To Michael P. and others, I'll respond to your WTO query tomorrow, as I've
spent the last 5 hours chasing Al Gore all over Seattle with about 60 other
mischief-makers. For now here's an interesting article from India on an
aspect of the economy we don't hear much about from the WTO, economists
Now that Michael's suggested one day break is up for me, I will comment. The
question of emergent properties is important, but the reductionist approach
hinted at by same suggests that even those emergent properties can be
explained by the underlying science. In economics that would mean that
Brads Journal of Economic Perspectives just published a series of
articles on Africa. The first World Bank oriented article is a raving
right wing job. I think that I sent something from Deatons article
already. The final article of the symposium sounded very much like Max
and Brad. It is
In Toronto listen to RED ALERT RADIO on CKLN 88.1 FM Monday's at 7:15pm
http://www.web.ca/~newsoc
James M. Blaut wrote:
Don't try to
slither out from under by pointing fingers at the bad old sheiks.
Yes, they do interfere with a model of good vs. evil, don't they? But
I guess if class processes don't matter much in the core countries,
they don't matter much in the periphery either.
Doug
Doug: You haven't addressed the problem: a model of self-sustaining
capitalism without cheap oil from the Mideast, Venezuela, Nigeria, etc. Or:
broaden it: without cheap Thirdworld resources, cheap labor... Don't try to
slither out from under by pointing fingers at the bad old sheiks.
Jim posted a response to Lou's Marxism list here which probably need not have
come here.
Macdonald is new here and has not been through our flame wars. We are trying to
avoid discussing each other as persons. Macdonald, Henry was on pen-l and
became the subject of an intense flame war, much
Cool it.
"James M. Blaut" wrote:
Henwood discovers class!
James M. Blaut wrote:
Don't try to
slither out from under by pointing fingers at the bad old sheiks.
Yes, they do interfere with a model of good vs. evil, don't they? But
I guess if class processes don't matter much in the core
Jim Craven:
The only difference between Henry and most of us is not in gaining
materially through equities and other forms of speculation and
arbitrage--those of us who have retirement plans etc--but rather the
magnitudes of gains, the types of instruments from which speculative gains
are
Max Sawicky quoted:
blaut: Construct for me a model of self-sustaining capitalism without cheap
oil from the Middle East, Venezuela, Nigeria, etc.
I missed this the first time around.
The cost of production of Middle Eastern oil is just a few dollars a
barrel, but it sells for $20 or more.
I did not know about this. Tell us more.
Ian wrote:
The dispute panel's
decision against the US' Foreign Sales Corporation [at the behest of the
EU -- read Airbus] would seem to strike a pretty heavy blow at one of the
pillars of the strategic trade policy/"corporate welfare" paradigm
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Max Sawicky wrote:
And if the doom foretold of ecological disaster some
50 years away is the last straw supporting 'socialism
or barbarism' . . . well, that's rather pathetic,
isn't it? Even worse, it suggests the right politics
is to urge abstention from struggles in
Why, Max, with you, it's a matter of quality rather than the quantity of
messages.
Max Sawicky wrote:
Final salvo. Here I was pleased to see in Perelman's stats on posting that
I ranked well below the leading blabbermouths, and I'm afraid I've shot that
all to hell in just one day.
--
exactly.
We just need the concept of emergent properties.
Fits quite well with some aspects of the dialectical principle of
quantitative changes sometimes leading to qualitative ones.
Chris Burford
London
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://clawww.lmu.edu/~JDevine
Final salvo. Here I was pleased to see in Perelman's stats on posting that
I ranked well below the leading blabbermouths, and I'm afraid I've shot that
all to hell in just one day.
Mat: Perhaps I'm thick but I'm not sure what it is you're lookig for. Is it
just alternative indicators? I
Third, how should we understand the WTO in light of this analysis and the
current instabilities and crises. Assuming that the worst comes true, we
get the MAI, the Government Procurement Agreement, etc., will this
intensify competition and thus tensions, or will it enable MNCs to stamp
out
blaut: Minority people are not "quintiles."
mbs: I guess that responds to my "if you're serious" question.
Wow again.
To return to the real world, does anyone know what interesting
Christmas Ornaments are now being hung on the minimum wage bill?
Brad DeLong
Best thing right now is:
Ajit:
James M. Blaut wrote: For Brenner, the arrival of capitalism quite
magically
produces technological inventiveness. Effectively, then, he imputes
unique inventiveness to Europeans the moment they are toiuched by the
magic wand of (what he thinks of as) capitalism. I call this
Didn't Moore co-author(co-edit?)a work with Marcuse and R.Paul Wolff
*The Critique of Pure Tolerance*? Michael Hoover will know.
Sam Pawlett
Not sure why you think I'd know above, but so happens that I do. Wolff
("Beyond Tolerance"), Moore ("Tolerance and the Scientific Outlook"),
and
Nichael:
Good point.
Before I leave the thread (head held high; tail also held high), there's
one point that needs to be made.
India and some other countries were seriously underdeveloped during the
colonial period. For India this has beern documented with studies of
colonial-era famines. But
How about this test? Pick a small sample of peasant or working-class
children born 30 years ago and track their quality of life over the last
decade. Certainly mobility must be an element of progress.
--
Michael Perelman
Might I humbly offer another approach entirely? That is to select a
Suddently this list has turned to the question of whether capitaliusm is,
or is not, improving the lives of the majority of humans.
I hope everyone reading this stuff understands the POLITICAL nature of this
economistic jabber. Statistics won't resolve the issues -- we can assemble
statistics to
blaut: Minority people are not "quintiles."
mbs: I guess that responds to my "if you're serious" question.
Wow again.
To return to the real world, does anyone know what interesting
Christmas Ornaments are now being hung on the minimum wage bill?
Brad DeLong
You're right that I slipped when I implicitly equated
aggregate income growth to a decrease in misery. That
implies a distributional judgement.
If the U.S. shoots somebody and an economic effect is
transmitted from the Honduras to the U.S., the effect
is what is in question. As I said, the
blaut:
Sawicky's valiant defense of the status quo doesn't need much in the way of
an answer, mainly because the argument is so self-contradictory that even a
cultural-historical geographewr like me can see the contradictions.
mbs:
"Valiant defense of the status quo"?
So this is going to be one
How about this test? Pick a small sample of peasant or working-class
children born 30 years ago and track their quality of life over the last
decade. Certainly mobility must be an element of progress.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Max wrote: Another is the lack of such evidence supports the premise that
capitalism is sustainable for the indefinite future, so coping gets some
elevated relevance.
Max, what are you looking for? I don't know of anyone who believes in the
old theory that "capitalism is going to automatically
Perhaps I'm thick but I'm not sure what it is you're lookig for. Is it just
alternative indicators? I can't believe that you're not familiar with them.
Even if 'development is not your area.' Off the top of my head, so some of
the details may not be right:
1. Repetto had something called the
James M. Blaut wrote:
Has it evcer occurred to you that all of the elites of the world, and their
tame economists, WANT statistics that prove that things are getting better?
Yes. I spend my life studying this sort of thing, and so do lots of
other people on PEN-L. I, and I think many others
Marty Hart-Landsberg wrote:
Second, as has been widely pointed out, Brenner focuses on capitalist
competition as the primary cause of capitalism's post 1970s profit squeeze
and growth slowdown. To what extent is the global merger movement a
response to this competition and how successful do
At 12:35 PM 10/13/99 -0700, you wrote:
I would like to ask a few Brenner related questions, questions dealing
with his recent NLR piece (economics of global turbulence) on the world
economy rather than his work on the historical origins of capitalism.
First, while I have seen many references
Max Sawicky [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/13/99 03:18PM
Charles: Seems to me you leave out that capitalism has generated the biggest
wars in recorded history and archeaology. . . .
Max:
I left out that and a whole lot more, including
whether or not capitalism is a great system.
I was asking about
Doug:
There's stats and stats -- stats that prove that things are getting better;
stats that prove that things are getting worse.
Has it evcer occurred to you that all of the elites of the world, and their
tame economists, WANT statistics that prove that things are getting better?
I gave a
That was my impression too. Moore really focuses in on social relations.
His work on India, China and Japan is valuable because there is so
little of it in english (as far as I'm aware.) Of course it is somewhat
dated and open to interpretation.
Didn't Moore co-author(co-edit?)a work with
I would like to ask a few Brenner related questions, questions dealing
with his recent NLR piece (economics of global turbulence) on the world
economy rather than his work on the historical origins of capitalism.
First, while I have seen many references to the book, TURBULENCE IN THE
GLOBAL
Robin Hahnel, Z Magazine tutorials:
Two years ago the disparity between official figures indicating steady
economic growth and surveys revealing that most Americans feared more for
their economic futures that at any time since the Great Depression, gave
rise to a surprising seven part series in
Charles: Seems to me you leave out that capitalism has generated the biggest
wars in recorded history and archeaology. . . .
I left out that and a whole lot more, including
whether or not capitalism is a great system.
I was asking about something more specific,
namely, are there summary,
McCloskey is a very conservative, ex-quasi Marxist, but also critical of
neo-classical economics. Also, his sex change took considerable
courage, so maybe some of you might be interested.
The University of Chicago Press has just released _Crossing: A Memoir_
by
Deirdre N. McCloskey. Please
Max Sawicky [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/13/99 11:29AM
If you don't like GDP, give me something else that
speaks to the issue.
Charles: How about people killed by contras and death squads trained by the U.S.
military ? There is an increase in this over the last fifty years.
Max:
James M. Blaut wrote:
I hope everyone reading this stuff understands the POLITICAL nature of this
economistic jabber. Statistics won't resolve the issues -- we can assemble
statistics to "prove" whatever position we are advocating.
If I had time to do so, I'd belabor everyone with statistics
Suddently this list has turned to the question of whether capitaliusm is,
or is not, improving the lives of the majority of humans.
I hope everyone reading this stuff understands the POLITICAL nature of this
economistic jabber. Statistics won't resolve the issues -- we can assemble
statistics to
Sawicky's valiant defense of the status quo doesn't need much in the way of
an answer, mainly because the argument is so self-contradictory that even a
cultural-historical geographewr like me can see the contradictions.
"The premise that capitalism is fundamentally incapable
of delivering the
James Craven
Clark College, 1800 E. McLoughlin Blvd.
Vancouver, WA. 98663
(360) 992-2283; Fax: (360) 992-2863
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~blkfoot5
*My Employer Has No Association With My Private/Protected
Opinion*
-Original Message-
From: Katiuska hanohano
-Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 6:33 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Putting Henry Liu in context
Saul:
Now I don't know anything about Brenner, and I don't know that much about
the
Max Sawicky [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/13/99 10:01AM
The premise that capitalism is fundamentally incapable
of delivering the goods -- of managing to increase
output and income more-or-less consistently and
indefinitely -- seems to me the most compelling
part of Marxism. It may be granted that
Jim Devine wrote:
If so, it seems to me that a measure like real GDP _per capita_
would be perfect for him as a measure of capitalist development (or
even development in general).
World Bank economist Branko Milanovec, in his fascinating paper on
world income distribution (read all about it
. . . In general, Marxism in 1999 makes these kinds of observations:
1. Development is producing an ecological crisis. . . .
2. Capitalism produces alienation. . . .
3. Capitalism produces reserve armies of the unemployed. This is the
general explanation of revolutionary assaults in Latin
PS: in case anyone is losing sleep on this issue, Bob Brenner tells me that
he never attended Oxford.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://clawww.lmu.edu/Faculty/JDevine/JDevine.html
I apologize for the error. Apparently, I mistook THAT Robert Brenner for
another Robert Brenner, who turned up
Well, one additional approach is to look at how different people across
countries subjectively describe their own condition. The World Values
Survey has been attempting to do this, among other things, for some time
now.
GDP can obviously of use for many reasons, but it has long since taken
on a
I recommend taking a look at Amartya Sen's new (based on lectures to the
World Bank) "Development and Freedom". His basic thesis is that
"development" involves promoting the climate and scope for individual
freedom and exercise of agency (beyond the usual principal-agent definition
of "agency").
It's good that we agree on this issue. But my point was not about this kind
of materialism but that Marx and Engels were pushing a different _kind_ of
materialism.
I don't know, BTW, if saying that ideas are "just chemicals in the brain"
is a good way of saying it. I would restate the issue
At 10:01 AM 10/13/1999 -0400, you wrote:
The premise that capitalism is fundamentally incapable
of delivering the goods -- of managing to increase
output and income more-or-less consistently and
indefinitely -- seems to me the most compelling
part of Marxism.
But capitalism _can_ deliver the
Don't know. I'm not a development guy.
I'd like to know. Remember I said I
would have thought there would be at
least *some* indicators to show de-development
in some manner. My worship of the status quo
notwithstanding, even I would be surprized to
find no blemish on the shining status quo.
Max Sawicky wrote:
It boils down to this, if you're serious:
Is it really the case that there is a lack of summary
measures that indicate a widespread lack of development
in the periphery over the past 50 years?
Following your strictures not to question GDP as a measure of
development, I guess
Max- Aren't there some alternative indicators of basic human needs
formulated by or inspired by Amartya Sen?
I can try to dig them up. Mat
--
Don't know. I'm not a development guy.
I'd like to know. Remember I said I
would have thought there would be at
least *some*
The premise that capitalism is fundamentally incapable
of delivering the goods -- of managing to increase
output and income more-or-less consistently and
indefinitely -- seems to me the most compelling
part of Marxism. It may be granted that inequality
can be and should be the basis for radical
Max- Aren't there some alternative indicators of basic human needs
formulated by or inspired by Amartya Sen?
I can try to dig them up. Mat
-Original Message-
From: Max Sawicky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: PEN-L (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 9:12 AM
Subject:
Max Sawicky wrote:
It boils down to this, if you're serious:
Is it really the case that there is a lack of summary
measures that indicate a widespread lack of development
in the periphery over the past 50 years?
Following your strictures not to question GDP as a measure of
development, I guess
Max Sawicky wrote:
It boils down to this, if you're serious:
I take it that Max is calling me.
Is it really the case that there is a lack of summary
measures that indicate a widespread lack of development
in the periphery over the past 50 years?
Most of the data that have been thrown
Louis Proyect wrote:
Michael, there are political differences that all the parties seem to
recognize. I don't think its helpful to pretend that they don't exist.
Certainly. But is the point of politics to sharpen those differences,
or to try to come to some common understanding with people who
Jim Devine wrote:
Marx would reject Platonic epistemology, instead seeing ideas as a function
of social practice and also the physical brain, though he doesn't talk
much about physiology.
Ideas can be functions of social practice and still be just chemicals
in the brain. The philosopher
Ricardo Duchesne wrote:
Moore's *Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy* is as Marxist as
they come - unless you just want paraphrasing of Marx's work. His
whole analysis centers around the role of classes.
That was my impression too. Moore really focuses in on social relations.
His
Brad: "Do you mean that you don't believe that material standards of living
are higher and childhood mortality rates lower today in India,
Botswana, and Egypt than they were in 1975?
"Or do you mean that you don't care? That real GDP per capita
estimates and childhood mortality are not
Brad: "Do you mean that you don't believe that material standards of living
are higher and childhood mortality rates lower today in India,
Botswana, and Egypt than they were in 1975?
...Even a mainstream economist like you must have some inkling that there are
problems with GDP and other
Jim D:
I just don't agree with your theory of money for the 16th century. Sorry.
Brenner no Malthusian? He's a neo-Malthusian of sorts. Here are some
citations from my Brenner paper:
[Note]7In Brenner (1985a): "Nor can there be any question
but that the Malthusian model, in its own
Jim D:
I've known many peasants in several countries of LaTin America and
Southeast Asia whose production most certainly was NOT included in GDP. GDP
works fine for multinational activities and export-oriented activiites,
etc., but thats not what I'm talking about.
But of course I'm just a
As stupid, irrational and self-destructive a system capitalism is, it
reached new depths when it fostered the development of cattle-ranching in
Central America in the early 1970s. While beef exports generated a dramatic
rise in GDP, the pet statistic of Washington economists who believe in
It is ominous news that Austria faces new elections next year.
Having come third place after the racist Peoples Freedom Party, the
Conservative Volks Party has refused to renew the grand coalition with the
Socialist Party.
The Socialist Party has refused to make a coalition with Haider's
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