[PEN-L:11708] Re: U.S. foreign debt

1999-09-27 Thread Bill Rosenberg
This is somewhat startling, not because it hasn't been said before, but because of who is saying it. Bill Rosenberg From: The Economist: Sept. 25th to Oct. 1st. issue American households and firms are on a borrowing spree: The private sector's financial deficit is now five times as large as

[PEN-L:11711] Re: Re: M-TH: East Timor

1999-09-27 Thread Rob Schaap
G'day all, Just thought you'd like an impression of how Oz could've sold the East Timorese intervention so most in the region would buy it, and didn't. Big boys like the US have some sort of excuse for insensitive arrogant stupidity, but what's ours? 'Globalisation' is a long road with lots of

[PEN-L:11727] Re: The saga continues

1999-09-27 Thread Chris Burford
This brought to mind an intriguing remark of Marx in Chapter 3 of Capital section 3b, which caught my eye recently. "The class-struggles of the ancient world took the form chiefly of a contest between debtors and creditors, which in Rome ended in the ruin of the plebeian debtors." Obviously

[PEN-L:11728] Re: taking stock

1999-09-27 Thread James M. Blaut
Michael: When I suggested that part of our problem is focusing too much on England, I wasn't referring to the discussion on this list. I was referring to other work, and especially Brenner, for whom thetransition from feudalism to capitalism took place, not in Europe as a whole, not in

[PEN-L:11734] Re: Free labor as a precondition for capitalism

1999-09-27 Thread Jim Devine
Louis wrote: I'm going to have much more to say about this after I've had a chance to finish reading the NLR article and "The Brenner Debate" but tentatively the problem seems to be that Brenner has a rather narrow definition of capitalism, which is what existed in the ideal case in England from

[PEN-L:11737] Free labor as a precondition for capitalism

1999-09-27 Thread Louis Proyect
The choice of definitions is pretty arbitrary. {It's sort of like deciding which language is best; I'd say it's Esperanto ;-) } However, I think what makes one definition better than another is not the definition itself, but how it fits into a broader theory. In physics, for example, the "mass"

[PEN-L:11740] Re: Role of Total Foreign Trade

1999-09-27 Thread Ricardo Duchesne
Yeah, but you're working with outmoded data. It is the best available, most recent data out there! Check the year of the sources I cited. LP: If you are serious about these questions, you should examine the chapter on slavery and primitive accumulation in Blackburn's book that I

[PEN-L:11743] Re: taking stock

1999-09-27 Thread J. Barkley Rosser, Jr.
Of course the reason that it was the Dutch East Indies was the the Dutch displaced the Portuguese in the area of most fevered search, the actual Spice Islands which are located in modern Indonesia. Of course the Dutch did not entirely displace the Portuguese, as the pathetic case of East

[PEN-L:11745] Re: units of analysis (was: wojtek)

1999-09-27 Thread Wojtek Sokolowski
At 07:03 PM 9/24/99 -0400, CHarles Brown wrote: Charles: I must say , I don't see how you avoid an abitrariness problem at the level of selecting your unit. I recall well this problem in studying anthropology when we were trying to decide how to draw boundaries around cultures or groups.

[PEN-L:11744] Re: Re: more on col'ism

1999-09-27 Thread Mathew Forstater
[T]he veiled slavery of the wage-workers in Europe needed, for its pedestal, slavery pure and simple in the new world...[C]apital comes (into the world) dripping from head to foot, from every pore, with blood and dirt. (Marx, _Capital_, Volume 1). But the accumulation of capital

[PEN-L:11751] Brenner

1999-09-27 Thread Louis Proyect
There's a difference between a _definition_ of capitalism and a universal description of how capitalism develops or a universal (stagist) prescription. (If Marx thought that it was a prescription, he was wrong.) I would guess Marx defined capitalism with the book CAPITAL, but he didn't provide us

[PEN-L:11754] Re: Blaut's critique of Brenner

1999-09-27 Thread Wojtek Sokolowski
At 01:45 PM 9/27/99 -0400, Louis Proyect wrote in reply to my: So in essence, Blaut crticizes Brenner for not being au courant with the Zeitgeist of revolutionary struggle - i.e. for not being politically correct as we would say it today - rather than for proposing a theory that cannot

[PEN-L:11757] Blaut's critique of Brenner

1999-09-27 Thread Louis Proyect
Do you really think that anyone who has a dash of common sense will believe that? Or perhaps I missed something? wojtek Wojtek, you have an obligation to try to read some of the material being discussed before posting so frequently and so provocatively on the subject. When you use a term

[PEN-L:11759] Re: Re: Re: more on col'ism

1999-09-27 Thread Jim Devine
Mat, these quotes fit with the middle of the road position I've been advocating between those strawpeople who blame capitalism simply on the agricultural revolution and those strawpeople who blame it simply on luck (i.e., Europe being lucky to conquer the rest of the world before the rest of the

[PEN-L:11760] Re: Blackburn versus Bairoch

1999-09-27 Thread Ricardo Duchesne
I really have a hard time making sense of Blackburn's numbers and how he arrive at them, from what is cited below. I went to the library but his book was out, so the passage below is what I have to rely on. Who is Blackburn arguing against? Bairoch? Which numbers has he rejected and on what

[PEN-L:11761] Blackburn versus Bairoch

1999-09-27 Thread Louis Proyect
I really have a hard time making sense of Blackburn's numbers and how he arrive at them, from what is cited below. Yes, he is arguing against Bairoch. The numbers--simply put--indicate that the amount of money invested in fixed capital in Great Britain in 1770 was equal to the profits taken

[PEN-L:11768] Re: Re: more on col'ism

1999-09-27 Thread Doug Henwood
Ricardo Duchesne wrote: Here goes the happy-middle myth again It's not the "happy middle" - nothing happy about it, in fact. It's a dia-f'in'-lectic, a mutual influence of internal and external phenomena. I really don't understand why that's controversial. I can understand controversy about

[PEN-L:11770] Re: Re: interview with Istvan Meszaros]

1999-09-27 Thread Jim Devine
At 11:28 AM 9/27/99 PDT, you wrote: I see nothing wrong with the idea of progress. It has been a key component of leftist thinking for a long time. Until recently the only critics have been conservatives. It is strange to see a conservative idea smuggled into left discourse by means of that

[PEN-L:11773] Re: Free labor as a precondition forcapitalism

1999-09-27 Thread James M. Blaut
Jim D: "Brenner is talking about the full blooming of industrial capitalism" He seems to be talking about rural England in the 15th-16th centuries. Not about full-blooming industrial capitalism. Haven't you mixed your metaphors here? Jim B

[PEN-L:11776] Re: more on col'ism

1999-09-27 Thread Ricardo Duchesne
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:52:49 -0500 From: Carrol Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [PEN-L:11772] Re: Re: Re: more on col'ism Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I too am mystified, yes, the left is full of mystified people today.

[PEN-L:11777] Re: units of analysis (was: wojtek)

1999-09-27 Thread James M. Blaut
Wojtek doesn't seem to be able to control his tendency to mystify with grand-sounding statements that mean nothing, combined with his tendency to throw out childish insults to other penners. "...construct units of analysis that allow for empirical comparisons, that is, examining the effects of

[PEN-L:11783] Re: Brenner

1999-09-27 Thread James M. Blaut
Jim D.: If you really want to discuss Brenner, you ought to read his two long _Past Present_ essays and the criticisms of them in _The Brenner Debate_ volume. The NLR paper is a polemic. You're also invited to read my refutation of Brenner's theory of the rise of capitalism ("Robert Brenner in

[PEN-L:11786] Re: Re: The Honor of Polanyi

1999-09-27 Thread J. Barkley Rosser, Jr.
The economic anthropologist, Rhoda Halperin, (_Economies across cultures_, 1988, New York: Macmillan) who was a student of one of Karl Polanyi's students, claims that he was much more of a Marxist than he appears on the surface, but that he kept his head down because of McCarthyism. He was

[PEN-L:11789] Re: Re: Re: The Honor of Polanyi

1999-09-27 Thread Jim Devine
At 05:18 PM 9/27/99 -0400, you wrote: The economic anthropologist, Rhoda Halperin, (_Economies across cultures_, 1988, New York: Macmillan) who was a student of one of Karl Polanyi's students, claims that he was much more of a Marxist than he appears on the surface, but that he kept his head

[PEN-L:11791] Re: Re: Free labor as a precondition forcapitalism

1999-09-27 Thread Charles Brown
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/27/99 04:32PM I wrote: "Brenner is talking about the full blooming of industrial capitalism" Jim Blaut writes: He seems to be talking about rural England in the 15th-16th centuries. Not about full-blooming industrial capitalism. Haven't you mixed your

[PEN-L:11792] Re: more on col'ism

1999-09-27 Thread Charles Brown
I agree with Mat, Jim D. and Doug (and seemingly Marx). But of course, disagreement made us dig into this a lot. I would add that this duel or whatever labor market continues throughout the history of capitalism, from the primitive accumulation to 1999. Capitalist mode = wage-labor +

[PEN-L:11793] Re: Re: taking stock

1999-09-27 Thread J. Barkley Rosser, Jr.
Jim, Hmmm. Well, it has seemed that you have argued for a primary role for the gold and silver accumulated out of the mines in the Americas by Indians and imported workers/slaves in the Spanish and Portuguese colonies, especially the former, in terms of Europe's gaining an edge over Asia

[PEN-L:11799] Re: Re: Re: Free labor as a preconditionforcapitalism

1999-09-27 Thread Jim Devine
At 05:34 PM 9/27/99 -0400, you wrote: Charles: I read Marx differently on this. The capitalist mode , manufacture or industrial, is defined as you say by free labor. But the industrial phase is marked by "cooperation" and "mechanization", a shift from manufacture, as discussed in Part IV

[PEN-L:11802] Another Jim Blaut paper added to his website

1999-09-27 Thread Louis Proyect
I just put another of Blaut's papers out on his new website (http://www.panix.com/~lnp3/blaut.htm), which might be actually be called a proto-website until we find permanent space for it at his university, a place he tries to stay away from as much as possible. I expect that Jim will enjoy

[PEN-L:11805] Re: ESP, was Re: Re: Re: Re: The Honor of Polanyi

1999-09-27 Thread Peter Dorman
FWIW... 1. I had an "ESP" experience once. It was very strange. I have no idea how it could have happened and I don't buy into any particular paranormal theory. It just sits out there as an anomaly. 2. When I was searching for a "reform statistics" person to do a roadshow at Evergreen this

[PEN-L:11807] Internal and external factors; Ernest Mandel

1999-09-27 Thread Louis Proyect
All this talk about the need to integrate "external" and "internal" factors in the rise of capitalism in Europe has me a bit bemused. When this thread first started--after Rod Hay claimed that colonialism was good for the people being colonized--, I answered him with some really good data from

[PEN-L:11808] Contemporary Politics and Academic Theory

1999-09-27 Thread Carrol Cox
"James M. Blaut" wrote: Its a dead issue if we don't worry about contemporary beliefs, Marxist and non-Narxist, that Europeans always have been the most intelligent, moral, and progressive people on earth , and still are today and will forever be so. That is Kosovo /IMF reasoning. Now here

[PEN-L:11809] Shenyang woos foreigners to manage firms

1999-09-27 Thread Stephen E Philion
South China Morning Post - China Monday, September 27, 1999 Shenyang woos foreigners to manage firms

[PEN-L:11815] Re: Re: Re: taking stock

1999-09-27 Thread Doug Henwood
James M. Blaut wrote: I don't understand what problem you have with my explanation of the fact that Spain and Portugal were not the beneficiaries of the colonial accumulation but Holland and England were...?? Because for gold silver to contribute to capitalist expansion there are presupposed

[PEN-L:11818] Re: Contemporary Politics and Academic Theory

1999-09-27 Thread Carrol Cox
Louis Proyect wrote: Were you wearing a tuxedo that day? Never wore one in my life. I wore a white shirt twice with an air force uniform. Tight collars make my face hurt. Carrol

[PEN-L:11821] Re: Internal and external factors; Ernest Mandel

1999-09-27 Thread Rod Hay
No good Lou. No apologies. I will meet you tonight on the Peace Bridge for a duel. The loser has to give up bagels and cream cheeze. Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] The History of Economic Thought Archives http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html Batoche Books

[PEN-L:11823] Re: Re: Free labor as a precondition forcapital

1999-09-27 Thread James M. Blaut
Steve: Hi! I don't suggest that someone can be Eurocentric on the matter of European and non-European history and not be progressive on contemporary struggles. I've looked at a lot of writing about history in various Marxist sectors, including the CPUSA, Trotskyist sectors, social democrats,

[PEN-L:11824] Re: Re: progress

1999-09-27 Thread Carrol Cox
Jim Devine wrote: Jim B. writes: I think any Marxist has to have some belief in "progress" -- its another way of saying social evolution. Capitalism will turn into socialism or barbarism. Any marxist by definition believes in the *possibility* of socialism, and it has long been commonplace to

[PEN-L:11825] ESP

1999-09-27 Thread Jim Devine
Peter Dorman wonders if the topic of ESP is relevant to progressive political economists or not. I think it is, because awhile back there was a fad among the hegemonic school of macroeconomics which embraced ESP, in effect. (This was during the silly season that centered on the Reagan years.)

[PEN-L:11829] Re: Re: The Honor of Polanyi

1999-09-27 Thread Brad De Long
I beg your pardon... Polanyi's Great Transformation is Marx lite only to the extent that Marx is Adam Ferguson crossed with German mysticism... :-) Look, I _like_ Polanyi's work and find it very revealing. (Hey, I'm a fan too!) It's only his basic theory in the Great Transformation that

[PEN-L:11827] Re: Free labor as a precondition for capital

1999-09-27 Thread Rod Hay
I would add that is a variety of third worldism that down plays workers struggles in the third world. Workers should accept lousy conditions in the united struggle against the imperialist powers. And there are brands of internationalism that cast third world workers in a support position to

[PEN-L:11822] Contemporary Politics and Academic Theory

1999-09-27 Thread James M. Blaut
Carrol: It seems that comradely types want to find some reason for disagreeing with me when no real reason exists. I'm not accusing you of ANYTHING. I was answering an uunfortunate off-the-cuff comment by Charles. "This, I have to say respectfully, is wrong: 'Thus, whether those other areas

[PEN-L:11819] Re: progress

1999-09-27 Thread Jim Devine
Jim B. writes: I think any Marxist has to have some belief in "progress" -- its another way of saying social evolution. Capitalism will turn into socialism or barbarism. "progress" has some sort of normative connotation, doesn't it? it's something people are in favor of, or oppose, depending on

[PEN-L:11820] Internal and external factors; Ernest Mandel

1999-09-27 Thread Louis Proyect
At 05:14 PM 9/27/99 -0700, you wrote: Lou. this is slanderous. And sinks lower than anything else I have seen on this list. Lou Proyect wrote: Rod Hay claimed that colonialism was good for the people being colonized Okay, I apologize. I should have used words similar to those that you used

[PEN-L:11817] olonialism

1999-09-27 Thread Sam Pawlett
Doug Henwood wrote: Yes, why was it that all that plunder didn't do much for Spanish and Portuguese industry, while England exploded? Poor Portugal, reduced to an exporter of processed agricultural goods in Ricardo's famous example. [I posted this here a while back.] There's an

[PEN-L:11816] that's it

1999-09-27 Thread michael
I am going to unsub everybody who continues with this obnoxious behavior. No more name calling. No more snide remarks. No matter how well intentioned politically you may consider such behavior, I don't think that any purpose will be served. I am starting to believe that any thread on this

[PEN-L:11814] Forum on the Internet

1999-09-27 Thread Louis Proyect
Thursday, September 30th at 6:30 p.m. WHO WILL CONTROL CYBERSPACE? The Rise of the Internet as the Preeminent Form of Mass Communication Discussion with computer scientist and journalist BARRY COHEN Member of the National Coordinating Committee of the Committees of Correspondence 122 West

[PEN-L:11813] Re: Internal and external factors; Ernest Mandel

1999-09-27 Thread Rod Hay
Lou. this is slanderous. And sinks lower than anything else I have seen on this list. Lou Proyect wrote: Rod Hay claimed that colonialism was good for the people being colonized Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] The History of Economic Thought Archives

[PEN-L:11812] Contemporary Politics and Academic Theory

1999-09-27 Thread Louis Proyect
Given this fundamental agreement with you on your political conclusions by all of us, your passion on the subject of origins seems, as Jim D suggests, to be more academic than political. Are you accusing us of lying, and secretly supporting u.s. tutelage of the third world? Carrol I didn't

[PEN-L:11810] Re: Re: Free labor as a precondition forcapital

1999-09-27 Thread James M. Blaut
Jim D: I'll not name names. But scratch a Weberian and thats what you'll find. I think any Marxist has to have some belief in "progress" -- its another way of saying social evolution. Capitalism will turn into socialism or barbarism. Cheerlessly Jim

[PEN-L:11811] Re: Re: taking stock

1999-09-27 Thread James M. Blaut
Barkley: Silver and (less importantly) gold were only significant in the 16th century and the beginning of the 17th. Slave-produced sugar wasa much more important in the 17th century. The importance of Portuguese trading activcities in Asia has been romanticized and inflated: the accumulatioin

[PEN-L:11806] Focus on the Corporation follow-up: Anti-Scofflaw Alert

1999-09-27 Thread Lisa Ian Murray
[From Robert Weissman Russell Mokhiber] An easy way to help workers. ian A few weeks ago, the Focus on the Corporation column was titled "A Law and Order Regulation for Corporations." The subject was a proposal to prevent the U.S. government from entering into contracts with companies

[PEN-L:11804] Re: Re: Free labor as a precondition for capitalism

1999-09-27 Thread Stephen E Philion
On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, James M. Blaut wrote: Charles: Its a dead issue if we don't worry about contemporary beliefs, Marxist and non-Narxist, that Europeans always have been the most intelligent, moral, and progressive people on earth , and still are today and will forever be so. That is

[PEN-L:11803] Re: Re: Free labor as a precondition forcapital

1999-09-27 Thread James M. Blaut
Jim D (but Doug might want to take notice also): Responses to two of your posts of today: (1) You're absolutely right that "factories in the field" are just as capitalist as factories in the city. But I repeat: Brennerr is talking about pre-industrial times, the 15th and 16th centiuries, not

[PEN-L:11801] Re: Re: Re: taking stock

1999-09-27 Thread Doug Henwood
J. Barkley Rosser, Jr. wrote: I grant that you have agreed that it was Holland and especially England who really carried the process forward to full-blown (but still undefined by me) capitalism, albeit according to you especially stimulated by that bullion that flowed through the hands of the

[PEN-L:11800] Re: Blaut's critique of Brenner

1999-09-27 Thread Michael Perelman
Look how this thread is degenerating! Louis Proyect wrote: Do you really think that anyone who has a dash of common sense will believe that? Or perhaps I missed something? wojtek Wojtek, you have an obligation to try to read some of the material being discussed before posting so

[PEN-L:11798] Re: The Honor of Polanyi

1999-09-27 Thread Rod Hay
I too, was a student of one of Polanyi's students (Abe Rotstein). Polanyi, shared much of Marx's analysis of history, and many of his values, but there were aspects that he did not like--the notion of class conflict for one. Polanyi would fit somewhere in a triangle with Marx, Veblen and

[PEN-L:11797] Re: Re: Re: Re: The Honor of Polanyi

1999-09-27 Thread Jim Devine
Mat writes: The work of Michael Polanyi--on history and philosophy of science--is really good. I thought his SCIENCE, FAITH, AND SOCIETY was interesting, though it was a little distressing that he seems to endorsed the idea of ESP, based on Rhine's later-discredited experiments. ("The process

[PEN-L:11796] Re: Re: taking stock

1999-09-27 Thread Michael Perelman
Ricardo Duchesne wrote: But I cant help it, I do get irritated when I carefully put forwad a view and all I get in return is a poorly constructed response, which is then paraded as a valid argument by others, with not a single person here acknowledging that I have said something that is

[PEN-L:11795] Re: Re: Re: interview with Istvan Meszaros]

1999-09-27 Thread Rod Hay
I agree with you Jim. I was reacting to the idea that any discussion of the issue was to thrown out of the discussion as a corrupting influence. Of course it is a value judgment, and like any value judgment it depends upon your set of values. Original Message Follows From: Jim

[PEN-L:11794] Re: Re: Re: The Honor of Polanyi

1999-09-27 Thread Mathew Forstater
Yes, Halperin's line on Karl Polanyi, as conveyed by Barkley, is pretty standard. I understand he had to commute to Columbia U. from Canada because of his wife's inability to locate in the U.S. due to socialist affiliations. The work of Michael Polanyi--on history and philosophy of science--is

[PEN-L:11790] Re: Free labor as a precondition forcapitalism

1999-09-27 Thread Charles Brown
"James M. Blaut" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/27/99 04:58PM Charles: This, I have to say respectfully, is wrong: "Thus, whether those other areas would have become capitalist on their own is a moot point or somewhat dead issue." Its a dead issue if we don't worry about contemporary beliefs,

[PEN-L:11788] Re: Re: Role of Total Foreign Trade

1999-09-27 Thread J. Barkley Rosser, Jr.
Ricardo, I think we would be more inclined to fall at your feet in fawning admiration if you did not keep giving us major bloopers like this last one about large mammals. Last time I checked there still are elephants in Asia. Barkley Rosser -Original Message- From: Ricardo

[PEN-L:11787] RE: Re: Free labor as a precondition for capitalism

1999-09-27 Thread Max Sawicky
Charles: This, I have to say respectfully, is wrong: "Thus, whether those other areas would have become capitalist on their own is a moot point or somewhat dead issue." Its a dead issue if we don't worry about contemporary beliefs, Marxist and non-Narxist, that Europeans always have been the

[PEN-L:11785] Re: Re: Free labor as a precondition forcapitalism

1999-09-27 Thread Jim Devine
Jim B. writes: Its a dead issue if we don't worry about contemporary beliefs, Marxist and non-Narxist, that Europeans always have been the most intelligent, moral, and progressive people on earth , and still are today and will forever be so. That is Kosovo /IMF reasoning. who, pray tell, are

[PEN-L:11784] E-mail activism

1999-09-27 Thread Charles Brown
From the scab Detroit News Sept. 26, 1999 Ford hit by e-mail protest: Salaried Workers organize to express concern over Visteon by David Welch Dearborn -Salaried workers at some Ford Motor Co. plants are oganizing an e-mail campagin to voice concern over the automaker's potential spinoff of

[PEN-L:11782] Re: Free labor as a precondition forcapitalism

1999-09-27 Thread James M. Blaut
Charles: This, I have to say respectfully, is wrong: "Thus, whether those other areas would have become capitalist on their own is a moot point or somewhat dead issue." Its a dead issue if we don't worry about contemporary beliefs, Marxist and non-Narxist, that Europeans always have been the

[PEN-L:11781] Re: more on col'ism

1999-09-27 Thread Jim Devine
I wrote: Mat, these quotes fit with the "middle of the road" position I've been advocating between those strawpeople who blame capitalism simply on the agricultural revolution and those strawpeople who blame it simply on luck (i.e., Europe being lucky to conquer the rest of the world before

[PEN-L:11780] Re: Re: Free labor as a precondition forcapitalism

1999-09-27 Thread Jim Devine
I wrote: "Brenner is talking about the full blooming of industrial capitalism" Jim Blaut writes: He seems to be talking about rural England in the 15th-16th centuries. Not about full-blooming industrial capitalism. Haven't you mixed your metaphors here? As you know, I love to mix metaphors.

[PEN-L:11779] Re: RE: binary passions

1999-09-27 Thread Charles Brown
"Max B. Sawicky" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/25/99 01:20PM Charles: Maybe if we substitute the word "exploited surplus value" for "plundered", you can see how a scientific Marxist understanding of this factor enters in. The gold was not snatched by the hands of the Spanish from the ground. It used

[PEN-L:11778] Re: Re: units of analysis (was: wojtek)

1999-09-27 Thread Doug Henwood
James M. Blaut wrote: Jim "ceteris paribus" Blaut "Cet. is rarely par." - Joan Robinson

[PEN-L:11774] Re: taking stock

1999-09-27 Thread James M. Blaut
Barkley: " Of course the reason that it was the Dutch East Indies was the the Dutch displaced the Portuguese in the area of most fevered search, the actual Spice Islands which are located in modern Indonesia. Of course the Dutch did not entirely displace the Portuguese, as the pathetic case of

[PEN-L:11772] Re: Re: Re: more on col'ism

1999-09-27 Thread Carrol Cox
Doug Henwood wrote: ... I can understand controversy about assigning relative weights to internal and external factors, but as for the principle itself, I'm mystified. I suspect we're in the presence of faith or fantasy and not evidence and argument. I too am mystified, which is one

[PEN-L:11771] more on col'ism

1999-09-27 Thread Charles Brown
"J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/25/99 05:17PM JIm, Capitalism = private ownership of the means of production as the predominant pattern in a society. So there. Take it or leave it. Barkley Rosser - Charles: Private ownership of the basic means of

[PEN-L:11769] Re: Re: interview with Istvan Meszaros]

1999-09-27 Thread Carrol Cox
Rod Hay wrote: I see nothing wrong with the idea of progress. It has been a key component of leftist thinking for a long time. Until recently the only critics have been conservatives. It is strange to see a conservative idea smuggled into left discourse by means of that great Trojan

[PEN-L:11767] Blaut's critique of Brenner

1999-09-27 Thread Louis Proyect
So please read my comments as a call for logical and empirical clarity in that debate, rather than an attempt to throw a monkey wrench into it. wojtek No, that is exactly what you are doing by raising the question of "political correctness": dragging it down to a crude and provocative level.

[PEN-L:11766] Re: GDP is unscientific and unfair for poor people.

1999-09-27 Thread J. Barkley Rosser, Jr.
J.-C., You live in what is by far the highest income part of the PRC, except for recently acquired Hong Kong to which Shenzhen is adjacent. How do I know that? Because it has a much higher per capita income than in the rest of the PRC, which is equal to per capita GDP (or gross regional

[PEN-L:11765] Re: more on col'ism

1999-09-27 Thread Ricardo Duchesne
Mat, these quotes fit with the "middle of the road" position I've been advocating between those strawpeople who blame capitalism simply on the agricultural revolution and those strawpeople who blame it simply on luck (i.e., Europe being lucky to conquer the rest of the world before the rest

[PEN-L:11764] Re: Blaut's critique of Brenner

1999-09-27 Thread Wojtek Sokolowski
At 02:44 PM 9/27/99 -0400, Louis Proyect wrote: Wojtek, you have an obligation to try to read some of the material being discussed before posting so frequently and so provocatively on the subject. When you use a term like "politically correct", you are really acting like a smart alec. Your latest

[PEN-L:11762] Re: Role of Total Foreign Trade

1999-09-27 Thread Ricardo Duchesne
Even if the cotton gin was more than a modification, I doubt you would want to hang the dynamic of the industrial revolution on it. Ricardo, The cotton gin was invented in 1793. That made for a much expanded production of cotton and a lowering of the price. Presumably this fed into

[PEN-L:11763] Re: Re: Re: Re: more on col'ism

1999-09-27 Thread J. Barkley Rosser, Jr.
Jim, I only gave you a definition because you demanded one. In fact I prefer what has been your attitude, to cite Marx's writing a three volume book called _Capital_ and note that he never provided a definition. So, I'm not going to respond to criticisms of my definition from you or Doug

[PEN-L:11758] Re: units of analysis (was: wojtek)

1999-09-27 Thread Charles Brown
Wojtek Sokolowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/27/99 01:20PM At 07:03 PM 9/24/99 -0400, CHarles Brown wrote: Charles: I must say , I don't see how you avoid an abitrariness problem at the level of selecting your unit. I recall well this problem in studying anthropology when we were trying to

[PEN-L:11756] Re: Re: Role of Total Foreign Trade

1999-09-27 Thread J. Barkley Rosser, Jr.
Ricardo, The cotton gin was invented in 1793. That made for a much expanded production of cotton and a lowering of the price. Presumably this fed into the British expansion of its mechanized textile industry. Barkley Rosser -Original Message- From: Ricardo Duchesne [EMAIL

[PEN-L:11755] Re: Brenner

1999-09-27 Thread Charles Brown
Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/27/99 02:23PM There's a difference between a _definition_ of capitalism and a universal description of how capitalism develops or a universal (stagist) prescription. (If Marx thought that it was a prescription, he was wrong.) I would guess Marx defined

[PEN-L:11752] Re: interview with Istvan Meszaros]

1999-09-27 Thread Rod Hay
I see nothing wrong with the idea of progress. It has been a key component of leftist thinking for a long time. Until recently the only critics have been conservatives. It is strange to see a conservative idea smuggled into left discourse by means of that great Trojan horse--post-modernism.

[PEN-L:11750] Re: Free labor as a precondition forcapitalism

1999-09-27 Thread Charles Brown
Although Lou and I agree on most issues, I do not agree that there is not an important role for acknowledging qualitative changes in modes of production. There may be a lot of vulgarization of this that might be termed "stagism", but to get rid of quantitative leaps or quantum leaps or

[PEN-L:11749] Re: Brenner

1999-09-27 Thread Jim Devine
I wrote: The choice of definitions is pretty arbitrary. ... However, I think what makes one definition better than another is not the definition itself, but how it fits into a broader theory. In physics, for example, the "mass" of a particle is defined by its "force" and "acceleration" (and each

[PEN-L:11748] Blaut's critique of Brenner

1999-09-27 Thread Louis Proyect
So in essence, Blaut crticizes Brenner for not being au courant with the Zeitgeist of revolutionary struggle - i.e. for not being politically correct as we would say it today - rather than for proposing a theory that cannot suffciently explain empirical facts that his own can. Am I missing

[PEN-L:11747] Re: Role of Total Foreign Trade

1999-09-27 Thread Ricardo Duchesne
Ricardo, One reason why these ratios are not as impressive in the direction you mean them to be is that the rise of industrial capitalism is all about the development of certain technologically advanced and mechanized sectors that carried forward that revolutionary process. Those

[PEN-L:11746] Re: Blaut's critique of Brenner

1999-09-27 Thread Wojtek Sokolowski
At 05:07 PM 9/25/99 -0400, Louis Proyect wrote: I just put this out as a webpage at: http://www.panix.com/~lnp3/brenner_critique.htm Here are the first few paragraphs: This article was published in ANTIPODE: A RADICAL JOURNAL OF GEOGRAPHY,26,4,(1994):351-76. ROBERT BRENNER IN THE TUNNEL OF

[PEN-L:11741] Stratfor on Financial Controls and on Malaysia

1999-09-27 Thread Wojtek Sokolowski
STRATFOR.COM Global Intelligence Update Weekly Analysis Septemer 20, 1999 World Bank Reverses Position on Financial Controls and on Malaysia Summary: The World Bank reversed its opposition to short-term capital controls and announced that Malaysia's experiment with capital controls was, in

[PEN-L:11739] The Internet Anti-Fascist: Friday, 24 Sep 1999 3:77 (#335)

1999-09-27 Thread Paul Kneisel
__ The Internet Anti-Fascist: Friday, 24 September 1999 Vol. 3, Numbers 77 (#335) __ ANTI-FASCIST ACTION

[PEN-L:11738] Fwd: Yugoslavia vs Indonesia

1999-09-27 Thread Seth Sandronsky
Hi All, I've forwarded to the list a friend's brief summary on current US legislation concerning Yugoslavia and Indonesia. Seth Sandronsky From: "Ellen Schwartz" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Yugoslavia vs Indonesia Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 08:49:34 -0700 HR 2606, the Foreign Operations

[PEN-L:11736] Re: GDP is unscientific and unfair for poorpeople.

1999-09-27 Thread Jim Devine
There's a large and growing literature on alternatives to GDP as a measure of "economic progress." For example, a San Francisco-based think-tank called REDEFINING PROGRESS measured a "Genuine Progress Indicator" which takes into account increasing inequality, increasing pollution, etc. (as

[PEN-L:11735] Re: The Honor of Polanyi

1999-09-27 Thread Jim Devine
I wrote: Though I like Polanyi's work (the empirical research and much of the interpretation, the link with anthropology, etc.), you've got to admit that his theory in THE GREAT TRANSFORMATION is in many ways "Marx Lite." (His theory seems fuzzier than Marx, though not as fuzzy as

[PEN-L:11733] RE: Re: New biography of Marx

1999-09-27 Thread Craven, Jim
One of my all-time favorite quotes from Marx comes from a letter to Arnold Ruge in 1841 (I believe but correct me if this is incorrect): "If the construction of the future and its completion for all time is not our task, all the more certain is what me must accomplish in the present. I mean, the

[PEN-L:11732] Re: [Fwd: interview with Istvan Meszaros]

1999-09-27 Thread Mathew Forstater
Progress with a capital P is a most unfortunate eurocentric illusion See these most important pieces: Richards, Dona (Marimba Ani), 1980, "European Mythology: The Ideology of 'Progress'" in M. K. Asante and A. S. Vandi (eds.): _Contemporary Black Thought_, Beverly Hills, and London: Sage. Ani,

[PEN-L:11731] Re: binary passions

1999-09-27 Thread Wojtek Sokolowski
At 05:35 PM 9/24/99 -0400, Louis Proyect wrote: The gold began to flow just when Portugal signed the Methuen Treaty with England in 1703. The treaty crowned a long series of privileges obtained by British merchants in Portugal. In return for some advantages for its wines in the English market,

[PEN-L:11730] Re: taking stock

1999-09-27 Thread Ricardo Duchesne
Michael: Finally, I would say that the main problem on the list has been the tendency to approach the subject as if it were an athletic contest with winners and losers among the participants, rather than seeing this as a collaborative effort to learn something of importance in order that we

[PEN-L:11729] BLS Daily Report

1999-09-27 Thread Richardson_D
BLS DAILY REPORT, FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 24, 1999 U.S. employers reported a total of 1,742 mass layoff events in July, resulting in 221,605 workers filing new claims for unemployment insurance, according to BLS. Mass layoffs are those involving at least 50 workers from a single establishment,

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