Rakesh,
Why should the burden be on Maggie or any other women on this list to
respond to sexism? When I challenged Karl around his sexism, it was not out
of some noble sense of chivalry nor because I did not believe women on the
list could not respond for themselves, but because I found it
At 09:02 PM 7/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
Ajit told a story about leaving a disruptive student in class. Let me
refer to my own experience.
As a grad. student in Berkeley, I volunteered at the Prescott School in
Oakland, where a young Berkeley gratudate was trying to maintain order
is a class of 30
Ajit told a story about leaving a disruptive student in class. Let me
refer to my own experience.
As a grad. student in Berkeley, I volunteered at the Prescott School in
Oakland, where a young Berkeley gratudate was trying to maintain order
is a class of 30 or so students. Nothing was being
At 01:40 PM 7/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
If, rather than
sexism, Karl had expressed equally damaging racism, would those who have
spoken in favor of allowing him to remain continue to be so inclined? Karl
and others like him have many venues on the Internet to spew their hurtful
vituperation.
On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Louis Proyect wrote:
Jim Craven:
Interestingly, since the late
1960s, the notion of the USSR as a "Social Imperialist" formation has
been very widespread in India and many Indians denounced the
relations with the USSR as being equivalent in nature and impact as
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:29:23 -0700 (PDT)
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Louis P:
What does this mean other than there is a large Maoist contingent in India?
Rakesh raised the question of Soviet "exploitation" of India over on the
Spoons list in a "state
At 05:46 AM 7/6/97 -0700, Maggie Coleman wrote, inter alia:
In fact, men do criticize women as a gender constantly. This is pervasive
throughout society. Example #1. Who exactly do you think is being
criticized by the press as being welfare cheats? All those white guys with
union jobs? All
Addendum (had to leave office)
The real nature of Indian-USSR relations became the subject of
widespread discussions in India--among more than Maoists-- especially
in the 1970s when the pro-Soviet CPI endorsed "Emergency Measures" by
Indira Gandhi's Government. How any so-called "Communists"
Jim Craven writes:the notion that the governments of India have been in
any position to leverage U.S. vs USSR rivalries for the benefit of India is
simply not in accordance with the known historical facts.
I was reporting what is commonly said about India's status in the context
of the
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to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f
To: "Karl Carlile" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Zeynep Tufekcioglu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: M-I: 3 posts a day limit
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Louis R Godena),
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:38:31 +0300
Sender: [EMAIL
Jim Craven:
Interestingly, since the late
1960s, the notion of the USSR as a "Social Imperialist" formation has
been very widespread in India and many Indians denounced the
relations with the USSR as being equivalent in nature and impact as
those with the British in the past and Americans
KARL CARLILE: James Divine states and I quote: "Even though I prefer
collective shunning as a way to deal with obnoxious characters who
invade pen-l". Calling me "obnoxious"constitutes a personal abusive
attack on me and in way contitutes a criticsim of my politics.
The fact that I am expelled
The following was received from the Canadian organisation Science for
Peace.
Jesse Vorst, Society for Socialist Studies, Winnipeg, Canada
For information contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Lee Lorch)
or Roberto Yepe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Technical Considerations on
I do not consider the fate of Karl to be censorship. I don't think that
anyone on this list disagrees with everything on this list.
I had already written to Karl on the list about his style of behavior --
not his opinions. I am more concerned about maintaining a satisfactory
signal-noise
Eric raises the question of the creation of hegemony by international
capital vs national capital.
I want to first observe that to unselfconsciously discuss as we have
been doing national vs. international capital IN THE METROPOLE is one
candidate for the indicators of qualitative change.
KARL: Now I know you deliberately misrepresent what I say since you
could not possibly be quite that stupid. Anybody that reads my
message will see that you distorted what I said..
It is obvious that a cabal on this list is lloking for a pretext to
expel me form this list becuae they are
Ajit,
It is good to see that there some people on this mailing lsit who
possess some kind of principled politics.
As per ususal there are a few people on the list who wish to keep it
to themselves. THey are not intereseted in free speech. They only
pretend to.
At 02:17 PM 7/6/97 -0700, you wrote:
I have removed Karl from pen-l. Although I have had private
communications asking me to do so, I waited until the sentiment seemed
stronger. I think that we have reached that point.
This is the least entertaining part of pen-l, but at least it is an
issue
I recently came on to this list, because I was hoping for some sort of
antidote to the one sided class war that is currently raging in this country.
The class and race divide continue to grow deeper and deeper, and we are told
by those who wield power, that the solution to this is for those who
Bill Lear responds to my Sunday sermon: ... it seems that these
"public" goods must also, critically, include neutralization of the
democratic threat. So far, the beginnings of the state apparatus
that Jim outlines are succeeding splendidly at that necessary task,
as these newer global elements
Jim Craven: Interestingly, since the late
1960s, the notion of the USSR as a "Social Imperialist" formation has
been very widespread in India and many Indians denounced the
relations with the USSR as being equivalent in nature and impact as
those with the British in the past and
Louis P:
What does this mean other than there is a large Maoist contingent in India?
Rakesh raised the question of Soviet "exploitation" of India over on the
Spoons list in a "state capitalism" thread, but could provide no numbers
only a reference to a book that did. Does anybody believe
patience and toleration and then exercised your responsibility. Otherwise,
what is the point have having a moderated list at all? If, rather than
sexism, Karl had expressed equally damaging racism, would those who have
spoken in favor of allowing him to remain continue to be so inclined? Karl
I do not want to beat a dead horse, but Karl was not "censored" on the
alter of "political correctness." I had brought up my problems with Karl
before he raised hackles with his comments on homosexuality and on
feminism.
His consistently insulting style was certain to create flames, almost
India has had a certain amount of autonomy during the Cold War era but
would have had considerably more if it had played its cards right. It
still does. Recall the CTBT accord which India has not signed yet
although no effort has been spared into pressuring India.
I should also add that
== The public library system here in Milwaukee holds 14 copies of
"The first $20 million is always the hardest: a Silicon Valley
novel." This level of representation is almost unheard of
for a new author working with a less than universal theme,
and redeems the
(or at least electronic ink. Sorry. I couldn't resist.)
I had written: Currently, if I am not mistaken, India is pursuing the
free-market uber alles strategy pushed by the US/World Bank/IMF axis.
Anthony comments That India's free-market policies are being externally
orchestrated cannot be
In his famous speech to the U.N.
on the ugly machinations of U.S. Imperialism, the Defense Minister
Krishna Menon (friend of both Nehru and Chou En-Lai) alluded to the
behind-the-scenes machinations going on of which India was an
unwilling participant (the slogan in India right before the
Jim C. writes: The so-called "planning" in India is like the "planning"
one finds in the U.S. The State "plans" and "manages"--even
"constrains"--certain inter-capitalist rivalries in the interest expanded
reproduction of the system as a whole. The "State-owned/controlled" sectors
and
Michael,
Others have said it, but I will add my voice to theirs. You have done a
fine job of keeping this list moving forward (even when it does so by
stumbling) without exercising an overly heavy hand. I have been in the past
an advocate of the liberal use of the delete key as a remedy to
Even though I prefer collective shunning as a way to deal with obnoxious
characters who invade pen-l, I do not consider Michael Perelman's expulsion
of Karl Carlisle from pen-l to be "censorship." It's Michael's living room
and we're having (or trying to have) a serious intellectual discussion
KARL: I attacked sexism Billy boy. Do you know anything?
-
On 6 Jul 97 at 22:05, Bill Burgess wrote:
Shunning is better than cutting someone out of the list, but it takes
a high degree of agreement and self-discipline among listers.
I sometimes despair at
KARL: Who is most? We dont know that. Where is the democracy and
openess. This expulsion was carried out by a small cabal wo desire to
control the list for themsleves. Just imagine what these people would
be like if they had state power. Thei nastiness might make Stalin
shudder. I have a good
KARL: Ah the fascists need not have any fear with people like you
about. Clearly I must have been making a positive impact when your
politics force you to take such action. Indeed I am flattered that
that my importance is such on your piece of private mailing property
that you are forced to
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