Re: 5DmkIV sensor almost as good as K-1

2016-09-16 Thread Alan C 
Well said Igor & PJ. There is truth in both sides of the argument. Most 
young people don't embrace conventional cameras any more but many still 
manage to shoot impressive images which shows just how good modern 
technology can be. Then there are those with the best equipment who will 
never master it. We still have PDML members who use vintage equipment with 
great success too. A good eye is important too. If you can afford the best 
then why not but most people can't.  I find PJ's FS list mindboggling. I 
would love a K1 & * lenses but my K7 or even K110D with consumer lenses will 
just have to do. Each to his own.


Alan C

-Original Message- 
From: Igor PDML-StR

Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 6:36 PM
To: PDML@pdml.net
Subject: Re: 5DmkIV sensor almost as good as K-1


P.J.,

I understand and agree with your point that Paul proficienty and
efficiently using the tools he has. And I assume all people on this list
learned and developed some tricks to compensate for the shortcomings of
the cameras we've been using. (I can say that about myself even if maybe
not at Paul's level of proficiency.)

But then when you are (sort of) blaming (or at least seeing it being a
problem) "most kids today" for enjoying the more advanced features of the
more feature-rich cameras, I disagree with that.

Technology changes. Nobody is going to say that a writer is not good
enough if he/she cannot write with a feather, scribing on papyrus, on
adobe plates  .. or even type with a simple typewriter :-D.

And very few (if any) today's sound engineers would know how to record
music with a gramophone.

Closer to this list: I think it is pretty much settled that the future
Ansel-Adamses do not have to carry a wooden box and glass plates.
I am sure it wasn't that obvious when "compact" cameras showed up on the
market. I would even venture to suggest that even Ansel Adams would have
switched to a 645Z if appropriate opportunities were presented. :-)

Having said all that, I would fully support you on is that one should
know his/her tool very well, regardless of what that tool is.
And I think that's what is in the foundation of your being unhappy with
the "most kids today". But to that, - this situation is timeless: in all
generations there are and there were people who don't bother learning
about their tools, just scraping on the surface and being satisfied with
that. And even for that, - that is a problem only when those people claim
being "experts" (like the "reviewer" who should not be named). If someone
is using only some (subset of) functions of an advanced tool and draw
their pleasure from that, so be it. And if someone has the money to blow
on a McLaren of SLRs (pun intended) to use for facebook snaps, all the
best to him/her.

Cheers,

Igor



P.J. Alling Fri, 16 Sep 2016 08:32:52 -0700 wrote:

Paul, you're an old timer who /had/ to develop actual shooting skills,
because the camera didn't do it for you, giving you a camera that needs
you to actually do some if not all of the work, results in great
photographs. Most kids today don't even know where to start if the camera
can't focus for them. or blast off 20 frames to capture something /close/
to the decisive moment. That's what I see to be the problem, they'd rather
spend twice as much to get something that do most of the work for them.
The K-1 is three things, solidly built, a great performer, (if you know
how to use it), and a great bargain. I only hope that's enough to make it
a great seller.

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Re: 5DmkIV sensor almost as good as K-1

2016-09-16 Thread Igor PDML-StR 


P.J.,

I understand and agree with your point that Paul proficienty and 
efficiently using the tools he has. And I assume all people on this list
learned and developed some tricks to compensate for the shortcomings of 
the cameras we've been using. (I can say that about myself even if maybe 
not at Paul's level of proficiency.)


But then when you are (sort of) blaming (or at least seeing it being a 
problem) "most kids today" for enjoying the more advanced features of the 
more feature-rich cameras, I disagree with that.


Technology changes. Nobody is going to say that a writer is not good 
enough if he/she cannot write with a feather, scribing on papyrus, on 
adobe plates  .. or even type with a simple typewriter :-D.


And very few (if any) today's sound engineers would know how to record 
music with a gramophone.


Closer to this list: I think it is pretty much settled that the future 
Ansel-Adamses do not have to carry a wooden box and glass plates.
I am sure it wasn't that obvious when "compact" cameras showed up on the 
market. I would even venture to suggest that even Ansel Adams would have 
switched to a 645Z if appropriate opportunities were presented. :-)


Having said all that, I would fully support you on is that one should 
know his/her tool very well, regardless of what that tool is.
And I think that's what is in the foundation of your being unhappy with 
the "most kids today". But to that, - this situation is timeless: in all 
generations there are and there were people who don't bother learning 
about their tools, just scraping on the surface and being satisfied with 
that. And even for that, - that is a problem only when those people claim 
being "experts" (like the "reviewer" who should not be named). If someone 
is using only some (subset of) functions of an advanced tool and draw 
their pleasure from that, so be it. And if someone has the money to blow 
on a McLaren of SLRs (pun intended) to use for facebook snaps, all the 
best to him/her.


Cheers,

Igor



P.J. Alling Fri, 16 Sep 2016 08:32:52 -0700 wrote:

Paul, you're an old timer who /had/ to develop actual shooting skills, 
because the camera didn't do it for you, giving you a camera that needs 
you to actually do some if not all of the work, results in great 
photographs. Most kids today don't even know where to start if the camera 
can't focus for them. or blast off 20 frames to capture something /close/ 
to the decisive moment. That's what I see to be the problem, they'd rather 
spend twice as much to get something that do most of the work for them. 
The K-1 is three things, solidly built, a great performer, (if you know 
how to use it), and a great bargain. I only hope that's enough to make it 
a great seller.


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Re: 5DmkIV sensor almost as good as K-1

2016-09-16 Thread P.J. Alling 

On 9/16/2016 7:23 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote:


Paul via phone


On Sep 16, 2016, at 1:10 AM, Larry Colen  wrote:



P.J. Alling wrote:

To be fair, the Canon has a better autofocus system with more focus
points spread over more of the frame, not to mention much better live
view focusing, faster frame rate, bigger buffer, a touch screen, (which
enables nose focus I would guess), and records video in 4K, all of which
are desirable to a lot of photographers.

Yup. The K-1 is the best camera on the market for someone who wishes that their 
35 year old K1000 was digital. Sure, it has all those niceties like autofocus, 
auto exposure and such, but to really get the best results from it, you very 
rarely want to rely entirely on its automatic modes. However, if you're willing 
to take your time, and carefully double check everything, it is probably the 
best performing camera on the market for anything close to the cost.

For shooting action, arguably my K-3 is a much better camera, with the faster 
frame rate and much larger buffer.


Perhaps, but in shooting football and RC Motorsport I've found the K-1 
continuous autofocus to be superior to that of the K-3. I'm probably going to 
shoot football again so perhaps I'll give the K-3 a try. I have used it to 
shoot road racing and got satisfactory results but seem to recall more missed 
focus.


Paul, you're an old timer who /had/ to develop actual shooting skills, 
because the camera didn't do it for you, giving you a camera that needs 
you to actually do some if not all of the work, results in great 
photographs.  Most kids today don't even know where to start if the 
camera can't focus for them. or blast off 20 frames to capture something 
/close/ to the decisive moment.  That's what I see to be the problem, 
they'd rather spend twice as much to get something that do most of the 
work for them.  The K-1 is three things, solidly built, a great 
performer, (if you know how to use it), and a great bargain.  I only 
hope that's enough to make it a great seller.



On 9/15/2016 7:22 PM, Larry Colen wrote:
And at $3500 it is less than twice the cost

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-IV-versus-Pentax-K-1___1106_1075

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Re: 5DmkIV sensor almost as good as K-1

2016-09-16 Thread John 
Doesn't matter. If I was going to change brands now, it wouldn't be to 
Canon.


On 9/15/2016 7:22 PM, Larry Colen wrote:

And at $3500 it is less than twice the cost

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-IV-versus-Pentax-K-1___1106_1075




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Re: 5DmkIV sensor almost as good as K-1

2016-09-16 Thread Paul Stenquist 


Paul via phone

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 1:10 AM, Larry Colen  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> P.J. Alling wrote:
>> To be fair, the Canon has a better autofocus system with more focus
>> points spread over more of the frame, not to mention much better live
>> view focusing, faster frame rate, bigger buffer, a touch screen, (which
>> enables nose focus I would guess), and records video in 4K, all of which
>> are desirable to a lot of photographers.
> 
> Yup. The K-1 is the best camera on the market for someone who wishes that 
> their 35 year old K1000 was digital. Sure, it has all those niceties like 
> autofocus, auto exposure and such, but to really get the best results from 
> it, you very rarely want to rely entirely on its automatic modes. However, if 
> you're willing to take your time, and carefully double check everything, it 
> is probably the best performing camera on the market for anything close to 
> the cost.
> 
> For shooting action, arguably my K-3 is a much better camera, with the faster 
> frame rate and much larger buffer.
> 
Perhaps, but in shooting football and RC Motorsport I've found the K-1 
continuous autofocus to be superior to that of the K-3. I'm probably going to 
shoot football again so perhaps I'll give the K-3 a try. I have used it to 
shoot road racing and got satisfactory results but seem to recall more missed 
focus.
>> 
>>> On 9/15/2016 7:22 PM, Larry Colen wrote:
>>> And at $3500 it is less than twice the cost
>>> 
>>> https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-IV-versus-Pentax-K-1___1106_1075
> 
> -- 
> Larry Colen  l...@red4est.com (postbox on min4est) http://red4est.com/lrc
> 
> 
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Re: 5DmkIV sensor almost as good as K-1

2016-09-15 Thread Larry Colen 



P.J. Alling wrote:

To be fair, the Canon has a better autofocus system with more focus
points spread over more of the frame, not to mention much better live
view focusing, faster frame rate, bigger buffer, a touch screen, (which
enables nose focus I would guess), and records video in 4K, all of which
are desirable to a lot of photographers.


Yup. The K-1 is the best camera on the market for someone who wishes 
that their 35 year old K1000 was digital. Sure, it has all those 
niceties like autofocus, auto exposure and such, but to really get the 
best results from it, you very rarely want to rely entirely on its 
automatic modes. However, if you're willing to take your time, and 
carefully double check everything, it is probably the best performing 
camera on the market for anything close to the cost.


For shooting action, arguably my K-3 is a much better camera, with the 
faster frame rate and much larger buffer.





On 9/15/2016 7:22 PM, Larry Colen wrote:

And at $3500 it is less than twice the cost

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-IV-versus-Pentax-K-1___1106_1075







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Re: 5DmkIV sensor almost as good as K-1

2016-09-15 Thread P.J. Alling 
To be fair, the Canon has a better autofocus system with more focus 
points spread over more of the frame, not to mention much better live 
view focusing, faster frame rate, bigger buffer, a touch screen, (which 
enables nose focus I would guess), and records video in 4K, all of which 
are desirable to a lot of photographers.


On 9/15/2016 7:22 PM, Larry Colen wrote:

And at $3500 it is less than twice the cost

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-IV-versus-Pentax-K-1___1106_1075 






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Re: 5DmkIV sensor almost as good as K-1

2016-09-15 Thread Igor PDML-StR 


It's probably unfair to compare sensor performance only.
And we all know some glaring (I almost wrote "gloring") shortcomings in 
Pentax cameras.

And there are some strengths of them as well.
So, if I had three cameras of a comparable class (AFAIK, 5DmkIV is 
somewhat above K-1 in the class, isn't it?), - P, C, N, and I had to 
assign a "fair" price (i.e. neglecting the brand name premium),

that would be a very hard job.

The fully ideal camera will never happen, something will always be 
missing, as you cannot attache the head of Steven to the body of Peter.



Don't take me wrong, - I still like my K-5 IIs.

:-)

Igor


 Larry Colen Thu, 15 Sep 2016 16:38:08 -0700 wrote:

Larry Colen wrote:

And at $3500 it is less than twice the cost



https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-IV-versus-Pentax-K-1___1106_1075

When you add the D810 to the mix, it squeaks by on score for slightly
better performance at ISO < 100.

Admittedly, the Canikons do perform slightly better than the Pentax at
some higher ISOs (generally over 12,000).  Realistically, I don't think
many people would be able to tell the difference in sensor performance
in the vast majority of situations. Cost seems to be
Canon  $3500
Nikon  $2800
Pentax $1800


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Re: 5DmkIV sensor almost as good as K-1

2016-09-15 Thread Larry Colen 



Larry Colen wrote:

And at $3500 it is less than twice the cost

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-IV-versus-Pentax-K-1___1106_1075


When you add the D810 to the mix, it squeaks by on score for slightly 
better performance at ISO < 100.


Admittedly, the Canikons do perform slightly better than the Pentax at 
some higher ISOs (generally over 12,000).  Realistically, I don't think 
many people would be able to tell the difference in sensor performance 
in the vast majority of situations. Cost seems to be

Canon  $3500
Nikon  $2800
Pentax $1800







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Re: 5DmkIV sensor almost as good as K-1

2016-09-15 Thread Mark Roberts 
Larry Colen wrote:

>And at $3500 it is less than twice the cost
>
>https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-IV-versus-Pentax-K-1___1106_1075

Har!
 
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5DmkIV sensor almost as good as K-1

2016-09-15 Thread Larry Colen 

And at $3500 it is less than twice the cost

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-IV-versus-Pentax-K-1___1106_1075

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