Re: [PD] PD with Ubuntu Karmic - no sound

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

How would we make Pd use that ALSA compatibility layer?  I know about  
the OSS emulation in Pulseaudio, I believe that would work by doing  
'padsp pd'.


.hc

On Nov 13, 2009, at 11:28 PM, John Harrison wrote:

IIRC there is some sort of ALSA compatibility layer in Pulseaudio  
and I think it would be nice if Pd-extended could choose this ALSA  
"driver" or "soft card" or whatever it would be called. That would  
be a better solution than pasuspender because then Pd would be  
playing "nice" with all the other sound apps concurrently. Latency  
might be slightly worse but I think for beginners at least the  
initial experience would be more positive, as many of these users  
are coming from OS X and Windows platforms where sound applications  
sharing the same sound card concurrently is expected behavior.


I also vaguely remember the pulseaudio is only an issue with ALSA  
when there is no hardware mixer in the card. But my guess is that  
would be all cheap sound cards, since it has been the case with the  
built-in cards on all the Linux-based laptops I run into.


-John

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:50 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner  
 wrote:


Is pasuspender something that could be integrated into the Pd- 
extended menu launch item somehow?  I'd really like to make sure  
that Pd will output audio by just starting it in Debian/Ubunut.


.hc

On Nov 12, 2009, at 12:09 PM, John Harrison wrote:


could be pulseaudio is the problem?

from the command line try

pasuspender pd

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Aditya Mandayam  
 wrote:

hi,

i have pd installed on ubunty 9.10 - karmic koala.

i have absolutely no sound when i fire up pd. i've tried fooling
around with the Media>settings for OSS, ALSA, jack, default MIDI.

No sound. What gives?

Thank you,

Y

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Re: [PD] PD with Ubuntu Karmic - no sound

[John Harrison]

IIRC there is some sort of ALSA compatibility layer in Pulseaudio and I
think it would be nice if Pd-extended could choose this ALSA "driver" or
"soft card" or whatever it would be called. That would be a better solution
than pasuspender because then Pd would be playing "nice" with all the other
sound apps concurrently. Latency might be slightly worse but I think for
beginners at least the initial experience would be more positive, as many of
these users are coming from OS X and Windows platforms where sound
applications sharing the same sound card concurrently is expected behavior.

I also vaguely remember the pulseaudio is only an issue with ALSA when there
is no hardware mixer in the card. But my guess is that would be all cheap
sound cards, since it has been the case with the built-in cards on all the
Linux-based laptops I run into.

-John

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:50 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

>
> Is pasuspender something that could be integrated into the Pd-extended menu
> launch item somehow?  I'd really like to make sure that Pd will output audio
> by just starting it in Debian/Ubunut.
>
> .hc
>
> On Nov 12, 2009, at 12:09 PM, John Harrison wrote:
>
> could be pulseaudio is the problem?
>
> from the command line try
>
> pasuspender pd
>
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Aditya Mandayam wrote:
>
>> hi,
>>
>> i have pd installed on ubunty 9.10 - karmic koala.
>>
>> i have absolutely no sound when i fire up pd. i've tried fooling
>> around with the Media>settings for OSS, ALSA, jack, default MIDI.
>>
>> No sound. What gives?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Y
>>
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>
>
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>
>
>
> 
>
> Computer science is no more related to the computer than astronomy is
> related to the telescope.  -Edsger Dykstra
>
>
>


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Re: [PD] Max4Live... How about Pd4Live?

[Justin Glenn Smith]

Jeffrey Concepcion wrote:
...

> To justin:
> Can ardour be customized as a performance tool (which is abletons key
> feature IMO)
> 

No need for customization to use it that way, actually. It does not have
the range of features that ableton live has, but I have used it successfuly
as a source of realtime tweaked automations  / a virtual mixing board / loop
recorder and player.

One thing it has that in my knowledge actually exceeds what ableton offers
is the versatility of the way buses / tracks can be inter-routed. Any number
of tracks and buses can be mixed into the input of any others (each track and
bus of course having configurable pre / post effects), without the artificial
limits that I have seen with ableton live.

I made a set of ladspa plugins a while back to allow controling puredata
parameters from ardour automations, it has some definite limitations usability
wise but it is available from http://code.google.com/p/noisesmith-linux-audio/
or direct download my last (but not very recent) version from
http://noisesmith-linux-audio.googlecode.com/files/ladosc.tar.bz2

It uses osc to send the parameter data so the ardour and pd processes can be
running on two different machines.

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Re: [PD] Max4Live... How about Pd4Live?

[Jeffrey Concepcion]

To Michal:
i see your point on the "openness", and thanks for that link. i doubt
Ableton will release it's source code, at least until they figure out how to
"open Live", as Gerhard mentioned, and still have enough income for 100
employees. It'll be a good day when Live users will be able to customize
it's GUI as necessary. As far as Pluggo goes, it has been discontinued but
reappears in Max4Live :o, .

To Hans:
Jack is definitely a great tool but, like i said, i don't know how it
handles midi, or how about OSC? i have to read more on the subject before i
can have an actual opinion.

To justin:
Can ardour be customized as a performance tool (which is abletons key
feature IMO)

Thanks for your input, fellas.

Jeff
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Re: [PD] PD with Ubuntu Karmic - no sound

[Tom Dunstan]

I can get sound going with karmic fine out of the box with alsa. however,
its not connecting with jack.
any suggestions on why that might be? Ardour and jack are fine with rt...

Pd version 0.42.5-extended-20091103 Karmic 9.10 32bit
uname -a
Linux local  2.6.31-9-rt #152-Ubuntu SMP PREEMPT RT Thu Oct 15 05:01:14 UTC
2009 i686 GNU/Linux

thanks


On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

>
> Is pasuspender something that could be integrated into the Pd-extended menu
> launch item somehow?  I'd really like to make sure that Pd will output audio
> by just starting it in Debian/Ubunut.
>
> .hc
>
> On Nov 12, 2009, at 12:09 PM, John Harrison wrote:
>
> could be pulseaudio is the problem?
>
> from the command line try
>
> pasuspender pd
>
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Aditya Mandayam wrote:
>
>> hi,
>>
>> i have pd installed on ubunty 9.10 - karmic koala.
>>
>> i have absolutely no sound when i fire up pd. i've tried fooling
>> around with the Media>settings for OSS, ALSA, jack, default MIDI.
>>
>> No sound. What gives?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Y
>>
>> ___
>> Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
>> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>>
>
>
>
> --
> John
> http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~harrison/
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>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> Computer science is no more related to the computer than astronomy is
> related to the telescope.  -Edsger Dykstra
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [PD] jack_transport~ little patch:rewind

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

On Nov 13, 2009, at 2:03 AM, Lorenzo wrote:


Hi Alex,

I submitted a patch in May [check the archives if you're interested]
which lets you the "locate" functionality of jack_transport from pd,
this lets you seek anywhere, |locate 0( seems to do what your rewind
does.  I didn't have any response from the author about it.
That sounds great! I wish I had searched better (or maybe asked here  
first). I think |locate 0( is better and more general, and yes  
ability to seek is also very useful.
Btw will this get at least into the Extended version for Linux? I'm  
sure it's really useful form many users.



Sounds like it would be good to have in Pd-extended, but I don't know  
the Jack stuff really at all, so I don't feel qualified to put it in.   
IOhannes has been doing the jack work.  Someone else could do it, as  
long as they make sure he's ok with it.


.hc



  ¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!



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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Phil Stone]

Roman Haefeli wrote:

Finally, we agree. I also think, that using $ twice is confusing, when
the uses are so different.

Personally, i wouldn't mind, if Pd would be changed instantaneously
while breaking backwards compatibility. But i don't think, that it is
realistic.

roman
  


Actually, all it would take to convert all old patches to this new form 
is one line of perl with a well-constructed regular expression.  I 
agree, still, that it is probably not going to happen.



Phil



On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 13:16 -0800, Phil Stone wrote:
  

Matt Barber wrote:


I am saying two things:

1) Without $0 or something similar, the only way to guarantee similar
locality would be through use of $1 or $n -- you would have to
manually give each instance an instance number.  Sometimes you even
want to be able to group instances in the way you suggested.  I'm not
sure of the history of Pd, but if $0 was implemented after
abstractions with arguments, then manually assigning locality was
probably necessary.

2) Sometimes $0 NEEDS to be inherited (probably as $1 or some such) by
various helper abstractions within a larger, higher-functioning
abstraction.  This is especially the case with dynamic patching --
imagine, say, a "bell synthesis" patch using a dynamically created
bank of enveloped oscillator abstractions.  In that case, you'd want
each oscillator abstraction to [throw~] to the same [catch~] within
the parent "instrument" abstraction.  To do this, you could have
[catch~ $0-out] within the parent, and [throw $1-out] within each
child, while passing the parent's $0 to the children.

So all I'm saying is that $1-$n often plays a really important role in
locality, in addition to a number of other things, and to me it seems
almost natural to use $0 as an analogy for this role.
  

Good points, all.



I personally
love the idea of using $0 as the selector of the abstraction -- its
name or filename, and $$ as its ID, but too late for that now.
  
  
I can't disagree with this, either.  Though, in the spirit of wishful 
thinking, I'll go it one further: abstraction arguments would ideally 
have a different form than message arguments.  E.g. #0...#n for message 
args., and $0...$n for abstraction args. (or, the other way around, 
whatever)...


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Re: [PD] PD with Ubuntu Karmic - no sound

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

Is pasuspender something that could be integrated into the Pd-extended  
menu launch item somehow?  I'd really like to make sure that Pd will  
output audio by just starting it in Debian/Ubunut.


.hc

On Nov 12, 2009, at 12:09 PM, John Harrison wrote:


could be pulseaudio is the problem?

from the command line try

pasuspender pd

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Aditya Mandayam  
 wrote:

hi,

i have pd installed on ubunty 9.10 - karmic koala.

i have absolutely no sound when i fire up pd. i've tried fooling
around with the Media>settings for OSS, ALSA, jack, default MIDI.

No sound. What gives?

Thank you,

Y

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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

Here's my summary of the proposals mentioned here:

I agree that $0 is totally arbitrary and is not inherintly bound to  
object boxes. I think this strongest proposed fix is to introduce $$  
which works in both object and message boxes, its a nice parallel to  
Bourne Shell syntax.  On that note, I think this should also come with  
Bourne Shell's $# for count of argument and $@ for a list of all  
arguments.  I think $$, $#, and $@ should work in both message and  
object boxes. So:


messages:
- $$ provides unique ID number
- $# provides argument count from incoming message
- $@ provides the list of arguments from incoming message

objects:
- $$ provides unique ID number
- $# provides argument count from incoming message
- $@ provides the list of arguments from incoming message

Now, all we need is someone to code  it :) I am certainly willing to  
try such a patch in the Pd-extended test builds.  And if it is proven  
to work without causing problems, then it could be included in final  
release, and hopefully work its way into Pd-vanilla as well.


I guess the place to start is someone putting together a proposal wiki  
page so we can document all the details.  Here's the place for it:

http://puredata.info/dev

.hc




Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to  
realize his wishes.  Now that he can realize them, he must either  
change them, or perish.-William Carlos Williams




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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

Someone could write their own message box object and make it do  
whatever they want.  Then you have both: a new interface and backwards  
compatibility.  The message box could just be a GUI object like any  
other, there is nothing inherently unique about it.


.hc

On Nov 13, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Roman Haefeli wrote:


Finally, we agree. I also think, that using $ twice is confusing, when
the uses are so different.

Personally, i wouldn't mind, if Pd would be changed instantaneously
while breaking backwards compatibility. But i don't think, that it is
realistic.

roman



On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 13:16 -0800, Phil Stone wrote:

Matt Barber wrote:

I am saying two things:

1) Without $0 or something similar, the only way to guarantee  
similar

locality would be through use of $1 or $n -- you would have to
manually give each instance an instance number.  Sometimes you even
want to be able to group instances in the way you suggested.  I'm  
not

sure of the history of Pd, but if $0 was implemented after
abstractions with arguments, then manually assigning locality was
probably necessary.

2) Sometimes $0 NEEDS to be inherited (probably as $1 or some  
such) by

various helper abstractions within a larger, higher-functioning
abstraction.  This is especially the case with dynamic patching --
imagine, say, a "bell synthesis" patch using a dynamically created
bank of enveloped oscillator abstractions.  In that case, you'd want
each oscillator abstraction to [throw~] to the same [catch~] within
the parent "instrument" abstraction.  To do this, you could have
[catch~ $0-out] within the parent, and [throw $1-out] within each
child, while passing the parent's $0 to the children.

So all I'm saying is that $1-$n often plays a really important  
role in
locality, in addition to a number of other things, and to me it  
seems

almost natural to use $0 as an analogy for this role.


Good points, all.


I personally
love the idea of using $0 as the selector of the abstraction -- its
name or filename, and $$ as its ID, but too late for that now.



I can't disagree with this, either.  Though, in the spirit of wishful
thinking, I'll go it one further: abstraction arguments would ideally
have a different form than message arguments.  E.g. #0...#n for  
message

args., and $0...$n for abstraction args. (or, the other way around,
whatever)...  Then (and only then, I think) would this discussion  
not be




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Re: [PD] Max4Live... How about Pd4Live?

[Justin Glenn Smith]

The Ableton / max integration is pretty awesome, and it will not be
possible to integrate pd into ableton without the ableton source code
or some difficult (and illegal) reverse engineering. And as far as
"open" goes, ardour is more open without any integration with any
other app (except, as Hans-Christof mentions, pervasively using jack
to share audio) than live would be with both max and pd integration.


Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
> 
> I don't really know what Max4Live is, but I can say you've been able to
> send/ receive audio to/from Pd using Jack for years.  I believe that the
> Pd jack implementation supports at least 64 jack connections, so if you
> use another Jack-enabled app, you can have up to 64 audio connections
> between them.  People do this together with Ardour and soft synths, I
> saw a very nice demo of this in 2007 by Lluis Carbonell.
> 
> The nice part of Max4Live is the GUI integration.  You could do that
> with Pd the way Sven Koenig does: he tiles his windows so Ableton is on
> the top half of the screen, and Pd is on the bottom half.

> On Nov 13, 2009, at 6:18 PM, Jeffrey Concepcion wrote:
> 
>> Is it possible to integrate Pd with Ableton Live in a way similar to
>> Max4Live, as a Live/Pd user (newbie really) this will be a very
>> important issue in my work. As far as i know, Max4live includes many
>> instruments that can be opened up in a Max canvas (similar to Pd)
>> environment for editing, as well as allowing additional access to the
>> inner workings of Live, http://www.ableton.com/maxforlive. I just
>> wanted to verify if there is (or going to be) any movement to allow
>> for such integration. i am already aware of Jack for sending audio
>> directly from pd to live and vice versa(not sure about midi
>> capabilities), but i'm refering to truly open possibilities that this
>> type of integration will allow.

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Re: [PD] Max4Live... How about Pd4Live?

[Pagano, Patrick]

i like the convergence but i do prefer pd over max/msp too gem&pdp over jitter
but i will certainly will have to explore it and see what shakes


From: pd-list-boun...@iem.at [pd-list-boun...@iem.at] On Behalf Of 
Hans-Christoph Steiner [h...@at.or.at]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:23 PM
To: Jeffrey Concepcion
Cc: pd-list
Subject: Re: [PD] Max4Live... How about Pd4Live?

I don't really know what Max4Live is, but I can say you've been able to send/ 
receive audio to/from Pd using Jack for years.  I believe that the Pd jack 
implementation supports at least 64 jack connections, so if you use another 
Jack-enabled app, you can have up to 64 audio connections between them.  People 
do this together with Ardour and soft synths, I saw a very nice demo of this in 
2007 by Lluis Carbonell.

The nice part of Max4Live is the GUI integration.  You could do that with Pd 
the way Sven Koenig does: he tiles his windows so Ableton is on the top half of 
the screen, and Pd is on the bottom half.

.hc

On Nov 13, 2009, at 6:18 PM, Jeffrey Concepcion wrote:

Is it possible to integrate Pd with Ableton Live in a way similar to Max4Live, 
as a Live/Pd user (newbie really) this will be a very important issue in my 
work. As far as i know, Max4live includes many instruments that can be opened 
up in a Max canvas (similar to Pd) environment for editing, as well as allowing 
additional access to the inner workings of Live, 
http://www.ableton.com/maxforlive. I just wanted to verify if there is (or 
going to be) any movement to allow for such integration. i am already aware of 
Jack for sending audio directly from pd to live and vice versa(not sure about 
midi capabilities), but i'm refering to truly open possibilities that this type 
of integration will allow.

Thanks,
   Jeff

--
www.avmachinists.org Puerto Rico based Art 
Collective/ Non-Profit Org
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day.  - “Hijab Scene #2", by Mohja Kahf



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Re: [PD] Max4Live... How about Pd4Live?

[Pagano, Patrick]

pdmaxisadoraflashliveunity-a-sauras.





From: pd-list-boun...@iem.at [pd-list-boun...@iem.at] On Behalf Of Michal Seta 
[...@artengine.ca]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:55 PM
To: Jeffrey Concepcion
Cc: pd-list
Subject: Re: [PD] Max4Live... How about Pd4Live?

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Jeffrey Concepcion
 wrote:
> i am already aware
> of Jack for sending audio directly from pd to live and vice versa(not sure
> about midi capabilities), but i'm refering to truly open possibilities that
> this type of integration will allow.

I think you are asking on the wrong list...  This question should
rather be directed to the Ableton Live developers.

I really do not want to appear as a troll and do not want to open a
can worms either but after reading the above quoted sentence I was not
sure what you meant by "open".
http://cec.concordia.ca/econtact/11_3/behles_ableton.html explains one
point of view about what open means in Ableton context and I believe
that jackd is actually a more open solution than M4L appears to be
(albeit less user-friendly to some extent but that's debatable).  I
have not tried M4L so my knowledge of it is rather inexistent but
while driving home last night I heard someone on the radio explaining
more-or-less how it works.  Far from "open", if I understood
correctly.  I guess you should follow Cyrille's suggestion, it sounds
like a reasonable compromise.

On the other hand, I think that M4L idea is brilliant, especially as a
marketing maneuver.

Out of curiosity, how different is M4L from Pluggo (I reckon Pluggo is
discontinued, or am I wrong again?) and could not Pluggo be used in
that context?

Thanks (and sorry if this happens to be off-topic.  Feel free to
respond privately)

./MiS

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Re: [PD] Max4Live... How about Pd4Live?

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

I don't really know what Max4Live is, but I can say you've been able  
to send/ receive audio to/from Pd using Jack for years.  I believe  
that the Pd jack implementation supports at least 64 jack connections,  
so if you use another Jack-enabled app, you can have up to 64 audio  
connections between them.  People do this together with Ardour and  
soft synths, I saw a very nice demo of this in 2007 by Lluis Carbonell.


The nice part of Max4Live is the GUI integration.  You could do that  
with Pd the way Sven Koenig does: he tiles his windows so Ableton is  
on the top half of the screen, and Pd is on the bottom half.


.hc

On Nov 13, 2009, at 6:18 PM, Jeffrey Concepcion wrote:

Is it possible to integrate Pd with Ableton Live in a way similar to  
Max4Live, as a Live/Pd user (newbie really) this will be a very  
important issue in my work. As far as i know, Max4live includes many  
instruments that can be opened up in a Max canvas (similar to Pd)  
environment for editing, as well as allowing additional access to  
the inner workings of Live, http://www.ableton.com/maxforlive. I  
just wanted to verify if there is (or going to be) any movement to  
allow for such integration. i am already aware of Jack for sending  
audio directly from pd to live and vice versa(not sure about midi  
capabilities), but i'm refering to truly open possibilities that  
this type of integration will allow.


Thanks,
   Jeff

--
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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Roman Haefeli]

Finally, we agree. I also think, that using $ twice is confusing, when
the uses are so different.

Personally, i wouldn't mind, if Pd would be changed instantaneously
while breaking backwards compatibility. But i don't think, that it is
realistic.

roman



On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 13:16 -0800, Phil Stone wrote:
> Matt Barber wrote:
> > I am saying two things:
> >
> > 1) Without $0 or something similar, the only way to guarantee similar
> > locality would be through use of $1 or $n -- you would have to
> > manually give each instance an instance number.  Sometimes you even
> > want to be able to group instances in the way you suggested.  I'm not
> > sure of the history of Pd, but if $0 was implemented after
> > abstractions with arguments, then manually assigning locality was
> > probably necessary.
> >
> > 2) Sometimes $0 NEEDS to be inherited (probably as $1 or some such) by
> > various helper abstractions within a larger, higher-functioning
> > abstraction.  This is especially the case with dynamic patching --
> > imagine, say, a "bell synthesis" patch using a dynamically created
> > bank of enveloped oscillator abstractions.  In that case, you'd want
> > each oscillator abstraction to [throw~] to the same [catch~] within
> > the parent "instrument" abstraction.  To do this, you could have
> > [catch~ $0-out] within the parent, and [throw $1-out] within each
> > child, while passing the parent's $0 to the children.
> >
> > So all I'm saying is that $1-$n often plays a really important role in
> > locality, in addition to a number of other things, and to me it seems
> > almost natural to use $0 as an analogy for this role.
> 
> Good points, all.
> 
> > I personally
> > love the idea of using $0 as the selector of the abstraction -- its
> > name or filename, and $$ as its ID, but too late for that now.
> >   
> 
> I can't disagree with this, either.  Though, in the spirit of wishful 
> thinking, I'll go it one further: abstraction arguments would ideally 
> have a different form than message arguments.  E.g. #0...#n for message 
> args., and $0...$n for abstraction args. (or, the other way around, 
> whatever)...  Then (and only then, I think) would this discussion not be 



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Re: [PD] Max4Live... How about Pd4Live?

[Michal Seta]

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Jeffrey Concepcion
 wrote:
> i am already aware
> of Jack for sending audio directly from pd to live and vice versa(not sure
> about midi capabilities), but i'm refering to truly open possibilities that
> this type of integration will allow.

I think you are asking on the wrong list...  This question should
rather be directed to the Ableton Live developers.

I really do not want to appear as a troll and do not want to open a
can worms either but after reading the above quoted sentence I was not
sure what you meant by "open".
http://cec.concordia.ca/econtact/11_3/behles_ableton.html explains one
point of view about what open means in Ableton context and I believe
that jackd is actually a more open solution than M4L appears to be
(albeit less user-friendly to some extent but that's debatable).  I
have not tried M4L so my knowledge of it is rather inexistent but
while driving home last night I heard someone on the radio explaining
more-or-less how it works.  Far from "open", if I understood
correctly.  I guess you should follow Cyrille's suggestion, it sounds
like a reasonable compromise.

On the other hand, I think that M4L idea is brilliant, especially as a
marketing maneuver.

Out of curiosity, how different is M4L from Pluggo (I reckon Pluggo is
discontinued, or am I wrong again?) and could not Pluggo be used in
that context?

Thanks (and sorry if this happens to be off-topic.  Feel free to
respond privately)

./MiS

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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Matteo Sisti Sette]

> The way I see is that $1...$n are related to the inheritance concept.
> They
> could be used inside [send~] & [receive~] objects to force some
> sort of
> locality, but you can't really guarantee locality by that, it is just
> some way around that is not 100% safe

There's no guarantee of "locality" whatsoever in using $0 either. If you 
create a [send $0-xxx] and the identifier of the containing (instance of 
an) abstraction happens to be 1032, and then in some other patch or 
abstraction you have a literal [receive 1032-xxx], the "locality" will 
be lost.



Using $0 as a prefix to the name of "local" sends and receives preserves 
locality only provided that you never use "literal" numbers as a prefix 
in the name of sends or receives.


So $0 is not so different from other creation arguments (i.e. $1...); 
the difference is that it is assigned automatically by the system and 
that it is done in such a way that no two instances of any abstraction 
will have the same value of $0.


Using it for creating "local" names is just one way of using it, just as 
you can use explicit creation arguments for the same purpose (by taking 
the responsibility of ensuring uniqueness), although it is probably its 
main "intended" use.


--
Matteo Sisti Sette
matteosistise...@gmail.com
http://www.matteosistisette.com

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Re: [PD] Max4Live... How about Pd4Live?

[cyrille henry]

you can use a pd patch with max, using the pd~ object.
so you can imagine pd4max4live...
;-)

Cyrille


Jeffrey Concepcion a écrit :
Is it possible to integrate Pd with Ableton Live in a way similar to 
Max4Live, as a Live/Pd user (newbie really) this will be a very 
important issue in my work. As far as i know, Max4live includes many 
instruments that can be opened up in a Max canvas (similar to Pd) 
environment for editing, as well as allowing additional access to the 
inner workings of Live, http://www.ableton.com/maxforlive. I just wanted 
to verify if there is (or going to be) any movement to allow for such 
integration. i am already aware of Jack for sending audio directly from 
pd to live and vice versa(not sure about midi capabilities), but i'm 
refering to truly open possibilities that this type of integration will 
allow.


Thanks,
   Jeff

--
www.avmachinists.org  Puerto Rico based Art 
Collective/ Non-Profit Org





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[PD] Max4Live... How about Pd4Live?

[Jeffrey Concepcion]

Is it possible to integrate Pd with Ableton Live in a way similar to
Max4Live, as a Live/Pd user (newbie really) this will be a very important
issue in my work. As far as i know, Max4live includes many instruments that
can be opened up in a Max canvas (similar to Pd) environment for editing, as
well as allowing additional access to the inner workings of Live,
http://www.ableton.com/maxforlive. I just wanted to verify if there is (or
going to be) any movement to allow for such integration. i am already aware
of Jack for sending audio directly from pd to live and vice versa(not sure
about midi capabilities), but i'm refering to truly open possibilities that
this type of integration will allow.

Thanks,
   Jeff

-- 
www.avmachinists.org Puerto Rico based Art Collective/ Non-Profit Org
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Re: [PD] imager (how to build an imager in pd?)

[Johannes]

hi chris,

i read a bit about the rss stuff - that sounds nice.
but i have no idea how to use the phase to get something like the 
results of the rss technoligy.

can you please give me an exsample or an startingpoint on that?

thanks alot.
j

chris clepper schrieb:
Look into the Haas effect and also changing phase along with delay 
time.  Roland had a technology called RSS that could do pretty wild 
things with the stereo image based on phase and delay.


On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 5:20 AM, Johannes > wrote:


thanks guys,

andrew, nice that you wrote about the logic imager. i was inspired
by it to think about how the imager effect workes.
do you think there is no delay between the channels at all? is it
just stereo filtering?

any other voices on how to build an imager in pd?

jo






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Re: [PD] [PD-dev] Space for pd under Windows

[Georg Werner]

Hi,

i compiled it for you (you can do it yourself with cygwin/mingw32)
http://puredata.info/Members/fricklr/space.dll
cheers
g.

Isidro Gonzalez schrieb:

Hello:
Does anyone compiled and/or used the pd implementation
of the Space Unit Generator of F. R. Moore made by
Yadegari?
Here is the link:
http://crca.ucsd.edu/~yadegari/space.html

If someone knows where to find the compiled external and/or
a Windows-adapted code, that will save me a lot of work.
Best
Isi





  


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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Phil Stone]

Matt Barber wrote:

I am saying two things:

1) Without $0 or something similar, the only way to guarantee similar
locality would be through use of $1 or $n -- you would have to
manually give each instance an instance number.  Sometimes you even
want to be able to group instances in the way you suggested.  I'm not
sure of the history of Pd, but if $0 was implemented after
abstractions with arguments, then manually assigning locality was
probably necessary.

2) Sometimes $0 NEEDS to be inherited (probably as $1 or some such) by
various helper abstractions within a larger, higher-functioning
abstraction.  This is especially the case with dynamic patching --
imagine, say, a "bell synthesis" patch using a dynamically created
bank of enveloped oscillator abstractions.  In that case, you'd want
each oscillator abstraction to [throw~] to the same [catch~] within
the parent "instrument" abstraction.  To do this, you could have
[catch~ $0-out] within the parent, and [throw $1-out] within each
child, while passing the parent's $0 to the children.

So all I'm saying is that $1-$n often plays a really important role in
locality, in addition to a number of other things, and to me it seems
almost natural to use $0 as an analogy for this role.


Good points, all.


I personally
love the idea of using $0 as the selector of the abstraction -- its
name or filename, and $$ as its ID, but too late for that now.
  


I can't disagree with this, either.  Though, in the spirit of wishful 
thinking, I'll go it one further: abstraction arguments would ideally 
have a different form than message arguments.  E.g. #0...#n for message 
args., and $0...$n for abstraction args. (or, the other way around, 
whatever)...  Then (and only then, I think) would this discussion not be 
on auto-repeat here.




Phil
http://www.pkstonemusic.com/pubmusic.html

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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Alexandre Porres]

Oh, cool, yeah, that is a nice design, I see it now.

but anyways, I still see $0 as locality and the rest as inheritance, as you
are just still making a child inherit (by $1) a parent's local $0 ID.

> I personally love the idea of using $0 as the selector
> of the abstraction -- its name or filename, and $$ as
> its ID, but too late for that now.

now that wasn't clear for me, but if we keep on it I suggest we might need
to change the thread name maybe.

I hope this thread would stick to the point that the find feature could do a
better job by finding "$0", and that "$0" could be used in messages since it
is useless the way it is.

thanks
alex


On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Matt Barber  wrote:

> I am saying two things:
>
> 1) Without $0 or something similar, the only way to guarantee similar
> locality would be through use of $1 or $n -- you would have to
> manually give each instance an instance number.  Sometimes you even
> want to be able to group instances in the way you suggested.  I'm not
> sure of the history of Pd, but if $0 was implemented after
> abstractions with arguments, then manually assigning locality was
> probably necessary.
>
> 2) Sometimes $0 NEEDS to be inherited (probably as $1 or some such) by
> various helper abstractions within a larger, higher-functioning
> abstraction.  This is especially the case with dynamic patching --
> imagine, say, a "bell synthesis" patch using a dynamically created
> bank of enveloped oscillator abstractions.  In that case, you'd want
> each oscillator abstraction to [throw~] to the same [catch~] within
> the parent "instrument" abstraction.  To do this, you could have
> [catch~ $0-out] within the parent, and [throw $1-out] within each
> child, while passing the parent's $0 to the children.
>
> So all I'm saying is that $1-$n often plays a really important role in
> locality, in addition to a number of other things, and to me it seems
> almost natural to use $0 as an analogy for this role.  I personally
> love the idea of using $0 as the selector of the abstraction -- its
> name or filename, and $$ as its ID, but too late for that now.
>
> Matt
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Alexandre Porres 
> wrote:
> > hmm, I am sorry, I don't think I got what you meant... could you give an
> > example please?
> > The way I see is that $1...$n are related to the inheritance concept.
> They
> > could be used inside [send~] & [receive~] objects to force some sort of
> > locality, but you can't really guarantee locality by that, it is just
> some
> > way around that is not 100% safe, cause if you have [s $1-gain] in an
> > abstraction, and $1 inheriting "A" for instance, a [s A-gain] object in a
> > parent patch (or even on another opened patch) would still get the value
> > globally.
> > cheers
> > alex
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 5:28 PM, Matt Barber 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Without $0, one would have to use $1 ... $n for locality.  $0 of a
> >> parent patch often needs to be passed as $1 to a child for proper
> >> locality, for instance, so I don't think they are necessarily THAT
> >> different conceptually.
> >>
> >> Matt
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Alexandre Porres 
> >> wrote:
> >> >> Calling this an exception creates
> >> >> the impression, that $1 in a message
> >> >> is the same as in an object.
> >> > Hmm, I see you have a point! But I am just used to consider "$0" and
> >> > "$1, $2
> >> > ... $n" different/separate things, being "$0" solely a locality
> sintax.
> >> > Putting them as separate concepts I see "$1, $2 ... $n" as two
> different
> >> > things wether in messages or objects, and that "$0" is just useless in
> >> > messages.
> >> > Anyway, I am cool with what needs to be done in order to put "$0" in
> >> > messages, I still think it's a bit of an unnecessary hassle, but it
> >> > ain't
> >> > that much of a big deal after all.
> >> > The thing that had no other way around was using the Find feature to
> >> > actually find them, so I thought about bringing this all up: the
> >> > hassle and
> >> > the problem.
> >> > I now see that uncheking "whole word" in the new version is just
> another
> >> > "way around" rather than actually getting the Find feature to look for
> >> > "$0",
> >> > or even for the window number once we explicitly tell it which one it
> >> > is.
> >> > So, nerverminding about "$0" in messages, I would still make a point
> >> > here
> >> > for the Find feature to be able to find "$0", I hope it isn't much
> >> > hassle
> >> > getting it to do so.
> >> > Thanks a bunch folks!
> >> > Cheers
> >> > alex
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 8:03 AM, Roman Haefeli 
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Am 12.11.09 17:21 schrieb "Alexandre Porres" unter  >:
> >> >>
> >> >> > But I totally disagree, I have been teaching a lot basic Pd around,
> >> >> > and
> >> >> > people
> >> >> > always get confused and think they can just throw "$0" in messages.
> >> >> > So I
> >> >> > have
> >> >> > to state and 

Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009, Roman Haefeli wrote:

On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 18:08 +0100, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:

The only thing i don't really get: Why seems there some agreement, that
using $0 to get the selector could be confusing?

because i want to get the selector of an object-box as well (it's name).

What the hell is the selector of an object box?


when an objectbox is created, its contents («binbuf») are $-evaluated as 
when a messagebox receives a message (but commas and semicolons are left 
untouched), and then the whole contents are sent to &pd_objectmaker as a 
message. therefore [moses 42] has receiver=&pd_objectmaker, 
selector=moses, $1=42.


The selector is the creator's name, which is usually the same as the 
class' name, but not always (because aliases are possible). The difference 
is mostly only visible in the default names of helpfiles. I often say that 
the classname is the selector, even though it's not technically true, 
because it's almost true (a damn lot more than calling it the objectname, 
anyway).


 _ _ __ ___ _  _ _ ...
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Re: [PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[Aditya Mandayam]

hmm. do i need to delete previous builds? or simply install this package?

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 8:13 PM, patrick  wrote:
> you can try this build:
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1455235/Pd-0.42.5-extended-20091113.deb
>
> fresh from today
>
>
>
>

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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Matt Barber]

I am saying two things:

1) Without $0 or something similar, the only way to guarantee similar
locality would be through use of $1 or $n -- you would have to
manually give each instance an instance number.  Sometimes you even
want to be able to group instances in the way you suggested.  I'm not
sure of the history of Pd, but if $0 was implemented after
abstractions with arguments, then manually assigning locality was
probably necessary.

2) Sometimes $0 NEEDS to be inherited (probably as $1 or some such) by
various helper abstractions within a larger, higher-functioning
abstraction.  This is especially the case with dynamic patching --
imagine, say, a "bell synthesis" patch using a dynamically created
bank of enveloped oscillator abstractions.  In that case, you'd want
each oscillator abstraction to [throw~] to the same [catch~] within
the parent "instrument" abstraction.  To do this, you could have
[catch~ $0-out] within the parent, and [throw $1-out] within each
child, while passing the parent's $0 to the children.

So all I'm saying is that $1-$n often plays a really important role in
locality, in addition to a number of other things, and to me it seems
almost natural to use $0 as an analogy for this role.  I personally
love the idea of using $0 as the selector of the abstraction -- its
name or filename, and $$ as its ID, but too late for that now.

Matt

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Alexandre Porres  wrote:
> hmm, I am sorry, I don't think I got what you meant... could you give an
> example please?
> The way I see is that $1...$n are related to the inheritance concept. They
> could be used inside [send~] & [receive~] objects to force some sort of
> locality, but you can't really guarantee locality by that, it is just some
> way around that is not 100% safe, cause if you have [s $1-gain] in an
> abstraction, and $1 inheriting "A" for instance, a [s A-gain] object in a
> parent patch (or even on another opened patch) would still get the value
> globally.
> cheers
> alex
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 5:28 PM, Matt Barber  wrote:
>>
>> Without $0, one would have to use $1 ... $n for locality.  $0 of a
>> parent patch often needs to be passed as $1 to a child for proper
>> locality, for instance, so I don't think they are necessarily THAT
>> different conceptually.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Alexandre Porres 
>> wrote:
>> >> Calling this an exception creates
>> >> the impression, that $1 in a message
>> >> is the same as in an object.
>> > Hmm, I see you have a point! But I am just used to consider "$0" and
>> > "$1, $2
>> > ... $n" different/separate things, being "$0" solely a locality sintax.
>> > Putting them as separate concepts I see "$1, $2 ... $n" as two different
>> > things wether in messages or objects, and that "$0" is just useless in
>> > messages.
>> > Anyway, I am cool with what needs to be done in order to put "$0" in
>> > messages, I still think it's a bit of an unnecessary hassle, but it
>> > ain't
>> > that much of a big deal after all.
>> > The thing that had no other way around was using the Find feature to
>> > actually find them, so I thought about bringing this all up: the
>> > hassle and
>> > the problem.
>> > I now see that uncheking "whole word" in the new version is just another
>> > "way around" rather than actually getting the Find feature to look for
>> > "$0",
>> > or even for the window number once we explicitly tell it which one it
>> > is.
>> > So, nerverminding about "$0" in messages, I would still make a point
>> > here
>> > for the Find feature to be able to find "$0", I hope it isn't much
>> > hassle
>> > getting it to do so.
>> > Thanks a bunch folks!
>> > Cheers
>> > alex
>> >
>> > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 8:03 AM, Roman Haefeli 
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Am 12.11.09 17:21 schrieb "Alexandre Porres" unter :
>> >>
>> >> > But I totally disagree, I have been teaching a lot basic Pd around,
>> >> > and
>> >> > people
>> >> > always get confused and think they can just throw "$0" in messages.
>> >> > So I
>> >> > have
>> >> > to state and reinforce that there is an exception that it doesn't
>> >> > work
>> >> > on
>> >> > messages.
>> >>
>> >> Calling this an exception creates the impression, that $1 in a message
>> >> is the same as in an object.
>> >>
>> >> > Without an exception at all, it should be easier to get it, as I
>> >> > understand.
>> >>
>> >> Agreed. But currently, the only thing that makes $0 in a message
>> >> exceptional
>> >> is the fact, that it has no meaning at all. Making it be replaced by
>> >> the
>> >> canvas identifier wouldn't make it less exceptional at all.
>> >>
>> >> roman
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo!
>> >> Mail:
>> >> http://mail.yahoo.de
>> >
>> >
>
>

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h

Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Justin Glenn Smith]

Alexandre Porres wrote:
> hmm, I am sorry, I don't think I got what you meant... could you give an
> example please?
> 
> The way I see is that $1...$n are related to the inheritance concept. They
> could be used inside [send~] & [receive~] objects to force some sort of
> locality, but you can't really guarantee locality by that, it is just some
> way around that is not 100% safe, cause if you have [s $1-gain] in an
> abstraction, and $1 inheriting "A" for instance, a [s A-gain] object in a
> parent patch (or even on another opened patch) would still get the value
> globally.

A frequent pd design pattern is to have a subpatch that wants to, for example,
tell its own subpatch about a unique array name or receive or receive~ object.

The way this is commonly done is to make $0 of the subpatch the first argument
to the subpatch's subpatch.


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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Alexandre Porres]

hmm, I am sorry, I don't think I got what you meant... could you give an
example please?

The way I see is that $1...$n are related to the inheritance concept. They
could be used inside [send~] & [receive~] objects to force some sort of
locality, but you can't really guarantee locality by that, it is just some
way around that is not 100% safe, cause if you have [s $1-gain] in an
abstraction, and $1 inheriting "A" for instance, a [s A-gain] object in a
parent patch (or even on another opened patch) would still get the value
globally.

cheers
alex


On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 5:28 PM, Matt Barber  wrote:

> Without $0, one would have to use $1 ... $n for locality.  $0 of a
> parent patch often needs to be passed as $1 to a child for proper
> locality, for instance, so I don't think they are necessarily THAT
> different conceptually.
>
> Matt
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Alexandre Porres 
> wrote:
> >> Calling this an exception creates
> >> the impression, that $1 in a message
> >> is the same as in an object.
> > Hmm, I see you have a point! But I am just used to consider "$0" and "$1,
> $2
> > ... $n" different/separate things, being "$0" solely a locality sintax.
> > Putting them as separate concepts I see "$1, $2 ... $n" as two different
> > things wether in messages or objects, and that "$0" is just useless in
> > messages.
> > Anyway, I am cool with what needs to be done in order to put "$0" in
> > messages, I still think it's a bit of an unnecessary hassle, but it ain't
> > that much of a big deal after all.
> > The thing that had no other way around was using the Find feature to
> > actually find them, so I thought about bringing this all up: the
> hassle and
> > the problem.
> > I now see that uncheking "whole word" in the new version is just another
> > "way around" rather than actually getting the Find feature to look for
> "$0",
> > or even for the window number once we explicitly tell it which one it is.
> > So, nerverminding about "$0" in messages, I would still make a point here
> > for the Find feature to be able to find "$0", I hope it isn't much hassle
> > getting it to do so.
> > Thanks a bunch folks!
> > Cheers
> > alex
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 8:03 AM, Roman Haefeli 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Am 12.11.09 17:21 schrieb "Alexandre Porres" unter :
> >>
> >> > But I totally disagree, I have been teaching a lot basic Pd around,
> and
> >> > people
> >> > always get confused and think they can just throw "$0" in messages. So
> I
> >> > have
> >> > to state and reinforce that there is an exception that it doesn't work
> >> > on
> >> > messages.
> >>
> >> Calling this an exception creates the impression, that $1 in a message
> >> is the same as in an object.
> >>
> >> > Without an exception at all, it should be easier to get it, as I
> >> > understand.
> >>
> >> Agreed. But currently, the only thing that makes $0 in a message
> >> exceptional
> >> is the fact, that it has no meaning at all. Making it be replaced by the
> >> canvas identifier wouldn't make it less exceptional at all.
> >>
> >> roman
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail:
> >> http://mail.yahoo.de
> >
> >
>
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Re: [PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[patrick]

you can try this build:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1455235/Pd-0.42.5-extended-20091113.deb

fresh from today




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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Matteo Sisti Sette]

> But I am just used to consider "$0" and "$1, $2
> ... $n" different/separate things, being "$0" solely
> a locality sintax.

Well I don't know about implementation, but conceptually, I don't see $0 
(in object boxes) as something that much different than $1..$n: you can 
think of $0 as just one more creation argument of the containing patch 
(a numeric value), only that it is assigned automatically and guaranteed 
to be unique.



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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Matt Barber]

Without $0, one would have to use $1 ... $n for locality.  $0 of a
parent patch often needs to be passed as $1 to a child for proper
locality, for instance, so I don't think they are necessarily THAT
different conceptually.

Matt

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Alexandre Porres  wrote:
>> Calling this an exception creates
>> the impression, that $1 in a message
>> is the same as in an object.
> Hmm, I see you have a point! But I am just used to consider "$0" and "$1, $2
> ... $n" different/separate things, being "$0" solely a locality sintax.
> Putting them as separate concepts I see "$1, $2 ... $n" as two different
> things wether in messages or objects, and that "$0" is just useless in
> messages.
> Anyway, I am cool with what needs to be done in order to put "$0" in
> messages, I still think it's a bit of an unnecessary hassle, but it ain't
> that much of a big deal after all.
> The thing that had no other way around was using the Find feature to
> actually find them, so I thought about bringing this all up: the hassle and
> the problem.
> I now see that uncheking "whole word" in the new version is just another
> "way around" rather than actually getting the Find feature to look for "$0",
> or even for the window number once we explicitly tell it which one it is.
> So, nerverminding about "$0" in messages, I would still make a point here
> for the Find feature to be able to find "$0", I hope it isn't much hassle
> getting it to do so.
> Thanks a bunch folks!
> Cheers
> alex
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 8:03 AM, Roman Haefeli  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 12.11.09 17:21 schrieb "Alexandre Porres" unter :
>>
>> > But I totally disagree, I have been teaching a lot basic Pd around, and
>> > people
>> > always get confused and think they can just throw "$0" in messages. So I
>> > have
>> > to state and reinforce that there is an exception that it doesn't work
>> > on
>> > messages.
>>
>> Calling this an exception creates the impression, that $1 in a message
>> is the same as in an object.
>>
>> > Without an exception at all, it should be easier to get it, as I
>> > understand.
>>
>> Agreed. But currently, the only thing that makes $0 in a message
>> exceptional
>> is the fact, that it has no meaning at all. Making it be replaced by the
>> canvas identifier wouldn't make it less exceptional at all.
>>
>> roman
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail:
>> http://mail.yahoo.de
>
>

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Re: [PD] compiling externals on snow leopard

[Rich E]

I compiled the pd-gui-rewrite branch today as 64bit with portaudio support,
but haven't tested it much.

To compile portaudio as 64bit, you need the the sources from their svn.  If
I try to compile using the sources included with pd, I get a bunch of
deprecation warnings followed by a syntax error.  If I update the source
codes to those in portaudio's svn trunk, the syntax error goes away but
there are still many deprecation warnings.  But, I have audio, with and
without jack.

The configure script doesn't like it when I do:
export CFLAGS="-arch i386 -arch x86_64"
export LDFLAGS="-arch i386 -arch x86_64"

This is how I compiled portaudio, but when I do it with pd, the configure
script reports gcc as unusable.  Is there a better way to make gcc compile
universal binaries?

Rich

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

>
> portaudio provides CoreAudio support already.  It is AudioUnit support that
> is in the works, which I suppose is part of CoreAudio.  What are the errors
> with portaudio in pd-gui-rewrite?  It would be good to get those fixed
> there, since you said that portaudio on its own can build fine for 64-bit
> (or am I mistaken?)
>
> .hc
>
> On Nov 11, 2009, at 8:21 PM, Rich E wrote:
>
> Got it compiled and it looks nice.  The portaudio failed, same as
> Pd-Vanilla, but I guess you aren't worried about that because you are
> working on getting coreaudio support (which would be nice).  Jack works,
> everything is sounds nice and stable.
>
> The only thing I noticed is that expr cannot be found.  I have only tried a
> few of the example patches so far.
>
> cheers,
> Rich
>
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:57 AM, Rich E  wrote:
>
>> Oops, my fault.  I had some residual CFLAGS from trying to get Gem to
>> compile... onward :)
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:23 AM, Rich E  wrote:
>>
>>> On running a regular ./configure in the gui rewrite branch, I get the
>>> error:
>>>
>>> checking for C compiler default output file name...
>>> configure: error: in
>>> `/Users/richardeakin/Downloads/src/pd-gui-rewrite-0.43':
>>> configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables
>>> See `config.log' for more details.
>>>
>>> I attached the config.log, any ideas?
>>>
>>> Rich
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:29 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner 
>>> wrote:
>>>

 The build system in vanilla/extended is pretty ugly, especially for Mac
 OS X.  The build system in the pd-gui-rewrite/0.43 branch has been 
 rewritten
 from scratch to be a full autotools build system.  That should fix the
 -isysroot and --disable-portaudio problem you mention.  Try it out, and we
 can fix any issues there.

 svn co
 https://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pure-data/branches/pd-gui-rewrite/0.43/
 cd 0.43
 ./autogen.sh && ./configure --enable-jack --disable-portaudio && make

 .hc

 On Nov 11, 2009, at 6:08 PM, Rich E wrote:

 Oops, I accidentally just sent my last post to Hans.  Please read this
 and the post below...

 I have been slowly figuring out the last problem, where gcc can't find
 my headers in /usr/include.  It is because the configure line:

 if test "x$fat" == "xyes";
 then
 MORECFLAGS="-isysroot /Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.4u.sdk \
 -arch i386 -arch ppc -Wno-error"

 First, I don't know why this is necessary, but I'm sure somebody does.
 I also don't know why OS X 10.6 is being detected as fat anything.

 I can install the MacOSX10.4u.sdk from the Xcode disk, but then gcc
 can't find a good stdarg.h, as the one include within that sdk has a
 #include_next stdarg.h directive.  Then, with this -sysroot flag, gcc
 doesn't search any other directory and none of the 20 other stdarg.h files
 on my computer are found.  I remove this flag and the header files are 
 found
 elsewhere just fine.

 I compiled Portaudio from svn as universal binary with 64bit.  But, this
 library doesn't work with Pd's portaudio source files and the new sources
 don't work with Pd's sources.  So, I can't get past building the portaudio
 objects.  I tried just using jack with "./configure --enable-jack
 --disable-portaudio", but the build script still tries to build portaudio
 and fails.

 This is all with pd vanilla from Miller's website.  I'm also trying to
 build the Pd extended sources, but I suppose I should start a new thread 
 for
 the problem I hit there..

 On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 3:29 AM, Rich E  wrote:

> Macports made me a universal binary portaudio, thankfully because I
> could not get it to compile as 64 bit from the source (I posted why on the
> portaudio mailing list).
>
> I'm having other annoying problems with my build system, probably
> something very stupid that I am not aware of.  Neither Pd nor Pd-extended
> can find header files in /usr/include.  This i

Re: [PD] object that blocks stream of numbers unless new values arrive?

[jurgen]

what about [change] ?

without asking the list you find a lot of clues by following the discussions on 
the 'hurleur' forum and analyzing posted patches there. that's what I do anyway.

Cheers
J

On Nov 14, 2009, at 2:19 AM, altern wrote:

> hi
> 
> is there a spigot type of object that blocks numbers from a stream
> unless the value is different than the previos one that arrived?
> 
> i just want to avoid reinventing the wheel... i am using pd extended
> right now so if any library there has something like this it would be
> nice to know.
> 
> btw. is there anywhere i can check this kind of things without asking the 
> list?
> 
> thanks
> 
> enrike
> 
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[PD] object that blocks stream of numbers unless new values arrive?

[altern]

hi

is there a spigot type of object that blocks numbers from a stream
unless the value is different than the previos one that arrived?

i just want to avoid reinventing the wheel... i am using pd extended
right now so if any library there has something like this it would be
nice to know.

btw. is there anywhere i can check this kind of things without asking the list?

thanks

enrike

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Re: [PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[Aditya Mandayam]

ok. i now have gem 0.93 working fine on pd.
this is after following roman and olsen's instructions: also, i used
no flags with the autogen.sh script.

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:54 PM, olsen  wrote:
>
>
> Aditya Mandayam wrote:
>>
>> this is indeed going out to the pd list at large :-)
>
> okidoky
>>
>> http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2009-11/073902.html
>>
>> i launch pd by:
>>
>> $ pasuspender pd
>>
>> and output:
>>
>> GEM: Graphics Environment for Multimedia
>> GEM: ver: 0.90
>> GEM: compiled: May 14 2009
>> GEM: maintained by IOhannes m zmoelnig
>> GEM: Authors :  Mark Danks (original version on irix/windows)
>> GEM:            Chris Clepper (macOS-X)
>> GEM:            Daniel Heckenberg (windows)
>> GEM:            James Tittle (macOS-X)
>> GEM:            IOhannes m zmoelnig (linux/windows)
>
> seems there's a version conflict as there's GEM: Graphics Environment for
> Multimedia GEM: ver: 0.90
> & i guess you would like to use the compiled version a.k.a. gem-svn which
> should show up as GEM: ver: 0.93.CVS
> so seems like you've an old gem version(0.90) installed
> replace this one with your actual compiled version.
>
> why are you opening pd with pasuspender?
>
>>
>> and on putting a gemwin object, everything comes crashing down.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:37 PM, olsen 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> hm guess at this point you might have to provide some more infos about
>>> the
>>> pd/gem-version you're using & the output of your startup, which patch
>>> makes
>>> it crash & the output when gem actually crashes.
>>>
>>> & please cc to the list as there is more gem knowledge around!
>>>
>>>
>>> Aditya Mandayam wrote:

 so i followed your steps.
 pd still crashes when i put a gemwin object.
 whats wrong?

 On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 5:21 PM, olsen 
 wrote:
>
> i don't know the path to your pd sources ;) but i unpacked my pd-source
> from
> http://downloads.sourceforge.net/pure-data/pd-0.42-5.src.tar.gz
> to /home/olsen/pd/pd-0.42-5
> so my configure looks like this:
> ./configure --with-libv4l2 --with-pd=/home/olsen/pd/pd-0.42-5
>
> Aditya Mandayam wrote:
>>
>> how do i find the path to my pd sources?
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 4:50 PM, IOhannes m zmoelnig 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> olsen wrote:

 get the current gem svn with:
 svn co https://pd-gem.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pd-gem pd-gem
 then change to the src directory:
 cd /pd-gem/trunk/Gem/src
 check the README.linux to make shure you've the dependencies
 onboard.
 then
 ./autogen.sh
 ./configure --with-libv4l2 --with-pd=/pathtopdsources/
 make

 open pd & the help of pix_video and change the driver message to
 [driver
 v4l2] if this fits your camera
>>>
>>> actually v4l2 should be the default (if available)
>>>
>>> fmasdr
>>> IOhannes
>>>
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>
>>> --
>>> ETs DNA will not be televised
>>>
>
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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Phil Stone]

Roman Haefeli wrote:

While definitely understanding your irritation, the only point of your
writing i was able to find is that it would make it 'easier'.
  


No, it's that the idea of "$0 = special case" is only used when talking 
about message boxes; $0 is also a special case in object boxes, yet it 
is accepted there.  Thus, I find this argument inconsistent.


I am quite willing to bear the continued burden of coaxing $0 into 
messages for dynamic patching (I simply have no choice).  I would just 
like to see the reasoning against $0 in message boxes be less specious, 
and therefore less confusing to the overall issue.



I definitely cannot support the idea of making one special case (that
arises a lot, i admit) easier, while disregarding completely the
concepts and consistency.
  


As I said, it's the very *inconsistency* of this argument that bothers me.


Phil
http://www.pkstonemusic.com/pubmusic.html

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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Roman Haefeli]

On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 18:08 +0100, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:

> 
> >> The only thing i don't really get: Why seems there some agreement, that
> >> using $0 to get the selector could be confusing?
> 
> because i want to get the selector of an object-box as well (it's name).

What the hell is the selector of an object box?


Not addressed to you directly, IOhannes:
What is so difficult about thinking the canvas identifier as an
implicitly given argument to a patch? If seen as that, it is not special
at all as it is used in objects. While currently it still has a special
status, how it is (not) used in message boxes.

I see, that i am not adding to this discussion anymore. Sorry for that.
Nevertheless, i'll fight against any change, that'll add
inconsistencies.

Roman



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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Roman Haefeli]

While definitely understanding your irritation, the only point of your
writing i was able to find is that it would make it 'easier'.

I definitely cannot support the idea of making one special case (that
arises a lot, i admit) easier, while disregarding completely the
concepts and consistency.

Luckily, i don't have make this decision. However, i still think $0 in
message boxes should expand to the selector of the incoming message.

roman


On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 08:54 -0800, Phil Stone wrote:
> Roman Haefeli wrote:
> > This is obviously a loop. All this has been said and proposed before in the
> > thread [1], that has been posted by alex porres a few posts back. Sorry for
> > not having brought any new perspectives into the discussion, but having just
> > repeated what has been said already.
> >   
> 
> Hi Roman,
> 
> 
> I think the fact that this is an eternally-recurring topic points to 
> just how irritating this one little foible of Pd is -- it's confusing to 
> newbies, and it's annoying to more experienced programmers.
> 
> 
> I want to address the point you brought up in the first message:
> 
> > $0 in messages is only special in the sense, that it has no meaning at all.
> > it wouldn't make it less special to use it as a container for canvas
> > identifier in message boxes. $-variables in objects have a different meaning
> > from $-variables in message boxes, no matter what. I understand, that it
> > would make patching often a lot easier, but conceptually it would be
> > exceptional to make $0 in message-boxes be replaced by the
> > canvas-identifier, while all other $n-variables in message-boxes get
> > replaced by the n-th element of the incoming list.
> 
> But $0 is exceptional in *all* cases!  Its use in objects has a very 
> different meaning than the use of $1, $2 in objects.  Yet no one 
> calls for eliminating $0 from object boxes -- why is the same argument 
> repeated over and over as justification for its prohibition in message 
> boxes?  I just don't understand this.
> 
> 
> If only (as many have said) "$0" had been written as "#0" or something 
> else completely un-encumbered with ideas about what "$" must mean in Pd.
> 
> 
> > The only thing i don't really get: Why seems there some agreement, that
> > using $0 to get the selector could be confusing?
> 
> 
> Well, I think that would make things even worse - further muddying the 
> waters, as it were, by adding yet another meaning to the dollar-sign.  I 
> don't see it as any more consistent or "pure", given the unique role 
> that $0 has in *all* cases.
> 
> 
> When all is said and done, things in the Pd world will go on as they 
> have, and we won't really suffer because of this one little grain of 
> sand in our shell.  But we probably will continue to discuss it every 
> few months!
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> Phil
> http://www.pkstonemusic.com/pubmusic.html
> 
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Re: [PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[olsen]

Aditya Mandayam wrote:

this is indeed going out to the pd list at large :-)

okidoky


http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2009-11/073902.html

i launch pd by:

$ pasuspender pd

and output:

GEM: Graphics Environment for Multimedia
GEM: ver: 0.90
GEM: compiled: May 14 2009
GEM: maintained by IOhannes m zmoelnig
GEM: Authors :  Mark Danks (original version on irix/windows)
GEM:Chris Clepper (macOS-X)
GEM:Daniel Heckenberg (windows)
GEM:James Tittle (macOS-X)
GEM:IOhannes m zmoelnig (linux/windows)
seems there's a version conflict as there's GEM: Graphics Environment 
for Multimedia GEM: ver: 0.90
& i guess you would like to use the compiled version a.k.a. gem-svn 
which should show up as GEM: ver: 0.93.CVS

so seems like you've an old gem version(0.90) installed
replace this one with your actual compiled version.

why are you opening pd with pasuspender?



and on putting a gemwin object, everything comes crashing down.

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:37 PM, olsen  wrote:

hm guess at this point you might have to provide some more infos about the
pd/gem-version you're using & the output of your startup, which patch makes
it crash & the output when gem actually crashes.

& please cc to the list as there is more gem knowledge around!


Aditya Mandayam wrote:

so i followed your steps.
pd still crashes when i put a gemwin object.
whats wrong?

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 5:21 PM, olsen 
wrote:

i don't know the path to your pd sources ;) but i unpacked my pd-source
from
http://downloads.sourceforge.net/pure-data/pd-0.42-5.src.tar.gz
to /home/olsen/pd/pd-0.42-5
so my configure looks like this:
./configure --with-libv4l2 --with-pd=/home/olsen/pd/pd-0.42-5

Aditya Mandayam wrote:

how do i find the path to my pd sources?

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 4:50 PM, IOhannes m zmoelnig 
wrote:

olsen wrote:

get the current gem svn with:
svn co https://pd-gem.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pd-gem pd-gem
then change to the src directory:
cd /pd-gem/trunk/Gem/src
check the README.linux to make shure you've the dependencies onboard.
then
./autogen.sh
./configure --with-libv4l2 --with-pd=/pathtopdsources/
make

open pd & the help of pix_video and change the driver message to
[driver
v4l2] if this fits your camera

actually v4l2 should be the default (if available)

fmasdr
IOhannes

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Re: [PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[Roman Haefeli]

On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 17:02 +0100, Aditya Mandayam wrote:
> how do i find the path to my pd sources?
> 
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 4:50 PM, IOhannes m zmoelnig  wrote:
> > olsen wrote:
> >> get the current gem svn with:
> >> svn co https://pd-gem.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pd-gem pd-gem
> >> then change to the src directory:
> >> cd /pd-gem/trunk/Gem/src
> >> check the README.linux to make shure you've the dependencies onboard.
> >> then
> >> ./autogen.sh
> >> ./configure --with-libv4l2 --with-pd=/pathtopdsources/
> >> make

try the ./configure step first without any flags. actually both flags
are supposed to be not needed in a 'normal' environment. gem's configure
should detect libv4l, if you have the package 'libv4l-dev' installed.
also you usually shouldn't need to tell ./configure where the pd sources
are, since if you have pd already installed it will look
in /usr/local/include and /usr/include for the necessary files.

and before doing the steps from autogen.sh, do first:

sudo aptitude build-dep gem && sudo aptitude installlibmagick++-dev

(the libmagick++-dev part is not mandatory, but it will enable gem to
use imagemagick library for reading many image formats)

this will install all necessary packages and their respective dev
packages for compiling gem.

roman


> >> open pd & the help of pix_video and change the driver message to [driver
> >> v4l2] if this fits your camera
> >
> > actually v4l2 should be the default (if available)
> >
> > fmasdr
> > IOhannes
> >
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Re: [PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[Aditya Mandayam]

this is indeed going out to the pd list at large :-)

http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2009-11/073902.html

i launch pd by:

$ pasuspender pd

and output:

GEM: Graphics Environment for Multimedia
GEM: ver: 0.90
GEM: compiled: May 14 2009
GEM: maintained by IOhannes m zmoelnig
GEM: Authors :  Mark Danks (original version on irix/windows)
GEM:Chris Clepper (macOS-X)
GEM:Daniel Heckenberg (windows)
GEM:James Tittle (macOS-X)
GEM:IOhannes m zmoelnig (linux/windows)

and on putting a gemwin object, everything comes crashing down.

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:37 PM, olsen  wrote:
> hm guess at this point you might have to provide some more infos about the
> pd/gem-version you're using & the output of your startup, which patch makes
> it crash & the output when gem actually crashes.
>
> & please cc to the list as there is more gem knowledge around!
>
>
> Aditya Mandayam wrote:
>>
>> so i followed your steps.
>> pd still crashes when i put a gemwin object.
>> whats wrong?
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 5:21 PM, olsen 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> i don't know the path to your pd sources ;) but i unpacked my pd-source
>>> from
>>> http://downloads.sourceforge.net/pure-data/pd-0.42-5.src.tar.gz
>>> to /home/olsen/pd/pd-0.42-5
>>> so my configure looks like this:
>>> ./configure --with-libv4l2 --with-pd=/home/olsen/pd/pd-0.42-5
>>>
>>> Aditya Mandayam wrote:

 how do i find the path to my pd sources?

 On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 4:50 PM, IOhannes m zmoelnig 
 wrote:
>
> olsen wrote:
>>
>> get the current gem svn with:
>> svn co https://pd-gem.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pd-gem pd-gem
>> then change to the src directory:
>> cd /pd-gem/trunk/Gem/src
>> check the README.linux to make shure you've the dependencies onboard.
>> then
>> ./autogen.sh
>> ./configure --with-libv4l2 --with-pd=/pathtopdsources/
>> make
>>
>> open pd & the help of pix_video and change the driver message to
>> [driver
>> v4l2] if this fits your camera
>
> actually v4l2 should be the default (if available)
>
> fmasdr
> IOhannes
>
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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Phil Stone]

IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:

Phil Stone wrote:

  

I think the fact that this is an eternally-recurring topic points to
just how irritating this one little foible of Pd is -- it's confusing to
newbies, 



i agree

  

and it's annoying to more experienced programmers.



but i can't follow here .-)
  


Well, I'm annoyed.  :-)  But I think I'll get over it.


But $0 is exceptional in *all* cases!  Its use in objects has a very
different meaning than the use of $1, $2 in objects.  Yet no one
calls for eliminating $0 from object boxes -- why is the same argument
  


actually i do.
obviously it would break everything, so i won't say that loud.


as explained lengthily months ago, i still don't think that messages
should have any notion of the surrounding patch.
  


I'd be interested in reading that, though I haven't been able to find 
the post yet.  Do you have a reference?


Currently, the only time I've needed to get $0 into a message is for 
dynamic patching.  Since this practice is an unloved bastard child of 
Pd, it's unlikely I'll get anywhere advocating for making it easier.  
Nevertheless, the less-readable patches (as if dynamic patches aren't 
obscure enough!) that result from the contortions needed to get $0 into 
the message annoy me, and tempt me to write bad, name-clash-ripe dynamic 
objects.



Best,

Phil
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Re: [PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[olsen]

hm guess at this point you might have to provide some more infos about 
the pd/gem-version you're using & the output of your startup, which 
patch makes it crash & the output when gem actually crashes.


& please cc to the list as there is more gem knowledge around!


Aditya Mandayam wrote:

so i followed your steps.
pd still crashes when i put a gemwin object.
whats wrong?

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 5:21 PM, olsen  wrote:

i don't know the path to your pd sources ;) but i unpacked my pd-source from
http://downloads.sourceforge.net/pure-data/pd-0.42-5.src.tar.gz
to /home/olsen/pd/pd-0.42-5
so my configure looks like this:
./configure --with-libv4l2 --with-pd=/home/olsen/pd/pd-0.42-5

Aditya Mandayam wrote:

how do i find the path to my pd sources?

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 4:50 PM, IOhannes m zmoelnig 
wrote:

olsen wrote:

get the current gem svn with:
svn co https://pd-gem.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pd-gem pd-gem
then change to the src directory:
cd /pd-gem/trunk/Gem/src
check the README.linux to make shure you've the dependencies onboard.
then
./autogen.sh
./configure --with-libv4l2 --with-pd=/pathtopdsources/
make

open pd & the help of pix_video and change the driver message to [driver
v4l2] if this fits your camera

actually v4l2 should be the default (if available)

fmasdr
IOhannes

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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

Phil Stone wrote:

> 
> I think the fact that this is an eternally-recurring topic points to
> just how irritating this one little foible of Pd is -- it's confusing to
> newbies, 

i agree

> and it's annoying to more experienced programmers.

but i can't follow here .-)

> But $0 is exceptional in *all* cases!  Its use in objects has a very
> different meaning than the use of $1, $2 in objects.  Yet no one
> calls for eliminating $0 from object boxes -- why is the same argument

actually i do.
obviously it would break everything, so i won't say that loud.

> repeated over and over as justification for its prohibition in message
> boxes?  I just don't understand this.
> 
> 
> If only (as many have said) "$0" had been written as "#0" or something
> else completely un-encumbered with ideas about what "$" must mean in Pd.

but why "0"? what is #1 to mean then?
i always favoured a more bash-like syntax, e.g. "$$" (which is the PID
of a process; i think this maps nicely to what $0 currently is)

>> The only thing i don't really get: Why seems there some agreement, that
>> using $0 to get the selector could be confusing?

because i want to get the selector of an object-box as well (it's name).

> Well, I think that would make things even worse - further muddying the
> waters, as it were, by adding yet another meaning to the dollar-sign.  I
> don't see it as any more consistent or "pure", given the unique role
> that $0 has in *all* cases.

as explained lengthily months ago, i still don't think that messages
should have any notion of the surrounding patch.

> When all is said and done, things in the Pd world will go on as they
> have, and we won't really suffer because of this one little grain of
> sand in our shell.  But we probably will continue to discuss it every
> few months!

don't know whether we should.
most likely, we will.

fgmasdr
IOhannes


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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Phil Stone]

Roman Haefeli wrote:

This is obviously a loop. All this has been said and proposed before in the
thread [1], that has been posted by alex porres a few posts back. Sorry for
not having brought any new perspectives into the discussion, but having just
repeated what has been said already.
  


Hi Roman,


I think the fact that this is an eternally-recurring topic points to 
just how irritating this one little foible of Pd is -- it's confusing to 
newbies, and it's annoying to more experienced programmers.



I want to address the point you brought up in the first message:


$0 in messages is only special in the sense, that it has no meaning at all.
it wouldn't make it less special to use it as a container for canvas
identifier in message boxes. $-variables in objects have a different meaning
from $-variables in message boxes, no matter what. I understand, that it
would make patching often a lot easier, but conceptually it would be
exceptional to make $0 in message-boxes be replaced by the
canvas-identifier, while all other $n-variables in message-boxes get
replaced by the n-th element of the incoming list.


But $0 is exceptional in *all* cases!  Its use in objects has a very 
different meaning than the use of $1, $2 in objects.  Yet no one 
calls for eliminating $0 from object boxes -- why is the same argument 
repeated over and over as justification for its prohibition in message 
boxes?  I just don't understand this.



If only (as many have said) "$0" had been written as "#0" or something 
else completely un-encumbered with ideas about what "$" must mean in Pd.




The only thing i don't really get: Why seems there some agreement, that
using $0 to get the selector could be confusing?



Well, I think that would make things even worse - further muddying the 
waters, as it were, by adding yet another meaning to the dollar-sign.  I 
don't see it as any more consistent or "pure", given the unique role 
that $0 has in *all* cases.



When all is said and done, things in the Pd world will go on as they 
have, and we won't really suffer because of this one little grain of 
sand in our shell.  But we probably will continue to discuss it every 
few months!



Best,

Phil
http://www.pkstonemusic.com/pubmusic.html

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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Alexandre Porres]

> Calling this an exception creates
> the impression, that $1 in a message
> is the same as in an object.

Hmm, I see you have a point! But I am just used to consider "$0" and "$1, $2
... $n" different/separate things, being "$0" solely a locality sintax.

Putting them as separate concepts I see "$1, $2 ... $n" as two different
things wether in messages or objects, and that "$0" is just useless in
messages.

Anyway, I am cool with what needs to be done in order to put "$0" in
messages, I still think it's a bit of an unnecessary hassle, but it ain't
that much of a big deal after all.

The thing that had no other way around was using the Find feature to
actually find them, so I thought about bringing this all up: the hassle and
the problem.

I now see that uncheking "whole word" in the new version is just another
"way around" rather than actually getting the Find feature to look for "$0",
or even for the window number once we explicitly tell it which one it is.

So, nerverminding about "$0" in messages, I would still make a point here
for the Find feature to be able to find "$0", I hope it isn't much hassle
getting it to do so.

Thanks a bunch folks!
Cheers
alex


On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 8:03 AM, Roman Haefeli  wrote:

>
>
>
> Am 12.11.09 17:21 schrieb "Alexandre Porres" unter :
>
> > But I totally disagree, I have been teaching a lot basic Pd around, and
> people
> > always get confused and think they can just throw "$0" in messages. So I
> have
> > to state and reinforce that there is an exception that it doesn't work on
> > messages.
>
> Calling this an exception creates the impression, that $1 in a message
> is the same as in an object.
>
> > Without an exception at all, it should be easier to get it, as I
> > understand.
>
> Agreed. But currently, the only thing that makes $0 in a message
> exceptional
> is the fact, that it has no meaning at all. Making it be replaced by the
> canvas identifier wouldn't make it less exceptional at all.
>
> roman
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[olsen]

i don't know the path to your pd sources ;) but i unpacked my pd-source 
from http://downloads.sourceforge.net/pure-data/pd-0.42-5.src.tar.gz

to /home/olsen/pd/pd-0.42-5
so my configure looks like this:
./configure --with-libv4l2 --with-pd=/home/olsen/pd/pd-0.42-5

Aditya Mandayam wrote:

how do i find the path to my pd sources?

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 4:50 PM, IOhannes m zmoelnig  wrote:

olsen wrote:

get the current gem svn with:
svn co https://pd-gem.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pd-gem pd-gem
then change to the src directory:
cd /pd-gem/trunk/Gem/src
check the README.linux to make shure you've the dependencies onboard.
then
./autogen.sh
./configure --with-libv4l2 --with-pd=/pathtopdsources/
make

open pd & the help of pix_video and change the driver message to [driver
v4l2] if this fits your camera

actually v4l2 should be the default (if available)

fmasdr
IOhannes

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Re: [PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

Aditya Mandayam wrote:
> how do i find the path to my pd sources?

it's where you have pd installed from.

"normally" you would have the full sources of Pd, which you used to
compile Pd from.
if you haven't compiled it yourself, you can either download the sources
used to compile Pd and point to these.

alternatively, you could hope that the package you installed has also
installed the necessary headers for you.
luckily both the official puredata package and hc's Pd-extended deb
installs m_pd.h, so that should get you going without having to specify
anything with --with-pd.
note: Gem optionally uses private headers of Pd, won't get installed by
most packages (actually, none that i know).
having these header files lying around will give you some extra comfort:
e.g. you don't have to set the path to point to the Gem-abstractions.
without having these headers, you have to do this manually (if you want
the abstractions); but that's the only drawback.


fgmasdr
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Re: [PD] [++ ] object wont work

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009, Konstantinos Benardis wrote:


I want to trigger a bang when a specific number occurs in a serie of running
numbers for example from the output of a line object. I use the [== ] object
to lookup but the object wont work if the numbers are running too fast. What
could be the problem? Is there another way to do the lookup?


[>=]
 |
[t a a]
  \ /
   X
  / \
[!=   ]

will check whether you are above or below, and then will check whether 
this status has changed since last message.


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Re: [PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[Aditya Mandayam]

how do i find the path to my pd sources?

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 4:50 PM, IOhannes m zmoelnig  wrote:
> olsen wrote:
>> get the current gem svn with:
>> svn co https://pd-gem.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pd-gem pd-gem
>> then change to the src directory:
>> cd /pd-gem/trunk/Gem/src
>> check the README.linux to make shure you've the dependencies onboard.
>> then
>> ./autogen.sh
>> ./configure --with-libv4l2 --with-pd=/pathtopdsources/
>> make
>>
>> open pd & the help of pix_video and change the driver message to [driver
>> v4l2] if this fits your camera
>
> actually v4l2 should be the default (if available)
>
> fmasdr
> IOhannes
>
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Re: [PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

olsen wrote:
> get the current gem svn with:
> svn co https://pd-gem.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pd-gem pd-gem
> then change to the src directory:
> cd /pd-gem/trunk/Gem/src
> check the README.linux to make shure you've the dependencies onboard.
> then
> ./autogen.sh
> ./configure --with-libv4l2 --with-pd=/pathtopdsources/
> make
> 
> open pd & the help of pix_video and change the driver message to [driver
> v4l2] if this fits your camera

actually v4l2 should be the default (if available)

fmasdr
IOhannes


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Re: [PD] imager (how to build an imager in pd?)

[chris clepper]

Look into the Haas effect and also changing phase along with delay time.
Roland had a technology called RSS that could do pretty wild things with the
stereo image based on phase and delay.

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 5:20 AM, Johannes  wrote:

> thanks guys,
>
> andrew, nice that you wrote about the logic imager. i was inspired by it to
> think about how the imager effect workes.
> do you think there is no delay between the channels at all? is it just
> stereo filtering?
>
> any other voices on how to build an imager in pd?
>
> jo
>
>
>
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Re: [PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[olsen]

get the current gem svn with:
svn co https://pd-gem.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/pd-gem pd-gem
then change to the src directory:
cd /pd-gem/trunk/Gem/src
check the README.linux to make shure you've the dependencies onboard.
then
./autogen.sh
./configure --with-libv4l2 --with-pd=/pathtopdsources/
make

open pd & the help of pix_video and change the driver message to [driver 
v4l2] if this fits your camera

hope this helps
ø

Aditya Mandayam wrote:

olsen could you be a bit more verbose on the steps re: gem svn and pix_video?

this is what i get now:

WARNING: Child process terminated by signal 11
pd_gui: pd process exited


On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 3:35 PM, olsen  wrote:

i posted this already: an elegant way to bypass the LD_PRELOAD is to install
libv4l & libv4l-dev & configure gem-svn with:
 ./configure --with-libv4l2 --with-pd=/pathtopdsources/
then set the driver of pix_video with a driver v4l2 message
this works for me on ubuntu karmic
salutis
olsen

Jose Luis Santorcuato wrote:

My large solution... i installed ubuntu 8.10 and PD, then upgrade to
 9.04, then 9.10, when the program ask to eliminate the old packets say
no... and open terminal and write: LD_PRELOAD=/usr/lib/libv4l/v4l1compat.so
pd   is the form to call a gem in ubuntu, you must install libv4l and
others video libraries.

Best regards from Chile

José

2009/11/13 cyrille henry mailto:c...@chnry.net>>

   yes, of course.
   on karmic it's just like any other ubuntu release : get the last svn,
   install all dependency,
   go to src/
   aclocal
   autoconf
   ./configure
   make

   id something fail, send the error and the output of ./configure


   cyrille


   Aditya Mandayam a écrit :

   ok :-)
   care to expand on how you set it up?

   On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:45 PM, cyrille henry mailto:c...@chnry.net>> wrote:

   yes,

   cyrille


   Aditya Mandayam a écrit :

   has anyone successfully gotten gem working on karmic?

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Re: [PD] copying one array to another very fast

[glerm soares]

Why not [iem_tab] externals?

abraço
glerm
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Re: [PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[olsen]

i posted this already: an elegant way to bypass the LD_PRELOAD is to 
install libv4l & libv4l-dev & configure gem-svn with:

 ./configure --with-libv4l2 --with-pd=/pathtopdsources/
then set the driver of pix_video with a driver v4l2 message
this works for me on ubuntu karmic
salutis
olsen

Jose Luis Santorcuato wrote:
My large solution... i installed ubuntu 8.10 and PD, then upgrade to  
9.04, then 9.10, when the program ask to eliminate the old packets say 
no... and open terminal and write: 
LD_PRELOAD=/usr/lib/libv4l/v4l1compat.so pd   is the form to call a 
gem in ubuntu, you must install libv4l and others video libraries.


Best regards from Chile

José

2009/11/13 cyrille henry mailto:c...@chnry.net>>

yes, of course.
on karmic it's just like any other ubuntu release : get the last svn,
install all dependency,
go to src/
aclocal
autoconf
./configure
make

id something fail, send the error and the output of ./configure


cyrille


Aditya Mandayam a écrit :

ok :-)
care to expand on how you set it up?

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:45 PM, cyrille henry mailto:c...@chnry.net>> wrote:

yes,

cyrille


Aditya Mandayam a écrit :

has anyone successfully gotten gem working on karmic?

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Re: [PD] copying one array to another very fast

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

João Pais wrote:
>> definitely not mine.
>> it's günther rabl's toolset, ported to Pd by thomas grrrill.
>>
>> hey, all of us are austrians; no nationalism intended.
> 
> tut mir Leid, war zu faul, um herauszusuchen. nächstes Mal mache ich es
> wieder falsch, aber nicht mit deinem Namen.

i was flattered anyhow :-)

fgmasfrt
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Re: [PD] copying one array to another very fast

[João Pais]

definitely not mine.
it's günther rabl's toolset, ported to Pd by thomas grrrill.

hey, all of us are austrians; no nationalism intended.


tut mir Leid, war zu faul, um herauszusuchen. nächstes Mal mache ich es  
wieder falsch, aber nicht mit deinem Namen.


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Re: [PD] [++ ] object wont work

[Konstantinos Benardis]

Indeed the number was not in the stream. I was changing the number with the
mouse which does not produce all the numbers in the serie.

Thank you

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Martin Schied  wrote:

>
>
> Konstantinos Benardis wrote:
>
>> Hi list
>>
>> I want to trigger a bang when a specific number occurs in a serie of
>> running numbers for example from the output of a line object. I use the [==
>> ] object to lookup but the object wont work if the numbers are running too
>> fast. What could be the problem? Is there another way to do the lookup?
>>
>>  hi!
>
> this could have several reasons:
>
> - if you are using graphical bangs they don't blink when triggered at high
> rates
>
> - possibly be the number doesn't appear in the stream - try to use "print"
> and look if the number is actually there. the line object only outputs some
> numbers between its start and end. if you want to have all integer numbers
> between start and end you could use counters, see attached patch.
>
> - the value is a float value and doesnt exactly match the value to be
> compared with, even when displayed as equal when using a number to display
> them. to solve this either use an [int] object before comparing the numbers
> or give a range, for example to compare 4 and 4.1 to be "equal" you
> could use 4 - 4.1 <= 0.001
>
> cheers,
> martin
>
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Re: [PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[Jose Luis Santorcuato]

My large solution... i installed ubuntu 8.10 and PD, then upgrade to  9.04,
then 9.10, when the program ask to eliminate the old packets say no... and
open terminal and write: LD_PRELOAD=/usr/lib/libv4l/v4l1compat.so pd   is
the form to call a gem in ubuntu, you must install libv4l and others video
libraries.

Best regards from Chile

José

2009/11/13 cyrille henry 

> yes, of course.
> on karmic it's just like any other ubuntu release : get the last svn,
> install all dependency,
> go to src/
> aclocal
> autoconf
> ./configure
> make
>
> id something fail, send the error and the output of ./configure
>
>
> cyrille
>
>
> Aditya Mandayam a écrit :
>
>> ok :-)
>> care to expand on how you set it up?
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:45 PM, cyrille henry  wrote:
>>
>>> yes,
>>>
>>> cyrille
>>>
>>>
>>> Aditya Mandayam a écrit :
>>>
 has anyone successfully gotten gem working on karmic?

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[PD] Space for pd under Windows

[Isidro Gonzalez]

Hello:
Does anyone compiled and/or used the pd implementation
of the Space Unit Generator of F. R. Moore made by
Yadegari?
Here is the link:
http://crca.ucsd.edu/~yadegari/space.html

If someone knows where to find the compiled external and/or
a Windows-adapted code, that will save me a lot of work.
Best
Isi





  

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Re: [PD] imager (how to build an imager in pd?)

[Martin Schied]

Johannes wrote:

thanks guys,

andrew, nice that you wrote about the logic imager. i was inspired by 
it to think about how the imager effect workes.
do you think there is no delay between the channels at all? is it just 
stereo filtering?


any other voices on how to build an imager in pd?
there was Georg Holzmann's spatialization workshop also explaining some 
of the underlying perception mechanisms.


the workshop media, containing several self explaining patches are on 
the net:


http://grh.mur.at/misc/PdSpatialization.tar.gz

cheers
Martin

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Re: [PD] [++ ] object wont work

[Martin Schied]

Konstantinos Benardis wrote:

Hi list

I want to trigger a bang when a specific number occurs in a serie of 
running numbers for example from the output of a line object. I use 
the [== ] object to lookup but the object wont work if the numbers are 
running too fast. What could be the problem? Is there another way to 
do the lookup?



hi!

this could have several reasons:

- if you are using graphical bangs they don't blink when triggered at 
high rates


- possibly be the number doesn't appear in the stream - try to use 
"print" and look if the number is actually there. the line object only 
outputs some numbers between its start and end. if you want to have all 
integer numbers between start and end you could use counters, see 
attached patch.


- the value is a float value and doesnt exactly match the value to be 
compared with, even when displayed as equal when using a number to 
display them. to solve this either use an [int] object before comparing 
the numbers or give a range, for example to compare 4 and 4.1 to 
be "equal" you could use 4 - 4.1 <= 0.001


cheers,
martin


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Re: [PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[cyrille henry]

yes, of course.
on karmic it's just like any other ubuntu release : 
get the last svn,

install all dependency,
go to src/
aclocal
autoconf
./configure
make

id something fail, send the error and the output of ./configure

cyrille


Aditya Mandayam a écrit :

ok :-)
care to expand on how you set it up?

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:45 PM, cyrille henry  wrote:

yes,

cyrille


Aditya Mandayam a écrit :

has anyone successfully gotten gem working on karmic?

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Re: [PD] copying one array to another very fast

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

João Pais wrote:
> I'm sure that in zmoelnig's (?) VASP there's something to do this. but I
> can't look at it myself now.


definitely not mine.
it's günther rabl's toolset, ported to Pd by thomas grrrill.

hey, all of us are austrians; no nationalism intended.

fgmasdr
IOhannes



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Re: [PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[Aditya Mandayam]

ok :-)
care to expand on how you set it up?

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:45 PM, cyrille henry  wrote:
> yes,
>
> cyrille
>
>
> Aditya Mandayam a écrit :
>>
>> has anyone successfully gotten gem working on karmic?
>>
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Re: [PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[cyrille henry]

yes,

cyrille


Aditya Mandayam a écrit :

has anyone successfully gotten gem working on karmic?

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[PD] gem on ubuntu karmic?

[Aditya Mandayam]

has anyone successfully gotten gem working on karmic?

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[PD] [++ ] object wont work

[Konstantinos Benardis]

Hi list

I want to trigger a bang when a specific number occurs in a serie of running
numbers for example from the output of a line object. I use the [== ] object
to lookup but the object wont work if the numbers are running too fast. What
could be the problem? Is there another way to do the lookup?

Thank you
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Re: [PD] imager (how to build an imager in pd?)

[Johannes]

thanks guys,

andrew, nice that you wrote about the logic imager. i was inspired by it 
to think about how the imager effect workes.
do you think there is no delay between the channels at all? is it just 
stereo filtering?


any other voices on how to build an imager in pd?

jo

Andrew Faraday schrieb:
Dunno if this is relevant. The stereo imager on Logic Pro assigns 
frequency bands to be boosted and cut slightly in each channel 
(roughly describing a sine wave through the frequency spectrum) so 
that there'll be more of one band in the left, the same band is 
slightly cut in the right, thus creating the illusion of a wider 
stereo image. Although this is fully adjustable so I can't really tell 
you where to start emulating this. It's a very subtle effect, too, 
even at it's most severe there's very little difference.


As a simple version of this you could use the hi-fi 'surround' method, 
simply boost the treble (from about 10kHz) in one or other chanel, in 
theory then that will cause more reflectivity in the room and stereo 
effects become 'surround' (sic) effects. It's not as good as it 
sounds, but it is one way to vary your stereo image.







> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:37:03 +0100
> From: de...@umatic.nl
> To: this_is_...@web.de
> CC: pd-list@iem.at
> Subject: Re: [PD] imager
>
> Ah you must mean this:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereo_imaging
>
> Your delay idea only covers one part of the psychoacoustics of the
> stereo image: the difference in time when a sound reaches each ear.
> Psychoacoustics are a bit more complicated than that I'm afraid. You
> might look up HRTF (head related transfer functions) to get a better
> idea of the time differences involved. But there are a lot of other
> factors. An intro book on psychoacoustic might be a good place to start.
>
> Maybe some of the ambisonics experts around here will chip in some 
other

> things...
>
> best,
> Derek
>
> Derek Holzer wrote:
> > What is an imager supposed to do? I've never heard of this effect and
> > Google isn't too helpful on the subject.
> >
> > D.
> >
> > Johannes wrote:
> >> hello people,
> >>
> >> i like to build an imager effect in pd but have some trouble with 
it.
> >> what i´ve acually tryed is very simple: sending one 
signalchannel of

> >> an stereo pair into delaywrite~ (while the other goes directy into
> >> dac~) after 6 - 26 ms later i read out of it with delread~ and is
> >> connected to the second input of dac~.
> >>
> >> is this the right way to build an imager?
> >>
> >> does anybody know the theoretic background of the imager?
> >>
> >> some other ideas how i can do an imager in pd?
> >
> >
>
> --
> ::: derek holzer ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista :::
> http://www.vimeo.com/macumbista :::
> ---Oblique Strategy # 24:
> "Bridges
> -build
> -burn"
>
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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Roman Haefeli]

This is obviously a loop. All this has been said and proposed before in the
thread [1], that has been posted by alex porres a few posts back. Sorry for
not having brought any new perspectives into the discussion, but having just
repeated what has been said already.

The only thing i don't really get: Why seems there some agreement, that
using $0 to get the selector could be confusing?

It would certainly end the discussions about the special (somehow undefined)
state it has now. 

roman
 

[1]: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2009-02/067889.html



Am 13.11.09 10:52 schrieb "Roman Haefeli" unter :

> 
> 
> 
> Am 13.11.09 01:31 schrieb "Phil Stone" unter :
> 
>> Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
>>> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009, Frank Barknecht wrote:
 Alexandre Porres hat gesagt: // Alexandre Porres wrote:
> But I totally disagree, I have been teaching a lot basic Pd around, and
> people always get confused and think they can just throw "$0" in
> messages.
 That may be because your students assume, that $1 in a message box is
 the same
 as $1 in an object box when in fact it's something different.
>>> 
>>> That may be because you assume that objectboxes' $0 must have
>>> something to do with $1,$2,$3,... when in fact it's something different.
>>> 
>>>   $3 stands for ce_argv[2]
>>>   $2 stands for ce_argv[1]
>>>   $1 stands for ce_argv[0]
>>>   $0 stands for ce_dollarzero
>>> 
>>> it's a special case no matter what.
>> 
>> Right.  Which neatly brings the question back around to "why can't $0 be
>> used in message boxes?"  I've said this before (to no avail): it is well
>> understood that $0 has no meaning in *messages* -- however, this is not
>> a good reason why $0 can't be used in *message boxes.*
>> 
>> Since "1024-foo" (where "1024" represents the canvas-identifier), *does*
>> have meaning in messages, why must we jump through (admittedly minor,
>> but still quite annoying) hoops just to get that canvas-identifier into
>> a message?
>> 
>> It probably belongs in the "some things will never change in Pd"
>> category; therefore we must resign ourselves to this discussion
>> re-appearing on a regular basis.
> 
> $0 in messages is only special in the sense, that it has no meaning at all.
> it wouldn't make it less special to use it as a container for canvas
> identifier in message boxes. $-variables in objects have a different meaning
> from $-variables in message boxes, no matter what. I understand, that it
> would make patching often a lot easier, but conceptually it would be
> exceptional to make $0 in message-boxes be replaced by the
> canvas-identifier, while all other $n-variables in message-boxes get
> replaced by the n-th element of the incoming list. I wouldn't want to have
> to pay attention to n in $n in order to determine its behaviour. And i also
> don't support a change that would introduce an inconsistency like that. Why
> don't people fight with the same effort to make $1 in message boxes be
> replaced by the first argument of the patch?
> 
> Personally, i find it 'unecological' to just not use $0 at all in message
> boxes.  I am haven't checked, but i think this idea must have been brought
> up already:
> 
> Let's make $0 in message boxes be replaced by the selector of the incoming
> messages. Currently, it is quite cumbersome to type check a pd message and
> it requires a lot of patching. Using $0 to get the '0th' element of the
> incoming message would be consistent with the way $-variables are currently
> used in message boxes and it would be tremendously useful. Just to
> illustrate the proposed use of $0:
> 
> the incoming message:   the respective $0
> 'hallo velo''hallo'
> 'list mein fahrrad' 'list'
> 'symbol bike'   'symbol'
> '12 twentyfour' 'list'
> '12''float'
> 'bang'  'bang'
> 'bla'   'bla'
> 
> If this could be implemented, any future discussion about why $0 in message
> boxes is not replaced by the canvas identifier would be lapsed.
> 
> roman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] copying one array to another very fast

[João Pais]

I'm sure that in zmoelnig's (?) VASP there's something to do this. but I  
can't look at it myself now.



I want to copy the contents of one array to another as fast as  
possible.  Basically, I'll load a sound file into an array, and fill a  
big buffer by concating that soundfile to the big buffer until its full.


Any ideas?

.hc




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Re: [PD] copying one array to another very fast

[Martin Schied]

Stephen Lucas wrote:
I should have also added that I'm only using this functionality for 
relatively small arrays (500 values), and haven't tried using it for 
arrays which may be holding longish audio samples.
 
-Stephen


On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:56 PM, Stephen Lucas > wrote:


Just putting in my 2cents, but I've been using the bonus feature
of being able to write an array's contents to a text file with a
message and then read it back out to a different array with
another message.



you could use soundfiler too using this approach. but it also has to 
allocate memory twice...
i used this approach to exchange relatively big arrays (more than 50,000 
values) between two instances of pd, using /dev/shm (or any ramdrive) 
which worked fine.


cheers,
Martin

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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Roman Haefeli]

Am 12.11.09 17:21 schrieb "Alexandre Porres" unter :

> But I totally disagree, I have been teaching a lot basic Pd around, and people
> always get confused and think they can just throw "$0" in messages. So I have
> to state and reinforce that there is an exception that it doesn't work on
> messages.

Calling this an exception creates the impression, that $1 in a message is
the same as in an object.

> Without an exception at all, it should be easier to get it, as I
> understand.

Agreed. But currently, the only thing that makes $0 in a message exceptional
is the fact, that it has no meaning at all. Making it be replaced by the
canvas identifier wouldn't make it less exceptional at all.

roman





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Re: [PD] Finding "$0" and dealing with it in messages

[Roman Haefeli]

Am 13.11.09 01:31 schrieb "Phil Stone" unter :

> Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009, Frank Barknecht wrote:
>>> Alexandre Porres hat gesagt: // Alexandre Porres wrote:
 But I totally disagree, I have been teaching a lot basic Pd around, and
 people always get confused and think they can just throw "$0" in
 messages.
>>> That may be because your students assume, that $1 in a message box is
>>> the same
>>> as $1 in an object box when in fact it's something different.
>> 
>> That may be because you assume that objectboxes' $0 must have
>> something to do with $1,$2,$3,... when in fact it's something different.
>> 
>>   $3 stands for ce_argv[2]
>>   $2 stands for ce_argv[1]
>>   $1 stands for ce_argv[0]
>>   $0 stands for ce_dollarzero
>> 
>> it's a special case no matter what.
> 
> Right.  Which neatly brings the question back around to "why can't $0 be
> used in message boxes?"  I've said this before (to no avail): it is well
> understood that $0 has no meaning in *messages* -- however, this is not
> a good reason why $0 can't be used in *message boxes.*
> 
> Since "1024-foo" (where "1024" represents the canvas-identifier), *does*
> have meaning in messages, why must we jump through (admittedly minor,
> but still quite annoying) hoops just to get that canvas-identifier into
> a message?
> 
> It probably belongs in the "some things will never change in Pd"
> category; therefore we must resign ourselves to this discussion
> re-appearing on a regular basis.

$0 in messages is only special in the sense, that it has no meaning at all.
it wouldn't make it less special to use it as a container for canvas
identifier in message boxes. $-variables in objects have a different meaning
from $-variables in message boxes, no matter what. I understand, that it
would make patching often a lot easier, but conceptually it would be
exceptional to make $0 in message-boxes be replaced by the
canvas-identifier, while all other $n-variables in message-boxes get
replaced by the n-th element of the incoming list. I wouldn't want to have
to pay attention to n in $n in order to determine its behaviour. And i also
don't support a change that would introduce an inconsistency like that. Why
don't people fight with the same effort to make $1 in message boxes be
replaced by the first argument of the patch?

Personally, i find it 'unecological' to just not use $0 at all in message
boxes.  I am haven't checked, but i think this idea must have been brought
up already:

Let's make $0 in message boxes be replaced by the selector of the incoming
messages. Currently, it is quite cumbersome to type check a pd message and
it requires a lot of patching. Using $0 to get the '0th' element of the
incoming message would be consistent with the way $-variables are currently
used in message boxes and it would be tremendously useful. Just to
illustrate the proposed use of $0:

the incoming message:   the respective $0
'hallo velo''hallo'
'list mein fahrrad' 'list'
'symbol bike'   'symbol'
'12 twentyfour' 'list'
'12''float'
'bang'  'bang'
'bla'   'bla'

If this could be implemented, any future discussion about why $0 in message
boxes is not replaced by the canvas identifier would be lapsed.

roman






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