Re: [PAYCO]

[Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi]

Comrade Chargein

The two approaches are contradictory both can unfold simultaneously leading
to a PAC UNITY National Conference, that is, Bottom-up and Dissolution of
parallel NEC's the formation of a Joint Committee then PAC National Unity
Conference.

Shango lashu
Nkrumah

On 14 Sep 2016 09:40, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:

> Comrade Nkrumah
>
> Who calls the conference may be a major obstacle to my proposal but it can
> be overcome through collective effort. The feasible solution is to convene
> the special conference or congress jointly and the conference / congress to
> be co-chared by the joint  / collective leadership of the three NECs (two
> PAC NECS and PAM NEC). That is, the two PAC NECs and PAM NEC  to come
> together and convene the conference / congress jointly. That is not
> something new. After the PAC unbanning, the PAC Central Committee from
> exile under the leadership of PAC Chairman Johnson Mlambo and PAM NEC
> (representing PAC in the hone front) under the leadership of President
> Clarence Makwetu convened the 2nd PAC Congress jointly to elect the
> collective PAC leadership. Comrade Johnson Mlambo and other former PAC
> leaders can advised the joint committee how to convene conference /
> congress jointly from their experience. The joint committee may be composed
> of two representives from two PAC factions and PAM e,g, presidents and
> secretary=-generals of the three factions. Any arrangement can be decided
> on.  Nothing is impossible.
>
> I know Mbinda-Moloto will try to resist the inclusion of Mphahlele's
> faction in the convening of the conference / congress. The truth is there
> can be no unity withiin the PAC without Mphahlele's faction. That we must
> admit it. We all need each other. Mbinda faction needs both PAM and
> Mphahlele's faction and vice-versa. I know many people are scared of
> Mphahlele as an individual for his consistence for what he believes in but
> they cannot wish him away from the PAC just like that. He is part and
> parcel of the PAC. He is an asset and liability of the PAC like Mabaso,
> Ntsie, Narius, Fihla, Mbinda, etc. We are products of PAC and no other
> political party. To wish us away from the PAC is wishful thinking. We will
> remain PAC inside or outside PAC. PAC must just learn how to live with us
> like Julius Malaema to the ANC  or else we will be a toothache to the PAC,
> both individually or collectively. That is a fact.
>
> Comrades, PAM has no preconditions before attending PAC Special unity
> Conference/Congress if we are invited accordingly and as long as we are
> invited by PAC, not PAC factions (both Mbinda and Mphahlele faction or even
> new PAC faction). We will definitely attend a properly organised PAC
> Special Conference / Congress as long it will be organiised in line with
> the PAC Constitution adopted before Qwaqwa Congress (at Tompie Seleka
> Congress) as that is undoctored PAC Constitution.  If PAC does not have it,
> we have it in our custody.
>
> Comrades, we are not scared to be swallowed by PAC leadership. We know
> what we stand for and what we expect for PAC unity to materialize.  We have
> the right to march out of any unity conference / congress if it is not what
> we expected or even later breakaway from the unholy marriage. We are not
> obliged to unite if we are not the like-minded.
>
> That is our position.
>
> Izwe Lethu!
>
> On 13 September 2016 at 18:57, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi <
> nrkgag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Cde Chargein
>>
>> Conference convened by who, when there are parallel NEC's?
>>
>> Which Constitution become applicable to convene such a conference since
>> Mbinda-Moloto leadership faction follows it's own adopted in 2015 while
>> others follow GaMatlala 2000 Constitution?
>>
>> Will PAM accede to follow PAC protocols?
>>
>> Shango lashu
>>
>> Nkrumah
>>
>> On 13 Sep 2016 17:54, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:
>>
>>> Comrade Nkrumah
>>>
>>> i made my proposal in the document i drafted. I believe a special
>>> unity conference or congress should be convened to do wholistic
>>> introspextion and maximum self-criticism and ceiticism as a party,
>>> learn lessons from our successes and failures, take drastic
>>> resolutions to uproot factiomalism in the party, disband all factions
>>> and NEC structures elected based on factions, develop Party-building
>>> programme to unite the Party into a great party, establish collective
>>> leadership for collective responsibility, etc .
>>>
>>> On 13/09/2016, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi  wrote:
>>> > Cde Chargein
>>> >
>>> > Point taken, then what's your proposal to defactionalise and forge
>>> > principled unity?
>>> >
>>> > Regards
>>> > Nkrumah
>>> >
>>> > On 13 Sep 2016 13:34, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Comrade Nkrumah
>>> >>
>>> >> Sorry, I meant Bottom-up approach.
>>> >>
>>> >> The explanation you gave do not assist
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On 13 September 2016 at 

Re: [PAYCO]

[Chargein Mabaso]

The problem is: How do you dissolve the two contested PAC NEC structures
not in a conference / congress, the highest decision-making bodies of the
Party, as per the PAC Constitution? How do you convene the properly
constituted PAC National Conference / Congress in line with the PAC
Constitution? Which clause (s) in the PAC Constitution will be followed to
establish the new structure constitutionally and also have the powers to
convene the PAC National Conference or Congress in line with the PAC
Constitution? According to the PAC Constitution, it is only the PAC NEC has
powers to convene the PAC National Conference / Congress, not other
structure?(Refer to the PAC Constitution). All PAC activities are only
guided by the PAC Basic Documents, nothing more, nothing less. Hence, the
need to get the buy-in from the existing NEC structures as constitutionally
recognized entities elected in a PAC "Conferences" because they constitute
PAC National leadership even by default. I used "Conferences" to emphasize
the fact that that is so even if their status is debatable within the PAC.
Remember, the decisions of courts of laws are not in line with and outside
the PAC Constitution. They cannot be reached in violation of the PAC
Constitution and then be binding to PAC members. Mbinda-led NEC may be
legally recognised as PAC NEC but may at the same time unconstitutional and
illlegimate within the PAC because it was elected in violation of the PAC
Constitution. The same may apply to Mphahlele-led NEC. It is only a
properly constituted PAC Conference / Conference can make such a decision,
not courts or law or some kangaroo courts in some corners. Hence, the need
to convene a properly constituted PAC Conference / Congress jointly
organised by, at least, the two PAC NECs.

Comrade, let's remember: two wrongs do not make a right. We cannot correct
the wrongs of others through our own wrong ways. The right way to run PAC
affairs is to do everything in line with the PAC Basic Documents,
especially the Constitution in this case. Any decisions (resolutions) taken
outside the PAC national conferences / congresses are not PAC decisions
(resolutions). Party decisions affecting branches are taken at branch
meetings or AGMs, those affecting regional  or provincial structures are
taken at Regional or provincial conferences / congresses and also those
affecting national structures are taken at national conferences /
congresses as per the PAC Constitution as we know it. Any decisions taken
not in line with the PAC Constitution are not PAC decisions / resolutions.

This simply means the bottom-up approach will be in violation of the PAC
Constitution and as such will be unconstitutional. That is the reason I
said there is no logic in this approach as far as PAC processes and
constitution are concerned. Its result will not be different from the
Top-down approach. Both approaches are recipes for a breakaway from the PAC
because their outcomes will not be PAC structures as per the PAC
Constitution.The current leadership will be justify to expel the organisers
of those dubious conferences / congresses as rebels who are destined to
damage the image of PAC.  Both approaches (Bottom-up / Top-dpwn) will reach
political cul-del-sac very soon. Their results will suffer from illegality,
unconstitutionality and illegitimacy.

I rest my case.

Izwe Lethu!





On 14 September 2016 at 13:19, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi 
wrote:

> Comrade Chargein
>
> The two approaches are contradictory both can unfold simultaneously
> leading to a PAC UNITY National Conference, that is, Bottom-up and
> Dissolution of parallel NEC's the formation of a Joint Committee then PAC
> National Unity Conference.
>
> Shango lashu
> Nkrumah
>
> On 14 Sep 2016 09:40, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:
>
>> Comrade Nkrumah
>>
>> Who calls the conference may be a major obstacle to my proposal but it
>> can be overcome through collective effort. The feasible solution is to
>> convene the special conference or congress jointly and the conference /
>> congress to be co-chared by the joint  / collective leadership of the three
>> NECs (two PAC NECS and PAM NEC). That is, the two PAC NECs and PAM NEC  to
>> come together and convene the conference / congress jointly. That is not
>> something new. After the PAC unbanning, the PAC Central Committee from
>> exile under the leadership of PAC Chairman Johnson Mlambo and PAM NEC
>> (representing PAC in the hone front) under the leadership of President
>> Clarence Makwetu convened the 2nd PAC Congress jointly to elect the
>> collective PAC leadership. Comrade Johnson Mlambo and other former PAC
>> leaders can advised the joint committee how to convene conference /
>> congress jointly from their experience. The joint committee may be composed
>> of two representives from two PAC factions and PAM e,g, presidents and
>> secretary=-generals of the three factions. Any arrangement can be decided
>> on.  Nothing is 

Re: [PAYCO]

[Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi]

Cde Chargein

A provincial unity meeting is planned for the October 2015, I encourage you
attend provincial meetings and also there will be Vaal Regional meeting
somewhere in October.

Shango lashu
Nkrumah

On 14 Sep 2016 18:01, "Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi"  wrote:

> Cde Chargein
>
> Best we meet and discuss these approaches, some parts of your arguments
> hold other have their own defects and self contradictory. And, no court
> ruled in favour of Mbinda-Moloto as legitimate national leadership of PAC,
> the same applies to the parallel Letlapa's NEC. The latest judgement refers
> Mbinda-Moloto NEC as a line of communication for or on IEC related matters,
> elections had passed consequently their elections role has lapsed.
>
> If both parallel NECs are illegitimate as per PAC Constitution then an
> illegitimate structure can't be entrusted pursue legitimate constitutional
> roles.
>
> If Mbinda-Moloto NECs and Letlapa's NEC reject a reconciliatory approach
> of a Joint Committee then what? This  once again becomes an issue for PAC
> members to explore sustainable alternative paths to forge principled unity.
> Remember what you are proposing was tried and done by Unity Coordinating
> Committee led by Joe Thloloe, Dinners and other party Veterans the same
> unity process is at suspense as we speak because Mbinda-Moloto leadership
> faction rejected the same unity approach you proposing. While PAM
> delegation and Letlapa's NEC leadership faction accepted the unity call.
>
> Lastly let's not raise leadership factions to be demigods to arrest and
> frustrate the unity of PAC with impunity.
>
> Party Membership must close ranks with party Veterans and pursue the
> programme to forge principled unity of the PAC;, PAM and any leadership
> faction which embraces this call of principled party Unity must also close
> ranks and march ahead.
>
> Shango lashu
>
> Nkrumah
>
> On 14 Sep 2016 17:30, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:
>
>> The problem is: How do you dissolve the two contested PAC NEC structures
>> not in a conference / congress, the highest decision-making bodies of the
>> Party, as per the PAC Constitution? How do you convene the properly
>> constituted PAC National Conference / Congress in line with the PAC
>> Constitution? Which clause (s) in the PAC Constitution will be followed to
>> establish the new structure constitutionally and also have the powers to
>> convene the PAC National Conference or Congress in line with the PAC
>> Constitution? According to the PAC Constitution, it is only the PAC NEC has
>> powers to convene the PAC National Conference / Congress, not other
>> structure?(Refer to the PAC Constitution). All PAC activities are only
>> guided by the PAC Basic Documents, nothing more, nothing less. Hence, the
>> need to get the buy-in from the existing NEC structures as constitutionally
>> recognized entities elected in a PAC "Conferences" because they constitute
>> PAC National leadership even by default. I used "Conferences" to emphasize
>> the fact that that is so even if their status is debatable within the PAC.
>> Remember, the decisions of courts of laws are not in line with and outside
>> the PAC Constitution. They cannot be reached in violation of the PAC
>> Constitution and then be binding to PAC members. Mbinda-led NEC may be
>> legally recognised as PAC NEC but may at the same time unconstitutional and
>> illlegimate within the PAC because it was elected in violation of the PAC
>> Constitution. The same may apply to Mphahlele-led NEC. It is only a
>> properly constituted PAC Conference / Conference can make such a decision,
>> not courts or law or some kangaroo courts in some corners. Hence, the need
>> to convene a properly constituted PAC Conference / Congress jointly
>> organised by, at least, the two PAC NECs.
>>
>> Comrade, let's remember: two wrongs do not make a right. We cannot
>> correct the wrongs of others through our own wrong ways. The right way to
>> run PAC affairs is to do everything in line with the PAC Basic Documents,
>> especially the Constitution in this case. Any decisions (resolutions) taken
>> outside the PAC national conferences / congresses are not PAC decisions
>> (resolutions). Party decisions affecting branches are taken at branch
>> meetings or AGMs, those affecting regional  or provincial structures are
>> taken at Regional or provincial conferences / congresses and also those
>> affecting national structures are taken at national conferences /
>> congresses as per the PAC Constitution as we know it. Any decisions taken
>> not in line with the PAC Constitution are not PAC decisions / resolutions.
>>
>> This simply means the bottom-up approach will be in violation of the PAC
>> Constitution and as such will be unconstitutional. That is the reason I
>> said there is no logic in this approach as far as PAC processes and
>> constitution are concerned. Its result will not be different from the
>> Top-down approach. Both 

Re: [PAYCO]

[Chargein Mabaso]

Comrade Nkrumah

Meeting is where issues are discussed and resolved.

The point still stands. There are two PAC NEC structures by default as we
speak. we cannot deny that. They are product of PAC "conference"  whether
the status of those conferences is debatable, or not. That is the reason
parliament through IEC accepted Mphahlele as the PAC President by default.
Parliament later recognized Mphethi and later Mbinda as PAC President based
on court rulings. Whether such decisions were right or wrong is another
issue all together. Courts give structures legality, not legitimate. There
is difference legality and legitimacy. It is only conferences / congresses
that give legitimacy to party structures elected constitutionally (in line
with the PAC Constitution).

The top-down approach is different from the approach I proposed. It works
outside the PAC Constitution, not in line with the PAC Constitution. My
proposal is the three structures should be engaged to get their buy-in to
convene congress jointly. If Mbinda's faction pulls out of the talks but
all other PAC structures (including its component structures eg, APLAMVA,
PAYCO and PASMA) agree to  continue with the talks and convening of the PAC
Special Conference, the conference can continue. Majority rules even in
political parties. PAC belongs to all PAC members, not to Mbinda faction
only. PAC cannot be left to the mercy of one individual or one faction /
group.

On the issue of attending ongoing unity conferences or meetings at
provincial and regional levels, I cannot attend them. There is no PAM
decision mandated me to attend such meetings. As a principled, loyal PAM
member  I can only attend meetings outside of PAM if I am mandated to do so
by PAM to represent it in those conferences / meetings, not myself.
Currently, there are PAM members mandated to attend unity talks on behalf
of PAM, not me. PAM made the decision consciously.

My input in this payco group to unity talks' approaches is personal. It is
not the official PAM position. it is just an advice to comrades to look at
a big picture when dealing with the unity talks. I have the right to do so
especially that I am not in the PAM NEC /PEC/REC/BEC at the moment. I just
know that PAM has no precondition to unity talks or attendance of unity
meetings / conferences at the moment.

Izwe Lethu!





On 14 September 2016 at 18:01, Nkrumah Raymond Kgagudi 
wrote:

> Cde Chargein
>
> Best we meet and discuss these approaches, some parts of your arguments
> hold other have their own defects and self contradictory. And, no court
> ruled in favour of Mbinda-Moloto as legitimate national leadership of PAC,
> the same applies to the parallel Letlapa's NEC. The latest judgement refers
> Mbinda-Moloto NEC as a line of communication for or on IEC related matters,
> elections had passed consequently their elections role has lapsed.
>
> If both parallel NECs are illegitimate as per PAC Constitution then an
> illegitimate structure can't be entrusted pursue legitimate constitutional
> roles.
>
> If Mbinda-Moloto NECs and Letlapa's NEC reject a reconciliatory approach
> of a Joint Committee then what? This  once again becomes an issue for PAC
> members to explore sustainable alternative paths to forge principled unity.
> Remember what you are proposing was tried and done by Unity Coordinating
> Committee led by Joe Thloloe, Dinners and other party Veterans the same
> unity process is at suspense as we speak because Mbinda-Moloto leadership
> faction rejected the same unity approach you proposing. While PAM
> delegation and Letlapa's NEC leadership faction accepted the unity call.
>
> Lastly let's not raise leadership factions to be demigods to arrest and
> frustrate the unity of PAC with impunity.
>
> Party Membership must close ranks with party Veterans and pursue the
> programme to forge principled unity of the PAC;, PAM and any leadership
> faction which embraces this call of principled party Unity must also close
> ranks and march ahead.
>
> Shango lashu
>
> Nkrumah
>
> On 14 Sep 2016 17:30, "Chargein Mabaso"  wrote:
>
>> The problem is: How do you dissolve the two contested PAC NEC structures
>> not in a conference / congress, the highest decision-making bodies of the
>> Party, as per the PAC Constitution? How do you convene the properly
>> constituted PAC National Conference / Congress in line with the PAC
>> Constitution? Which clause (s) in the PAC Constitution will be followed to
>> establish the new structure constitutionally and also have the powers to
>> convene the PAC National Conference or Congress in line with the PAC
>> Constitution? According to the PAC Constitution, it is only the PAC NEC has
>> powers to convene the PAC National Conference / Congress, not other
>> structure?(Refer to the PAC Constitution). All PAC activities are only
>> guided by the PAC Basic Documents, nothing more, nothing less. Hence, the
>> need to get the buy-in from the existing