearly is pre- historic even though our earliest written examples date back to Sumer. Moderns, however, mistakenly assume fiction to be useless, irrelevant, siwash, and even, to quote one 'gentleman', mental masturbation -- all statements which display a gross misunderstanding of the role of fiction in a culture. Judea was not isolated and there is no reason to believe that record room temple/governmental libraries of the Sumerian/Akkadian/Ugaritic model did not exist in Judea at the time of the DSS. Indeed, there is evidence that Greek temples had this type of Semitic mixed record room/libraries. While direct evidence for such pseudo-public libraries in Judea is currently only inferential, there is *primary* evidence for private libraries in Judea: bookshop products. Bookshop products do more than indicate a literate society; they also indicate private and/or group collections. Bookshop products show up throughout the urban centers from antiquity and on down the millenia. They certainly show up among the DSS. Nor do we know where those DSS bookshop scrolls originated: Jerusalem was only one of the urban centers in Judea. The massive number of hands and the variety in fonts and mutations of fonts does more than imply different sites of origin: these multiplicities state it. As bookshop products are never official or authoritative -- they are literary fiction --, they tell us what subjects were of vital interest in a society. They also tell us that there were private and/or group libraries in the Judea of the DSS. Regards, Rochelle -- Dr. Rochelle I. Altman, co-coordinator IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Rochelle I. Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il.
Re: orion-list Rural Scribes (long)
not identify a people; script does. Nikkos Kokkinos has been working from the Syro-Phoenician end. We have to consider Kokkinos' point that Near-Eastern Phoenicians converted to Judaism as well as to Christianity... early. After all, Ignatius wrote ca. 110 CE. Seleucid Syria covered a very large area and we have a language puree. This branch of the Phoenicians used Greek and Syriac for religious writings -- depending upon locale. In some areas, we also find Latin texts. Seleucid Syria followed the literate urban-illiterate rural model. The coastal plains were urbanized and essentially literate. As Antioch was the third largest city under the Imperium, behind only Rome and Alexandria, they would have had bookshops, too. How many of those documents are in Greek and Latin and are actually from one of the Syro-Phoenician sites? Gamble may correct for those areas that chose Latin, while Trobisch may be correct for those areas that stuck to Greek and Hebrew or Syriac. But there is another Phoenician area: the Western branch. If documents originated among the Sardo-Phoenician, Malto-Phoenician, Hispano-Phoenician, or Afro-Phoenician areas, we are talking about literate societies. The only difficulty here is the shifting structure of the power-language. After the First Punic War, Sardinia, which had a Phoenician presence from the 9th- century BCE and was a wholly Western Phoenician territory from the 7th BCE, came under Roman control. By the Second Punic War, Africa became Roman, as well. There is evidence that these Western-Phoenician areas were among the earliest converted - possibly even before a Christian presence in Alexandria - and that the early texts of this branch of the Phoenicians were in *Greek and Hebrew*. By the third-fourth century, however, every one of these Western Phoenician areas used *Latin* for religious texts. They designed their own Latin scripts for those texts... and had their own Christian burial formula. How many of those docs are in Greek and Latin and actually are from one of these Western Phoenician sites? In these areas, Gamble may be correct. Please do not think that I underestimate the value of either Gamble or Trobisch, but the picture is far more complicated. Likewise, the picture among the DSS is both simpler and more complicated than it appears to be. I hope this is not too off-topic for Orion, as the question of who was copying what and for what reasons crosses platforms. Yes, it does cross platforms. Nonetheless, I think it best that any further discussion be off-list. Regards, Rochelle -- Dr. Rochelle I. Altman, co-coordinator IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Rochelle I. Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il.
Re: orion-list Rural Scribes
Ian (Young), Almost by definition, rural areas had a low literacy rate. Rural scribes were village scribes. They were letter writers, registrars, conveyancers, tax collectors, and notaries -- they were not bookshops. Bookshops need a literate public in order to survive. Bookshops are found in urban areas with a relatuvely high literacy rate. Bookshop products are never authoritative. The great majority of ancient scrolls, tablets, and codices we have (including the DSS) appear to have three separate origins; 1. Authoritative/official products of what can best be called a chancery/authoritative writing room. 2. Editions created by individuals for their private (or family/group) use. 3. Bookshop productions of multiple copies of some edition of literature (fiction, philosophy, speculation, etc.) for which there was a significant demand or special order. It is usually possible (and not difficult) to determine the provenance of a document from the size, format and script employed. The sectarian documents (e.g. 1QS, 1QSa, 1QM, 4QMMT) are the products of bookshops; hence urban in origin -- and literary texts. Best regards, Rochelle -- Dr. Rochelle I. Altman, co-coordinator IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Rochelle I. Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il.
orion-list Cemeteries
Dr. Zangenberg, I stand corrected; I forgot about Khirbet Qazone. However, I am not being anachronistic; just very cautious about coming to conclusions on insufficient or skewed data. The mass graves of antiquity and later have little to do with "a democratic society granting their fallen an individual burial." Most soldiers fight on foreign soil; they always have. Unlike, for instance, generals, the rank and file soldiers were anonymous; few had someone to search through the fallen bodies and say: "That is my husband, my father, my son, my brother, my uncle." When soldiers do not have someone to claim them *and* to take them home, mass burials are the answer. As late as the early 20th century, soldiers fighting on foreign soil, even though identified, tended to have been buried in long trench graves as they could not be taken home. One does not need a democratic society, one needs someone to identify the body AND to take it home -- as grave stelae and other markers for regular soldiers from antiquity through today attest. Burial customs differ widely from society to society. We do not know what the customs were for the burial of a group of claimed bodies at the time. I am hesitant to come to conclusions based on the mass graves of anonymous soldiers who fought on foreign soil; this is a skewed data base. 2) None of the skeletons published so far shows any traces of wounds typical for ancient warfare. This is a good point, as the mass graves are not. (I said IF...THEN, darn it!) Finally, let me close with the remark that I do not have to make up things in order to get a job. Neither do I. Aside from having lived and worked in such climates, and thus am aware that the life-style attributed to the Essenes by Josephus is not a viable way of life at Qumran, my primary argument against the "Essene" hypo- thesis is that the so-called "Essene" documents tell us that they are merely writings, and neither authoritative nor official. Rochelle -- Dr. Rochelle I. Altman, co-coordinator IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to "Rochelle I. Altman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: "unsubscribe Orion." Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il.
Re: orion-list Dr Falk's 10 hours
Hi, David West, Happy to hear that you researched water needs before backpacking around the Grand Canyon... the resemblance to Qumran, however, is indeed modest. The Colorado River runs through there, the pine forests run nearly up to the Park, and the North Rim is closed in winter due to heavy snow. A better comparison would be the desert near Yuma, or The Saguaro National Forest south of Ajo. Hard science on the water consumption of hardworking, sensible people who adopt intelligent strategies to avoid the heat of the day may not exist. Oh, they exist all right; a great deal of research has been done on the subject. I gave two already. (Adolph's was BG -- before the creation of Gatorade ca. 1970's.) The internet is a great resource for Mac-Information, but when it comes to serious research, the library beats it all hollow. Of the several hundred items that turned up on a quick search of LOC, I pulled out 47 refs directly relevant to this discussion -- all with bibs, in just 25 minutes.* These range from studies concerning: Libya to Bursina Faso, from India to Australia, from Israel to Japan, from the USA to the Sudan. Works appear written in, for example, English, Japanese, Polish, German, French, Turkish, and Hebrew. There are studies for design engineers and studies on Israel's climate problems; one performed at the request of the Mandate officials. None of these studies has anything to do with athletes and everything to do with living and working under high heat conditions. The largest consumption number that I have seen is "4 to 8 oz. every 15 to 20 minutes during heavy exercise". Strangely, that range stretches from .75 liters per hour (your experience, Dr Falk) to 2 liters per hour (Dr Altman's conservative number.) The citation for that figure is a bit tricky. Not too surprising G as both figures are correct. Consumption is directly proportional to loss which depends upon many factors of which the most important are: ambient temperature, nature of the physical labor, advective loss (i.e increased evaporation due to wind), and solar radiation (ambient temperature only measures the temperature in the shade). Note that the radiation figure is strongly affected by clothing; even one extra layer of loose cloth can reduce its effect substantially. Cheerfully yours, Rochelle * If anybody would like the bibs, please contact me privately. -- Dr. Rochelle I. Altman, co-coordinator IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to "Rochelle I. Altman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: "unsubscribe Orion." Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il.
orion-list Reality Check, etc.
I just realized that my post could be construed as a personal attack on Dr. Zias. It was not intended as such. Rochelle -- Dr. Rochelle I. Altman, co-coordinator IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to "Rochelle I. Altman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: "unsubscribe Orion." Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il.
Re: orion-list Essenes at Qumran: A Reality Check
Peter, The figures are "unrealistic," if and only if one does not pay attention to what is written. I did not make an unqualified statement. One can get by on less, IF one is sedentary; as I *stated*. One can make it thorugh the day on much less, IF one adapts one's life-style to the climate, as do the Bedouins. Nevertheless, one still will need to make up the deficit at the next water source. The figure I gave, 32 liters per person per day, is a conservative average of sedentary time and *physical labor* time -- which I also stated. At 40 and more Celsius, 32 liters is not an exagger- ation -- and the Essenes who are described as doing physical labor in fields (not to mention carrying around shovels and digging little holes to bury their fecal matter, both of which are more physical labor), would certainly need that much. I hesitate to mention it, but this material on human physiology, water to bone, and water requirements, etc. really is elementary; it was covered in my secondary school Biology textbook. In any case, happy to oblige with a bib. I have included my physiology-biochem textbook (which I still have G), a book I read so I could test a friend for her RN finals, and two books that caught my eye at the library. (Probably because I was living in yet another arid climate at the time: Metro Phoenix, AZ.) You can then calculate the water requirements yourself. Adolph, Edward F. et al _ Physiology of man in the desert_. NY: Hafner Pub. Co., 1969; 1947. (With lots of information on the effect of an arid environment on humans, body temperatures, water needs for metabolic requirements, and so on.) Bell, George H., J. Norman Davidson, and Harold Scarborough. _Textbook of physiology and biochemistry_. Fwd by Robert C. Garry. 2d ed. Edinburgh, E.S. Livingstone; Baltimore, Williams Wilkins, 1953. Poulton, E. C., _Environment and human efficiency_. Springfield, Ill., Thomas, 1970. (Note: focus on Physiological stress, including heat stress.) Selkurt, Ewald E., ed. _Basic physiology for the health sciences_. Boston: Little, Brown, 1975. Yes, I do take it to reductio ad absurdum -- and this was quite on purpose; the argument that Qumran had to be the site of Pliny's "Essene" settlement, after all, is absurd and has been repeated ad nauseum. The point, of course, is that sufficient water could not have been brought in from an outside source for people who lived the life-style attributed to the Essenes, not even for so small a number as 80 souls -- which I *also* stated. The rainfall, with care, is sufficient for, at most, 120 men doing a sedentary job. There neither was nor is water to waste in that environment. A read through the Adolph will fully illustrate why the Essene life-style as decribed is not adapted to the climate. Rochelle PS: If those are "ritual baths," where did they store their drinking, cooking, and agricultural water? -- Dr. Rochelle I. Altman, co-coordinator IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to "Rochelle I. Altman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: "unsubscribe Orion." Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il.
