No fair. The EF Schumacher crowd are pretty non-judgemental on this sort of
issue. Appropriate technology basically just means technology that can
be maintained and repaired without requiring an already existing industrial
society; those wind-up radios certainly count.
I worry that you may be
You don't have much choice, do you? Any more than I have a choice in
trusting my physician or carpenter because s/he's an expert. I mean, sorry,
guy, that's what expertise means, other people know more than we do about
something.
A quick tip to Pen-L members; if your doctor sounds anything
The bankruptcy reform bill--the first legislation introduced under the Bush Admin--has been a cash cow for Dems and Repubs. Indeed, Sen Dashle is a Dem from SD and is an effective advocate of his hometown company: Citibank. But that is another story.
When I testified against the bill at the 2/01
At 11:43 PM -0500 7/28/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Anyone who has followed
the experience of the 'green revolution' (sic) knows about the
problems that it has produced and the fact that it has exacerbated
class problems by displacing the poor farmers and giving control to
the rich. The
All his stuff is very analytical. His big book is Against Capitalism
(Westview 1996). He has a forthcoming book called Beyond Capitalism that
will be shorter and take into account subsequent criticisms. He has a lot of
papers discussing aspects of the model, for example, in an a Bertell Ollman
ORIGINAL:
i) A book about Chinese health care, Away with all pests, describes how cleaning
people contributed to Chinese medicine in
dialogue with the doctors ...
ii) I actually have a small statuette of Norman Betheune on my filing cabinet,
COMMENT: I think the book in question was by Joshua
Ulhas, could recommend a good book that describes India's distinctive, and
recently fairly successful, non-export-led development path? And perhaps
as well an intelligent (rather than cookie-cutter ideological) critique of
the limits of same?
And if anyone else wants to chime in with
Paul wrote: First of all, like Michael, I thought most of it made a lot of sense.
Anyone who has followed the experience of
the 'green revolution' (sic) knows about the problems that it has produced and the
fact that it has exacerbated class problems
by displacing the poor farmers and giving
From: Justin Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
As to Carl's remark, why is it unjust to have expert judges (in the legal
system) who are empowered to definitively resolve disputes by entering
enforceable orders? Surely you are not one of those people who believe that
we can get along without law and
Hari:
iii) Finally, I use this post to raise a matter re Project's article. To
Project, I would simply say that the whole problem of
the comprador- national-bourgeoisie divergence is ignored by him -
probably for profound ideological reasons. However I
suspect that no sense can be made of the
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Why not fight holders of class power and patriarchal power instead?
Because Western NGOs and foundations wouldn't like you so much, and
fly you around the world to preach the virtues of rootedness.
Doug
All his stuff is very analytical. His big book is Against Capitalism
(Westview 1996). He has a forthcoming book called Beyond Capitalism that
will be shorter and take into account subsequent criticisms. He has a lot of
papers discussing aspects of the model, for example, in an a Bertell Ollman
Does anyone know of a (preferably on-line) source that
compares social programs across countries -- like unemployment,
pensions, health care?
Ellen Frank
Davies, Daniel wrote:
No fair. The EF Schumacher crowd are pretty non-judgemental on this sort of
issue. Appropriate technology basically just means technology that can
be maintained and repaired without requiring an already existing industrial
society; those wind-up radios certainly count.
You don't have much choice, do you? Any more than I have a choice in
trusting my physician or carpenter because s/he's an expert. I mean,
sorry,
guy, that's what expertise means, other people know more than we do about
something.
A quick tip to Pen-L members; if your doctor sounds anything
Of course, there is expertise, but experts can be very wrong -- especially
if they go unchallenged. Ask Ken Lay.
His problem wasn't bad expert advice. It was sheer crookedness. Of course
there is bad expert advice. You wanna see my stock portfolio? It's a
testament to bad expert advice.
His problem wasn't bad advice. The problem of many other people was that
they trusted his expertise.
On Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 02:26:06PM +, Justin Schwartz wrote:
Of course, there is expertise, but experts can be very wrong -- especially
if they go unchallenged. Ask Ken Lay.
Title: RE: [PEN-L:28737] Re: Re: Re: Expertise
It's important to remember that expertise is not a one-dimensional variable. The practical and concrete knowledge of nurses and physician's assistants may be quite different in kind from the more theoretical and journal-based knowledge of MDs, so
Perhaps she (Shiva) simply has wrong ideas. And if the ideas are wrong,
it is best, I should think, to simply critique the ideas rather than
speculate on her conscious or unconscious motives.
I think it in general a bad idea (allowing for bursts of temper other
personal idiosyncracies) to
Yes, it was.
On Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 08:36:43AM -0400, Hari Kumar wrote:
ORIGINAL:
i) A book about Chinese health care, Away with all pests, describes how cleaning
people contributed to Chinese medicine in
dialogue with the doctors ...
ii) I actually have a small statuette of Norman
[Ken Lay's] problem wasn't bad advice. The problem of many other people
was that
they trusted his expertise.
OK, there are crooked experts, as well as as incompetent ones. You are
telling me this because you think I don't know it? Or you are reminding
other people of this easily
It's important to remember that expertise is not a one-dimensional
variable. The practical and concrete knowledge of nurses and physician's
assistants may be quite different in kind from the more theoretical and
journal-based knowledge of MDs, so we can't say that the latter have twice
as much
I wasn't talking about the author. But the book is about ol' Norman, if I
recall. jks
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:28760] Re: Bethune or J.Horn? In digest 226
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:51:18 -0700
Yes, it was.
On
Michael Pollak wrote:
Ulhas, could recommend a good book that describes India's distinctive, and
recently fairly successful, non-export-led development path? And perhaps
as well an intelligent (rather than cookie-cutter ideological) critique of
the limits of same?
Michael, I am not sure
everybody knows it retrospectively; the business press during its stage of
breathless admiration for Enron did not know it.
On Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 02:51:57PM +, Justin Schwartz wrote:
[Ken Lay's] problem wasn't bad advice. The problem of many other people
was that
they trusted his
Title: democracy
Psychopaths are therefore found not just in prisons, but in any situation where at some stage it may be helpful to personal progression to be able to ignore or een to utilize the feelings of others. Leaders in business, in government and in any organization may sometimes be
Justin Schwartz wrote:
Speaking of expertise, my computer won't start. It tells me Non
System Disk
or Disk Error. Replace and strike any Key when ready. Not only can't
I find
the any key (usually the enter key will do) but I don't have a
non-system disk (or any other diskette) in my PC.
Carrol Cox wrote:
Perhaps she (Shiva) simply has wrong ideas. And if the ideas are wrong,
it is best, I should think, to simply critique the ideas rather than
speculate on her conscious or unconscious motives.
I think it in general a bad idea (allowing for bursts of temper other
personal
Thanks Robert for filling us in on the details.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chico, CA 95929
530-898-5321
fax 530-898-5901
I've scanned the footnotes and definitions for data for US local government
finances, but can't figure out:
Do state and the federal govt. pay property taxes to local governments in
the US? Or, do they pay a grant in lieu of property taxes (as in Canada),
and if so, is it included under
Title: agricultural degradation
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-pyle29jul29.story?null
COMMENTARY
Grim Reaping
The industrialization of agriculture is killing the land
By GEORGE B. PYLE
July 29 2002
Even when city folks notice the dwindling population of rural
...incompetent ones[experts]
Title: RE: [PEN-L:28739] Re: Re: Expertise
JKS: Shane thinks that most judges are just tools of the capitalist class who do
their bidding. ... Even in the case of Justice Rehnquist, the charge is unfair. He just thinks
along their lines.
it's a mistake to think in such individualistic
http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2001-12/04shiva.cfm
December 04, 2001
Doha: Saving Wto, Killing Democracy
By Vandana Shiva
Doha was described by Robert Zoellick, the U.S. Trade Representative, as
having removed the stain of Seattle. Seattle stands as a historical
watershed, through
...incompetent ones[experts]
Don't be silly. Experts are not by definition competent. They are persons
with special training and knowledge. In law we distinguish between an
expert's qualifications, and whether his opinion is based in fact and
informed by scientific method, as well as
It's not I but Shane who is thinking in individualistic terms. My point is
precisely that there is some tendency for thesystem to select Rehnquists who
don't have to be told what to think. The federal judiciary is of course
life-appointed and so more resistant to electoral pressures than many
Title: RE: [PEN-L:28698] Saudi Arabia
His brother Prince Naif, head of the Interior Ministry, has led a crackdown on the Saudi media in the wake of the demonstrations to stop any word of them leaking out.
speaking of oxymorons, how could the Minister of the Interior be a naif?
Jim Devine
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/15630
Writing about expertise, I think that we should recall how Alfred Marshall
revamped econ. education -- making it more mathematical, even though he
himself rejected the idea that math was useful for economics -- just to
make it more difficult for outsiders to comment on economic matters.
--
: Expertise
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:29:06 -0700
Writing about expertise, I think that we should recall how Alfred Marshall
revamped econ. education -- making it more mathematical, even though he
himself rejected the idea that math was useful for economics -- just to
make it more difficult for
Title: RE: Expertise
Michael Perelman: Writing about expertise, I think that we should recall how Alfred Marshall revamped econ. education -- making it more mathematical, even though he himself rejected the idea that math was useful for economics -- just to make it more difficult for
that expertise is sometimes nothing more than the artificial creation of
hierarchy.
On Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 05:41:18PM +, Justin Schwartz wrote:
: Expertise
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:29:06 -0700
Writing about expertise, I think that we should recall how Alfred Marshall
revamped econ.
At 02:20 PM 07/29/2002 +, you wrote:
Well, we have already established that I am an arrogant, elitist, right
wing tool of the bourgeoisie, no socialist, and a general son of a bitch,
so pay no attention to me. You go find a doctor who knows less than you do
about medicine. I gather that's
Title: the pope
is it true that in Toronto, the Pope was overheard to say Why must we always focus on the bad priests instead of the 65 percent of them who would never do anything like that?
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
As a digression into Lenin quotology, I was just leafing through an old
copy of Medvedev's book on The October Revolution, and at the end he quotes
an interesting bit from Lenin's article on the fourth anniversary of Soviet
power, where Lenin freely admits he is engaging in reformism and that
No. It was 6.5%.
On Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 11:55:27AM -0700, Devine, James wrote:
is it true that in Toronto, the Pope was overheard to say Why must we
always focus on the bad priests instead of the 65 percent of them who would
never do anything like that?
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sun, 28 Jul 2002, Ulhas Joglekar wrote:
I don't see at all how an alternate development of the countryside
contradicts advanced industrial production. This seems like a false
dichotomy.
Michael, I am not sure this is true of industrial crops such as cotton,
oilseeds, sugarcane
If, as Justin argues, Most judges, at least federal ones that I know of,
enforce the law fairly (i.e. evenhandedly), how come e.g. a
disproportionate number of US blacks end up in jail ? Of course, you can
make sociological arguments that more blacks commit crimes or more blacks
are poor,
On Sun, 28 Jul 2002, Ulhas Joglekar wrote:
France preserved its peasant economy along with industrial advancement
in the 19th century. Marx said in the 18th Brumaire those peasants
were at a cul-de-sac of history. But they were still around a century
later. And then they won
I once organized a panel with Robert Pollin, Larry Summers,
Robert Eisner, and Benjamin Friedman. The weird part was when
Summers said that he had enough anti-Americanism. He didn't lash
out at Robert Pollin, but at Friedman, who was worried about
excessive debt. Now he thinks that Summers
I work (or used to) as an expert witness. I have had a lot of success in
persuading Federal and State judges and various kinds of commissioners to
accept my recommendations. And I've had a lot of failures. In front of
commissions the acceptance rate jumps if there are a lot of angry people in
On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Ulhas Joglekar wrote:
Ulhas, could recommend a good book that describes India's distinctive,
and recently fairly successful, non-export-led development path?
Michael, I am not sure what period you have in mind.
I'm sorry, I should have been clearer. I'm thinking of
That would imply one in 15 priests is a bad priest. I'll bear it in mind,
just in case.
Jurriaan Bendien wrote:
That would imply one in 15 priests is a bad priest. I'll bear it in mind,
just in case.
I'm afraid you didn't notice the tongue-in-cheek numbers. One in 15 is a
good priest. :-)
Carrol
I think most professions suffer from the mandarin disease (named after
the
fact that the Imperial Chinese Mandarins required that new bureaucrats be
excellent at calligraphy, even though it didn't help them rule).
More useful than many skills, btw, it was part of just being an educated
Expertise also occurs in some specific context. Today's industrial medicine
means that your doctor has at most 15 minutes to spend figuring out what
your problem is. Because of the current mind/body split ideology, chances
are that your doctor will never touch you (if he/she can help it).
In a message dated 7/29/02 10:55:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
We should never forget that just
because we experts know more than they do, their insights can be
extremely useful and even superior.
Experts and authorities are needed everywhere, but as Jim Devine,
If, as Justin argues, Most judges, at least federal ones that I know of,
enforce the law fairly (i.e. evenhandedly), how come e.g. a
disproportionate number of US blacks end up in jail ? Of course, you can
make sociological arguments that more blacks commit crimes or more blacks
are poor,
But that's not expertise, right, if it's nothing more than that. Expertise
means knowing how to do things, special skills or knowledge. Maybe your
example shows the misuse of real expertise (math skills) to obfuscate,
maintain hierarchy, etc., rather than to promote economic analysis. jks
Of course, in politics, the main body of experts
is the revolutionary party guiding society.
Gaak. That is exactly where there and can be no expertise, just politics.
When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn?
_
MSN
Title: RE: [PEN-L:28790] Re: B. Friedman on Stiglitz
Summers was lashing out at B. Friedman because the latter was highlighting _government_ debt? is the infamous session where Summers went on and on about patriotism?
JD
-Original Message-
From: Michael Perelman
To: [EMAIL
Theses on Feuerbach III
The materialist doctrine concerning the changing of circumstances and
upbringing forgets that circumstances are changed by men and that the
educator must himself be educated. This doctrine must, therefore, divide
society into two parts, one of which is superior to
Title: RE: [PEN-L:28794] Re: the pope
the quote was: Why must we always focus on the bad priests instead of the 65 percent of them who would never do anything like that?
this says that 35/100 or 7/20 priests are bad.
BTW, it's rumored that Arthur Andersen has said Why must we always focus
He was describing debt in general. Yes, Summers raved about patriotism.
On Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 01:48:29PM -0700, Devine, James wrote:
Summers was lashing out at B. Friedman because the latter was highlighting
_government_ debt? is the infamous session where Summers went on and on
about
Title: RE: [PEN-L:28795] Re: RE: Expertise
Justin writes: Legalese is awful. It's not even English. But there were striitings in America to make it more like English quite a while ago. The Legal realists, like Jerome Frank and Thurman Arnold, were quite good writers, following in the manner
I would add one other dimension to the list of problems that Scott
mention: arrogance that often leads to disaster for all concerned, which
is why I mentioned Dr. Lay.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL
I would add one other dimension to the list of problems that Scott
mention: arrogance that often leads to disaster for all concerned, which
is why I mentioned Dr. Lay.
--
The Greeks had a word for that . . . . jks
_
Send and
This seems to offer material for both sides on the debate over
experts
Carrol
Subject: A World Awash In Hormones
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:46:58 -0700
From:Phil Gasper [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Published on Monday, July 29, 2002 by
RE: [PEN-L:28795] Re: RE: Expertise
- Original Message -
From: Devine, James
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED] '
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 1:56 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:28804] RE: Re: RE: Expertise
Justin writes: Legalese is awful. It's not even English. But there were striitings in
America to
make
science does not think -- martin heidegger
(thought i would throw that one out and see what kind of fish
it attracts ;-)).
--ravi
Devine, James wrote:
the quote was: Why must we always focus on the bad priests instead
of the 65 percent of them who would never do anything like that?
this says that 35/100 or 7/20 priests are bad.
You haven't noticed Michael Pereleman's little addition to your original
post. He
- Original Message -
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 2:01 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:28805] Re: RE: Re: B. Friedman on Stiglitz
He was describing debt in general. Yes, Summers raved about patriotism.
Please
Justin Schwartz wrote:
Legalese is awful. It's not even English. But there were striitings in
America to make it more like English quite a while ago. The Legal
realists, like Jerome Frank and Thurman Arnold, were quite good writers,
following in the manner of their master Justice
July 29, 2002
Peace in Sudan opens window of oil opportunities
The Sudanese government and rebel groups in control of the country's south
signed an interim deal last week that is hoped to bring an end to a 20-year
civil war that has cost two million lives. Following the signing of the
At 05:13 PM 07/29/2002 -0400, you wrote:
science does not think -- martin heidegger
(thought i would throw that one out and see what kind of fish
it attracts ;-)).
--ravi
Hard to say without context; but normative science is more like a vetted
bureaucratic procedure ...hence its
- Original Message -
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 2:04 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:28806] Re: Re: RE: Expertise
I would add one other dimension to the list of problems that Scott
mention: arrogance that often leads to disaster for
The Friedman/Nell exchange in NYRB, linked from the BF on Stiglitz page,
also has BF in the position of deficit hawk. Nell gets in some good
points. Unfortunately, NYRB is charging for peeking at their archives
now, is that right?
-Original Message-
From: Michael Perelman [mailto:[EMAIL
Doha was described by Robert Zoellick, the U.S. Trade Representative, as
having removed the stain of Seattle. Seattle stands as a historical
watershed, through which citizens mobilised democratically to respond to
free-trade treaties and agendas of corporate globalisation.
1.
Sueddeutsche
Could you please describe in plain English the curtailment of my
liberties?
Ian
The judge asked him what time it was
Reuben said, Five to ten,
The Judge said, That's exactly what you get
--Hurricane (Bob Dylan)
Or as we say in Shytown, you all fucked, cuz.
jks
Last night I was re-reading Friedman's book The Day of Reckoning.
Every chapter starts with a quote from the Old Testament on the
moral hazards of borrowing. He really does seem to be talking more
about the international asset position of the US than about the public
debt, but he never makes
Thus I don't think you will be able
to write all laws and contracts in simple English; the effort of protecting
against other lawyers will prevent it if nothing else. Though I'm sure that
it can be done a lot of the time.
A lot of law is technical and there are centuries of technical
Ellen Frank wrote:
Last night I was re-reading Friedman's book The Day of Reckoning.
Every chapter starts with a quote from the Old Testament on the
moral hazards of borrowing. He really does seem to be talking more
about the international asset position of the US than about the public
debt,
- Original Message -
From: Justin Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 2:52 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:28819] Re: Re: RE: Re: RE: Expertise
Could you please describe in plain English the curtailment of my
liberties?
Ian
The judge asked him what
if i may say something as the resident slow thinker: things are
whizzing by at a good speed on this thread but it seems to me
that certain things are not clear (at least to me!). the examples
and analysis (offered by michael p. and others) seems to touch
upon the dangers of letting experts
Title: RE: [PEN-L:28811] Re: RE: Re: RE: Expertise
Could you please describe in plain English the curtailment
of my liberties?
Ian
you have the right to remain silent...
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/sgabriel/post_structuralist_firm.htm
At 24/07/02 09:40 -040 Louis Proyect wrote:
Chris Buford:
But it is not the case that there is nothing in the EZ that conforms to
the progressive interests of working people, just because it is a victory
for the ruling class. For one thing they generally appreciate the
benefits of a large
Title: FW: No Joke! Official federal web site for reporting terrorists
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
-Original Message-
From: Dana Lubow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 1:41 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
Title: Official federal web site for reporting terrorists
[here's a cleaner version]
Here's the official web site form for reporting any of those
terrorists that are hanging around your neighborhood. Joe McCarthy would
be proud!
https://www.ifccfbi.gov/complaint/terrorist.asp
JD
Chris Burford quoting Lenin:
From their daily experience the masses know perfectly well the value
of geographical and economic ties and the advantages of a big market
and a big state.
May 1914
This is the entire paragraph, which comes from chapter 5 of The Right
of Nations of
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:28830] Re: Re: Re: The new EU
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:30:46 -0400
Chris Burford quoting Lenin:
From their daily experience the masses know perfectly well the value of
geographical and
In a message dated 7/29/02 1:49:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Of course, in politics, the main body of experts
is the revolutionary party guiding society.
Gaak. That is exactly where there and can be no expertise, just politics.
When will they ever
Congress Steps Up to Force Lawyers To Look Closer at Corporate
Clients
By James V. Grimaldi
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, July 29, 2002; Page E01
While the American Bar Association talked to death proposed ethics
rules for lawyers who stumble upon corporate fraud, the wave of Wall
Street
July 29, 2002
U.S. to Borrow $76 Billion
WASHINGTON (AP) - The government, reacting to a worsening financial
picture, said Monday that it plans to tap $76 billion from the
credit markets this quarter to compensate for lower income-tax
payments and increased spending.
The Treasury Department's
The Times of India
SATURDAY, JUNE 29, 2002
UNDP urges political reform in China
AFP
BEIJING: A scathing UN-sponsored report published Friday urged the Chinese
government to implement political reforms if it is to head off a mounting
environment catastrophe as well as growing social unrest.
Michael Pollak :
On Sun, 28 Jul 2002, Ulhas Joglekar wrote:
Yes, but there is a viewpoint which attributes the relative backwardness
of French industry to the presence of French peasant economy.
I'm not sure I follow. By 1970 France had certainly reached the point
every developing
if i may say something as the resident slow thinker: things are
whizzing by at a good speed on this thread but it seems to me
that certain things are not clear (at least to me!). the examples
and analysis (offered by michael p. and others) seems to touch
upon the dangers of letting experts
- Original Message -
From: Justin Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
if so, is
that form of truth meaningful in a general context?
What does that mean? There is one one form of truth, which is, as
Aristotle
said long ago, to say of that which is, that it is,a nd that which
is not,
From: Ian Murray [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:28838] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Expertise
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 20:38:13 -0700
- Original Message -
From: Justin Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
if so, is
that form of truth
Could you please describe in plain English the curtailment of my
liberties?
Ian
The judge asked him what time it was
Reuben said, Five to ten,
The Judge said, That's exactly what you get
--Hurricane (Bob Dylan)
My bad. It's the embarassing song Joey, a tribute to Crazy Joe Gallo. Same
1 - 100 of 104 matches
Mail list logo
