Re: [PD] confused about $1 in messages
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-01-21 22:35, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: On 01/21/2014 04:02 AM, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote: On 01/20/2014 10:01 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: It might help some if the selector inside a message box were visually distinct from the rest of the message. +1 You could also have different colors for built-ins vs. custom selectors. -1 Hm... care to explain your votes? Is it the word colors that got a -1, or the idea of visually distinguishing between the two groups? the latter. how the selector differs from the atoms should be a matter of user-definable preferences. and i'd like to have a way to distinguish atoms (with potential whitespace characters) from the whitespace atom-separator. fgamsdr IOhannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJS34aeAAoJELZQGcR/ejb4TO0P/0Y3xEjCf9z8XZtlwGc99vgp 58fXtG5jKEEIdmVcHonhQwFpXAza7B+3Zb+jAe30MazZ5s3GldT7MPnoCGTkCgL+ 8j4tZwoSVAzcwMC1eE+383F7yhu1hLj4jddWk0V7SQj/NH6848MG/dqzUnHQWEpJ 52cfDK1yg5B4d1WLlCYUaA3JE1oXwGasVkmW4wIMn+u1+Y05JJDq4x7UuTt3oE12 6nPrgQ/WPes8kWM4vO0+Yd4Kg80gLqSI0+ZxMVp6X/cj4jsQejsj5coq8AG0vxNe l3zEdDXqAwHR+v6MbGy/IJhm9rs+pq55Eye5NMY/l9DByNODK+aJN/WouMhTJRQN H5WumjsGl0dzqIXHb73bTbO82f5EpL36gXL3GNSmHe8rfYd6/6Ff1kHOdKM8rEt7 a1MSyMtblchntflviwdHUe1JQF5tuQqT1JapDZipBIfPd5cYGAHGVtBVK7hMMM7F Rc1fZNNjG7RrFaXW3Ks5I0sdvbCTniyK28AaGoqAGflXRgfZOJombqfSGu11iE4H mk3VnQOe9hDvZ88e9p60VQ1VVkgbTd2SYRcyzrInipfTprbtzJ5hruSh4xLPaDyF 0QOZ6qoe/lH+t5mh9VHu3YspOUej6QQVc/enhpf3dnizPrY7hkl+AxaCKsf4fnBQ JBf/NQpy0TSc27nhB4Um =BzNs -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] confused about $1 in messages
On 01/20/2014 10:01 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: It might help some if the selector inside a message box were visually distinct from the rest of the message. +1 You could also have different colors for built-ins vs. custom selectors. -1 gfmadsr IOhannes signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] confused about $1 in messages
On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 7:30 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm not sure why the people replying to you are feigning ignorance on how this situation could possibly be confusing. I'm not aware of feigning or having feigned ignorance. I was just pointing out about the same as you did, although I must say that your explanation was a bit more elaborate. Where I used the word indicator I meant selector of course. -- Funs ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] confused about $1 in messages
On 01/21/2014 04:02 AM, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote: On 01/20/2014 10:01 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: It might help some if the selector inside a message box were visually distinct from the rest of the message. +1 You could also have different colors for built-ins vs. custom selectors. -1 Hm... care to explain your votes? Is it the word colors that got a -1, or the idea of visually distinguishing between the two groups? -Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] confused about $1 in messages
On 01/21/2014 11:07 AM, Funs Seelen wrote: On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 7:30 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com mailto:jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm not sure why the people replying to you are feigning ignorance on how this situation could possibly be confusing. I'm not aware of feigning or having feigned ignorance. Sorry, I didn't see your reply there when I wrote that, just Jack's and IOhannes'. I have a hard time believing they were unable to use their knowledge of Pd to deduce with great certainty that the OP thought [one two three([$1 $2([print] would output one two. In fact when I looked back at rolf's ASCII art and did the data flow in my head my brain initially flashed one two erroneously. -Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] confused about $1 in messages
dear list, i'm confused about the $1 replacement in messages. [one two three( |\ | \ | [list split 1] | / | / |/ | / | [; [this $1 $2( [r this] | [print this] output: this: two three this: two three why? rolf ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] confused about $1 in messages
Hi Rolf, Try prepending the word list to make it a list . I assume $1 skips the first word as an indicator (if not a number; e.g. float, symbol, list) , while [list split] automatically makes lists and symbols out of the input. On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 3:34 PM, ro...@dds.nl wrote: output: this: two three this: two three I think your output was just a little different: this: two three this: list two three It will become ... this: one two this: list two three ... when you change your three words to a list like this: [list one two three( Regards, Funs ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] confused about $1 in messages
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-01-20 15:34, ro...@dds.nl wrote: dear list, i'm confused about the $1 replacement in messages. [one two three( |\ | \ | [list split 1] | / | / |/ | / | [; [this $1 $2( [r this] | [print this] output: this: two three this: two three why? why not? what did you expect? fgamsdr IOhannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJS3UUnAAoJELZQGcR/ejb4/wsP/17YCnqNwVSdHsgxaOkeIkCV CeMIUqEfL+OvlwwFg8f/V68w84g9vDx05ItXb8z5QuwxC/VcYhSx7bP9858buNbE n+bBlP4q46tFmhRGgixdvqAEYOFxlPmbVJ2YYBsodJpJ+lP8oZrdRYXjijwrCLXP K4BlmfBvsMS38CM6xfiIzHa86Y6JUJMbgkFTIEej6pMjju6PTQwqGK2oLN4DpzIk TkhCLh3k5uA2MluJn4m6Ds+4cqtt02/atFom9t3vkbVDeJAiwghyWx1vVcNZwJcm EuMjV9rq+zjax132Peuwu/juLTCoFVIP7hWFg2fcqGq3dVBqrZb3XDEhFWxYuIWC EO5FcxrQpaFpVV88np1nxy2hk0OoUZVVIg+ovTuZpojT1rCIN4nEud+RPd9wpWjO WFpsiOtwNORgRW9GVFCabtXnb6vYWriOPXui2KAZv8NHsXjetUDbiuQdWckM3pu5 qXYEbPseikffJJYEBm4JmFxesBINaX0d1w8COVWK7qQedauwlOKV8x/8OxidtP7+ 0s+W3W5yVffRn42IlfEfWkwi4PMNO2yTDKCEnlabaJAwPTEJcwIYf1VfdkWQDjlt kXn68uSJd6n5MijLqC+zmKJLU2xQlWHohrWPFhdZ+ve9uZSHcQbhCo59DyDcTlHl n84EKeau8adPNblX23oJ =ikUG -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] confused about $1 in messages
Le 20/01/2014 15:34, ro...@dds.nl a écrit : dear list, i'm confused about the $1 replacement in messages. [one two three( |\ | \ | [list split 1] | / | / |/ | / | [; [this $1 $2( [r this] | [print this] output: this: two three this: two three why? rolf ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list [one two three( is not a list. [list one two three( is a list. So what you get is *maybe* the normal behavior ? But, yep, what did you expect ? ++ Jack ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] confused about $1 in messages
I'm not sure why the people replying to you are feigning ignorance on how this situation could possibly be confusing. You're chopping off the word one with [list split] and leaving it intact on the other message; yet the dollarsign substitution gives you the same output in both cases. Furthermore, if you use [list length] on each message you will find the two message have a different number of elements. What you don't see, however, is that [list] objects like [list split] interpret incoming messages as list messages-- that is, they add the word list to the beginning of the message. Also, they prepend a list selector to the messages they send out (except for [list trim], of course). But we're not done. The selectors list, float, and symbol are special and do not get counted as elements with [list length]. Yet inside message boxes they _do_ get counted as the selector (i.e., the very first symbol atom in a message) when variable substitution is involved. Once you know those two details it gets a little easier to grasp. This is all further complicated by the fact that there is no dollarsign variable in Pd that can get the selector of an incoming message. So for list two three you can't get list with a dollarsign variable, and likewise for one two three you can't get one with a dollarsign variable. That's a real sticking point for new users, especially because they've no doubt already seen how seamlessly everything works when only numbers are involved. So I'd suggest everyone have a look at the help patch for [list], especially the subpatch labeled [pd about-lists]. In it, Miller Puckette-- the guy who designed and implemented this part of the language-- describes what is happening in some detail. In his explanation he questions his own design, even going so far as calling the very distinction you point out here ugly. It's not the easiest part of Pd to understand, and it's the reason why you're having a problem in the patch example you gave. But if you learn to use the [list] family objects when dealing with data messages it can makes things a lot easier. Since you know those objects will output messages with a list selector, then for everything other than a bang you're guaranteed that [$1( will work properly. -Jonathan On Monday, January 20, 2014 11:33 AM, Jack j...@rybn.org wrote: Le 20/01/2014 15:34, ro...@dds.nl a écrit : dear list, i'm confused about the $1 replacement in messages. [one two three( |\ | \ | [list split 1] | / | / | / | / | [; [this $1 $2( [r this] | [print this] output: this: two three this: two three why? rolf ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list [one two three( is not a list. [list one two three( is a list. So what you get is *maybe* the normal behavior ? But, yep, what did you expect ? ++ Jack ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] confused about $1 in messages
Thanks Jonathan for the detailed response and pointer to the docs. As a longtime (but somewhat sporadic) PD user this list behavior still becomes a bit fuzzy to me sometimes, and this helps make it much more clear. -s On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm not sure why the people replying to you are feigning ignorance on how this situation could possibly be confusing. You're chopping off the word one with [list split] and leaving it intact on the other message; yet the dollarsign substitution gives you the same output in both cases. Furthermore, if you use [list length] on each message you will find the two message have a different number of elements. What you don't see, however, is that [list] objects like [list split] interpret incoming messages as list messages-- that is, they add the word list to the beginning of the message. Also, they prepend a list selector to the messages they send out (except for [list trim], of course). But we're not done. The selectors list, float, and symbol are special and do not get counted as elements with [list length]. Yet inside message boxes they _do_ get counted as the selector (i.e., the very first symbol atom in a message) when variable substitution is involved. Once you know those two details it gets a little easier to grasp. This is all further complicated by the fact that there is no dollarsign variable in Pd that can get the selector of an incoming message. So for list two three you can't get list with a dollarsign variable, and likewise for one two three you can't get one with a dollarsign variable. That's a real sticking point for new users, especially because they've no doubt already seen how seamlessly everything works when only numbers are involved. So I'd suggest everyone have a look at the help patch for [list], especially the subpatch labeled [pd about-lists]. In it, Miller Puckette-- the guy who designed and implemented this part of the language-- describes what is happening in some detail. In his explanation he questions his own design, even going so far as calling the very distinction you point out here ugly. It's not the easiest part of Pd to understand, and it's the reason why you're having a problem in the patch example you gave. But if you learn to use the [list] family objects when dealing with data messages it can makes things a lot easier. Since you know those objects will output messages with a list selector, then for everything other than a bang you're guaranteed that [$1( will work properly. -Jonathan On Monday, January 20, 2014 11:33 AM, Jack j...@rybn.org wrote: Le 20/01/2014 15:34, ro...@dds.nl a écrit : dear list, i'm confused about the $1 replacement in messages. [one two three( |\ | \ | [list split 1] | / |/ |/ | / | [; [this $1 $2( [r this] | [print this] output: this: two three this: two three why? rolf ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list [one two three( is not a list. [list one two three( is a list. So what you get is *maybe* the normal behavior ? But, yep, what did you expect ? ++ Jack ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] confused about $1 in messages
On 01/20/2014 02:07 PM, Spencer Russell wrote: Thanks Jonathan for the detailed response and pointer to the docs. As a longtime (but somewhat sporadic) PD user this list behavior still becomes a bit fuzzy to me sometimes, and this helps make it much more clear. -s It might help some if the selector inside a message box were visually distinct from the rest of the message. Like the little tag widget in QT that's often used in email apps to show someone's nickname and hide the addy. It's basically a rounded rectangle in a pastel color around some text. You could also have different colors for built-ins vs. custom selectors. -Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
