Re: [PD] Reverse Kickstarter Update

[Jonathan Wilkes]

On 07/31/2013 11:59 AM, Jamie Bullock wrote:

On 31 Jul 2013, at 16:46, Jonathan Wilkes  wrote:


Actually, I don't think I expressed myself very well as I was arguing the opposite. I think the 
settings should take effect immediately and there shouldn't be an "apply" or 
"connect" or anything button — you just change a setting and that's it — done!

Hence my question about when you would want to "not apply" the settings.

I can't find any other application on my Mac that has an "apply" button in the 
audio prefs dialog, and FWIW, in Integra Live we managed to create an audio prefs without 
an apply step, based on Pd using IOhannes' [mediasettings] externals, so it's definitely 
possible.

My question: are all current (and imaginable future) audio APIs able to handle quick 
changes to the setttings?  Say, if a user toggles "Use Callbacks" three times 
within 500ms and Pd tries to connect to ALSA each time, does ALSA handle that gracefully? 
 (Or whatever backend-- I can't remember if ALSA has that option available atm.)


I think that's a separate issue to whether or not you have an apply button. 
That is, you could have an apply button, but still be in a situation where the 
user can change state faster than the backend can respond. In any case, I think 
adding a UI component the purpose of which is to throttle user input is a bad 
idea. I don't want to be slowed down ;)

I think you should design what you think is the best UI for humans, and then 
figure out how to make the business logic robust enough to handle problematic 
cases like the one you describe above as and when they arise.


One thing I'm not crazy about is that when you get rid of the "Connect" 
button, or whatever we call it, I then have to make the text entry 
widgets (e.g., sample rate) reconnect audio when the entry _loses_ 
focus.  I've never liked that about instantiating Pd objects (for 
example, the more objects in the patch the more anxious I get about 
finding empty canvas spaces to click for instantiation).  Pd patching 
solves this by also instantiating with ctrl-enter so there's visual 
feedback of the dashed line changing to solid (as well as rectangle 
bgcolor changing and xlets appearing). But with a tk entry widget if I 
bind to the enter/return key I don't get visual feedback that the audio 
reconnection has occurred.


This usually isn't a problem on most of the UIs I tend to use-- 
GNU/Linux and Windows usually have an "Apply" type button, and text 
entries on webpages typically post the form on clicking enter so you get 
visual feedback there.  The OSX HIG has nothing to say on the matter, or 
I can't find it if it does.  If OSX folks are used to text entry values 
updating upon losing focus I can revise the dialog to do that.


Bigger than the "Apply" issue: I think I need to add a "Refresh" button 
for the API because AFAICT pd core does not update the GUI when new 
devices are added.  Currently you can just select the API again to 
trigger an update, but I'd like to make it more obvious to the user that 
core pd doesn't report hardware changes unless the GUi asks about them.


-Jonathan



Just my 2¢

All best,

Jamie




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Re: [PD] msgfile and commas

[Max]

beautiful! thanks jack.

Am 31.07.2013 um 18:56 schrieb Jack :

> Le 31/07/2013 11:11, James Dunn a écrit :
>> What about something like this?
>> 
>> Quoth Max, on 30/07/2013 23:57:
>>> another escaping problem:
>>> any idea how the comma could be displayed correctly?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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> 
> Since a while now, [text3d] accepts the 'string' method.
> So it is possible to simplify the patch using this message.
> See example attached.
> ++
> 
> Jack
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] Reverse Kickstarter Update

[Jamie Bullock]

On 31 Jul 2013, at 17:07, Martin Peach  wrote:

>> 
>> I think you should design what you think is the best UI for humans, and then 
>> figure out how to make the business logic robust enough to handle 
>> problematic cases like the one you describe above as and when they arise.
>> 
> 
> What if someone wants to change two or more settings without having them 
> activated until all is correct? On the Mac network settings you have an 
> "apply" button so you can change multiple things without getting stupid error 
> messages because it's only half set up...

That makes sense (kind of) for Network Settings because there's a degree of 
mutual interdependence between the settings — although I'd still prefer no 
"apply" (iOS doesn't have one for example).

But in the case of audio / MIDI prefs the settings are independent once you've 
selected driver and device, so users explicitly wanting _not_ to apply a 
setting immediately seems like an unlikely corner case to me.

Jamie
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Re: [PD] msgfile and commas

[Jack]

Le 31/07/2013 11:11, James Dunn a écrit :
> What about something like this?
>
> Quoth Max, on 30/07/2013 23:57:
>> another escaping problem:
>> any idea how the comma could be displayed correctly?
>>
>>
>>
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Since a while now, [text3d] accepts the 'string' method.
So it is possible to simplify the patch using this message.
See example attached.
++

Jack




comma-msgfile-test.pd
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Re: [PD] Reverse Kickstarter Update

[Martin Peach]

On 2013-07-31 11:59, Jamie Bullock wrote:


On 31 Jul 2013, at 16:46, Jonathan Wilkes  wrote:





Actually, I don't think I expressed myself very well as I was arguing the opposite. I think the 
settings should take effect immediately and there shouldn't be an "apply" or 
"connect" or anything button — you just change a setting and that's it — done!

Hence my question about when you would want to "not apply" the settings.

I can't find any other application on my Mac that has an "apply" button in the 
audio prefs dialog, and FWIW, in Integra Live we managed to create an audio prefs without 
an apply step, based on Pd using IOhannes' [mediasettings] externals, so it's definitely 
possible.


My question: are all current (and imaginable future) audio APIs able to handle quick 
changes to the setttings?  Say, if a user toggles "Use Callbacks" three times 
within 500ms and Pd tries to connect to ALSA each time, does ALSA handle that gracefully? 
 (Or whatever backend-- I can't remember if ALSA has that option available atm.)



I think that's a separate issue to whether or not you have an apply button. 
That is, you could have an apply button, but still be in a situation where the 
user can change state faster than the backend can respond. In any case, I think 
adding a UI component the purpose of which is to throttle user input is a bad 
idea. I don't want to be slowed down ;)

I think you should design what you think is the best UI for humans, and then 
figure out how to make the business logic robust enough to handle problematic 
cases like the one you describe above as and when they arise.



What if someone wants to change two or more settings without having them 
activated until all is correct? On the Mac network settings you have an 
"apply" button so you can change multiple things without getting stupid 
error messages because it's only half set up...


Martin


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Re: [PD] Reverse Kickstarter Update

[Jamie Bullock]

On 31 Jul 2013, at 16:46, Jonathan Wilkes  wrote:

> 
>> 
>> Actually, I don't think I expressed myself very well as I was arguing the 
>> opposite. I think the settings should take effect immediately and there 
>> shouldn't be an "apply" or "connect" or anything button — you just change a 
>> setting and that's it — done!
>> 
>> Hence my question about when you would want to "not apply" the settings.
>> 
>> I can't find any other application on my Mac that has an "apply" button in 
>> the audio prefs dialog, and FWIW, in Integra Live we managed to create an 
>> audio prefs without an apply step, based on Pd using IOhannes' 
>> [mediasettings] externals, so it's definitely possible.
> 
> My question: are all current (and imaginable future) audio APIs able to 
> handle quick changes to the setttings?  Say, if a user toggles "Use 
> Callbacks" three times within 500ms and Pd tries to connect to ALSA each 
> time, does ALSA handle that gracefully?  (Or whatever backend-- I can't 
> remember if ALSA has that option available atm.)
> 

I think that's a separate issue to whether or not you have an apply button. 
That is, you could have an apply button, but still be in a situation where the 
user can change state faster than the backend can respond. In any case, I think 
adding a UI component the purpose of which is to throttle user input is a bad 
idea. I don't want to be slowed down ;)

I think you should design what you think is the best UI for humans, and then 
figure out how to make the business logic robust enough to handle problematic 
cases like the one you describe above as and when they arise.

Just my 2¢

All best,

Jamie
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[PD] pd-gui.tcl not found

[Willy WOLFF]

I have some difficulties to compile Pd-extended-0.43.4
I woold like to write an ebuild for GNU/Gentoo Linux for pd-overlay.

First, i try to compile by hand:

cd pd-extended/pd
./autogen.sh
./configure --enable-jack --prefix=`pwd`/../../install
make
make install

no error in compilation
but when I
cd ../../install/bin
./pd

I have this error:

willy@music-linux-desktop ~/install/bin $ ./pd
disabling real-time priority due to missing pd-watchdog 
(/home/willy/install/bin/../bin/pd-watchdog)
Error in startup script: couldn't read file 
"/home/willy/install/bin/../tcl//pd-gui.tcl": no such file or directory


I found a patch for solve this problem (for 0.43.0) at 
http://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/patches/380/

application of the first patch make some Hunk failed:

willy@music-linux-desktop ~/pd-extended/pd $ patch < 
../../0001-fix-install-targets-add-enable-unix-layout-and-insta.patch
patching file Makefile.am
Hunk #2 FAILED at 50.
1 out of 2 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file Makefile.am.rej
patching file configure.ac
Hunk #2 succeeded at 78 (offset -4 lines).
patching file Makefile.am
Hunk #1 FAILED at 5.
1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file Makefile.am.rej
patching file Makefile.am
Hunk #1 FAILED at 20.
1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file Makefile.am.rej
patching file Makefile.am
Hunk #1 FAILED at 12.
Hunk #2 FAILED at 94.
Hunk #3 FAILED at 109.
Hunk #4 FAILED at 122.
Hunk #5 FAILED at 130.
5 out of 5 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file Makefile.am.rej
patching file pd-gui
patching file Makefile.am
Hunk #1 FAILED at 2.
1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file Makefile.am.rej



So, I try to write new patch for pd 0.43.4
When I do this, I see that "a/extra/Makefile.am" does not exist anymore.

For doing the patch:
diff -Naur pd_original pd_modified > 
pd-extended_0.43.4-fix-install-targets.patch

And for apply after:
willy@music-linux-desktop ~/pd-extended/pd $ patch -p1 < 
../../pd-extended_0.43.4-fix-install-targets.patch
patching file Makefile.am
patching file configure.ac
patching file po/Makefile.am
patching file src/Makefile.am
patching file src/pd-gui
patching file tcl/Makefile.am


Finally we configure with:
./configure --enable-jack --enable-unix-layout --prefix=`pwd`/../../install


But I still have the same problem:

willy@music-linux-desktop ~/install/bin $ ./pd
disabling real-time priority due to missing pd-watchdog 
(/home/willy/install/bin/../bin/pd-watchdog)
Error in startup script: couldn't read file 
"/home/willy/install/bin/../tcl//pd-gui.tcl": no such file or directory






Did I forget something??



The patch
--
diff -Naur pd_original/Makefile.am pd_modified/Makefile.am
--- pd_original/Makefile.am 2013-01-19 21:02:04.0 +0100
+++ pd_modified/Makefile.am 2013-07-31 16:10:20.582094468 +0200
@@ -2,7 +2,7 @@
 ACLOCAL_AMFLAGS =  -I m4/generated -I m4

 CFLAGS += @DEFS@
-EXTRA_SUBDIRS =
+EXTRA_SUBDIRS =

 # pkg-config support
 pkgconfigdir = $(libdir)/pkgconfig
@@ -29,15 +29,12 @@
 # subdirs that are always included in the dist, etc.
 DIST_SUBDIRS = asio man po portaudio portmidi src tcl

-BUILT_SOURCES =
+BUILT_SOURCES =
 if MSGFMT
 BUILT_SOURCES += locales
 endif

-## FIXXXME
-## $(pkglibdir) is used throughout the other Makefile.amS
-##   simply ignoring the special case for other OSs...
-if LINUX
+if UNIX_LAYOUT
 libpddir = $(pkglibdir)
 else
 libpddir = $(prefix)
@@ -54,6 +51,11 @@
$(INSTALL) -d $(DESTDIR)$(libpddir)/extra
$(INSTALL_DATA) extra/output~.pd extra/output~-help.pd 
$(DESTDIR)$(libpddir)/extra
$(INSTALL) -d $(DESTDIR)$(libpddir)/startup
+if UNIX_LAYOUT
+# so pd-gui.tcl can find ../bin/pd and pd can find pd-watchdog
+   $(INSTALL) -d $(DESTDIR)$(pkglibdir)
+   $(LN_S) $(prefix)/bin $(DESTDIR)$(pkglibdir)/bin
+endif

 # this is at the end because its lng
 # these files go into libpddir defined above
diff -Naur pd_original/configure.ac pd_modified/configure.ac
--- pd_original/configure.ac2013-01-19 21:02:04.0 +0100
+++ pd_modified/configure.ac2013-07-31 16:11:50.228098604 +0200
@@ -45,6 +45,10 @@
EXTERNAL_CFLAGS="-fPIC"
EXTERNAL_LDFLAGS="-Wl,--export-dynamic -shared -fPIC"
EXTERNAL_EXTENSION=pd_linux
+   # on GNU/Linux use the complicated, UNIX-style install by default
+   if test -z $unix_layout; then
+   unix_layout=yes
+   fi
;;
 *mingw*)
WINDOWS=yes
@@ -74,6 +78,12 @@
  LDFLAGS="${LDFLAGS} ${ARCH_LDFLAGS}"
 fi

+AC_ARG_ENABLE([unix_layout],
+   [AS_HELP_STRING([--enable-unix-layout],
+   [use the "complicated", UNIX-style directory layout for 
installing the build products using 'make install'])],
+   [unix_layout=$enableval])
+AM_CONDITIONAL(UNIX_LAYOUT, test x$unix_layout = xyes)
+
 AM_CONDITIONAL(ANDROID, test x$ANDROID = xyes)
 AM_CONDITIONAL(IPHONEOS, test x$IPHONEOS = xyes)
 AM_CONDITIONAL(LINUX, test x$LINUX = xyes)
@@ -121,7 +131,7 @@

 AC_HEADER_

Re: [PD] Reverse Kickstarter Update

[Jonathan Wilkes]

On 07/31/2013 11:22 AM, Jamie Bullock wrote:


On 31 Jul 2013, at 16:11, Dan Wilcox > wrote:




On Jul 31, 2013, at 6:00 AM, pd-list-requ...@iem.at 
 wrote:


At the very least, I think "Connect" is a bit confusing. It 
implies that there can be an unconnected state when the main 
purpose of the dialog is managing which things are connected. 
Maybe "Apply Settings", "Update Connection Settings", or even 
"Update", etc is better.


Ok.  I think "Update" or "Update Connection Settings" is probably best.


When would a user want to change a setting but not "apply"? Surely 
you want the actual settings in the backend to always reflect the 
current state of the preferences dialog and vice versa.


best,

Jamie


I think you misunderstand me. Of course the changes should be 
applied, I'm just saying I thought the "Connect" button label was a 
little confusing. "Apply" would work as well in this case, but I 
think something like "Update Connection Settings" etc is more 
verbose, but also more clear.


What I meant by not having an apply button a few posts ago, was that 
in most Mac apps you don't have a 2 step process to change settings 
aka change then apply. When you change a setting that's it, it's both 
changed and updated at the same time. I do agree with Jonathan that, 
in this case, it makes sense to have a 2 step process. I was mainly 
pointing out I thought the labeling could be more clear.


Actually, I don't think I expressed myself very well as I was arguing 
the opposite. I think the settings should take effect immediately and 
there shouldn't be an "apply" or "connect" or anything button --- you 
just change a setting and that's it --- done!


Hence my question about when you would want to "not apply" the settings.

I can't find any other application on my Mac that has an "apply" 
button in the audio prefs dialog, and FWIW, in Integra Live we managed 
to create an audio prefs without an apply step, based on Pd using 
IOhannes' [mediasettings] externals, so it's definitely possible.


My question: are all current (and imaginable future) audio APIs able to 
handle quick changes to the setttings?  Say, if a user toggles "Use 
Callbacks" three times within 500ms and Pd tries to connect to ALSA each 
time, does ALSA handle that gracefully?  (Or whatever backend-- I can't 
remember if ALSA has that option available atm.)


-Jonathan



best,

Jamie






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Re: [PD] Reverse Kickstarter Update

[Dan Wilcox]

On Jul 31, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Jamie Bullock  wrote:

> 
> On 31 Jul 2013, at 16:11, Dan Wilcox  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Jul 31, 2013, at 6:00 AM, pd-list-requ...@iem.at wrote:
>> 
> At the very least, I think "Connect" is a bit confusing. It implies that 
> there can be an unconnected state when the main purpose of the dialog is 
> managing which things are connected. Maybe "Apply Settings", "Update 
> Connection Settings", or even "Update", etc is better.
 
 Ok.  I think "Update" or "Update Connection Settings" is probably best.
>>> 
>>> When would a user want to change a setting but not "apply"? Surely you want 
>>> the actual settings in the backend to always reflect the current state of 
>>> the preferences dialog and vice versa.
>>> 
>>> best,
>>> 
>>> Jamie
>> 
>> I think you misunderstand me. Of course the changes should be applied, I'm 
>> just saying I thought the "Connect" button label was a little confusing. 
>> "Apply" would work as well in this case, but I think something like "Update 
>> Connection Settings" etc is more verbose, but also more clear.
>> 
>> What I meant by not having an apply button a few posts ago, was that in most 
>> Mac apps you don't have a 2 step process to change settings aka change then 
>> apply. When you change a setting that's it, it's both changed and updated at 
>> the same time. I do agree with Jonathan that, in this case, it makes sense 
>> to have a 2 step process. I was mainly pointing out I thought the labeling 
>> could be more clear.
> 
> Actually, I don't think I expressed myself very well as I was arguing the 
> opposite. I think the settings should take effect immediately and there 
> shouldn't be an "apply" or "connect" or anything button — you just change a 
> setting and that's it — done!
> 
> Hence my question about when you would want to "not apply" the settings.
> 
> I can't find any other application on my Mac that has an "apply" button in 
> the audio prefs dialog, and FWIW, in Integra Live we managed to create an 
> audio prefs without an apply step, based on Pd using IOhannes' 
> [mediasettings] externals, so it's definitely possible.

Ah ok. Then yeah, we both agree. The issue then is really about being cross 
platform. Windows and Linux use the change/apply metaphor, so I figured it 
probably doesn't make sense to ask Jonathan to code a separate Mac-only dialog.


Dan Wilcox
@danomatika
danomatika.com
robotcowboy.com





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Re: [PD] Reverse Kickstarter Update

[Jamie Bullock]

On 31 Jul 2013, at 16:11, Dan Wilcox  wrote:

> 
> On Jul 31, 2013, at 6:00 AM, pd-list-requ...@iem.at wrote:
> 
 At the very least, I think "Connect" is a bit confusing. It implies that 
 there can be an unconnected state when the main purpose of the dialog is 
 managing which things are connected. Maybe "Apply Settings", "Update 
 Connection Settings", or even "Update", etc is better.
>>> 
>>> Ok.  I think "Update" or "Update Connection Settings" is probably best.
>> 
>> When would a user want to change a setting but not "apply"? Surely you want 
>> the actual settings in the backend to always reflect the current state of 
>> the preferences dialog and vice versa.
>> 
>> best,
>> 
>> Jamie
> 
> I think you misunderstand me. Of course the changes should be applied, I'm 
> just saying I thought the "Connect" button label was a little confusing. 
> "Apply" would work as well in this case, but I think something like "Update 
> Connection Settings" etc is more verbose, but also more clear.
> 
> What I meant by not having an apply button a few posts ago, was that in most 
> Mac apps you don't have a 2 step process to change settings aka change then 
> apply. When you change a setting that's it, it's both changed and updated at 
> the same time. I do agree with Jonathan that, in this case, it makes sense to 
> have a 2 step process. I was mainly pointing out I thought the labeling could 
> be more clear.

Actually, I don't think I expressed myself very well as I was arguing the 
opposite. I think the settings should take effect immediately and there 
shouldn't be an "apply" or "connect" or anything button — you just change a 
setting and that's it — done!

Hence my question about when you would want to "not apply" the settings.

I can't find any other application on my Mac that has an "apply" button in the 
audio prefs dialog, and FWIW, in Integra Live we managed to create an audio 
prefs without an apply step, based on Pd using IOhannes' [mediasettings] 
externals, so it's definitely possible.

best,

Jamie




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Re: [PD] Reverse Kickstarter Update

[Dan Wilcox]

On Jul 31, 2013, at 6:00 AM, pd-list-requ...@iem.at wrote:

>>> At the very least, I think "Connect" is a bit confusing. It implies that 
>>> there can be an unconnected state when the main purpose of the dialog is 
>>> managing which things are connected. Maybe "Apply Settings", "Update 
>>> Connection Settings", or even "Update", etc is better.
>> 
>> Ok.  I think "Update" or "Update Connection Settings" is probably best.
> 
> When would a user want to change a setting but not "apply"? Surely you want 
> the actual settings in the backend to always reflect the current state of the 
> preferences dialog and vice versa.
> 
> best,
> 
> Jamie

I think you misunderstand me. Of course the changes should be applied, I'm just 
saying I thought the "Connect" button label was a little confusing. "Apply" 
would work as well in this case, but I think something like "Update Connection 
Settings" etc is more verbose, but also more clear.

What I meant by not having an apply button a few posts ago, was that in most 
Mac apps you don't have a 2 step process to change settings aka change then 
apply. When you change a setting that's it, it's both changed and updated at 
the same time. I do agree with Jonathan that, in this case, it makes sense to 
have a 2 step process. I was mainly pointing out I thought the labeling could 
be more clear.


Dan Wilcox
@danomatika
danomatika.com
robotcowboy.com





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Re: [PD] msgfile and commas

[Max]

oh yes! [any2bytes] to my rescue.
thanks!
the only thing more elegant would be a proper escaping mechanism in Pd. ;)

Am 31.07.2013 um 11:11 schrieb James Dunn :

> What about something like this?
> 
> Quoth Max, on 30/07/2013 23:57:
>> another escaping problem:
>> any idea how the comma could be displayed correctly?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> 
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>> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
> 
> 


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Re: [PD] msgfile and commas

[James Dunn]

What about something like this?

Quoth Max, on 30/07/2013 23:57:

another escaping problem:
any idea how the comma could be displayed correctly?



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#N canvas 691 172 288 432 10;
#X obj 64 169 zexy/msgfile;
#X msg 64 143 read test-text.txt cr \, bang;
#X obj 24 259 text3d;
#X obj 24 67 gemwin;
#X msg 36 45 0 \, destroy;
#X obj 24 94 gemhead;
#X obj 64 119 loadbang;
#X msg 24 24 dimen 450 200 \, FSAA 4 \, create \, 1;
#X obj 103 224 moocow/any2bytes;
#X obj 103 244 list-drip;
#X obj 103 268 float2ascii;
#X obj 193 289 t l;
#X obj 82 314 list;
#X obj 103 289 list prepend;
#X obj 64 201 t b b a;
#X obj 82 377 l2s;
#X msg 97 357 symbol;
#X obj 97 337 loadbang;
#X connect 0 0 14 0;
#X connect 1 0 0 0;
#X connect 4 0 3 0;
#X connect 5 0 2 0;
#X connect 6 0 1 0;
#X connect 7 0 3 0;
#X connect 8 0 9 0;
#X connect 9 0 10 0;
#X connect 10 0 13 0;
#X connect 11 0 13 1;
#X connect 12 0 15 0;
#X connect 13 0 11 0;
#X connect 13 0 12 1;
#X connect 14 0 13 1;
#X connect 14 1 12 0;
#X connect 14 2 8 0;
#X connect 15 0 2 0;
#X connect 16 0 15 1;
#X connect 17 0 16 0;
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Re: [PD] Reverse Kickstarter Update

[Jamie Bullock]

On 30 Jul 2013, at 21:56, Jonathan Wilkes  wrote:

>> 
>> At the very least, I think "Connect" is a bit confusing. It implies that 
>> there can be an unconnected state when the main purpose of the dialog is 
>> managing which things are connected. Maybe "Apply Settings", "Update 
>> Connection Settings", or even "Update", etc is better.
> 
> Ok.  I think "Update" or "Update Connection Settings" is probably best.

When would a user want to change a setting but not "apply"? Surely you want the 
actual settings in the backend to always reflect the current state of the 
preferences dialog and vice versa.

best,

Jamie
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