Re: [PEIRCE-L] Theory of posting
Dear Edwina, Gary, list: It would surprise me more if one did *not* get angry when truth about interpretation is at stake. Why do people get angry and fight about metaphors? One two three…*thumos, eros, logos*… Best, Jerry R On Sat, Sep 17, 2016 at 2:50 PM, Edwina Taborsky wrote: > Gary - first, to tell someone untruths about themselves is not a > responsible method of debate. As I said - I never said one word about my > 'principles of interpretation of Peirce' - and for you to suggest that I > did, and that these are different from ALL others - is indeed a put-down. > > Second, a graph IS a diagram. The common triangle, used in various texts > to refer to both Peircean semiosis and Saussurian semiology, is, in my > view, incorrect to use in Peircean semiosis. Instead, the Peircean triad > is, as he said 'a graph with three tails' - and as he shows in 1.347, these > connect with other triads. > > And no-one has said that the 'tail' itself represents the 'sign, object, > interpretant' .I agree - the 'spots *with* their tails' or nodal sites > with their interactions/relations - represent the Relations. Obviously a > 'tail' or Relation can't exist 'per se' but functions via the nodal sites! > > What puzzles me is why you are so angry about this! > > Edwina > > - Original Message ----- > *From:* g...@gnusystems.ca > *To:* peirce-l@list.iupui.edu > *Sent:* Saturday, September 17, 2016 3:23 PM > *Subject:* RE: [PEIRCE-L] Theory of posting > > Edwina, as I said before, you’re free to interpret Peirce as you please, > and to read whatever you please into my posts, or Jon’s, or anyone else’s; > if you interpret something I said as an attempted “put-down,” that’s none > of my business. You’re welcome to all of your interpretations. As for me, I > feel free to ignore any questions or comments on this list that are based > *solely* on your interpretations or are not conducive to the further > development of Peircean thinking. > > > > It *might* be useful to somebody if I explain the difference between an > Existential Graph and a “graphic diagram of the semiosic triad.” The > latter I take to refer to any of the varieties of three-point or > three-spoke diagrams where the three points represent sign, object and > interpretant, often with the labels R, O and I respectively. An Existential > Graph of the kind illustrated in CP 1.347 is explained by Peirce in the > previous paragraph: > > [[ In existential graphs, a spot with one tail [—X] represents a quality, > a spot with two tails [—R—] a dyadic relation. Joining the ends of two > tails is also a dyadic relation. But you can never by such joining make a > graph with three tails. ]] A “spot” with three “tails” represents a triadic > relation, but the “tails” do not represent sign, object and interpretant. > The “tails” represent what Peirce calls the “blanks” in a rheme, or > predicate, and the number of tails makes it a monadic, dyadic, triadic, > tetradic, pentadic (etc.) rheme or rhema. When these “blanks” are filled > with *subjects*, represented in the graph by *lines of identity* > connected to the spots, they represent propositions. As Peirce says, the > *relations* (monadic, dyadic, triadic or what have you) are represented > by the *spots with their tails*, not by the “tails.” The “X” and “R” in > Peirce’s examples are not *relata* and the “tails” do not represent their > relation to something else. > > > > This is barely a beginning of an explanation of EGs, which were Peirce’s > main “diagrams of thought” from the late 1890s onward and fill many of his > manuscripts (and letters to Welby), but it should be enough to show how > they differ from the usual diagrams we see of the R-O-I or S-O-I triad. I > call these “the usual diagrams” rather than “Peirce’s diagram(s)” because > Peirce in fact never drew any such diagram, or at least never published > one, though he published lots of EGs. > > > > I don’t expect this will be of any use to you, Edwina, as it’s “just my > interpretation” as far as you’re concerned. But there may be others reading > this, and I hope it’s of some use to them, sketchy though it is. > > > > Gary f. > > > > *From:* Edwina Taborsky [mailto:tabor...@primus.ca] > *Sent:* 17-Sep-16 13:39 > *To:* g...@gnusystems.ca; peirce-l@list.iupui.edu > *Subject:* Re: [PEIRCE-L] Peirce's Theory of Thinking > > > > Gary F- please don't attempt to 'put me down'. I've never said one word > about 'the principles which guide my interpretation of Peirce'. [I notice > you refer to my 'interpretation of Peirce' in quotes'. Why?]. Nor have I >
Re: [PEIRCE-L] Theory of posting
Gary - first, to tell someone untruths about themselves is not a responsible method of debate. As I said - I never said one word about my 'principles of interpretation of Peirce' - and for you to suggest that I did, and that these are different from ALL others - is indeed a put-down. Second, a graph IS a diagram. The common triangle, used in various texts to refer to both Peircean semiosis and Saussurian semiology, is, in my view, incorrect to use in Peircean semiosis. Instead, the Peircean triad is, as he said 'a graph with three tails' - and as he shows in 1.347, these connect with other triads. And no-one has said that the 'tail' itself represents the 'sign, object, interpretant' .I agree - the 'spots with their tails' or nodal sites with their interactions/relations - represent the Relations. Obviously a 'tail' or Relation can't exist 'per se' but functions via the nodal sites! What puzzles me is why you are so angry about this! Edwina - Original Message - From: g...@gnusystems.ca To: peirce-l@list.iupui.edu Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 3:23 PM Subject: RE: [PEIRCE-L] Theory of posting Edwina, as I said before, you’re free to interpret Peirce as you please, and to read whatever you please into my posts, or Jon’s, or anyone else’s; if you interpret something I said as an attempted “put-down,” that’s none of my business. You’re welcome to all of your interpretations. As for me, I feel free to ignore any questions or comments on this list that are based solely on your interpretations or are not conducive to the further development of Peircean thinking. It might be useful to somebody if I explain the difference between an Existential Graph and a “graphic diagram of the semiosic triad.” The latter I take to refer to any of the varieties of three-point or three-spoke diagrams where the three points represent sign, object and interpretant, often with the labels R, O and I respectively. An Existential Graph of the kind illustrated in CP 1.347 is explained by Peirce in the previous paragraph: [[ In existential graphs, a spot with one tail [—X] represents a quality, a spot with two tails [—R—] a dyadic relation. Joining the ends of two tails is also a dyadic relation. But you can never by such joining make a graph with three tails. ]] A “spot” with three “tails” represents a triadic relation, but the “tails” do not represent sign, object and interpretant. The “tails” represent what Peirce calls the “blanks” in a rheme, or predicate, and the number of tails makes it a monadic, dyadic, triadic, tetradic, pentadic (etc.) rheme or rhema. When these “blanks” are filled with subjects, represented in the graph by lines of identity connected to the spots, they represent propositions. As Peirce says, the relations (monadic, dyadic, triadic or what have you) are represented by the spots with their tails, not by the “tails.” The “X” and “R” in Peirce’s examples are not relata and the “tails” do not represent their relation to something else. This is barely a beginning of an explanation of EGs, which were Peirce’s main “diagrams of thought” from the late 1890s onward and fill many of his manuscripts (and letters to Welby), but it should be enough to show how they differ from the usual diagrams we see of the R-O-I or S-O-I triad. I call these “the usual diagrams” rather than “Peirce’s diagram(s)” because Peirce in fact never drew any such diagram, or at least never published one, though he published lots of EGs. I don’t expect this will be of any use to you, Edwina, as it’s “just my interpretation” as far as you’re concerned. But there may be others reading this, and I hope it’s of some use to them, sketchy though it is. Gary f. From: Edwina Taborsky [mailto:tabor...@primus.ca] Sent: 17-Sep-16 13:39 To: g...@gnusystems.ca; peirce-l@list.iupui.edu Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Peirce's Theory of Thinking Gary F- please don't attempt to 'put me down'. I've never said one word about 'the principles which guide my interpretation of Peirce'. [I notice you refer to my 'interpretation of Peirce' in quotes'. Why?]. Nor have I ever said a word or explained 'my practice' of interpreting Peirce in any way. I interpret him exactly as anyone else would - and as you do - with the capacity to read, to reason, to analyze. Are you going to deny me such attributes? Of course I interpret Peircean semiosis such that I conclude that no triad, i.e., a Sign, is ever isolate. Such a claim is all through his work, when he comments on how Signs connect and become other Signs. Your declaration that 'anyone' who looks at the diagram can see that it is NOT a diagram - is your interpretation - and quite insulting that you assertively declare that 'a
RE: [PEIRCE-L] Theory of posting
Edwina, as I said before, you’re free to interpret Peirce as you please, and to read whatever you please into my posts, or Jon’s, or anyone else’s; if you interpret something I said as an attempted “put-down,” that’s none of my business. You’re welcome to all of your interpretations. As for me, I feel free to ignore any questions or comments on this list that are based solely on your interpretations or are not conducive to the further development of Peircean thinking. It might be useful to somebody if I explain the difference between an Existential Graph and a “graphic diagram of the semiosic triad.” The latter I take to refer to any of the varieties of three-point or three-spoke diagrams where the three points represent sign, object and interpretant, often with the labels R, O and I respectively. An Existential Graph of the kind illustrated in CP 1.347 is explained by Peirce in the previous paragraph: [[ In existential graphs, a spot with one tail [—X] represents a quality, a spot with two tails [—R—] a dyadic relation. Joining the ends of two tails is also a dyadic relation. But you can never by such joining make a graph with three tails. ]] A “spot” with three “tails” represents a triadic relation, but the “tails” do not represent sign, object and interpretant. The “tails” represent what Peirce calls the “blanks” in a rheme, or predicate, and the number of tails makes it a monadic, dyadic, triadic, tetradic, pentadic (etc.) rheme or rhema. When these “blanks” are filled with subjects, represented in the graph by lines of identity connected to the spots, they represent propositions. As Peirce says, the relations (monadic, dyadic, triadic or what have you) are represented by the spots with their tails, not by the “tails.” The “X” and “R” in Peirce’s examples are not relata and the “tails” do not represent their relation to something else. This is barely a beginning of an explanation of EGs, which were Peirce’s main “diagrams of thought” from the late 1890s onward and fill many of his manuscripts (and letters to Welby), but it should be enough to show how they differ from the usual diagrams we see of the R-O-I or S-O-I triad. I call these “the usual diagrams” rather than “Peirce’s diagram(s)” because Peirce in fact never drew any such diagram, or at least never published one, though he published lots of EGs. I don’t expect this will be of any use to you, Edwina, as it’s “just my interpretation” as far as you’re concerned. But there may be others reading this, and I hope it’s of some use to them, sketchy though it is. Gary f. From: Edwina Taborsky [mailto:tabor...@primus.ca] Sent: 17-Sep-16 13:39 To: g...@gnusystems.ca; peirce-l@list.iupui.edu Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Peirce's Theory of Thinking Gary F- please don't attempt to 'put me down'. I've never said one word about 'the principles which guide my interpretation of Peirce'. [I notice you refer to my 'interpretation of Peirce' in quotes'. Why?]. Nor have I ever said a word or explained 'my practice' of interpreting Peirce in any way. I interpret him exactly as anyone else would - and as you do - with the capacity to read, to reason, to analyze. Are you going to deny me such attributes? Of course I interpret Peircean semiosis such that I conclude that no triad, i.e., a Sign, is ever isolate. Such a claim is all through his work, when he comments on how Signs connect and become other Signs. Your declaration that 'anyone' who looks at the diagram can see that it is NOT a diagram - is your interpretation - and quite insulting that you assertively declare that 'anyone', i.e., ALL people must see it the way YOU see it. Who made you the Authority? You are, like me, someone who reads and interprets Peirce - and I assure you, I have no intention of belittling your interpretations as based on non-Peircean criteria or marginal-to-the-Peircean-world. . I see it as a diagram of the triad - and yes, the 'tails' or Relations can thus connect - as he specifically says, "any greater number of correlates is nothing but a compound of triadic relations'. Kindly tell me the vital difference between a 'graph' and a 'diagram'. AND - kindly tell me the functionality of such connections between tails and the functionality of such 'compounds of triadic relations'. Well? Apart from quoting the text - what does it mean to you? What it means to me - is that dynamic connection of triads. It is YOU who declare that my interpretation of Peirce is ungrounded in his work. I've no idea what 'principles of interpretation' you claim that I use; I've never said a word about them. BUT - where do you get the conclusion that I say that MY interpretation is right? I've been arguing with Jon for days about HIS assertion that HIS interpretations are right - and I've been declaring that none of us has that right. All we can say is that 'we interpret the text in such and such a way'. You can agree
