Re: [osg-users] Laptop switchable graphics and OSG / OpenGL apps?
Hi guys, Just a progress report, some encouraging news. I've been discussing with nvidia dev support on these issues since Friday. They have really been responsive and quick, and they are thorough in their investigations too (I guess I was lucky because the guy replying had the same model laptop on his desk for an unrelated issue, so he could test exactly the same drivers on the same hardware). The white paper on nvidia's site http://www.nvidia.com/object/optimus_technology.html says these three automatically power on the GPU: DX Calls: Any 3D game engine or DirectX application will trigger these calls DXVA Calls: Video playback will trigger these calls (DXVA = DirectX Video Acceleration) CUDA Calls: CUDA applications will trigger these calls Hmm, interesting. Why didn't they include OpenGL calls in the list? Seems like a glaring oversight. They are looking into it, but the nvidia developer I'm talking to things this part of the whitepaper is not totally accurate, and in fact the switching is 100% profile-based. However, if after his investigation he finds out that indeed, Optimus switches when it sees DirectX calls, then he says OpenGL calls should indeed lead to the same behavior, and they will modify it to do so in a later version. But it really hinges on whether that's the intended behavior or not. The lack of working profiles and API seems pretty problematic. One could always run some CUDA code at startup, but it doesn't say how shutdown is determined, and this really reeks of a kludge. About profiles, I guess the fact they don't persist must be a bug that might have been fixed in a later driver version. It would be nice to at least be able to programmatically add profiles, so users don't have to manually create them. I've retested doing a clean install of the 280.26 driver from nvidia's site, and profiles work for us now. So that's at least encouraging. The other part of the discussion is that I suggested they add some way for an app to send a hint to the driver that this app requires the dedicated graphics. I would really prefer some way that didn't require linking to an nvidia-provided library (something as simple as the app using putenv() to push a specific env var into its active environment might work IMHO). But any way really would be better than requiring users to create a profile for your app. I think it'll probably end up being in nvapi (http://developer.nvidia.com/nvapi). Since Optimus is currently Windows-only anyways I think that's the path they'll choose. Anyways, the discussion is still ongoing, I'll update again when I get some more info. J-S -- __ Jean-Sébastien Guayjean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com http://www.cm-labs.com/ http://whitestar02.dyndns-web.com/ ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Laptop switchable graphics and OSG / OpenGL apps?
J-S, Thanks for the update. Since Optimus is currently Windows-only anyways I think that's the path they'll choose. Just as an extra point, Ironhide lets you use Optimus under Linux. I haven't done any performance testing, but I was able to to manually activate the Nvidia card under linux and run OpenGL apps on it. http://www.martin-juhl.dk/2011/08/ironhide-reporting-for-duty/ Martins ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Laptop switchable graphics and OSG / OpenGL apps?
Hi Martins, Since Optimus is currently Windows-only anyways I think that's the path they'll choose. Just as an extra point, Ironhide lets you use Optimus under Linux. I haven't done any performance testing, but I was able to to manually activate the Nvidia card under linux and run OpenGL apps on it. http://www.martin-juhl.dk/2011/08/ironhide-reporting-for-duty/ Yes, I've seen lots about Optimus and its Linux supporters Prime, Bumblebee and Ironhide. Transformers FTW :-) What I meant was that nvidia supports Optimus on Windows only. If they change that at any point I'd expect them to provide an equivalent to nvapi and Optimus switching on Linux too, but for now they seem to have no plans for that. And from what I've seen, Bumblebee and Ironhide are not automatic anyways, you need to run your app in a wrapper like this: optirun yourApp and it will switch to dedicated graphics for the runtime of your app. So it's kind of like profiles, not automatic. If nvidia adds an API in nvapi to allow an app to hint that it should run on dedicated graphics, then I guess it would be pretty easy for Ironhide to do it too. J-S -- __ Jean-Sébastien Guayjean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com http://www.cm-labs.com/ http://whitestar02.dyndns-web.com/ ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
[osg-users] Laptop switchable graphics and OSG / OpenGL apps?
Hi all, We have recently bought a few good laptops (Lenovo W520) to be able to work at customers' sites, and these come equipped with Intel graphics AND an nVidia Quadro 2000M discrete card. They are supposed to use (buzzword alert) nVidia's Optimus technology to automatically switch between the two based on the app that's currently running. This seems to work well for games I've tried (all based on DirectX). The games clearly don't use the integrated graphics, they run well on high settings (the same I use on my desktop that has a GTX470). However, our own OSG-based apps seem to not be recognized as needing the discrete graphics, and even adding a profile for our app's executable in nVidia Control Panel, telling it to force using the discrete graphics for that app, doesn't work. Our app crashes when loading textures, somewhere in the Intel driver. I haven't tested other OpenGL apps. I will soon. As I see it I have 2 options: 1. Switch to discrete graphics only in the BIOS. I've tried this and it works, but I'd either have to accept the higher battery usage when I'm not using a graphics app, or have to reboot and switch back manually depending on the situation. So it's inconvenient. 2. Write to nVidia to see if they have any hints about how to make Optimus see that our app needs the discrete graphics. Maybe there's a call we can make at the start of our main() that would be a hint to the OpenGL driver? Actually I would have thought that any time OpenGL is used at all (context created, etc.) it would switch to discrete, so this may be a bug in the driver if it's not the case. Has anyone had any experience with this technology? I think it's a good idea, if it worked well it would really be the best of both worlds - low battery usage when no 3D apps are running, and speed when you need it. But as it stands it's a bit inconvenient. Thanks in advance, J-S -- __ Jean-Sébastien Guayjean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com http://www.cm-labs.com/ http://whitestar02.dyndns-web.com/ ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Laptop switchable graphics and OSG / OpenGL apps?
On 9/9/2011 10:29 AM, Jean-Sébastien Guay wrote: We have recently bought a few good laptops (Lenovo W520) to be able to work at customers' sites, and these come equipped with Intel graphics AND an nVidia Quadro 2000M discrete card. They are supposed to use (buzzword alert) nVidia's Optimus technology to automatically switch between the two based on the app that's currently running. I just received one of these (not my laptop, but my wife's). I can try to poke at it here as well. -- Chris 'Xenon' Hanson, omo sanza lettere. xe...@alphapixel.com http://www.alphapixel.com/ Digital Imaging. OpenGL. Scene Graphs. GIS. GPS. Training. Consulting. Contracting. There is no Truth. There is only Perception. To Perceive is to Exist. - Xen ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Laptop switchable graphics and OSG / OpenGL apps?
Replying to myself, I haven't tested other OpenGL apps. I will soon. I just tried Lightsmark 2008 [http://dee.cz/lightsmark/] and it wouldn't start, saying in its log file that Graphics card driver doesn't support OpenGL 2.0. So I guess that's the same result as our OSG app I tried before. I got the same result (error saying my GPU doesn't support OpenGL 2.0) from FurMark [http://www.ozone3d.net/benchmarks/fur/]. I think I'll write to nVidia to see what they have to say. J-S -- __ Jean-Sébastien Guayjean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com http://www.cm-labs.com/ http://whitestar02.dyndns-web.com/ ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Laptop switchable graphics and OSG / OpenGL apps?
J-S, On 9/9/11 12:29 PM, Jean-Sébastien Guay wrote: However, our own OSG-based apps seem to not be recognized as needing the discrete graphics, and even adding a profile for our app's executable in nVidia Control Panel, telling it to force using the discrete graphics for that app, doesn't work. Our app crashes when loading textures, somewhere in the Intel driver. Just this morning I started testing on one of these laptops (Dell XPS17). By adding a profile for the specific .exe I wanted to run, I got the Nvidia graphics to kick in for our OSG application. I have not yet found a way for that card to start automatically with OpenGL apps. Martins ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Laptop switchable graphics and OSG / OpenGL apps?
Hi Martins, Just this morning I started testing on one of these laptops (Dell XPS17). By adding a profile for the specific .exe I wanted to run, I got the Nvidia graphics to kick in for our OSG application. I have not yet found a way for that card to start automatically with OpenGL apps. Which version of the drivers are you using? I'm using 280.26 from nVidia's site, and even creating a profile and setting that profile to run on High-performance NVIDIA Processor didn't work for me. Even if I tried to force it to the discrete graphics globally (in the Global Settings instead of Program Settings where you create a profile) didn't work either. The only thing that worked for me was forcing it in the BIOS. That's something that should work, and I guess it might be a bug in my version of the nVidia control panel. Still, if we could just have the app tell the driver that it needs discrete graphics, instead of having to make a profile for *each* app, on *each* laptop, that would be better. I've written to nVidia to see if they have some more info about this. Thanks, J-S -- __ Jean-Sébastien Guayjean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com http://www.cm-labs.com/ http://whitestar02.dyndns-web.com/ ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Laptop switchable graphics and OSG / OpenGL apps?
J-S, Which version of the drivers are you using? I'm using 268.30, the most recent as provided by Dell specifically for my laptop. I have not tried any of the drivers on Nvidia's site. I'm using 280.26 from nVidia's site, and even creating a profile and setting that profile to run on High-performance NVIDIA Processor didn't work for me. Even if I tried to force it to the discrete graphics globally (in the Global Settings instead of Program Settings where you create a profile) didn't work either. The only thing that worked for me was forcing it in the BIOS. My only option is to create a profile for each application as you described above, as Dell doesn't provide any option to force it from the Bios. If I could, I would just disable it that way. That's something that should work, and I guess it might be a bug in my version of the nVidia control panel. Still, if we could just have the app tell the driver that it needs discrete graphics, instead of having to make a profile for *each* app, on *each* laptop, that would be better. I hope a better solution becomes available. This could be a support nightmare when distributing applications. Martins ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Laptop switchable graphics and OSG / OpenGL apps?
Hi Martins, I'm using 268.30, the most recent as provided by Dell specifically for my laptop. I have not tried any of the drivers on Nvidia's site. Well, I just reverted to the 268.71 version that is provided by Lenovo. On this version, selecting the discrete graphics in the Global Settings tab works, but profiles I add don't seem to be saved (I close and re-open the nVidia control panel and the profiles I added are gone). So I guess I have a workaround to enable the nVidia graphics chip when I need it without rebooting and doing it in the BIOS, but I hope nVidia reply to my message and fix profiles, and possibly have a way for apps to tell it where to run. That would be the best. I hope a better solution becomes available. This could be a support nightmare when distributing applications. Indeed. J-S -- __ Jean-Sébastien Guayjean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com http://www.cm-labs.com/ http://whitestar02.dyndns-web.com/ ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Laptop switchable graphics and OSG / OpenGL apps?
On 9/9/2011 1:01 PM, Martins Innus wrote: I'm using 268.30, the most recent as provided by Dell specifically for my laptop. Reason number 1 why I have quit buying Dell. -- Chris 'Xenon' Hanson, omo sanza lettere. xe...@alphapixel.com http://www.alphapixel.com/ Digital Imaging. OpenGL. Scene Graphs. GIS. GPS. Training. Consulting. Contracting. There is no Truth. There is only Perception. To Perceive is to Exist. - Xen ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Laptop switchable graphics and OSG / OpenGL apps?
The white paper on nvidia's site http://www.nvidia.com/object/optimus_technology.html says these three automatically power on the GPU: DX Calls: Any 3D game engine or DirectX application will trigger these calls DXVA Calls: Video playback will trigger these calls (DXVA = DirectX Video Acceleration) CUDA Calls: CUDA applications will trigger these calls The lack of working profiles and API seems pretty problematic. One could always run some CUDA code at startup, but it doesn't say how shutdown is determined, and this really reeks of a kludge. Ryan On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 2:26 PM, Jean-Sébastien Guay jean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com wrote: Hi Martins, I'm using 268.30, the most recent as provided by Dell specifically for my laptop. I have not tried any of the drivers on Nvidia's site. Well, I just reverted to the 268.71 version that is provided by Lenovo. On this version, selecting the discrete graphics in the Global Settings tab works, but profiles I add don't seem to be saved (I close and re-open the nVidia control panel and the profiles I added are gone). So I guess I have a workaround to enable the nVidia graphics chip when I need it without rebooting and doing it in the BIOS, but I hope nVidia reply to my message and fix profiles, and possibly have a way for apps to tell it where to run. That would be the best. I hope a better solution becomes available. This could be a support nightmare when distributing applications. Indeed. J-S -- __** Jean-Sébastien Guay jean-sebastien.guay@cm-labs.**comjean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com http://www.cm-labs.com/ http://whitestar02.dyndns-web.**com/http://whitestar02.dyndns-web.com/ __**_ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.**openscenegraph.org osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.**org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-** openscenegraph.orghttp://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org -- Ryan Pavlik HCI Graduate Student Virtual Reality Applications Center Iowa State University rpav...@iastate.edu http://academic.cleardefinition.com ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Laptop switchable graphics and OSG / OpenGL apps?
Hi Ryan, The white paper on nvidia's site http://www.nvidia.com/object/optimus_technology.html says these three automatically power on the GPU: DX Calls: Any 3D game engine or DirectX application will trigger these calls DXVA Calls: Video playback will trigger these calls (DXVA = DirectX Video Acceleration) CUDA Calls: CUDA applications will trigger these calls Hmm, interesting. Why didn't they include OpenGL calls in the list? Seems like a glaring oversight. The lack of working profiles and API seems pretty problematic. One could always run some CUDA code at startup, but it doesn't say how shutdown is determined, and this really reeks of a kludge. I guess the switch persists until the running application ends... About profiles, I guess the fact they don't persist must be a bug that might have been fixed in a later driver version. It would be nice to at least be able to programmatically add profiles, so users don't have to manually create them. J-S -- __ Jean-Sebastien Guayjean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com http://www.cm-labs.com/ http://whitestar02.dyndns-web.com/ ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
