Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[enrike]

I am doing *very* short introductions to PD to art students who are 
very far from being technical. In that context I noticed that the less 
connections the better. I basically provide them with ready to use 
examples and a basic understanding of how to tweak them.



I don't blame anyone having trouble to creating box and connecting them, 
but I think pd is not the right tools for someone in this situation.

there are lot's of tools and programming language available...


nothing I have checked so far does fulfil the requirements here. thats 
why I introduce to PD, but I not teach PD. I just point them into the 
tool and allow them to know the basic functions. If anyone wants to 
learn it I point into vanilla and the tutorials. I would love to be able 
to properly teach them, but it is impossible given the student's 
background, the context and the time limits


if you have some suggestion about some tool to replace PD please let me 
know.


thanks

enrike

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Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[Jack]

Le 16/10/2017 à 17:03, cyrille henry a écrit :
> 
> 
> Le 16/10/2017 à 13:49, enrike a écrit :
> 
>> I am doing *very* short introductions to PD to art students who are
>> very far from being technical. In that context I noticed that the less
>> connections the better. I basically provide them with ready to use
>> examples and a basic understanding of how to tweak them.
> 
> 
> I don't blame anyone having trouble to creating box and connecting them,
> but I think pd is not the right tools for someone in this situation.
> there are lot's of tools and programming language available...
> 
> My point of view is that pd is not simple. You should not lie to your
> student saying it's simple. They will drop pd when they realize the
> truth. Teaching the vanilla way is, imo, the best way to teach pd.
> 
> In your situation, i'll made everything as subpatch, and sub sub patch:
> if you look at the surface, you see only the algorithm and few
> connections. If you go deeper, you can understand how things are made,
> and how 2 or 3 object can create a counter.
> 
> Also, since all student will have different version of pd installed on
> there computer, the vanilla way it the only one that will work for all.
> And learning to make clean and well organized code is also very
> important : it's easier to debug, to understand etc.

... and to read your own patch 3 days later ! ;)

With my experience in teaching Pd, I can confirm what Cyrille wrote :

- Pd Vanilla is the best way because you can share the code between all
platforms using compatible version of Pd.
- make a good presentation with comment using subpatch or abstractions
as functions/objects to organize things.
- you have to learn the basics of math and how to write an algorithm.
- etc.

You can find recommandations on the web to write a 'good/nice' code and
what you need for this. Learning a programming language is not easy, I
don't know who proclaims this ?
++

Jack


> 
> cheers
> c
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[cyrille henry]

Le 16/10/2017 à 13:49, enrike a écrit :


I am doing *very* short introductions to PD to art students who are very far 
from being technical. In that context I noticed that the less connections the 
better. I basically provide them with ready to use examples and a basic 
understanding of how to tweak them.



I don't blame anyone having trouble to creating box and connecting them, but I 
think pd is not the right tools for someone in this situation.
there are lot's of tools and programming language available...

My point of view is that pd is not simple. You should not lie to your student 
saying it's simple. They will drop pd when they realize the truth. Teaching the 
vanilla way is, imo, the best way to teach pd.

In your situation, i'll made everything as subpatch, and sub sub patch:
if you look at the surface, you see only the algorithm and few connections. If 
you go deeper, you can understand how things are made, and how 2 or 3 object 
can create a counter.

Also, since all student will have different version of pd installed on there 
computer, the vanilla way it the only one that will work for all.
And learning to make clean and well organized code is also very important : 
it's easier to debug, to understand etc.

cheers
c



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Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

On 10/16/2017 01:49 PM, enrike wrote:
> 
> I could have created a simple abstraction encapsulating the structure
> but since the number of outputs must be dynamically created on load I am
> not sure about how to do it. I also thought it might be already
> something out there, I did not want to reinvent the wheel
> 

the dynamic part can be solved easily, by splitting the functionality
into two parts: a counter (for which you can provide an pre-made
abstraction to your students), and a dispatcher (which is a simple
[route 0 1 2 3 ...])

so your students would need to create two objects instead of one (with a
single connection between the two).

[bang(
|
[counter 5]
|
[route 0 1 2 3 4]
|   |   |   |   |

this should be doable (from a pedagogical pov).

this also has the added bonus that you can easily exchange the simple
counting with higher maths, like [random 5].

gdsaf
IOhannes



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Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[enrike]

or., 2017.eko urrren 13a 17:13(e)an, IOhannes m zmölnig igorleak idatzi 
zuen:

On 10/13/2017 11:06 AM, enrike wrote:

I know, but I just wanted to know if there something that does the same
job but within a single object


why?
what does it buy you? what does it cost you?


sorry I did not provide any context and I guess it is difficult to 
understand why would anyone want to do such a trivial thing.


I am doing *very* short introductions to PD to art students who are very 
far from being technical. In that context I noticed that the less 
connections the better. I basically provide them with ready to use 
examples and a basic understanding of how to tweak them.


I could have created a simple abstraction encapsulating the structure 
but since the number of outputs must be dynamically created on load I am 
not sure about how to do it. I also thought it might be already 
something out there, I did not want to reinvent the wheel


enrike

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Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[oliver]

sorry, sent too fast ;-)


Matt Davey wrote:
> if you use an external to do something simple like this, you are a 
muppet.



i wouldn't do that myself,
but i would be proud to do the swedish chef one time !

cheers

oliver





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Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[Christof Ressi]

> from the idea that a c-compiled external is better/faster/less 
> CPU-expensive etc. than a self-made abstraction.

generally that's true but in most cases it doesn't matter that much, especially 
for control objects since they rarely are the bottleneck of your patch. also 
there's a saying: "premature optimization is the root of all evil".

however, there are times where it can really matter, mostly in the signal 
domain. if you have lots of primitive signal objects (like [*~], [+~] etc.) 
what happens is that for each operation on a signal vector you call a perform 
routine and loop over all samples (again and again). if you can put everything 
inside one big loop, the C compiler has a chance to optimize quite a lot. 
sometimes the external version would only need half the CPU or less, but your 
mileage may vary. only do it if you need to squeeze as much performance out of 
your patch as possible - and profile first!

Christof



> Gesendet: Freitag, 13. Oktober 2017 um 18:52 Uhr
> Von: oliver 
> An: pd-l...@mail.iem.at
> Betreff: Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a 
> counter?
>
> IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> > On 10/13/2017 11:06 AM, enrike wrote:
> >> I know, but I just wanted to know if there something that does the same
> >> job but within a single object
> >
> > why?
> > what does it buy you? what does it cost you?
> 
> that's an interesting issue in general:
> 
> i guess the quest for a "single object" to perform a specific task stems 
> from the idea that a c-compiled external is better/faster/less 
> CPU-expensive etc. than a self-made abstraction.
> 
> is this even true for PD ?
> 
> (a long time ago i heard that this was true for MAX, but never quite 
> figured out why)
> 
> or does it depend on the complexity/size of the task ?
> 
> 
> would be great to hear an expert's opinion on that, as i often find 
> myself caught in the same thinking (looking for externals instead of 
> patching an abstraction), maybe totally unnecessary ...
> 
> thanks for all insights !
> 
> 
> 
> oliver
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

There's also the point and case of just being convenient and being "right
there"...

meaning that "by an external", the idea is "one external from the pd
extended libraries we have", which, let's face it, is how most people got
to know Pd.

2017-10-13 13:52 GMT-03:00 oliver :

> IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
>
>> On 10/13/2017 11:06 AM, enrike wrote:
>>
>>> I know, but I just wanted to know if there something that does the same
>>> job but within a single object
>>>
>>
>> why?
>> what does it buy you? what does it cost you?
>>
>
> that's an interesting issue in general:
>
> i guess the quest for a "single object" to perform a specific task stems
> from the idea that a c-compiled external is better/faster/less
> CPU-expensive etc. than a self-made abstraction.
>
> is this even true for PD ?
>
> (a long time ago i heard that this was true for MAX, but never quite
> figured out why)
>
> or does it depend on the complexity/size of the task ?
>
>
> would be great to hear an expert's opinion on that, as i often find myself
> caught in the same thinking (looking for externals instead of patching an
> abstraction), maybe totally unnecessary ...
>
> thanks for all insights !
>
>
>
> oliver
>
>
>
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Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[Matt Davey]

if you use an external to do something simple like this, you are a muppet.
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Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[Peter P.]

* oliver  [2017-10-13 18:52]:
> IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> > On 10/13/2017 11:06 AM, enrike wrote:
> > > I know, but I just wanted to know if there something that does the same
> > > job but within a single object
> > 
> > why?
> > what does it buy you? what does it cost you?
> 
> that's an interesting issue in general:
> 
> i guess the quest for a "single object" to perform a specific task stems
> from the idea that a c-compiled external is better/faster/less CPU-expensive
> etc. than a self-made abstraction.
> 
> is this even true for PD ?
> 
> (a long time ago i heard that this was true for MAX, but never quite figured
> out why)
> 
> or does it depend on the complexity/size of the task ?
> 
> 
> would be great to hear an expert's opinion on that, as i often find myself
> caught in the same thinking (looking for externals instead of patching an
> abstraction), maybe totally unnecessary ...
I am no expert, but go the other route: I try to avoid externals like
the plague and try to solve everything with abstractions where possible.
It will make my patches run in ten years on all operating systems (I
hope). Unless I notice a performance problem...

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Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[oliver]

IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:

On 10/13/2017 11:06 AM, enrike wrote:

I know, but I just wanted to know if there something that does the same
job but within a single object


why?
what does it buy you? what does it cost you?


that's an interesting issue in general:

i guess the quest for a "single object" to perform a specific task stems 
from the idea that a c-compiled external is better/faster/less 
CPU-expensive etc. than a self-made abstraction.


is this even true for PD ?

(a long time ago i heard that this was true for MAX, but never quite 
figured out why)


or does it depend on the complexity/size of the task ?


would be great to hear an expert's opinion on that, as i often find 
myself caught in the same thinking (looking for externals instead of 
patching an abstraction), maybe totally unnecessary ...


thanks for all insights !



oliver


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Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

On 10/13/2017 11:06 AM, enrike wrote:
> I know, but I just wanted to know if there something that does the same
> job but within a single object

why?
what does it buy you? what does it cost you?

gfmasrd
IOhannes



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Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[enrike]

ok, yes this is almost what I was looking for


or., 2017.eko urrren 13a 17:02(e)an, Alexandre Torres Porres igorleak 
idatzi zuen:

you could use cyclone/cycle for something like that

2017-10-13 6:27 GMT-03:00 Jean-Marie Adrien >:


gate 5 ?
basically same as above….
 > Le 13 oct. 2017 à 11:06, enrike > a écrit :
 >
 > I know, but I just wanted to know if there something that does
the same job but within a single object
 >
 >
 > or., 2017.eko urrren 13a 10:31(e)an, cyrille henry igorleak
idatzi zuen:
 >> You have the solution in your mail :
 >> you can make a counter with [f] [+ 1] and [% 5] then a [select 0
1 2 3 4] will do what you want.
 >> why do you need something else?
 >> cheers
 >> c
 >> Le 13/10/2017 à 10:17, enrike a écrit :
 >>> hi
 >>>
 >>> sorry for poor email title, is there an object that receives
bangs and spits them sequencially to different outputs?
 >>>
 >>> a bit like a counter plus a select 0 1 2 ... but it would take
an argument that sets the number of outputs
 >>>
 >>> it might well be that it exists and I am failing to find it...
 >>>
 >>> thanks
 >>>
 >>> enrike
 >>>
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Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[enrike]

it is not exactly that. when you continuously bang a gate it just spits 
the bang in the first outlet. I want it to cycle the outlets



or., 2017.eko urrren 13a 11:27(e)an, Jean-Marie Adrien igorleak idatzi zuen:

gate 5 ?
basically same as above….

Le 13 oct. 2017 à 11:06, enrike  a écrit :

I know, but I just wanted to know if there something that does the same job but 
within a single object


or., 2017.eko urrren 13a 10:31(e)an, cyrille henry igorleak idatzi zuen:

You have the solution in your mail :
you can make a counter with [f] [+ 1] and [% 5] then a [select 0 1 2 3 4] will 
do what you want.
why do you need something else?
cheers
c
Le 13/10/2017 à 10:17, enrike a écrit :

hi

sorry for poor email title, is there an object that receives bangs and spits 
them sequencially to different outputs?

a bit like a counter plus a select 0 1 2 ... but it would take an argument that 
sets the number of outputs

it might well be that it exists and I am failing to find it...

thanks

enrike

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Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

you could use cyclone/cycle for something like that

2017-10-13 6:27 GMT-03:00 Jean-Marie Adrien :

> gate 5 ?
> basically same as above….
> > Le 13 oct. 2017 à 11:06, enrike  a écrit :
> >
> > I know, but I just wanted to know if there something that does the same
> job but within a single object
> >
> >
> > or., 2017.eko urrren 13a 10:31(e)an, cyrille henry igorleak idatzi zuen:
> >> You have the solution in your mail :
> >> you can make a counter with [f] [+ 1] and [% 5] then a [select 0 1 2 3
> 4] will do what you want.
> >> why do you need something else?
> >> cheers
> >> c
> >> Le 13/10/2017 à 10:17, enrike a écrit :
> >>> hi
> >>>
> >>> sorry for poor email title, is there an object that receives bangs and
> spits them sequencially to different outputs?
> >>>
> >>> a bit like a counter plus a select 0 1 2 ... but it would take an
> argument that sets the number of outputs
> >>>
> >>> it might well be that it exists and I am failing to find it...
> >>>
> >>> thanks
> >>>
> >>> enrike
> >>>
> >>> ___
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> listinfo/pd-list
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Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[Jean-Marie Adrien]

gate 5 ?
basically same as above….
> Le 13 oct. 2017 à 11:06, enrike  a écrit :
> 
> I know, but I just wanted to know if there something that does the same job 
> but within a single object
> 
> 
> or., 2017.eko urrren 13a 10:31(e)an, cyrille henry igorleak idatzi zuen:
>> You have the solution in your mail :
>> you can make a counter with [f] [+ 1] and [% 5] then a [select 0 1 2 3 4] 
>> will do what you want.
>> why do you need something else?
>> cheers
>> c
>> Le 13/10/2017 à 10:17, enrike a écrit :
>>> hi
>>> 
>>> sorry for poor email title, is there an object that receives bangs and 
>>> spits them sequencially to different outputs?
>>> 
>>> a bit like a counter plus a select 0 1 2 ... but it would take an argument 
>>> that sets the number of outputs
>>> 
>>> it might well be that it exists and I am failing to find it...
>>> 
>>> thanks
>>> 
>>> enrike
>>> 
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Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[enrike]

I know, but I just wanted to know if there something that does the same 
job but within a single object



or., 2017.eko urrren 13a 10:31(e)an, cyrille henry igorleak idatzi zuen:

You have the solution in your mail :
you can make a counter with [f] [+ 1] and [% 5] then a [select 0 1 2 3 
4] will do what you want.


why do you need something else?

cheers
c



Le 13/10/2017 à 10:17, enrike a écrit :

hi

sorry for poor email title, is there an object that receives bangs and 
spits them sequencially to different outputs?


a bit like a counter plus a select 0 1 2 ... but it would take an 
argument that sets the number of outputs


it might well be that it exists and I am failing to find it...

thanks

enrike

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Re: [PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[cyrille henry]

You have the solution in your mail :
you can make a counter with [f] [+ 1] and [% 5] then a [select 0 1 2 3 4] will 
do what you want.

why do you need something else?

cheers
c



Le 13/10/2017 à 10:17, enrike a écrit :

hi

sorry for poor email title, is there an object that receives bangs and spits 
them sequencially to different outputs?

a bit like a counter plus a select 0 1 2 ... but it would take an argument that 
sets the number of outputs

it might well be that it exists and I am failing to find it...

thanks

enrike

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[PD] object that routes bangs to different outputs like a counter?

[enrike]

hi

sorry for poor email title, is there an object that receives bangs and 
spits them sequencially to different outputs?


a bit like a counter plus a select 0 1 2 ... but it would take an 
argument that sets the number of outputs


it might well be that it exists and I am failing to find it...

thanks

enrike

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