Willaim Robb wrote:
I don't understand why you are trying to make a connection between
music CDs and software. Other than that they are both on little
plastic discs, they don't really have much in common.
I helped develop a music CD a couple of years ago.
It was a buddy of mine recording a
From: Larry Levy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If you think you paid too much money for dodgy software, demand your money
back and return the product. Just because Ford Explorers were prone to
rollover when Firestones were mounted (certainly worse than the dodgy
software you're refering to),
From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2004/12/09 Thu AM 01:26:04 GMT
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
- Original Message -
From: mike wilson
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
John Francis wrote:
If an orchestra only
Hi,
From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: mike wilson
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
No I'm not. My argument was based on an orchestra, that has years
of training and months of development costs for a performace. The
higher pay
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 01:41:07 -0500 (EST), John Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Mishka mused:
it actually *is* on commercial basis. does red hat ring a bell, just to
name one
(but not, by far, the only)?
I'm well aware of Red Hat, Debian, etc. But they're not selling the
software -
Just one final comment, meant to lighten things up a bit.
If copying software is theft, what is this?
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=848531
CITY OF SUNDERLAND COLLEGE DISCLAIMER
Confidentiality: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
and intended solely for the
- Original Message -
From: mike.wilson
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Just one final comment, meant to lighten things up a bit.
If copying software is theft, what is this?
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=848531
Copyright infringement?
William Robb
- Original Message -
From:
Subject: Re: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Mike, are you presuming that yer basic orchestra (or even a very
good
one) has the same dollar value of input costs compared to a large
crew of software engineers playing with really expensive
computers?
When
From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2004/12/09 Thu PM 12:24:40 GMT
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
- Original Message -
From: mike.wilson
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Just one final comment, meant to lighten things
On Dec 9, 2004, at 11:34 AM, mike.wilson wrote:
And they produce a computer programme for playing with pictures. It
does it quite well but it's hardly obligatory for the continuation of
life. Rather like music.
Photoshop is a tool--often for making money. Music is entertainment.
Music is a
Amen Larry.
Tom C.
From: Don Sanderson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:09:01 -0600
Thanks for that Larry.
I'm staying out of this because I'm a reseller of software.
People other than the big
ernreed wrote:
Also, I suspect (though I have no studies to back this up) that some people
in possession of illegal copies of Photoshop might have considered *buying*
Photoshop Elements if they hadn't had the opportunity to buy the illegal
copy
of Photoshop.
Count me among those who say that
I used to work for Computer Sciences Corp. We sold among other things a
mainframe package to manage large financial funds which we gave away
for many hundreds of thousands of dollars per installation, we sold
licenses for use for may thousands of dollars per seat and we sold
customization and
It was legal to send jews to the gas chamber in WWII Germany; that didn't make
it right. It was legal to torture suspected witchs in the not so distanct past;
that didn't make it right either. The legality of something has very little to
do with the right or wrong of it.
I do not think Adobe
That is something that would get you sued very quickly if you tried to sell
it as a kit. As a one off custom it is merely impressive. Rolls Royce and
Ferrari have sued people who tried selling lookalike kits.
Paul Ewins
Melbourne, Australia
-Original Message-
From: mike.wilson
: Re: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Mike, are you presuming that yer basic orchestra (or even a very good
one) has the same dollar value of input costs compared to a large
crew of software engineers playing with really expensive computers?
When you factor in the years of training to learn
Can we just call it what it is - stealing. If I make something I am entitled
to charge whatever I want. You, on the other hand, are entitled not to buy
it. It is not a function of what time and money went into the creation of
the object. It is a function of what I want to charge for it.
If
The argument can be made that if you work for a crook, you are a crook. It is a
legal priciple called accessory to the act. Many of us manage to justify our
conflicting views with such rationalizations as yours.
The above is not intended as an attack, but to illustrate out how we can argue
one
John Francis wrote:
mike wilson mused:
Not sure I agree with you (I don't think the photographer analogy stands
up at all) and I still don't understand why music CDs are so much
cheaper, given the development costs are similar.
You're confusing unit manufacturing cost with product development
mike wilson mused:
John Francis wrote:
mike wilson mused:
Not sure I agree with you (I don't think the photographer analogy stands
up at all) and I still don't understand why music CDs are so much
cheaper, given the development costs are similar.
You're confusing unit
: Larry Levy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 9:09 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Can we just call it what it is - stealing. If I make something I
am entitled
to charge whatever I want. You, on the other hand, are entitled
Larry Levy wrote:
Just because you want something, doesn't mean you're entitled to have it.
That includes outrageous retail prices.
mike
me
as one of a myriad of creditors. I really didn't think that this is the
venue for going into further details.
Larry
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 11:37:39 -0500
From: Graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Content-Type
Hi,
Wednesday, December 8, 2004, 6:30:33 PM, Larry wrote:
And that's why I left and consulted to the law firm that was representing
the company from whom they lifted code. It was a really thin line to walk
while still honoring my original non-disclosure agreement with my former
employer.
On 8 Dec 2004 at 12:09, Don Sanderson wrote:
I think folks forget about us little guys trying to make
a living whe they make moral judgments about piracy.
Yeah but what about the ex-resellers that had to get out as M___soft, Adobe,
Novell reduced SRPs and increased dealer buy prices as the
Rob Studdert mused:
Volume increases should translate to lower cost in software as well as
hardware, the cost ratio of software to hardware has become absurd.
I'd suggest that the cost of software *has* decreased. Unfortunately
the complexity of software has increased significantly faster.
On 8 Dec 2004 at 16:34, John Francis wrote:
Then look at the size of open-source projects that try and do what
PhotoShop (to continue using that example) is doing. Image Magick,
Graphics Magick, and the Gimp have had a lot of development effort
invested, but they still don't come close to
John Francis wrote:
If an orchestra only gave one performance every three years (or if they
gave up public performances, and tried to survive solely on CD sales)
you'd be paying a lot more that $600 for a ticket or for that CD.
I get the impression that most of the larger, more famous orchestras
them. Same thing with software licenses.
Larry
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 22:18:39 +
From: mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding
- Original Message -
From: mike wilson
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Not sure I agree with you (I don't think the photographer analogy
stands up at all) and I still don't understand why music CDs are so
much cheaper, given the development costs are similar. If pirating
- Original Message -
From: mike wilson
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
No I'm not. My argument was based on an orchestra, that has years
of training and months of development costs for a performace. The
higher pay is a function of the higher retail price which
- Original Message -
From: mike wilson
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
John Francis wrote:
If an orchestra only gave one performance every three years (or if
they
gave up public performances, and tried to survive solely on CD
sales)
you'd be paying a lot more that $600
Their const would be significantly lower per unit. Not necessarily your
cost...
William Robb wrote:
- Original Message - From: mike wilson
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Not sure I agree with you (I don't think the photographer analogy
stands up at all) and I still don't
- Original Message -
From: Larry Levy
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Mike,
If you think you paid too much money for dodgy software, demand
your money back and return the product. Just because Ford Explorers
were prone to rollover when Firestones were mounted..
I read
Bill Rob asked,
Mike, are you presuming that yer basic orchestra (or even a very good
one) has the same dollar value of input costs compared to a large
crew of software engineers playing with really expensive computers?
Hmm,
Well a musician playing with a good orchestra probably has gone
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Hmm,
Well a musician playing with a good orchestra probably has gone
through at least fifteen years of very expensive one-on-one
training. And the man hours necessary to prepare for a performance
Software, orchestras, Photoshop...
So, as Ansel said, if the RAW file is the partiture, then Photoshop is
the orchestra. See? it isn't a bad analogy after all.
:-)
--
Juan Buhler
http://www.jbuhler.com
blog at http://www.jbuhler.com/blog
That should be their cost of course.
Peter J. Alling wrote:
Their const would be significantly lower per unit. Not necessarily
your cost...
William Robb wrote:
- Original Message - From: mike wilson
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Not sure I agree with you (I don't think
Based on my experience in software development I'm not sure the actual
value isn't the reverse...
William Robb wrote:
- Original Message - From: mike wilson
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
John Francis wrote:
If an orchestra only gave one performance every three years
- Original Message -
From: Peter J. Alling
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Based on my experience in software development I'm not sure the
actual value isn't the reverse...
You are absolutely correct in that.
William Robb
On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 10:32:14 -0500, Graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Second. How does someone using an unlicensed and unsupported copy of Photoshop
raise the prices of legitimate copies. I would assume that the folks using the
free copies would not pay $600 for it in any case. They would just
more like, you go to a library and xerox a book. and the original copy stays
with the library.
best,
mishka
On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 13:04:36 -0700, Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Let's take this to another level. I walk up to a car
lot, find the keys in the ignition, and drive off with a brand
Quoting William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Anyway, if my friend the Photoshop instructo is correct in his
assertion that Adobe has sold about 1 in every 10 copies that are in
use, (an I see no reason to doubt him), I don't see how you can argue
that pirating isn't causing a problem. If they
it actually *is* on commercial basis. does red hat ring a bell, just to name one
(but not, by far, the only)?
but it's a very different (from, say, adobe) business model: free (or
cheap) software,
profit off support. i think, the majority of software development use this model
in some form
development I'm not sure the actual
value isn't the reverse...
William Robb wrote:
- Original Message - From: mike wilson
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
John Francis wrote:
If an orchestra only gave one performance every three years (or if they
gave up
there *are* effects of scale. a similar tool (to PS) would cost tens or hundreds
of kilo$ if adobe had a hundred customers in the world. that's what our product
used to sell at my previous job.
i think the price is probably reasonable, however, the business model
is flawed.
enforcing and bitching
Mishka mused:
it actually *is* on commercial basis. does red hat ring a bell, just to name
one
(but not, by far, the only)?
I'm well aware of Red Hat, Debian, etc. But they're not selling the
software - they're selling support services. If they actually had to
pay for the software
Hi,
... It would be
really interesting to see if any company had the mettle to reduce their
price by a couple of orders of magnitude to try to corner the market.
it happens quite often. A lot of software is free for non-professional
use, or free through an open source licence. It's not
- Original Message -
From: mike wilson
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Let's say you are a member of a large orchestra. You take years to
learn your instrument and weeks to learn a particular piece, along
with your colleagues. A huge investment of time and effort
Basement
- Original Message -
From: mike wilson
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Let's say you are a member of a large orchestra. You take years to
learn your instrument and weeks to learn a particular piece, along
with your colleagues. A huge investment
stuff. The more there who
are using it, the more there are who will buy it.
graywolf
http://www.graywolfphoto.com
Idiot Proof == Expert Proof
---
William Robb wrote:
- Original Message - From: mike wilson
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Let's say
Graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How does someone using an unlicensed and unsupported copy of Photoshop
raise the prices of legitimate copies. I would assume that the folks using the
free copies would not pay $600 for it in any case. They would just use
something
else.
That's something I
OK... sending for 3rd time in 2 days (*^*% hotmail).
It's interesting... I just retraced my steps and found out how I got to
www.markdownsoftware in the first place. It was from a link on amazon.com
under the heading Customers interested in Photoshop for Astrophotographers
may also be
Graywolf and Mark Roberts wrote:
Graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How does someone using an unlicensed and unsupported copy of Photoshop
raise the prices of legitimate copies. I would assume that the folks
using the
free copies would not pay $600 for it in any case. They would just use
- Original Message -
From: Tom C
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
I have thought this (the arguments above) to some degree myself in
the past. It's an easy rationalization that one could make in order
to justify use without a purchase. I never would have bought it,
so I'm
- Original Message -
From: Graywolf
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
First off Bill, everyone does not steal. There are honest people in
the world.
With computer software, I think the percentage is surprisingly small
though.
Second. How does someone using an unlicensed
On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 13:04:36 -0700, Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't totally agree with these arguments though I undertsand the point
your making. Bootlegged copies do represent lost potential sales and lost
potential income. Let's take this to another level. I walk up to a car
lot,
Juan wrote:
Ah, but that little caveat is what makes the whole difference. If
you take the Jaguar, the dealer has one less car to sell. If you
duplicate it, maybe even your neighbor will like it, and will go out
and buy a Jaguar for himself, thus benefiting the dealer.
I just don't see that as
William Robb wrote:
- Original Message - From: mike wilson
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Let's say you are a member of a large orchestra. You take years to
learn your instrument and weeks to learn a particular piece, along
with your colleagues. A huge investment of time
mike wilson mused:
Not sure I agree with you (I don't think the photographer analogy stands
up at all) and I still don't understand why music CDs are so much
cheaper, given the development costs are similar.
You're confusing unit manufacturing cost with product development cost.
A decent
PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 08:12:20 -0500
common! these guys post their physical address and phone #s!
just call them.
best,
mishka
On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 07:54:50 -0500, Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED
Tom C wrote:
I have to say I don't buy into pirated software or any other pirated
intellectual property, especially not 'just because millions of other
people see nothing wrong with it'. As a software developer myself, I
recognize the hard work that goes into writing software, especially
Mishka wrote:
just enjoy the program. adobe hasn't really lost anything. changing
the credit card
number may be a good idea, but other than that, i wouldn't worry about anything.
remember, there're india, russia (or, rather, ex-ussr) an china where people
consider it utterly stupid to buy a
PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 13:12:13 +
Mishka wrote:
just enjoy the program. adobe hasn't really lost anything. changing
the credit card
number may be a good idea, but other than that, i wouldn't
Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It's interesting... I just retraced my steps and found out how I got to
www.markdownsoftware in the first place. It was from a link provided by
amazon.com under the heading Customers interested in Photoshop for
Astrophotographers may also be interested in:.
Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I was really scared for a second... I mispelled the URL... it is...
http://www.markdownsoftware.com/
Web page hosted by serverbeach.com, an outfit well known for harboring
spammers and other disreputable types.
--
Mark Roberts
Photography and writing
common! these guys post their physical address and phone #s!
just call them.
best,
mishka
On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 07:54:50 -0500, Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I was really scared for a second... I mispelled the URL... it is...
On 3/12/04, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed:
Another quick thought Tom, they disappeared AND they have your CC
number!
I'd suggest a phone call.
I'd suggest cancelling that card altogether.
Without a doubt!
Cheers,
Cotty
___/\__
|| (O) | People, Places, Pastiche
How can this be?
While browsing yesterday I came across a link for Adobe software at closeout
prices, including Photoshop CS. I followed the link to
www.markedownsoftware.com.
It offers a full version Photoshop CS for $95.99 as a download only, and
slightly more if a CD is desired. I
You bougt a cracked version. Illegal. Bootleg. Call it what you will. Run
the serial number through Google, see what turns up, and let us know ;-))
Something similar happened to a friend of mine. He did the same thing with
v7.0. When I became suspicious and called PS, they told me it was an
: RE: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:46:14 -0800
You bougt a cracked version. Illegal. Bootleg. Call it what you will. Run
the serial number through Google, see what turns up, and let us know ;-))
Something similar happened to a friend of mine. He did the same thing
you could've gotten the same one for free from kazaa. or somewhere else.
best,
mishka
On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:32:36 -0700, Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How can this be?
While browsing yesterday I came across a link for Adobe software at closeout
prices, including Photoshop CS. I followed
Passing on the moral/legal implications, bootleg copies can be downloaded for
free. You were ripped, coming, and going.
graywolf
http://www.graywolfphoto.com
Idiot Proof == Expert Proof
---
[Original Message]
From: Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED]
How can this be?
While
If you have used your credit card you may be able to get the transaction
cancelled, as you have bought goods that were misrepresented. If Adobe
confirms that it was a pirate copy then it is clear fraud on the part of the
seller.
Paul Ewins
Melbourne, Australia
it is
mine.
Maybe I'll get a whistleblower's reward and Adobe will give me free upgrades
to any of their products for life (said with raised eyebrow).
Tom C.
From: Paul Ewins [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Date: Sat
.
Tom C.
From: Graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:24:13 -0500
Passing on the moral/legal implications, bootleg copies can be downloaded
for free. You were ripped, coming, and going
, and having the ability to upgrade or add features (sat an
updated RAW plug-in) is important to you, then you know what you should do.
Shel
[Original Message]
From: Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 12/3/2004 5:04:07 PM
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Well, I
from Adobe for
$169.
Tom C.
From: Graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:24:13 -0500
Passing on the moral/legal implications, bootleg copies can be
downloaded
for free. You were
www.markedownsoftware.com seems to have disappeared as we have been
discussing it.
Don
-Original Message-
From: Tom C [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 4:33 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
How can this be?
While browsing
Another quick thought Tom, they disappeared AND they have your CC number!
I'd suggest a phone call.
Don
-Original Message-
From: Tom C [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 4:33 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
How can
- Original Message -
From: Don Sanderson
Subject: RE: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Another quick thought Tom, they disappeared AND they have your CC
number!
I'd suggest a phone call.
I'd suggest cancelling that card altogether.
William Robb
On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:32:36 -0700, Tom C wrote:
I halfway suspect I've bought a bootleg version, except that I can't
imagine someone blatantly advertising this on the web and not being
afraid of the 'Software Police'.
I _completely_ suspect that it's bootleg. If they're outside the US,
they
not have purchased it.
Tom C.
From: Don Sanderson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 19:26:00 -0600
www.markedownsoftware.com seems to have disappeared as we have been
discussing it.
Don
-Original
it is not remotely legitimate.
Herb...
- Original Message -
From: Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 5:32 PM
Subject: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Any idea how this can be legitimate? How can numerous purchasers all be
given the same
Cancel your CC anyway
Shel
[Original Message]
From: Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 12/3/2004 6:06:20 PM
Subject: RE: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
I was really scared for a second... I mispelled the URL... it is...
http://www.markdownsoftware.com/
After
]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 12/3/2004 5:29:40 PM
Subject: RE: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Another quick thought Tom, they disappeared AND they have your CC number!
I'd suggest a phone call.
Don
]
Subject: RE: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 19:26:00 -0600
www.markedownsoftware.com seems to have disappeared as we have been
discussing it.
Don
-Original Message-
From: Tom C [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 4:33 PM
- Original Message -
From: Shel Belinkoff
Subject: RE: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
Oy Vey!
I'm sorry this happened to you Tom, really sorry. It's good you
broached
the subject here, though. Call your CC company now, and perhaps
this will
be a lesson of some sort to everyone else
:20 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Photoshop CS Bargain Basement
You know what they say Tom, if it sounds too good to be true.
I would certainly try the CC company and see if you can cancel the charge.
I wouldn't be too hopeful however, most of these places provide themselves
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