Re: [PD] still struggling with basic understanding of Gem dataflow

[marius schebella]

hi,
I think your pix_coordinate idea was not that bad (see attached patch).
but that is probably not what you want??
on the other hand, using pdp_rotate and converting twice is really 
eating up a lot of cpu. pdp is a different world again and the bridge 
between pdp and gem is buggy (your patch crashed my computer for example).
but again, as chris said. there is a difference between rotating the 
content of the pix data and rotating the geometry that this data is 
mapped to.
so the second patch shows, what I think you really want. rotate an image 
and then feed this into your pix_rtx.

marius.

John Harrison wrote:
This is extremely helpful. I'm starting to "get" it. Comments/questions 
inline.


chris clepper wrote:

There are two types of objects in GEM: pix and OpenGL.
Pix objects do work in the top to bottom manner like Pd DSP objects.
would [pix_coordinate] be an exception to this? I've been playing with 
it and it seems to behave the way you have described OpenGL objects and 
not GEM objects. I read the help patch about [pix_texture] reassigning 
the coordinate values, but that still didn't explain all the behavior I 
was seeing.
The convention in GEM is to put the GL objects after the pix_ ones 
showing that once the pix_ processes are done on the CPU it is time 
for the GL processes on the GPU to start. 
I understand you to be saying that the GL processes will always be 
applied after the pix_ processes. If that is the case, then it sounds 
like there is no way to have [rotateXYZ] applied before [pix_rtx]. Makes 
sense.


For the more general case, is it correct that there is no way in GEM to 
give an arbitrary rotation of an image as input to a pix_ object since 
there is no Gem pix_ object with arbitrary rotation function?


Figuring that might be the case, I tried to build [pix_rotate] using 
[pix_coordinate]...and this led me to the question about about 
[pix_coordinate]


Using pdp_rotate, pix_2gem and gem2pdp, I did successfully build a pix_ 
rotator. On the chance it might be helpful to see, I attached a demo 
patch which feeds a rotated video stream to [pix_rtx] then rotates the 
stream back to the way it was. While it more-or-less works it seems a 
bit scabby. Is there a better way?



There are lots of exceptions to Pd rules in GEM and there is really no 
way around them.  It is kind of like learning English - I before E 
except after C, excepting all of those words that ignore the rule.
As long as I can make sense of what the rules are, which objects break 
them, and some rough idea as to why, I'm cool with that.


Thank you again for your help. As Hans suggests, I'd like to find a way 
to help organize, then share this information, whether it be on the wiki 
or in some other meaningful way.


-John





rtx_sch.pd
Description: application/extension-pd


rtx_sch2.pd
Description: application/extension-pd
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Re: [PD] Darwiin Remote OSC and PD, on Mac

[marius schebella]

you can connect to localhost on port  for example. try [dumpOSC 
] inside pd and connect a [print] to it to see if you receive your 
values.

marius.

Nicanor Garcia wrote:

Hello.

I need some help trying to connect Darwiinremote 
(http://code.google.com/p/darwiinosc/downloads/list) Mac program to PD 
in a friend's computer.


I'm tryining to connect it through OSC, but I can't get the PD to 
receive anything.


I set up the same port in both programs, but I think I'm missing the 
address.


In Linux, which I use in my computer, I had to use "localhost" as the 
address but I don't know what to use in Mac.


I already googled and found nothing quickly and I'm really in a hurry as 
I have to set up that for a very important project.


Thank you very much and sorry about my english as is not my first language.

Nicanor.




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[PD] Darwiin Remote OSC and PD, on Mac

[Nicanor Garcia]

Hello.

I need some help trying to connect Darwiinremote (
http://code.google.com/p/darwiinosc/downloads/list) Mac program to PD in a
friend's computer.

I'm tryining to connect it through OSC, but I can't get the PD to receive
anything.

I set up the same port in both programs, but I think I'm missing the
address.

In Linux, which I use in my computer, I had to use "localhost" as the
address but I don't know what to use in Mac.

I already googled and found nothing quickly and I'm really in a hurry as I
have to set up that for a very important project.

Thank you very much and sorry about my english as is not my first language.

Nicanor.
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Re: [PD] still struggling with basic understanding of Gem dataflow

[John Harrison]

This is extremely helpful. I'm starting to "get" it. Comments/questions 
inline.


chris clepper wrote:
There are two types of objects in GEM: pix and OpenGL. 


Pix objects do work in the top to bottom manner like Pd DSP objects.
would [pix_coordinate] be an exception to this? I've been playing with 
it and it seems to behave the way you have described OpenGL objects and 
not GEM objects. I read the help patch about [pix_texture] reassigning 
the coordinate values, but that still didn't explain all the behavior I 
was seeing.
The convention in GEM is to put the GL objects after the pix_ ones 
showing that once the pix_ processes are done on the CPU it is time 
for the GL processes on the GPU to start. 
I understand you to be saying that the GL processes will always be 
applied after the pix_ processes. If that is the case, then it sounds 
like there is no way to have [rotateXYZ] applied before [pix_rtx]. Makes 
sense.


For the more general case, is it correct that there is no way in GEM to 
give an arbitrary rotation of an image as input to a pix_ object since 
there is no Gem pix_ object with arbitrary rotation function?


Figuring that might be the case, I tried to build [pix_rotate] using 
[pix_coordinate]...and this led me to the question about about 
[pix_coordinate]


Using pdp_rotate, pix_2gem and gem2pdp, I did successfully build a pix_ 
rotator. On the chance it might be helpful to see, I attached a demo 
patch which feeds a rotated video stream to [pix_rtx] then rotates the 
stream back to the way it was. While it more-or-less works it seems a 
bit scabby. Is there a better way?



There are lots of exceptions to Pd rules in GEM and there is really no 
way around them.  It is kind of like learning English - I before E 
except after C, excepting all of those words that ignore the rule.
As long as I can make sense of what the rules are, which objects break 
them, and some rough idea as to why, I'm cool with that.


Thank you again for your help. As Hans suggests, I'd like to find a way 
to help organize, then share this information, whether it be on the wiki 
or in some other meaningful way.


-John
#N canvas 65 149 758 508 10;
#X obj 95 44 gemhead;
#X obj 95 67 pix_video;
#X obj 235 386 pix_texture;
#X obj 234 405 rectangle 4 3;
#X obj 48 12 gemwin;
#X msg 25 -31 create \, 1;
#X msg 103 -30 destroy;
#X obj 24 -54 loadbang;
#X obj 229 245 pix_rtx;
#X obj 166 150 pdp_rotate;
#X obj 184 120 pix_2pdp;
#X floatatom 244 96 5 0 0 0 - - -;
#X obj 167 172 pdp2gem;
#X obj 116 153 gemhead;
#X obj 176 96 t a b;
#X msg 151 24 colorspace YUV;
#X obj 149 3 loadbang;
#X obj 235 331 pdp_rotate;
#X obj 253 301 pix_2pdp;
#X obj 236 353 pdp2gem;
#X obj 185 334 gemhead;
#X obj 245 277 t a b;
#X obj 304 202 * -1;
#X msg 231 217 set;
#X obj 246 122 t f b;
#X text 284 96 <- change angle of "wave" of rtx;
#X connect 0 0 1 0;
#X connect 1 0 14 0;
#X connect 2 0 3 0;
#X connect 5 0 4 0;
#X connect 6 0 4 0;
#X connect 7 0 5 0;
#X connect 8 0 21 0;
#X connect 9 0 12 0;
#X connect 10 1 9 0;
#X connect 11 0 24 0;
#X connect 12 0 8 0;
#X connect 13 0 12 0;
#X connect 14 0 10 0;
#X connect 14 1 10 0;
#X connect 15 0 1 0;
#X connect 16 0 15 0;
#X connect 17 0 19 0;
#X connect 18 1 17 0;
#X connect 19 0 2 0;
#X connect 20 0 19 0;
#X connect 21 0 18 0;
#X connect 21 1 18 0;
#X connect 22 0 17 1;
#X connect 23 0 8 0;
#X connect 24 0 9 1;
#X connect 24 0 22 0;
#X connect 24 1 23 0;
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Re: [PD] style guide idea: [send foo] versus [; foo(

[Jonathan Wilkes]

--- On Thu, 3/26/09, Mathieu Bouchard  wrote:

> From: Mathieu Bouchard 
> Subject: Re: [PD] style guide idea: [send foo] versus [; foo(
> To: "Jonathan Wilkes" 
> Cc: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" , "Matt Barber" 
> , pd-list@iem.at
> Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 3:07 AM
> On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
> 
> > --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Mathieu Bouchard
>  wrote:
> >> Well, ideally, perhaps... but I think that
> it's
> >> somewhat hard to do. Perhaps more so when teaching
> in French
> >> (or any other language apart from English),
> because then you
> >> have to deal both with the synonyms in French and
> the
> >> synonyms in English at the same time.
> > At least in English, which is all I've taught in,
> it's merely a practical matter of using one consistent
> term instead of using many interchangeably.
> 
> I know, but when using various materials that are using
> various different conventions, or when answering questions
> that have been asked using different words, it's hard to
> keep using the same word over and over. I see myself
> correcting students on the uses of words like objects vs
> classes, but that's not for the same reason at all, as
> this is for resolving the nameclash between
> "object" the synonym of "class" and
> "object" the other meanings of it. Since the
> synonyms for connections are not clashing with much of
> anything else in a significant way (perhaps "line"
> is...) it's not the same reason for correcting speech
> and I'm not quite used to that.
> 
> OTOH, the upside to using words interchangeably is that
> people get used to the synonyms that they will have to use
> in real situations... even if I only accidentally use them.

I'm responding mostly to your use of the term "crash course."  In that context 
I think it's preferable to restrict terminology so that things like execution 
order, cold vs. hot inlet, etc. may take precedence.  Getting used to synonyms 
is a trivial and common task that can be gleaned from looking at a list of 
synonyms, whereas the other concepts are specific to learning Pd and difficult 
to grasp.

In fact, if there were a list of synonyms for common features/concepts in Pd, I 
think it would be as trivial as putting a link on a handout for the student.  
Then if people need to search the mailinglist later, they can just go to the 
list and simply try each possibility until they find what they're looking for.

Is there something like this already?  If not, I can start making one.

-Jonathan


> 
> If I made a tutorial or a set of tutorials, I'd
> probably end up calling it by just one name, but if I'm
> using other people's tutorials together with mine,
> I'm probably not going to search and replace.
> 
> Perhaps it's just that pd-list, pd-dev and #dataflow
> are extreme cases of people coming together with different
> words, and that I don't recall enough the last real
> course I taught... it's been a while.
> 
>  _ _ __ ___ _  _
> _ ...
> | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal,
> Québec


  

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Re: [PD] style guide idea: [send foo] versus [; foo(

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:


--- On Wed, 3/25/09, Mathieu Bouchard  wrote:

Well, ideally, perhaps... but I think that it's
somewhat hard to do. Perhaps more so when teaching in French
(or any other language apart from English), because then you
have to deal both with the synonyms in French and the
synonyms in English at the same time.
At least in English, which is all I've taught in, it's merely a 
practical matter of using one consistent term instead of using many 
interchangeably.


I know, but when using various materials that are using various different 
conventions, or when answering questions that have been asked using 
different words, it's hard to keep using the same word over and over. I 
see myself correcting students on the uses of words like objects vs 
classes, but that's not for the same reason at all, as this is for 
resolving the nameclash between "object" the synonym of "class" and 
"object" the other meanings of it. Since the synonyms for connections are 
not clashing with much of anything else in a significant way (perhaps 
"line" is...) it's not the same reason for correcting speech and I'm not 
quite used to that.


OTOH, the upside to using words interchangeably is that people get used to 
the synonyms that they will have to use in real situations... even if I 
only accidentally use them.


If I made a tutorial or a set of tutorials, I'd probably end up calling it 
by just one name, but if I'm using other people's tutorials together with 
mine, I'm probably not going to search and replace.


Perhaps it's just that pd-list, pd-dev and #dataflow are extreme cases of 
people coming together with different words, and that I don't recall 
enough the last real course I taught... it's been a while.


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Re: [PD] style guide idea: [send foo] versus [; foo(

[Jonathan Wilkes]

--- On Wed, 3/25/09, Mathieu Bouchard  wrote:

> From: Mathieu Bouchard 
> Subject: Re: [PD] style guide idea: [send foo] versus [; foo(
> To: "Jonathan Wilkes" 
> Cc: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" , "Matt Barber" 
> , pd-list@iem.at
> Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 9:15 PM
> On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
> 
> > I understand the point of making that information
> available, but once you start describing a particular pd
> concept, don't you stick to one term for the sake of
> clarity?
> 
> Well, ideally, perhaps... but I think that it's
> somewhat hard to do. Perhaps more so when teaching in French
> (or any other language apart from English), because then you
> have to deal both with the synonyms in French and the
> synonyms in English at the same time.

At least in English, which is all I've taught in, it's merely a practical 
matter of using one consistent term instead of using many interchangeably.

-Jonathan

> 
>  _ _ __ ___ _  _
> _ ...
> | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal,
> Québec


  

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Re: [PD] stop animation/motion in pd/gem

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

On Mar 25, 2009, at 4:27 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:


On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, mark edward grimm wrote:

that looks pretty elegant and will give it a shot on linux  
machine... BTW was wondering though if there are any plans to  
implement gridflow in extended? it would benefit our freshmen  
students for ease of installation/use on osx machines they now all  
run and i would love to demo this "nerv_vid" example...


That was planned and then postponed and in the end I don't know when  
it can happen. About debugging anything on OSX, I don't personally  
run anything else than Linux myself... it would be best if someone  
else could handle the OSX port of it. In the end, it would also be  
better if someone else could handle the inclusion in pd-extended,  
but it's more likely that I work on that one soon, than on OSX  
fixes. I could include any OSX fixes given to me on the gridflow-dev  
mailing-list or give commit access to people who want to make many  
contributions.


If you need an Mac OS X box to work on, send me an ssh key and I'll  
give you access to the build farm machine.


A great and easier first start would be to release gridflow as a  
binary libdir for GNU/Linux and Mac OS X.


.hc




I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have three  
meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds,  
and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits.  - Martin  
Luther King, Jr.




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Re: [PD] style guide idea: [send foo] versus [; foo(

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Frank Barknecht wrote:


Mathieu Bouchard hat gesagt: // Mathieu Bouchard wrote:

Btw, it's in pd/doc/2.control.examples/10.more.messages.pd , and I'd have
trouble considering anything in that folder as being non-basic.

I must say, when thinking about the time when I learned Pd that there is a lot
to swallow at the beginning. I never could attend a workshop, so I learned by
doing Pd, reading stuff and from help on this list. Now it's easier as there
are many workshops all over, but I guess the "old timers" like me or Hans all
learned Pd without a teacher.


Well, I all learned without a teacher either... but then I had a strange 
path. In my first encounter with Pd, I started trying to port a large 
external library. Then a year later, I started trying Pd itself a bit. 
Then the following year I started reading the source code. And then I 
realised that I should really force myself to read the manual a bit. It 
makes it harder to relate to students for sure.


Well, I don't think it's an all-or-nothing proposition. Section 2 is not 
there as something that must be finished learning before going somewhere 
else. Everybody will yawn at one part or another of that section, and 
eventually they figure out that they have to refresh themselves a bit.


It's much easier to remember things that you can imagine having a use for, 
and so if you can't, then you need to develop that imagination so that you 
can help yourself remember more. (this is yet another example of why I 
needed to escape the math dept)



And 2.control.examples is not as much fun as 3.audio.examples,


This is something that I hardly notice, as a programming languages theory 
enthusiast... even though pd is full of holes, it's so much different from 
everything else, that there's much that can be said about it and thought 
about it. And then my personal interest in music composition faded not 
long before I started to use Pd, and I've never quite been able to 
reconnect the two... so, that tends to tip the balance in direction of 
section 2... but I know what you mean. When I started a degree in computer 
programming, I couldn't understand why so few people thought it could be a 
good idea to learn programming by generating graphics.



But what I did was simple: I read all the docs over and over. Again and again,
and repeated that once every year at least.


I should have read this part of your mail before replying above. I'm kinda 
repeating you.


Just like Hans it took me a while to understand the concept behind 
semicolon senders and how they are equivalent to [s something] and how 
";pd dsp" is the same as [s pd] ... But once I got that, it opened up 
all kinds of neat patching tricks and made certain things much easier to 
do and to understand that I was struggling with before.


It's not just that, it's also how that semicolon relates to the semicolons 
in [netsend], [qlist], the .pd file format, and dynamic patching. It all 
fits together.


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Re: [PD] agenda for upcoming book sprint?

[marius schebella]

Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:


Hey all,

I hope I am not jumping the gun or stepping on anyone's toes.  I just 
wanted to open up the discussion about what people are planning on 
working on during the upcoming book sprint.  Currently, I am pretty open 
to topics, but I was thinking that Gem/PDP/Gridflow could really use a 
section.  There are lots of examples for them, but they lack a good 
intro to the concepts.


I am in for a gem sprint.
marius.



.hc

 



News is what people want to keep hidden and everything else is 
publicity.  - Bill Moyers




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Re: [PD] style guide idea: [send foo] versus [; foo(

[Frank Barknecht]

Hallo,
Mathieu Bouchard hat gesagt: // Mathieu Bouchard wrote:

> Btw, it's in pd/doc/2.control.examples/10.more.messages.pd , and I'd have 
> trouble considering anything in that folder as being non-basic.

I must say, when thinking about the time when I learned Pd that there is a lot
to swallow at the beginning. I never could attend a workshop, so I learned by
doing Pd, reading stuff and from help on this list. Now it's easier as there
are many workshops all over, but I guess the "old timers" like me or Hans all
learned Pd without a teacher. And 2.control.examples is not as much fun as
3.audio.examples, so the value of that directory wasn't clear to me immediatly.

But what I did was simple: I read all the docs over and over. Again and again,
and repeated that once every year at least. And with docs I explicitely include
the html-docs, which is something many people seem to skip or only skim through
once.

Just like Hans it took me a while to understand the concept behind semicolon
senders and how they are equivalent to [s something] and how ";pd dsp" is the
same as [s pd] ... But once I got that, it opened up all kinds of neat patching
tricks and made certain things much easier to do and to understand that I was
struggling with before.

Ciao
-- 
Frank

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Re: [PD] words for style guide: rewind and reset

[marius schebella]

Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:


Hey,

I just went thru a bunch of interfaces and noticed a good pattern in 
wording.  I propose to make this part of the style guide:


rewind - go back to the beginning of a chunk of data
(used in: textfile, binfile, msgfile, etc.)

reset - clear the data from a container; or, go back to the initial state
(used in: zexy/index, cyclone/MouseState, maxlib, etc.)


"reset" should not be confused with "clear"...
what about open vs. read vs. load?
marius.

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Re: [PD] words for style guide: rewind and reset

[Luke Iannini]

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner  wrote:
>
> Hey,
>
> I just went thru a bunch of interfaces and noticed a good pattern in
> wording.  I propose to make this part of the style guide:
>
> rewind - go back to the beginning of a chunk of data
> (used in: textfile, binfile, msgfile, etc.)
>
> reset - clear the data from a container; or, go back to the initial state
> (used in: zexy/index, cyclone/MouseState, maxlib, etc.)
thanx, agreed & noted!

>
>
> .hc
>
> 
>
> "[T]he greatest purveyor of violence in the world today [is] my own
> government." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [PD] stop animation/motion in pd/gem

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, mark edward grimm wrote:

that looks pretty elegant and will give it a shot on linux machine... 
BTW was wondering though if there are any plans to implement gridflow in 
extended? it would benefit our freshmen students for ease of 
installation/use on osx machines they now all run and i would love to 
demo this "nerv_vid" example...


That was planned and then postponed and in the end I don't know when it 
can happen. About debugging anything on OSX, I don't personally run 
anything else than Linux myself... it would be best if someone else could 
handle the OSX port of it. In the end, it would also be better if someone 
else could handle the inclusion in pd-extended, but it's more likely that 
I work on that one soon, than on OSX fixes. I could include any OSX fixes 
given to me on the gridflow-dev mailing-list or give commit access to 
people who want to make many contributions.


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Re: [PD] style guide idea: [send foo] versus [; foo(

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:

I understand the point of making that information available, but once 
you start describing a particular pd concept, don't you stick to one 
term for the sake of clarity?


Well, ideally, perhaps... but I think that it's somewhat hard to do. 
Perhaps more so when teaching in French (or any other language apart from 
English), because then you have to deal both with the synonyms in French 
and the synonyms in English at the same time.


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Re: [PD] still struggling with basic understanding of Gem dataflow

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

It would be great to have some of this documented better.  I mentioned  
in the book sprint email that there are lots of Gem examples, but  
there isn't really any text that I could find that introduces these  
concepts of Gem.


So if you do figure this stuff out, please join us for the book  
sprint, or point us to your findings so someone can write it up!


.hc

On Mar 25, 2009, at 1:17 PM, Ben Baker-Smith wrote:


Hi John,

You are correct.  Gem does not follow the normal top to bottom rules  
of PD.  I believe its render chain has more to do with the rules of  
OpenGL than with PD.


Sorry I can't give you an easy way of figuring which objects will be  
processed first.  If there is one then I've never heard/read it.   
Keep experimenting.


For more information on this, I recommend looking up the "a flawed  
Gem" thread in the PD-List archives (and whatever thread that came  
out of).
It'll give you some more information about Gem's relation to OpenGL  
and some users frustration with similar situations as yours.


I love using Gem, it's the environment I primarily work in when  
using PD.  However, it's a bit of a wild beast (at least to a non- 
programmer like myself).


Best of luck,
-Ben



>[Gemhead]
>|
>[object 1]
>|
>[object 2]
>|
>[object 3]
>
>we cannot conclude that the output of [object 1] feeds the input of  
[object
>2] and the output of [object 2] feeds the input of [object 3]. We  
only know
>that the data will be processed by objects 1, 2 and 3 but not in  
what order

>they will be processed.
>
>Further perhaps we cannot conclude that the output of an object is  
actually
>the result of the object having processed the data. Demonstrating  
this: in
>my patch example, [pix_buffer_write] outputs different data than it  
stores,

>or examples 1 and 3 would be the same.
>
>And this leads me to a more general statement of my original  
question: how

>can I determine the order in which objects are processed in Gem?
>
>And my specific example which started this thread: how would one  
apply a

>rotation to an image, then apply [pix_rtx] to the rotated image?
>
>-John
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Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally  
for machines to execute.

 - from Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs


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Re: [PD] style guide idea: [send foo] versus [; foo(

[Jonathan Wilkes]

--- On Wed, 3/25/09, Mathieu Bouchard  wrote:

> From: Mathieu Bouchard 
> Subject: Re: [PD] style guide idea: [send foo] versus [; foo(
> To: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" 
> Cc: "Matt Barber" , pd-list@iem.at
> Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 5:48 PM
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
> 
> > And one last little story that I just remembered:  I
> didn't realize that [send pd] was even a possibility
> until recently.  I had always seen [; pd dsp 1( and figured
> messages to pd had to be sent that way.
> 
> So is this a sign that this part of Pd is difficult, or a
> sign that you didn't learn it at the beginning? What if
> I teach that thing at the very beginning of a course? The
> beginners may get themselves to think that it's a very
> basic concept of pd, and won't understand your
> recommendation to get it removed.
> 
> Btw, it's in
> pd/doc/2.control.examples/10.more.messages.pd , and I'd
> have trouble considering anything in that folder as being
> non-basic.
> 
> The problem with removing unneeded words and concepts from
> a course is that it doesn't prepare the students for the
> world, it prepares the students for an exam (or for anything
> else that happens within the class). Which means that once
> they try to handle patches made outside of this little
> world, it reveals those holes in their knowledge.
> 
> Once that I giving some kind of crash course on pd, I said
> that outlets are linked to inlets using lines, connections,
> wires, cords or patchcords. Later I was told by a teacher
> that it's wrong to do so and that I should only be
> stating one word and use it consistently. Well, I disagree a
> lot. I don't want to cultivate students in a bubble. If
> they try to search mailing-list archives for something
> related to patchcords, they really do have to search for
> those five words in order to find everything, and then if
> they talk to anyone outside of the course they have to be
> able to communicate. It's the same deal for semicolons
> imho.

I understand the point of making that information available, but once you start 
describing a particular pd concept, don't you stick to one term for the sake of 
clarity?

> 
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[PD] words for style guide: rewind and reset

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

Hey,

I just went thru a bunch of interfaces and noticed a good pattern in  
wording.  I propose to make this part of the style guide:


rewind - go back to the beginning of a chunk of data
(used in: textfile, binfile, msgfile, etc.)

reset - clear the data from a container; or, go back to the initial  
state

(used in: zexy/index, cyclone/MouseState, maxlib, etc.)


.hc



"[T]he greatest purveyor of violence in the world today [is] my own  
government." - Martin Luther King, Jr.





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Re: [PD] What font does PD use?

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

The classic is Courier bold.  Pd-extended since 0.39.3 uses a normal  
weight font that is either Bitstream Vera Sans Mono on Windows and GNU/ 
Linux, and Monaco on Mac OS X.


.hc

On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:48 AM, Ben Baker-Smith wrote:

I'm working on some graphics for PdCon09 to potentially use for  
promotional materials.


Could someone tell me what font PD uses?  Or at least a close  
approximation?


If it's not a regular font, does someone have a copy of the font file?

Thanks,
-Ben
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If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.



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Re: [PD] OSCX or mrpeach/osc ?

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

I'd use the mrpeach objects.  oscx is much more limited and  
unmaintained, unless you want to maintain it :)


.hc

On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:15 AM, Alvaro wrote:


Hi,

I'm working on a new patch that uses OSC. I've been using OSCX so  
far, but then I came accross a page on pdpedia
that claims OSCX is no longer maintained, and that I should use  
mrpeach's objects instead. SVN history seems to confirm this, but  
then OSCX worksforme, is well documented, and there are plenty of  
examples.
So, I don't want to step on anybody's toes, but what is the right  
choice for a new project? The alternative, to build an abstraction  
layer, would mean a lot of extra work. mrpeach are you there?


alvarito

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Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, error developer wrote:


i think it's not appropriate to compare pd to programmng languges


I believe that even if we try to refrain to compare pd to programming 
languages, and refrain from calling it a programming language, it still 
will be compared to programming languages simply because it's used in the 
same way that programming languages are and is in direct competition with 
programming languages when deciding which tools to pick to do a certain 
job. Teaching Pd leads to the same kind of challenges as does any other 
programming language if you teach Pd for what it's good for.


we do call it a languge, but it's rather more corect to call it like and 
visual engeneering environment whch hase a set of object or something 
like that,


There's nothing more correct in that, except perhaps politically correct, 
if that's what correctness is. That correctness is all about avoiding 
comparisons and doesn't lead to anything useful.


if you could at least compile them into some sort of binaries 
- that would be a bit more comparable


No, there are *plenty* of languages for which there is either no 
compilation involved, or the compilation process is completely hidden from 
the user, such that you never have to deal with compilation directly. 
(Pd's DSP has an almost-hidden compilation step, for example.)



..and pd is not a virtual machine either


This concept of compiling a programme to a certain kind of format in which 
the instructions are written down in a way similar to traditional machine 
languages... this is only incidental to what a programming language is, it 
doesn't make a programming language more real or anything. It's just a 
strategy for achieving the goal of running the programme... or more 
exactly, to run it more quickly than by using more obvious ways of 
executing a programme (that is, an interpreter).


that leads to flae wars like between tclers and lispers ..but to me both 
are actually quite simpatic ;)) and i can see my self coding in both one 
day ..


If you know Tcl and Lisp and Perl and Ruby and Python and such, you know 
that the compilation aspect and the virtual machine stuff is very 
secondary. It's not shoved in your face like it is with C++ and Java. Yet 
those are true programming languages because of the degree of flexibility 
that they offer in solving problems. Then Pd is not much different from 
them... well, it is, and surely it's less flexible than those languages, 
but it's far above the threshold at which you start to have much more 
flexibility than using things that are not considered programming 
languages at all.


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Re: [PD] still struggling with basic understanding of Gem dataflow

[chris clepper]

There are two types of objects in GEM: pix and OpenGL.

Pix objects do work in the top to bottom manner like Pd DSP objects.  One
thing to keep in mind is that the pix_ objects use 'in place' processing
which means that the pixel data is overwritten by each object.  For most
types of processing this works fine, but it you want to apply two different
processes to the same pixels then you need pix_separator.  pix_separator
copies the pixels to a new buffer for further processing.

The OpenGL objects mostly map to some GL operation (rotate or translate) or
create a piece of geometry (cube).  The GL pipeline has its own rules, but
in general it works like back to front rendering.  Each pixel drawn is put
on top of what is already there.  For example, the default state of GEM
fills the entire view with black pixels. After that any geometry renders on
top of those black pixels (alpha blending will give a mixture of the
existing and new pixel).

Objects like rotate and translate manipulate various GL matrices and those
matrices are used by the graphics card to render the geometry in the correct
orientation.  Matrices are reset for each frame and the processes are
additive (translate) or multiplicative (scale) to the existing values.

Texturing bridges the pix_ and GL objects together allowing for the image
pixels to be applied to the geometry.  The convention in GEM is to put the
GL objects after the pix_ ones showing that once the pix_ processes are done
on the CPU it is time for the GL processes on the GPU to start.

You can place GL objects before the pix_ ones and still have it work.  For
example, the rotateXYZ can be right after the gemhead and before pix_
objects as it just sets a matrix transform up for all of the GL rendering
after it and the pix_ objects have nothing to do with it.

There are lots of exceptions to Pd rules in GEM and there is really no way
around them.  It is kind of like learning English - I before E except after
C, excepting all of those words that ignore the rule.



On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:08 PM, John Harrison
wrote:

>
> Perhaps I need some rules about how Gem is different than Pd in terms of
> dataflow. So far it seems to me that a rendering chain in Gem shows
> conections but does not reveal the order in which these connections are
> processed i.e. if 3 objects are all connected to each other in a rendering
> chain in Gem i.e.
>
>
>
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[PD] agenda for upcoming book sprint?

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

Hey all,

I hope I am not jumping the gun or stepping on anyone's toes.  I just  
wanted to open up the discussion about what people are planning on  
working on during the upcoming book sprint.  Currently, I am pretty  
open to topics, but I was thinking that Gem/PDP/Gridflow could really  
use a section.  There are lots of examples for them, but they lack a  
good intro to the concepts.


.hc



News is what people want to keep hidden and everything else is  
publicity.  - Bill Moyers




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Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done

[error developer]

hm ..
i think it's not appropriate to compare pd to programmng languges
we do call it a languge, but it's rather more corect to call it like
and visual engeneering environment whch hase a set of object or
something like that,
if you could at least compile them into some sort of binaries - that
would be a bit more comparable ..and pd is not a virtual machine
either ..
may be it is in some way, but all these VM thing is inapropriate
anyway, that way you are putting it in the row with Java and dot.net
..and that is not were ost of us wanna be ..
you can put pd (max and perhaps reactor) into the row with LABVIEW and
Simulink(mayb), and those are rather engenering environmnts then
languages as such, i think the langueges should be  rather limited to
those you code with in a tet editor..

anyhow these disscussions are inappropriate cause they don't make any
difference - i just wanted to give my poiint, as Mathieu said about
[demux] ..
that leads to flae wars like between tclers and lispers ..but to me
both are actually quite simpatic ;))
and i can see my self coding in both one day ..

and once again - i don't see them programmers using software like pd
or max or labview - those are more for engeneers
yeah some people are proper engeneers and progammers at the same time,
but they are not the majority.. if we all where great at both things
everything be working much better and much moreusable perhaps .. ;)
On 25/03/2009, Mathieu Bouchard  wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Mar 2009, Chris McCormick wrote:
>
>
> > IIRC, one of their complaints from last year was that our application had
> too many parts. Next time we should pick just one or two specific tasks and
> go with them. Maybe with a community vote or whatever. Also, I hate to be
> cynical, but I can't see any way even remotely in which Google could use Pd
> to make a profit. ;) Thanks for your huge effort anyway, Hans and Georg.
> >
>
>  It's not just that, it's that Pd is still relatively non-mainstream. I can
> imagine plenty (or even most) of programmers being allergic to Pd and
> thinking it's messy, difficult to program with, and generally an exercise in
> contorsion. I mean, what do you do with a language that has no builtin
> [demux] (that's called an if-else anywhere else), in which hot-vs-cold is
> troublesome (else [expr] wouldn't be *so* attractive), etc.; if programmers
> that don't use pd had a better opinion of pd, some things like this could
> have more of a chance. That's when supposing Google is trying to stay
> neutral and not selecting for profit. Else it's an ever harder game, I
> suppose.
>
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Re: [PD] still struggling with basic understanding of Gem dataflow

[Ben Baker-Smith]

Hi John,

You are correct.  Gem does not follow the normal top to bottom rules of PD.
I believe its render chain has more to do with the rules of OpenGL than with
PD.

Sorry I can't give you an easy way of figuring which objects will be
processed first.  If there is one then I've never heard/read it.  Keep
experimenting.

For more information on this, I recommend looking up the "a flawed Gem"
thread in the PD-List archives (and whatever thread that came out of).
It'll give you some more information about Gem's relation to OpenGL and some
users frustration with similar situations as yours.

I love using Gem, it's the environment I primarily work in when using PD.
However, it's a bit of a wild beast (at least to a non-programmer like
myself).

Best of luck,
-Ben



>[Gemhead]
>|
>[object 1]
>|
>[object 2]
>|
>[object 3]
>
>we cannot conclude that the output of [object 1] feeds the input of [object
>2] and the output of [object 2] feeds the input of [object 3]. We only know
>that the data will be processed by objects 1, 2 and 3 but not in what order
>they will be processed.
>
>Further perhaps we cannot conclude that the output of an object is actually
>the result of the object having processed the data. Demonstrating this: in
>my patch example, [pix_buffer_write] outputs different data than it stores,
>or examples 1 and 3 would be the same.
>
>And this leads me to a more general statement of my original question: how
>can I determine the order in which objects are processed in Gem?
>
>And my specific example which started this thread: how would one apply a
>rotation to an image, then apply [pix_rtx] to the rotated image?
>
>-John
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Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done

[error developer]

i bet if we icluded 'musical data mining' or such thing in there ..we'd win ;)

however may be no one will ever get far with this -
it's seems to be that kindda target that is set by them for groups to
research on and never get far out and be too occupid ..


eh..
whatever, might them hear this, they no already



but i think we should get these done ;)
our new TODO list perfectly set out ;)
prove that we don't actually need that much of  "their support"
and can be self-organzed to reach these targets :]

i'd like to work on a multi-platform
installer mmodular pd-extended installer scrit, which would basically
install pd into /opt/pd with all deps and chosen extenals//abstaction
sets

-- 
ilya .d

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Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, dmotd wrote:

or perhaps a company that relies so heavily on string manipulation 
considered pd useless? ;)


Yeah. It doesn't even have to be deliberate. A search engine company will 
be populated by the kind of computer programmers who are very very 
string-centric. Those guys might not even realise that they are being 
string-centric. At the other end of the spectrum, Pd users might not 
realise how much non-string-centric they are, or even, string-avoidant.


Pd is the most string-averse language I've touched since ColorLOGO:

  http://www.trs-80.com/covers/book-colorlogo(1982)(micropi).jpg

But that was a 8k ROM that also had to implement multithreading from 
scratch and had to do graphics and math on a CPU that not only had no FPU 
but also no division operator either.


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Re: [PD] DIY GSoC: getting those projects done

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Mon, 23 Mar 2009, Chris McCormick wrote:

IIRC, one of their complaints from last year was that our application 
had too many parts. Next time we should pick just one or two specific 
tasks and go with them. Maybe with a community vote or whatever. Also, I 
hate to be cynical, but I can't see any way even remotely in which 
Google could use Pd to make a profit. ;) Thanks for your huge effort 
anyway, Hans and Georg.


It's not just that, it's that Pd is still relatively non-mainstream. I can 
imagine plenty (or even most) of programmers being allergic to Pd and 
thinking it's messy, difficult to program with, and generally an exercise 
in contorsion. I mean, what do you do with a language that has no builtin 
[demux] (that's called an if-else anywhere else), in which hot-vs-cold is 
troublesome (else [expr] wouldn't be *so* attractive), etc.; if 
programmers that don't use pd had a better opinion of pd, some things like 
this could have more of a chance. That's when supposing Google is trying 
to stay neutral and not selecting for profit. Else it's an ever harder 
game, I suppose.


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Re: [PD] style guide idea: [send foo] versus [; foo(

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Sat, 21 Mar 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

And one last little story that I just remembered:  I didn't realize that 
[send pd] was even a possibility until recently.  I had always seen [; pd dsp 
1( and figured messages to pd had to be sent that way.


So is this a sign that this part of Pd is difficult, or a sign that you 
didn't learn it at the beginning? What if I teach that thing at the very 
beginning of a course? The beginners may get themselves to think that it's 
a very basic concept of pd, and won't understand your recommendation to 
get it removed.


Btw, it's in pd/doc/2.control.examples/10.more.messages.pd , and I'd have 
trouble considering anything in that folder as being non-basic.


The problem with removing unneeded words and concepts from a course is 
that it doesn't prepare the students for the world, it prepares the 
students for an exam (or for anything else that happens within the class). 
Which means that once they try to handle patches made outside of this 
little world, it reveals those holes in their knowledge.


Once that I giving some kind of crash course on pd, I said that outlets 
are linked to inlets using lines, connections, wires, cords or patchcords. 
Later I was told by a teacher that it's wrong to do so and that I should 
only be stating one word and use it consistently. Well, I disagree a lot. 
I don't want to cultivate students in a bubble. If they try to search 
mailing-list archives for something related to patchcords, they really do 
have to search for those five words in order to find everything, and then 
if they talk to anyone outside of the course they have to be able to 
communicate. It's the same deal for semicolons imho.


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[PD] [PD-announce] Taller de Algoritmia Abril 2009

[Correa Diego]

A la comunidad de Pure Data,

Están abiertas las inscripciones al Taller de Algoritmia Abril 2009, en
Santiago de Chile.

Resumen de la actividad:

La orientación del taller es la integración de conocimientos prácticos de
programación visual en dos lineas de trabajo: técnicas en arquitectura
genética y uso de la herramienta Pure Data (Pd)*.

El taller está compuesto por cuatro módulos de cuatro alumnos. Dos de estos
módulos se especializarán en introducción y técnicas de algoritmos para la
arquitectura genética y los otros dos en el uso de la herramienta Pure Data
para la aplicación en música y video-performance. Estos módulos abarcan
competencias complementarias.

El método formativo utilizado (esquema CUATRO) consta de sesiones intensivas
de una hora y media en módulos de cuatro alumnos y un expositor guía. El
expositor guía los primeros 45 minutos de cada sesión al estudio
representativo de la técnica para luego practicar el método durante los
siguientes 45 minutos en la construcción de una obra.



   -

   Lugar: dōjō 道場. Valenzuela Castillo 1269-B, Providencia, Santiago de
   Chile.


   -

   Inscripciones: al correo algorit...@labormedia.cl o al teléfono (562)
   8805476.



Sobre el expositor guía: Diego Correa T. ha promovido una profunda
   curiosidad por las plataformas que dan pie a proyectos relacionados con la
   concepción y experimentación tanto en música y arte como en matemáticas.
   Desde los inicios en 2003 del trabajo en modelado de agentes con
   programación convexa, mientras era alumno de economía, su interés por el uso
   de herramientas para el modelado matemático se ha desarrollado. En 2004 en
   el Centro de Música y Tecnología (CMT), actual Laboratorio Arcis de
   Informática Musical (LAIM), en Santiago de Chile, se instruyó para el
   aprendizaje en interpretación musical y multimedial por medio de software
   libre desarrollado en el instituto de investigación y coordinación
   acústico/musical (IRCAM) de Francia. Entre el 2006 y el 2008 desempeñó
   labores de producción e investigación para el Laboratorio de Medios de la
   Universidad Católica de Chile (MDLB UC), fundado por el neurobiólogo y
   artista de medios de la Universidad de Nueva York (NYU), José Miguel Tagle.
   Desde entonces ha estado desarrollando modelos de adaptación de herramientas
   digitales al uso en áreas no solo matemáticas y acústico/musicales, sino
   también en economía, cibernética, inteligencia artificial, neurociencia
   teórica y teoría de la información.



Las inscripciones estarán abiertas hasta el día viernes 3 de abril.


saludos cordiales,



Diego Correa T.
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Re: [PD] Trouble PD 0.42 - Gem 0.91.3 Tigital - mac osX 10.5.6

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

thomas thiery wrote:
> I make a binary from scratch of Gem for Mac osx 10.5.6 and pd 0.42-4 but
> I have the same problem.

did you compile the 0.91.3 sources, or fresh from svn?

please file a bug-report at http://sf.net/projects/pd-gem


mfga.sdr
IOhannes

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[PD] [OT] RME HDSP Multiface (1st gen), PCMCIA cardbus (1st gen), and PCI-to-PCMCIA cardbus (for desktop) for sale

[Ivica Ico Bukvic]

Barely used. If interested, please email me your offer. Originally this
thing cost ~$1,200 (with the PCI-to-PCMCIA cardbus for the desktop
connectivity). Been used on Linux and Windows.

Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
Composition, Music Technology
Director, DISIS Interactive Sound & Intermedia Studio
Assistant Co-Director, CCTAD
CHCI, CS, and Art (by courtesy)
Virginia Tech
Dept. of Music - 0240
Blacksburg, VA 24061
(540) 231-6139
(540) 231-5034 (fax)
i...@vt.edu
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/bukvic/



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Re: [PD] style guide idea: [send foo] versus [; foo(

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Sun, 22 Mar 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:


Or making lines that go up for anything but feedback/loops.


Well, if you first make sure that most lines are as short as possible, 
then there's not much need to worry about lines going up. A single-outlet 
object connected to a single-inlet object that doesn't get connected 
anywhere else, can have a 2-pixel line. After that, wires going up is a 
minor trouble and/or simply a necessity.


I do lots of lines that go up, especially to an object at the same height, 
so, object-wise, it's a kind of horizontal connection, but the rendering 
goes up because outlets are at the bottom of boxes and inlets are at the 
top.


Any I can't think of any reason why you should ever cross over an inlet or 
outlet, i.e. Frank's #4.


Because the font changed after the patch was made. Which is probably an 
issue for all of Pd these days...?


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Re: [PD] style guide idea: [send foo] versus [; foo(

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Sat, 21 Mar 2009, Frank Barknecht wrote:


Yeah, lets not turn a style guide into a style law.
Sometimes crossings are not avoidable indeed.


Well, I don't just mean that. I also mean that sometimes crossings are 
clearer than any replacement for them. Often a simple X of wires is much 
more expressive than a [s]/[r] pair made only for the sake of following an 
unpractically stringent standard about crossings.



I seem to go like that:
1) avoid crossings


Although, when I think my patch is messy, I first try to remove excess 
crossings, I can't possibly put avoiding crossings above everything else 
all of the time.


You have to make exceptions for what I was calling "cross-connect" and 
"side-cross-connect" in PdCon04; that is, respectively, crossing wires 
from two outlets of one object to two inlets of another, and from one 
outlet of each of two objects, to one inlet of the other. It would look 
very silly avoiding that crossing using a [s]/[r] pair. There are other 
variations of the same, using more wires. For example, see 
seq_fold-help.pd in GridFlow for a version with three wires.



3) if you really have to cross over objects, make the patch cords go
  in straight vertical lines (straight vertical cords are the best cords
  anyway)
4) even then avoid crossing over object inlets or outlets, as it is
  ambiguous which cords are connected.


I'd put (4) over (3), really.

But those efforts are foiled by font issues and by the fact that Pd never 
stores the object width in the case of plain objectboxes. So if you change 
the font you can get a different positioning of outlets.


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Re: [PD] Trouble PD 0.42 - Gem 0.91.3 Tigital - mac osX 10.5.6

[thomas thiery]

I make a binary from scratch of Gem for Mac osx 10.5.6 and pd 0.42-4 but I
have the same problem.
So for the moment I use pd 0.41-4 and that's ok



2009/3/25 thomas thiery 

> Oh I find this note
>  Current release: Gem 0.91.3 
>
> Released 22/01/2009 — tested with pd 0.40, pd 0.41
>
> So I test with pd 0.42 and Gem have some but If I have time I will try to
> make a compliation for Mac with pd 0.42 to test in the best condition
>
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
> 2009/3/25 thomas thiery 
>
>> Thank you Marius for your answer, here you can find some documentation
>>
>> I test with pd 0.42-0 this is the same problem
>> I don't want to try to compile Gem from scratch but if anyone do this I
>> can test the binary files on my system.
>>
>> I don't see anything in the documentation about this trouble so...
>>
>> When I loading my patch
>>
>> error: [pix_videoNEW]: do video for this OS
>> ... you might be able to track this down from the Find menu.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> This is the loading message
>>
>> warning: old method 'width' for class 'curve' renamed 'width_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'draw' for class 'curve' renamed 'draw_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'draw' for class 'curve3d' renamed 'draw_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'open' for class 'fragment_program' renamed
>> 'open_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'print' for class 'fragment_program' renamed
>> 'print_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'open' for class 'glsl_fragment' renamed
>> 'open_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'print' for class 'glsl_fragment' renamed
>> 'print_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'gem_state' for class 'pix_filmDarwin' renamed
>> 'gem_state_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'open' for class 'pix_filmDarwin' renamed
>> 'open_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'img_num' for class 'pix_filmDarwin' renamed
>> 'img_num_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'auto' for class 'pix_filmDarwin' renamed
>> 'auto_aliased'
>> warning: class 'pix_film' overwritten\; old one renamed 'pix_film_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'gem_state' for class 'pix_filmQT' renamed
>> 'gem_state_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'open' for class 'pix_filmQT' renamed 'open_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'img_num' for class 'pix_filmQT' renamed
>> 'img_num_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'auto' for class 'pix_filmQT' renamed 'auto_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'gem_state' for class 'pix_videoDarwin' renamed
>> 'gem_state_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'dialog' for class 'pix_videoDarwin' renamed
>> 'dialog_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'colorspace' for class 'pix_videoDarwin' renamed
>> 'colorspace_aliased'
>> warning: class 'pix_video' overwritten\; old one renamed
>> 'pix_video_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'width' for class 'polygon' renamed 'width_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'draw' for class 'polygon' renamed 'draw_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'draw' for class 'primTri' renamed 'draw_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'width' for class 'scopeXYZ' renamed 'width_aliased'
>> warning: old method 'draw' for class 'scopeXYZ' renamed 'draw_aliased'
>> GEM: Graphics Environment for Multimedia
>> GEM: ver: 0.91.3 'tigital'
>> GEM: compiled: Jan 22 2009
>> GEM: maintained by IOhannes m zmoelnig
>> GEM: Authors :Mark Danks (original version)
>> GEM:Chris Clepper
>> GEM:James Tittle
>> GEM:IOhannes m zmoelnig
>> GEM: with help by Guenter Geiger, Daniel Heckenberg, Cyrille Henry, et al.
>> GEM: found a bug? miss a feature? please report it:
>> GEM: homepage http://gem.iem.at/
>> GEM: bug-tracker http://sourceforge.net/projects/pd-gem/
>> GEM: mailing-list http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/gem-dev/
>> GEM: compiled for SIMD architecture: SSE2 MMX
>> GEM: using SSE2 optimization
>>
>> 2009/3/25 marius schebella 
>>
>> Hi,
>>> do you see error messages in the console during start up? like do you
>>> see a printout about Gem loading correctly? do you see any errors when
>>> you load the patch? are the objects created without problems?
>>> an issue could be that Gem has to be compiled for 0.42, but that is
>>> just a guess.
>>> marius.
>>>
>>> 2009/3/25 thomas thiery :
>>> > Hello pd-list,
>>> >
>>> > I use a little patch with an object pix_video (lib Gem) on mac osX
>>> 10.5.6
>>> > 2.8 Ghz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
>>> >
>>> > I test it with Pd 0.42-4 ang Gem 0.91.3 we don't see anything, my
>>> webcam
>>> > doesn't appear
>>> > and
>>> > I test it with pd 0.41-4 ang Gem 0.91.3 it works
>>> >
>>> > Do you have any solutions? Is it a bug or I must do something special
>>> with
>>> > pd 0.42-4?
>>> >
>>> > Anyone can help me with this?
>>> >
>>> > Cheers Thomas
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Matohawk production
>>> > http://matohawkitongroup.free.fr
>>> >
>>> > ___
>>> > Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
>>> > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
>>> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matohawk production
>> http:/

Re: [PD] still struggling with basic understanding of Gem dataflow

[John Harrison]

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:22 AM, marius schebella <
marius.schebe...@gmail.com> wrote:

> hi john,
> I just looked at your patches, here's what I think:
> 1) pix_buffer_write seems to copy and clear the pix buffer. so if your
> pix_video is connected to pix_buffer_write it is gone and you don't
> see it anymore (rectangle stays white). I am not sure if this is a
> bug, it seems strange to me, too. but as soon as you disconnect the
> pix_buffer_write the image will be shown on the rotated rectangle.


Yes I also noticed that disconnecting the [pix_buffer_write] fixes the
problem. i see that sort of thing in Gem all the time ([pix_mix] for
example.) But wouldn't a [pix_separator] fix this then? It doesn't...

>
> 2) the rotateXYZ does not rotate the pixels, but only the geometry
> that this texture is mapped to (the rectangle). so in your left
> example you go from gemhead through buffer_read, texture to the
> rectangle. in that line no rotationXYZ is applied to the rectangle.
> marius.

So why does the right example work? Because the rotation happens after the
[pix_buffer_write] even though [pix_buffer_write] is later in the rendering
chain? Or perhaps the rotation is ignored by [pix_buffer_write]? And at the
same time [pix_buffer_write] sends the output of the rotation as a
"passthrough" on its outlet? And also you are saying it would be normal and
expected for the output of [pix_buffer_write] to be different than what
[pix_buffer_write] is actually storing? If that isn't the case, example 1
and example 3 should produce the same results.

Perhaps I need some rules about how Gem is different than Pd in terms of
dataflow. So far it seems to me that a rendering chain in Gem shows
conections but does not reveal the order in which these connections are
processed i.e. if 3 objects are all connected to each other in a rendering
chain in Gem i.e.

[Gemhead]
|
[object 1]
|
[object 2]
|
[object 3]

we cannot conclude that the output of [object 1] feeds the input of [object
2] and the output of [object 2] feeds the input of [object 3]. We only know
that the data will be processed by objects 1, 2 and 3 but not in what order
they will be processed.

Further perhaps we cannot conclude that the output of an object is actually
the result of the object having processed the data. Demonstrating this: in
my patch example, [pix_buffer_write] outputs different data than it stores,
or examples 1 and 3 would be the same.

And this leads me to a more general statement of my original question: how
can I determine the order in which objects are processed in Gem?

And my specific example which started this thread: how would one apply a
rotation to an image, then apply [pix_rtx] to the rotated image?

-John


>
>
> 2009/3/24 John Harrison :
>  > Attached is a small example patch of how I just don't get
> Gem...still...
> >
> > [pix_rtx] has a steady wave that normally flows from left to right.
> >
> > I would have thought that the attached patch shows me rotating the image
> > first, then applying [pix_rtx]. So it would stand to reason in my mind I
> > would see a rotated image with [pix_rtx] flowing from left to right.
> >
> > But that isn't the result I see. The patch has [pix_rtx] flowing from
> right
> > to left now. It is as if [pix_rtx] is applied *before* the rotation
> instead
> > of *after* as I would have expected.
> >
> > Grasping at straws, I have tried [pix_separator] between just about every
> > object, but that makes no difference.
> >
> > What am I misunderstanding that makes the behavior of the patch make
> sense?
> > And...how would I get [pix_rtx] to flow from left to right on a mirrored
> > image?
> >
> > -John
> >
> > P.S. Are questions like this better on the Gem-dev list? That's a
> developer
> > list but at the same time I feel a bit awkward putting too many Gem
> > questions on a Pd list
> >
> >
>  > #N canvas 962 171 305 227 10;
> > #X obj 29 -58 gemhead;
> > #X obj 29 -35 pix_video;
> > #X obj 29 44 pix_texture;
> > #X obj 28 72 rectangle 4 3;
> > #X obj 159 9 gemwin;
> > #X msg 136 -34 create \, 1;
> > #X msg 214 -33 destroy;
> > #X obj 135 -57 loadbang;
> > #X obj 29 17 pix_rtx;
> > #X obj 29 -10 rotateXYZ 0 180 0;
> > #X connect 0 0 1 0;
> > #X connect 1 0 9 0;
> > #X connect 2 0 3 0;
> > #X connect 5 0 4 0;
> > #X connect 6 0 4 0;
> > #X connect 7 0 5 0;
> > #X connect 8 0 2 0;
> > #X connect 9 0 8 0;
> >
> > ___
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> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
> >
> >
>
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Re: [PD] Trouble PD 0.42 - Gem 0.91.3 Tigital - mac osX 10.5.6

[thomas thiery]

Oh I find this note
 Current release: Gem 0.91.3 

Released 22/01/2009 — tested with pd 0.40, pd 0.41

So I test with pd 0.42 and Gem have some but If I have time I will try to
make a compliation for Mac with pd 0.42 to test in the best condition


Thomas


2009/3/25 thomas thiery 

> Thank you Marius for your answer, here you can find some documentation
>
> I test with pd 0.42-0 this is the same problem
> I don't want to try to compile Gem from scratch but if anyone do this I can
> test the binary files on my system.
>
> I don't see anything in the documentation about this trouble so...
>
> When I loading my patch
>
> error: [pix_videoNEW]: do video for this OS
> ... you might be able to track this down from the Find menu.
>
>
> --
>
> This is the loading message
>
> warning: old method 'width' for class 'curve' renamed 'width_aliased'
> warning: old method 'draw' for class 'curve' renamed 'draw_aliased'
> warning: old method 'draw' for class 'curve3d' renamed 'draw_aliased'
> warning: old method 'open' for class 'fragment_program' renamed
> 'open_aliased'
> warning: old method 'print' for class 'fragment_program' renamed
> 'print_aliased'
> warning: old method 'open' for class 'glsl_fragment' renamed 'open_aliased'
> warning: old method 'print' for class 'glsl_fragment' renamed
> 'print_aliased'
> warning: old method 'gem_state' for class 'pix_filmDarwin' renamed
> 'gem_state_aliased'
> warning: old method 'open' for class 'pix_filmDarwin' renamed
> 'open_aliased'
> warning: old method 'img_num' for class 'pix_filmDarwin' renamed
> 'img_num_aliased'
> warning: old method 'auto' for class 'pix_filmDarwin' renamed
> 'auto_aliased'
> warning: class 'pix_film' overwritten\; old one renamed 'pix_film_aliased'
> warning: old method 'gem_state' for class 'pix_filmQT' renamed
> 'gem_state_aliased'
> warning: old method 'open' for class 'pix_filmQT' renamed 'open_aliased'
> warning: old method 'img_num' for class 'pix_filmQT' renamed
> 'img_num_aliased'
> warning: old method 'auto' for class 'pix_filmQT' renamed 'auto_aliased'
> warning: old method 'gem_state' for class 'pix_videoDarwin' renamed
> 'gem_state_aliased'
> warning: old method 'dialog' for class 'pix_videoDarwin' renamed
> 'dialog_aliased'
> warning: old method 'colorspace' for class 'pix_videoDarwin' renamed
> 'colorspace_aliased'
> warning: class 'pix_video' overwritten\; old one renamed
> 'pix_video_aliased'
> warning: old method 'width' for class 'polygon' renamed 'width_aliased'
> warning: old method 'draw' for class 'polygon' renamed 'draw_aliased'
> warning: old method 'draw' for class 'primTri' renamed 'draw_aliased'
> warning: old method 'width' for class 'scopeXYZ' renamed 'width_aliased'
> warning: old method 'draw' for class 'scopeXYZ' renamed 'draw_aliased'
> GEM: Graphics Environment for Multimedia
> GEM: ver: 0.91.3 'tigital'
> GEM: compiled: Jan 22 2009
> GEM: maintained by IOhannes m zmoelnig
> GEM: Authors :Mark Danks (original version)
> GEM:Chris Clepper
> GEM:James Tittle
> GEM:IOhannes m zmoelnig
> GEM: with help by Guenter Geiger, Daniel Heckenberg, Cyrille Henry, et al.
> GEM: found a bug? miss a feature? please report it:
> GEM: homepage http://gem.iem.at/
> GEM: bug-tracker http://sourceforge.net/projects/pd-gem/
> GEM: mailing-list http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/gem-dev/
> GEM: compiled for SIMD architecture: SSE2 MMX
> GEM: using SSE2 optimization
>
> 2009/3/25 marius schebella 
>
> Hi,
>> do you see error messages in the console during start up? like do you
>> see a printout about Gem loading correctly? do you see any errors when
>> you load the patch? are the objects created without problems?
>> an issue could be that Gem has to be compiled for 0.42, but that is
>> just a guess.
>> marius.
>>
>> 2009/3/25 thomas thiery :
>> > Hello pd-list,
>> >
>> > I use a little patch with an object pix_video (lib Gem) on mac osX
>> 10.5.6
>> > 2.8 Ghz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
>> >
>> > I test it with Pd 0.42-4 ang Gem 0.91.3 we don't see anything, my webcam
>> > doesn't appear
>> > and
>> > I test it with pd 0.41-4 ang Gem 0.91.3 it works
>> >
>> > Do you have any solutions? Is it a bug or I must do something special
>> with
>> > pd 0.42-4?
>> >
>> > Anyone can help me with this?
>> >
>> > Cheers Thomas
>> >
>> > --
>> > Matohawk production
>> > http://matohawkitongroup.free.fr
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
>> > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
>> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matohawk production
> http://matohawkitongroup.free.fr
>



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[PD] What font does PD use?

[Ben Baker-Smith]

I'm working on some graphics for PdCon09 to potentially use for promotional
materials.

Could someone tell me what font PD uses?  Or at least a close approximation?

If it's not a regular font, does someone have a copy of the font file?

Thanks,
-Ben
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Re: [PD] Trouble PD 0.42 - Gem 0.91.3 Tigital - mac osX 10.5.6

[thomas thiery]

Thank you Marius for your answer, here you can find some documentation

I test with pd 0.42-0 this is the same problem
I don't want to try to compile Gem from scratch but if anyone do this I can
test the binary files on my system.

I don't see anything in the documentation about this trouble so...

When I loading my patch

error: [pix_videoNEW]: do video for this OS
... you might be able to track this down from the Find menu.


--

This is the loading message

warning: old method 'width' for class 'curve' renamed 'width_aliased'
warning: old method 'draw' for class 'curve' renamed 'draw_aliased'
warning: old method 'draw' for class 'curve3d' renamed 'draw_aliased'
warning: old method 'open' for class 'fragment_program' renamed
'open_aliased'
warning: old method 'print' for class 'fragment_program' renamed
'print_aliased'
warning: old method 'open' for class 'glsl_fragment' renamed 'open_aliased'
warning: old method 'print' for class 'glsl_fragment' renamed
'print_aliased'
warning: old method 'gem_state' for class 'pix_filmDarwin' renamed
'gem_state_aliased'
warning: old method 'open' for class 'pix_filmDarwin' renamed 'open_aliased'
warning: old method 'img_num' for class 'pix_filmDarwin' renamed
'img_num_aliased'
warning: old method 'auto' for class 'pix_filmDarwin' renamed 'auto_aliased'
warning: class 'pix_film' overwritten\; old one renamed 'pix_film_aliased'
warning: old method 'gem_state' for class 'pix_filmQT' renamed
'gem_state_aliased'
warning: old method 'open' for class 'pix_filmQT' renamed 'open_aliased'
warning: old method 'img_num' for class 'pix_filmQT' renamed
'img_num_aliased'
warning: old method 'auto' for class 'pix_filmQT' renamed 'auto_aliased'
warning: old method 'gem_state' for class 'pix_videoDarwin' renamed
'gem_state_aliased'
warning: old method 'dialog' for class 'pix_videoDarwin' renamed
'dialog_aliased'
warning: old method 'colorspace' for class 'pix_videoDarwin' renamed
'colorspace_aliased'
warning: class 'pix_video' overwritten\; old one renamed 'pix_video_aliased'
warning: old method 'width' for class 'polygon' renamed 'width_aliased'
warning: old method 'draw' for class 'polygon' renamed 'draw_aliased'
warning: old method 'draw' for class 'primTri' renamed 'draw_aliased'
warning: old method 'width' for class 'scopeXYZ' renamed 'width_aliased'
warning: old method 'draw' for class 'scopeXYZ' renamed 'draw_aliased'
GEM: Graphics Environment for Multimedia
GEM: ver: 0.91.3 'tigital'
GEM: compiled: Jan 22 2009
GEM: maintained by IOhannes m zmoelnig
GEM: Authors :Mark Danks (original version)
GEM:Chris Clepper
GEM:James Tittle
GEM:IOhannes m zmoelnig
GEM: with help by Guenter Geiger, Daniel Heckenberg, Cyrille Henry, et al.
GEM: found a bug? miss a feature? please report it:
GEM: homepage http://gem.iem.at/
GEM: bug-tracker http://sourceforge.net/projects/pd-gem/
GEM: mailing-list http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/gem-dev/
GEM: compiled for SIMD architecture: SSE2 MMX
GEM: using SSE2 optimization

2009/3/25 marius schebella 

> Hi,
> do you see error messages in the console during start up? like do you
> see a printout about Gem loading correctly? do you see any errors when
> you load the patch? are the objects created without problems?
> an issue could be that Gem has to be compiled for 0.42, but that is
> just a guess.
> marius.
>
> 2009/3/25 thomas thiery :
> > Hello pd-list,
> >
> > I use a little patch with an object pix_video (lib Gem) on mac osX 10.5.6
> > 2.8 Ghz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
> >
> > I test it with Pd 0.42-4 ang Gem 0.91.3 we don't see anything, my webcam
> > doesn't appear
> > and
> > I test it with pd 0.41-4 ang Gem 0.91.3 it works
> >
> > Do you have any solutions? Is it a bug or I must do something special
> with
> > pd 0.42-4?
> >
> > Anyone can help me with this?
> >
> > Cheers Thomas
> >
> > --
> > Matohawk production
> > http://matohawkitongroup.free.fr
> >
> > ___
> > Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
> > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
> >
> >
>



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Re: [PD] default [output~] in Pd-extended

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Sat, 21 Mar 2009, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:

I took Modern Algebra as my first course in "Higher Math." Big mistake. 
Learning to do proofs this way is a big headache, especially if you have 
a curmudgeonly teacher!


I don't know what kind of prof you had, but Group Theory tends to need 
proofs that start from the very scratch. You can hardly skip any step or 
make any assumptions. Making proofs at this level is very akin to 
programming in low-level languages like machine language and assembly 
language: you need to go in the little details, and all you have are 
little details put together. Fortunately, other courses (and perhaps other 
parts of the same course) are higher-level than that: I don't need to 
re-prove every little thing. But it's often not very clear in what level 
of detail I have to go. As a really bored student, I constantly tested the 
limits of what I can submit in an exam, and I'd say that they were quite 
tolerant of my terse proofs.


For your learning process, perhaps it has more to do with the teacher 
being curmudgeonly than about the actual topic that you use for learning 
how to prove things.


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Re: [PD] default [output~] in Pd-extended

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

I've taught Pd quite a bit at this point, and I have watched many people 
not understand the number boxes as a interactive GUI element.  Its based 
on my experience, that's all.  There is no scientific process behind it. 
It is also based on my experience learning Pd, back in the day.  I 
remember it took me a while before I could get the examples working, and 
I had been working with Csound, Cmix, MusicKit and others before, so I 
was quite familiar with the concepts.


Ok. My next question is then: why isn't numberbox taught before any 
[output~] is introduced, in tutorials and courses that it's intended to go 
in?


And then, if they shouldn't learn the numberbox at the beginning, then 
when should they?... the numberbox is pretty much all over the place, and 
its behaviour (compared to spinboxes and such) is not something that was 
done randomly... well, understanding the creative process, then maybe it's 
been done randomly, but it certainly wasn't kept randomly! ergonomically 
it makes sense: it gives faster control on a number, than a spinbox does. 
I'd even say it didn't go far enough. There is no sensitivity control for 
dragging ("scrolling") into numberboxes. The [nbx] (IEMGUI) class has the 
log-height feature, but of course it only works in log mode. With the 
sensitivity control, the numberbox would be a clearer winner, but not as 
much as if it actually had the spinbox's arrow. That's especially feasible 
in the [nbx] class, which wastes a lot of space that could be recycled as 
buttons.


Now, about scientific processes... it's not all to have a scientific 
process or not... you get to different conclusions (scientific processes 
or not) depending on what you aim for. This is a part that I don't see 
many people talking about. One's aims determine assumptions about the 
research, assumptions that might be implicit or else often worded like 
they are only ones worth using. But usability studies are funded by 
companies who have a mass diffusion model. Those companies live by selling 
new licenses of software. Those licenses of software tend to be more sold 
to beginners than to experimented users, if the userbase is in vast 
expansion compared to the rate of license renewal. As the usability 
studies are ordered by the marketing operations, the assumptions will be 
as beginner-oriented as the marketing department is. This is why user 
interfaces are geared towards what the first impression will be like, at 
the expense of the following years of use, with a tendency to ignore the 
fact that people learn, because that learning only occurs after the 
license is bought. This is IMHO why usability studies and famous UI 
guideline books have to be approached with suspicion, regardless of how 
tight their scientific and statistical standards are.


Free, community-oriented software isn't necessarily different. Rationally, 
it depends on their score-keeping: if they are mainly motivated by getting 
new beginner users, they will just do the same as companies that are 
mainly selling licenses to new beginner users. Non-rationally, a project 
could have any other userbase goals but still act like they're aiming for 
beginners, because they follow UI advice designed for new beginner users 
without questioning whether it really applies.


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Re: [PD] still struggling with basic understanding of Gem dataflow

[marius schebella]

hi john,
I just looked at your patches, here's what I think:
1) pix_buffer_write seems to copy and clear the pix buffer. so if your
pix_video is connected to pix_buffer_write it is gone and you don't
see it anymore (rectangle stays white). I am not sure if this is a
bug, it seems strange to me, too. but as soon as you disconnect the
pix_buffer_write the image will be shown on the rotated rectangle.
2) the rotateXYZ does not rotate the pixels, but only the geometry
that this texture is mapped to (the rectangle). so in your left
example you go from gemhead through buffer_read, texture to the
rectangle. in that line no rotationXYZ is applied to the rectangle.
marius.

2009/3/24 John Harrison :
> Attached is a small example patch of how I just don't get Gem...still...
>
> [pix_rtx] has a steady wave that normally flows from left to right.
>
> I would have thought that the attached patch shows me rotating the image
> first, then applying [pix_rtx]. So it would stand to reason in my mind I
> would see a rotated image with [pix_rtx] flowing from left to right.
>
> But that isn't the result I see. The patch has [pix_rtx] flowing from right
> to left now. It is as if [pix_rtx] is applied *before* the rotation instead
> of *after* as I would have expected.
>
> Grasping at straws, I have tried [pix_separator] between just about every
> object, but that makes no difference.
>
> What am I misunderstanding that makes the behavior of the patch make sense?
> And...how would I get [pix_rtx] to flow from left to right on a mirrored
> image?
>
> -John
>
> P.S. Are questions like this better on the Gem-dev list? That's a developer
> list but at the same time I feel a bit awkward putting too many Gem
> questions on a Pd list
>
>
> #N canvas 962 171 305 227 10;
> #X obj 29 -58 gemhead;
> #X obj 29 -35 pix_video;
> #X obj 29 44 pix_texture;
> #X obj 28 72 rectangle 4 3;
> #X obj 159 9 gemwin;
> #X msg 136 -34 create \, 1;
> #X msg 214 -33 destroy;
> #X obj 135 -57 loadbang;
> #X obj 29 17 pix_rtx;
> #X obj 29 -10 rotateXYZ 0 180 0;
> #X connect 0 0 1 0;
> #X connect 1 0 9 0;
> #X connect 2 0 3 0;
> #X connect 5 0 4 0;
> #X connect 6 0 4 0;
> #X connect 7 0 5 0;
> #X connect 8 0 2 0;
> #X connect 9 0 8 0;
>
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Re: [PD] Trouble PD 0.42 - Gem 0.91.3 Tigital - mac osX 10.5.6

[marius schebella]

Hi,
do you see error messages in the console during start up? like do you
see a printout about Gem loading correctly? do you see any errors when
you load the patch? are the objects created without problems?
an issue could be that Gem has to be compiled for 0.42, but that is
just a guess.
marius.

2009/3/25 thomas thiery :
> Hello pd-list,
>
> I use a little patch with an object pix_video (lib Gem) on mac osX 10.5.6
> 2.8 Ghz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
>
> I test it with Pd 0.42-4 ang Gem 0.91.3 we don't see anything, my webcam
> doesn't appear
> and
> I test it with pd 0.41-4 ang Gem 0.91.3 it works
>
> Do you have any solutions? Is it a bug or I must do something special with
> pd 0.42-4?
>
> Anyone can help me with this?
>
> Cheers Thomas
>
> --
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> http://matohawkitongroup.free.fr
>
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[PD] Trouble PD 0.42 - Gem 0.91.3 Tigital - mac osX 10.5.6

[thomas thiery]

Hello pd-list,

I use a little patch with an object pix_video (lib Gem) on mac osX 10.5.6
2.8 Ghz Quad-Core Intel Xeon

I test it with Pd 0.42-4 ang Gem 0.91.3 we don't see anything, my webcam
doesn't appear
and
I test it with pd 0.41-4 ang Gem 0.91.3 it works

Do you have any solutions? Is it a bug or I must do something special with
pd 0.42-4?

Anyone can help me with this?

Cheers Thomas

-- 
Matohawk production
http://matohawkitongroup.free.fr
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Re: [PD] OSCX or mrpeach/osc ?

[Martin Peach]

Alvaro wrote:

Hi,

I'm working on a new patch that uses OSC. I've been using OSCX so far, but then 
I came accross a page on pdpedia
that claims OSCX is no longer maintained, and that I should use mrpeach's objects instead. SVN history seems to confirm this, but then OSCX worksforme, is well documented, and there are plenty of examples. 
So, I don't want to step on anybody's toes, but what is the right choice for a new project? The alternative, to build an abstraction layer, would mean a lot of extra work. mrpeach are you there?




Well you can use whatever you like. OSCX is probably easier for basic 
stuff. The mrpeach versions also allow you to force the type of each 
argument, route dynamically, use timestamps, broadcast, and send OSC 
over TCP or serial instead of UDP.


Martin


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Re: [PD] still struggling with basic understanding of Gem dataflow

[John Harrison]

I'm pretty determined to work through this! :-)

I thought I'd write a workaround to keep this conversation moving: My 
plan was to write the video to a buffer with [pix_buffer], then read one 
frame later and apply [pix_rtx]. I've done this workaround before for 
similar situations.


But I got stuck before I even got to [pix_rtx]. Please see the attached 
patch.


In the patch you'll see 3 toggles, all of which I would have expected to 
show a rotated image textured onto a rectangle. Only one of them does. 
They are numbered right to left.


Box 1 shows the output of [pix_buffer_write]. That shows a rotated 
image. Fine so far.


Box 2 shows the output of [rotateXYZ] before [pix_buffer_write]. That 
shows a rotated white box with no image textured. Why?


Box 3 shows the output of [pix_buffer_read]. That shows an image but no 
rotation. Why? This one is especially troublesome to me.


I'm trying to make my questions as specific as possible. Please 
understand I have looked at plenty of examples of [rotateXYZ] and I 
understand the object and have made full use of it. And I have 
previously read about [pix_separator] and know the archives that refer 
to it. There's something else going on here about dataflow with Gem that 
I don't get. I can make up 10 other examples with 10 other objects if I 
have to.


-John

John Harrison wrote:
Thanks Hans. I know the example patch already and I have [pix_rtx] 
working fine inasfar as I can get it to do what the example patch 
already shows. I think my question is more about data flow and Gem. My 
patch and [pix_rtx} are just an example of a more basic 
misunderstanding I believe I have which has not been cleared up 
despite many hours of work in Gem.


Could somebody explain to me my [pix_rtx] in my example patch appears 
to be processed before the rotation instead of after?


-John

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner > wrote:



I think this is an appropriate place to discuss gem.  In the Help
browser, check out:

examples -> Gem -> 04.video -> 04.videoRTX.pd

I had to do some trickery to get it working OK.  Check the
archives for details, I remember some discussion about all the
separators.

.hc


On Mar 24, 2009, at 3:35 PM, John Harrison wrote:

Attached is a small example patch of how I just don't get
Gem...still...

[pix_rtx] has a steady wave that normally flows from left to
right.

I would have thought that the attached patch shows me rotating
the image first, then applying [pix_rtx]. So it would stand to
reason in my mind I would see a rotated image with [pix_rtx]
flowing from left to right.

But that isn't the result I see. The patch has [pix_rtx]
flowing from right to left now. It is as if [pix_rtx] is
applied *before* the rotation instead of *after* as I would
have expected.

Grasping at straws, I have tried [pix_separator] between just
about every object, but that makes no difference.

What am I misunderstanding that makes the behavior of the
patch make sense? And...how would I get [pix_rtx] to flow from
left to right on a mirrored image?

-John

P.S. Are questions like this better on the Gem-dev list?
That's a developer list but at the same time I feel a bit
awkward putting too many Gem questions on a Pd list

#N canvas 962 171 305 227 10;
#X obj 29 -58 gemhead;
#X obj 29 -35 pix_video;
#X obj 29 44 pix_texture;
#X obj 28 72 rectangle 4 3;
#X obj 159 9 gemwin;
#X msg 136 -34 create \, 1;
#X msg 214 -33 destroy;
#X obj 135 -57 loadbang;
#X obj 29 17 pix_rtx;
#X obj 29 -10 rotateXYZ 0 180 0;
#X connect 0 0 1 0;
#X connect 1 0 9 0;
#X connect 2 0 3 0;
#X connect 5 0 4 0;
#X connect 6 0 4 0;
#X connect 7 0 5 0;
#X connect 8 0 2 0;
#X connect 9 0 8 0;
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There is no way to peace, peace is the way.   -A.J. Muste





--
John Harrison
http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~harrison


#N canvas 373 161 758 508 10;
#X obj 472 38 gemhead;
#X obj 472 61 pix_video;
#X obj 59 322 pix_texture;
#X obj 59 352 rectangle 4 3;
#X obj 48 12 gemwin;
#X msg 25 -31 create \, 1;
#X msg 103 -30 destroy;
#X obj 24 -54 loadbang;
#X obj 625 -6 + 1;
#X floatatom 649 60 5 0 0 0 - - -;
#X floatatom 369 111 5 0 0 0 - - -;
#X obj 27 47 pix_buffer depot 3;
#X obj 370 83 % 3;
#X obj 625 21 % 3;
#X obj 506 123 pix_buffer_write depot;
#X obj 238 135 pix_buffer_read depot;
#X obj 369 32 int 0;
#X obj 414 -1 t b b

[PD] OSCX or mrpeach/osc ?

[Alvaro]

Hi,

I'm working on a new patch that uses OSC. I've been using OSCX so far, but then 
I came accross a page on pdpedia
that claims OSCX is no longer maintained, and that I should use mrpeach's 
objects instead. SVN history seems to confirm this, but then OSCX worksforme, 
is well documented, and there are plenty of examples. 
So, I don't want to step on anybody's toes, but what is the right choice for a 
new project? The alternative, to build an abstraction layer, would mean a lot 
of extra work. mrpeach are you there?

alvarito

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Re: [PD] still struggling with basic understanding of Gem dataflow

[John Harrison]

Thanks Hans. I know the example patch already and I have [pix_rtx] working
fine inasfar as I can get it to do what the example patch already shows. I
think my question is more about data flow and Gem. My patch and [pix_rtx}
are just an example of a more basic misunderstanding I believe I have which
has not been cleared up despite many hours of work in Gem.

Could somebody explain to me my [pix_rtx] in my example patch appears to be
processed before the rotation instead of after?

-John

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

>
> I think this is an appropriate place to discuss gem.  In the Help browser,
> check out:
>
> examples -> Gem -> 04.video -> 04.videoRTX.pd
>
> I had to do some trickery to get it working OK.  Check the archives for
> details, I remember some discussion about all the separators.
>
> .hc
>
>
> On Mar 24, 2009, at 3:35 PM, John Harrison wrote:
>
>  Attached is a small example patch of how I just don't get Gem...still...
>>
>> [pix_rtx] has a steady wave that normally flows from left to right.
>>
>> I would have thought that the attached patch shows me rotating the image
>> first, then applying [pix_rtx]. So it would stand to reason in my mind I
>> would see a rotated image with [pix_rtx] flowing from left to right.
>>
>> But that isn't the result I see. The patch has [pix_rtx] flowing from
>> right to left now. It is as if [pix_rtx] is applied *before* the rotation
>> instead of *after* as I would have expected.
>>
>> Grasping at straws, I have tried [pix_separator] between just about every
>> object, but that makes no difference.
>>
>> What am I misunderstanding that makes the behavior of the patch make
>> sense? And...how would I get [pix_rtx] to flow from left to right on a
>> mirrored image?
>>
>> -John
>>
>> P.S. Are questions like this better on the Gem-dev list? That's a
>> developer list but at the same time I feel a bit awkward putting too many
>> Gem questions on a Pd list
>>
>> #N canvas 962 171 305 227 10;
>> #X obj 29 -58 gemhead;
>> #X obj 29 -35 pix_video;
>> #X obj 29 44 pix_texture;
>> #X obj 28 72 rectangle 4 3;
>> #X obj 159 9 gemwin;
>> #X msg 136 -34 create \, 1;
>> #X msg 214 -33 destroy;
>> #X obj 135 -57 loadbang;
>> #X obj 29 17 pix_rtx;
>> #X obj 29 -10 rotateXYZ 0 180 0;
>> #X connect 0 0 1 0;
>> #X connect 1 0 9 0;
>> #X connect 2 0 3 0;
>> #X connect 5 0 4 0;
>> #X connect 6 0 4 0;
>> #X connect 7 0 5 0;
>> #X connect 8 0 2 0;
>> #X connect 9 0 8 0;
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>
>
>
>
> 
>
> There is no way to peace, peace is the way.   -A.J. Muste
>
>
>
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Re: [PD] default [output~] in Pd-extended

[Jonathan Wilkes]

--- On Wed, 3/25/09, Steffen Juul  wrote:

> From: Steffen Juul 
> Subject: Re: [PD] default [output~] in Pd-extended
> To: "Pd List" 
> Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 7:48 AM
> On 24/03/2009, at 18.10, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
> 
> > Scrolling in a number box is not a standard GUI
> interaction, and not particularly intuitive.
> 
> So thats the initial reason. Chancing the numberbox to a
> slider could live together with not making the colour
> changes i opposed to (- i shall not repeat it).

Actually, could you repeat it?  I searched the thread and couldn't find any 
remarks about the color.

If your point is that the tutorials are completely black and white, and that 
having a gop abstraction with colored gui's would be distracting-- I've thought 
about that, too.  But if that turns out to be the case it's a simple fix of 
just changing the slider and bng back to white (but maybe leaving the 
dsp-indicator green so you can quickly see if it's on or not).

> 
> Also I've meet Pd sliders i could not recognize as
> sliders for a while. As a total it took me longer to learn
> sliders then numberboxes, since the looks of sliders can be
> altered so much.
> 
> I rest my case, I don't think i get through.
> 
> Happy hacking.
> 
> 
> 
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