In one way, the events in Yugoslavia are a delayed version of the
anti-communist political revolutions in eastern European countries ten
years ago.
However there are other features which point to the surprising volatility
of modern states. Amplified by 24 hours news reporting, a revolutionary
Yugoslav Opposition Negotiates Surrender of Yugoslavia
by Michel Chossudovsky and Jared Israel
www.tenc.net
[Emperor's Clothes]
People may not be aware that two prominent members of the Democratic
Opposition of Serbia (DOS) just made a very important trip to Bulgaria. They
met with
Chris Burford wrote:
However there are other features which point to the surprising volatility
of modern states. Amplified by 24 hours news reporting, a revolutionary or
near revolutionary mood can sweep over a country within a matter of days.
A better analogy would be with the protests
So the CIA brought out almost the entire population of Serbia against Slobo yesterday?
Cheez, I bet they wish. We will see whether the dire predictions about the new
leadership's policies turn out to be true; I actually think that the leadership is
rather nationalistic, but time will tell.
So the CIA brought out almost the entire population of Serbia against Slobo
yesterday? Cheez, I bet they wish. We will see whether the dire
predictions about the new leadership's policies turn out to be true; I
actually think that the leadership is rather nationalistic, but time will
tell.
BLS DAILY REPORT, WEDNESDAY AND THURSDAY, OCTOBER 4 AND 5, 2000
The National Association of Purchasing Management says its index of business
activity in the nonmanufacturing sector increased by 2.0 percentage points
during September, indicating a faster overall rate of growth. NAPM said
strong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: "So the CIA brought out almost the entire population of
Serbia against Slobo yesterday? . . . "
---
LP: The revolt against Milosevic was the culmination of ten years of
subversion . . .
. . . 4. Failure of the western left to show solidarity to a country under
siege, . . .
[was: Re: [PEN-L:2694] Re: Economic revolutions]
Louis wrote:
This was not a showdown between the Yugoslav government and protestors,
but one between the Yugoslav government and imperialism. The Sixth Fleet
scheduled maneuevers off the coast of Montenegro last week just to drive
that point
does anyone know how to get a misspelled word out of Eudora's spelling
dictionary?
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
Max:
Whether anyone here likes it or not, the action against
Milo has all the signs of a popular uprising. The fact
that it may be founded on reactionary tendencies, funded
by the CIA or Kapital, or that
it greases the skids for Serbia's integration into the new
neo-liberal order means that one
Jim Devine:
On the drunkenness of the anti-Milosevic forces: we should remember after
the October revolution, Lenin and Trotsky found themselves dealing with the
mass drunkenness of the victorious workers in Petrograd. I would guess that
all revolutions involving mass mobilizations (as opposed
Louis Proyect wrote:
A better analogy would be with the protests against Salvador Allende or
Mossadegh. Such activities have less to do with CNN than they do with the
power of the dollar and the CIA.
I wish you'd stop smearing the names of Allende and the Sandinistas
by likening them to Slobo.
On 6 Oct 00, at 12:12, Louis Proyect wrote:
was elected without any "massive" voter fraud according to an op-ed piece
in the NY Times this week written by a Woodrow Wilson scholar.
Louis Proyect
Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org/
Louis,
Can you post this op-ed or give us
Louis Proyect wrote:
The Russian Revolution was the product of the most advanced thinking in
capitalist society. Every step in the direction toward seizing power was
decided on the basis of calm reflection of the relationship of forces, etc.
I agree with Lou that the defeat of Serbia is
I wrote:
On the drunkenness of the anti-Milosevic forces: we should remember after
the October revolution, Lenin and Trotsky found themselves dealing with the
mass drunkenness of the victorious workers in Petrograd. I would guess that
all revolutions involving mass mobilizations (as opposed
I wish you'd stop smearing the names of Allende and the Sandinistas
by likening them to Slobo. You just can't get your head around the
fact that Serbs don't like your man, can you?
Yes, I know you think he is "icky", Doug, but the fact remains that every
one of these uprisings in Eastern
I'm sorry to see Milosevich go. I don't think that he was a good
socialist or good leader, but I'm not sure that neoliberalism will do
the Serbian people any better.
I suspect that he would have won reelection without the opposition of
United States, both in terms of bombing the country and in
Please don't equate Milosevic, a total opportunist and rapid nationalist
(though he and his wife mouth socialist rhetoric when it's convenient),
with Allende, a socialist leader. It dirties the latter's memory.
Milosevic presided over state-owned enterprises. By all accounts, he was
determined
I wrote:
Please don't equate Milosevic, a total opportunist and rapid nationalist
(though he and his wife mouth socialist rhetoric when it's convenient),
with Allende, a socialist leader. It dirties the latter's memory.
Louis responds:
Milosevic presided over state-owned enterprises. By all
What are the recent developments that have contributed to the currency
meltdown in New Zealand and Australia?
They are two commodity-dependent states selling into markets with weak
prices. But that has been known -- is anything new happen to explain
the dollar values melting like an ice-cream
Jim D. wrote:
It's true that the ascension of neoliberalism in (and "Western"
dominance of) Serbia will rule out the realization of the potential
of state ownership.
This is the main point we should focus on, since there has been no
existing socialist alternative to the Milosevic government
In support of Lou's argument, and again analogizing to Nicaragua, where U.S.
imperialist mass murder and terror was also visited on the population, the Yugoslavian
people's vote was , by this U.S. mass terror, under extreme duress. Probably for
many Yugoslavs the main issue was not to get
The majority may not like Milosevic but they have given his party more than
a majority in recent elections. That is why you are seeing a
Western-generated uprising. Interesting that some leftists cheer the
burning of parliament buildings when the supposed aim is to impose
democracy. Nothing like
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/06/00 02:29PM
I wrote:
Please don't equate Milosevic, a total opportunist and rabid nationalist
(though he and his wife mouth socialist rhetoric when it's convenient),
with Allende, a socialist leader. It dirties the latter's memory.
Louis responds:
Milosevic
I wrote:
It's true that the ascension of neoliberalism in (and "Western" dominance
of) Serbia will rule out the realization of the potential of state ownership.
Yoshie replies:
This is the main point we should focus on, since there has been no
existing socialist alternative to the Milosevic
I wrote:
(1) state ownership of enterprises only shows the _potential_ for
socialism, not the actuality of socialism. ...
Charles writes:
CB: Nor was the Paris Commune the actuality of socialism , only a
potential for socialism, ...
of course. But socialism is _about_ the self-liberation of
I'm shocked that Krugman wrote about "dynamic pricing" in the NY Times
on Oct 4th without citing my paper, which has "electronic redlining" in
the title, along with "price fixing."
Krugman isn't keeping up with the literature. He has to make it all up
himself. What a burden.
Gene Coyle
Louis has joined the "Hail the Red Army in Afghanistan" brigade. It took 10 years for
the CIA to bring out the population of Serbia against Slobo, but they did it, though
good socialists should have offered the Milosovic regime critical support. I am
amazed. --jks
In a message dated Fri, 6
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/06/00 04:13PM
You say:
-clip-
Whether one calls the
relatively egalitarian statist economic development efforts "socialist" or
not is the kind of sterile academic debate I try to avoid.
((
Yet, I was responding to a post in which you seem to be telling Lou
At 01:21 PM 10/6/00 -0700, you wrote:
I'm shocked that Krugman wrote about "dynamic pricing" in the NY Times
on Oct 4th without citing my paper, which has "electronic redlining" in
the title, along with "price fixing."
Krugman isn't keeping up with the literature. He has to make it all up
I think Charles is a bit fuzzy about whom the Mafia candidate in Serbia was. We will
see about the new guys. But we _know_ about Slobo, a thug and murderer. --jks
In a message dated Fri, 6 Oct 2000 3:10:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Charles Brown"
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In support of
When US imperialism is not happy with a particular regime for strategic or other
reasons its strategy is as follows:
It gradually mounts a propaganda campaign involving the imperialist media against the
particular regime internationally and if possible nationally. It mounts a campaign of
Shucks, I really enjoyed them.
Joel Blau
Jim Devine wrote:
BTW, the Krugman Kronicles are on permanent hiatus.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
You could only think that if you are fuzzy about the fact that the U.S. is the Mafia
of the world.
CB
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/06/00 04:41PM
I think Charles is a bit fuzzy about whom the Mafia candidate in Serbia was. We will
see about the new guys. But we _know_ about Slobo, a thug and
Louis has joined the "Hail the Red Army in Afghanistan" brigade. It took 10
years for the CIA to bring out the population of Serbia against Slobo, but
they did it, though good socialists should have offered the Milosovic
regime critical support. I am amazed. --jks
---
Actually I have made my
Louis has joined the "Hail the Red Army in Afghanistan" brigade.
Well I'm of the "Hail the Red Army in Afghanistan" brigade: compared
to the Taliban "Really Existing Socialism" is the lesser evil, and
worth supporting...
Brad DeLong
I'm sorry to see Milosevich go.
In God's name, why? Don't *ever* be sorry to see nationalist thugs
go. Were you sorry to see Tudjman go? Were you sorry to see Mobutu
go? Were you sorry to see Galtieri go?
Brad DeLong
The US and the USSR are indeed both intolerant of dissident views, but the Yugoslav
model--which I, as market socialist defend and Louis has savaged for years as
antisocialist, essentially capitalist, a betrayal, etc, ad nauseum--as been dead in
the Yugoslav rump republic for almosta decade.
This was a Spartacus League slogan in the 1970s. Anyway, do you defend Slobo against
the new regime? I don't think so. --jks
In a message dated Fri, 6 Oct 2000 5:04:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Brad DeLong
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Louis has joined the "Hail the Red Army in Afghanistan"
I don't recall him mentioning Vickery either.
Eugene Coyle wrote:
I'm shocked that Krugman wrote about "dynamic pricing" in the NY Times
on Oct 4th without citing my paper, which has "electronic redlining" in
the title, along with "price fixing."
Krugman isn't keeping up with the
I wrote:
Whether one calls the relatively egalitarian statist economic development
efforts "socialist" or not is the kind of sterile academic debate I try to
avoid.
Charles ripostes:
Yet, I was responding to a post in which you seem to be telling Lou that
Yugoslavia is not "socialist"
The revolt against Milosevic was the culmination of ten years of
subversion, both political and economic, that included the following
elements:
1. CIA and George Soros (same thing basically) sponsorship of NGO's, B92,
etc.
Louis Proyect
Hey, don't forget National Endowment for Democracy
En relación a [PEN-L:2699] Milosevic out?,
el 6 Oct 00, a las 8:55, Jim Devine dijo:
The protestors -- who seemed to have come from all major classes,
unlike previous anti-Milosevic waves, which were primarily based in
the urban middle classes -- were fighting the Yugoslav government, led
En relación a [PEN-L:2708] Yugoslavia again,
el 6 Oct 00, a las 10:06, Michael Perelman dijo:
I do foresee one problem looming for the United States. First we lost
the Soviet Union, then Eastern Europe. North Korea seems to be coming
to some sort of agreement with the past. Iran seems
Noblesse oblige. A good one, Brad. A pity you can't see with the same
clarity other issues...
Well I'm of the "Hail the Red Army in Afghanistan" brigade: compared
to the Taliban "Really Existing Socialism" is the lesser evil, and
worth supporting...
Brad DeLong
Néstor
Sali Berisha comes under pressure to step down as head of Albania's main
opposition party after its poor showing in local elections.
The leader of the opposition Democratic Party of Albania, DPA, Sali
Berisha, is being urged to resign after the ruling Socialist's victory in
municipal
I wrote:
The protestors -- who seemed to have come from all major classes,
unlike previous anti-Milosevic waves, which were primarily based in
the urban middle classes -- were fighting the Yugoslav government, led
by a man who had committed the ultimate sin among nationalists, i.e.,
On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, Louis Proyect wrote:
the fact remains that every
one of these uprisings in Eastern Europe have left the people worse off. In
Yugoslavia, ten years ago, the Serbs decided to choose another road. Now
imperialism has made them "cry uncle".
Whence this fetishism of Eastern
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I was listening to "As it Happens", the CBC news backgrounder,
this evening on the events in Yugoslavia. Rather interesting.
Apparently Milosevic met with the Army Chiefs and Kostinica,
congratulated Kostinica on his electoral victory and announced he
was going to retire temporarily from
Dennis,
Yes, Slovenia has done quite nicely -- but then there has not been
a father figure for years. To the extent there was, he became the
president of the new Republic. To the best of my knowledge, there
has been no EU money for the environment. etc.
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
--- Forwarded message follows ---
Date sent: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 10:24:46 -0700
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
From: Sid Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Why all is not well with globalization - The Vancouver Sun
The
Paul, aren't there other examples about the US defending figure head
presidents vs. strong legislatures when it suited them?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Meanwhile, as Ken Hanly has posted, his party
retains an absolute majority in the legislature -- democratically
elected -- and, it is noted,
Michael,
I am sure there are. But what is the relevance in this case?
Paul
Date sent: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 18:22:42 -0700
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[PEN-L:2747] Re: Yugoslavia
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Send reply
I can't recall the case, but someone will remember. A compliant president
was elected who wanted to go against the parliament, but the US demanded that
the authority be given to the president. I suspect that the same will happen
in Yugoslavia.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael,
I am sure
The Economist has a fairly extensive survey of the new economy.
http://www.economist.com/surveys/showsurvey.cfm?issue=2923CFID=108004CFTOKEN=88909881
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Original Message
Subject: Fw: From Bill Blum ("Killing Hope")
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 22:16:40 -0400
From: Jay Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:@bypass.com;
We might get a better idea of what's taking place in the streets of
They also shoved through all sorts of laws that liberated women and
alleviated some aspects of male dominance
and traditional repression of women. They were far superior to the Talaban
in my estimation. Tradition is usually if not always reactionary. Socialism
from above is better than no
I concur with Brad. I can't fathom Justin on these issues. Of course the
record of the Red Army in Afghanistan is not pristine but how is it any
worse than the many opposition forces; and how can these issues even be
considered independent of the context of Western involvement and extensive
I have just put a new Uncommon Sense on our web site: "Washington's New
Poor Law: Welfare 'Reform's' Legacy and Real Welfare Reform" by Sheila
Collins. Another is ready and will be up soon--"Social Security Is Not
Just for Seniors" by Jean Bandler. If you can make use of it now, let me
know. June
This was a Spartacus League slogan in the 1970s. Anyway, do you
defend Slobo against the new regime?
No...
Now, a quick question. Several on this list who are otherwise
perceptive and critical thinkers have accepted, and indeed
broadcast, the view that Milosevic is an agent of the devil, etc.
What evidence does anyone on this list have that he is evil, anti-
democratic, satanic etc. other than
En relación a [PEN-L:2748] Re: Re: Yugoslavia,
el 6 Oct 00, a las 20:26, [EMAIL PROTECTED] dijo:
Michael:
Paul, aren't there other examples about the US defending figure head
presidents vs. strong legislatures when it suited them?
Paul:
Michael,
I am sure there are. But what
En relación a [PEN-L:2740] Re: Re: Milosevic out?,
el 6 Oct 00, a las 15:29, Jim Devine dijo:
I wrote:
The protestors -- who seemed to have come from all major classes,
unlike previous anti-Milosevic waves, which were primarily based
in the urban middle classes -- were fighting the
Eugene Coyle wrote:
What are the recent developments that have contributed to the currency
meltdown in New Zealand and Australia?
They are two commodity-dependent states selling into markets with weak
prices. But that has been known -- is anything new happen to explain
the dollar values
maybe more of the masses of working class people in Yugo-Serbia
will use these big splits/battles in the Yugo ruling class now to be
able to organize their own
class forces against the huge exploitation and oppression they under-go.
They see thru state capitalists turned market stalinists
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