is Matt Taibbi when you need him.
-Original Message-
From: joanna bujes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:34:47 -0800
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Milan Rai on UN occupation of Iraq
Chris, I think you won.
Joanna
Louis Proyect wrote:
Chris Doss wrote:
I
Actually it's the kind of pompous Western bloviating the eXile likes to mock.
Dagestanis are just like Kurds! I don't know Dagestan from a hole on the ground,
but they must be just like Kurds, cause, well, I don't know, they just are! They
speak Dagestani there in Dagestan, they shore do!
From: Louis Proyect
-clip-
Marx and Engels supported the cause of Irish independence long before
Marxists like Connolly were involved. They did not extract promises from
bourgeois nationalists that they would expropriate the expropriators.
CB: We are in the U.S., the imperialist power that
I believe I will get a yahoo account.
To answer the question, the issue is not Chechen independence per se, but what Free
Ichkeria did with its independence and what it is believed it would do again given
the chance; devolve into a militant Islamist failed gangster state specializing in
Sabri Oncu wrote:
Here is one input from one of those from that part of
the world, who is not terrified to speak his mind.
Fuck you Americans!
Get out of our part of the world!
Immediately!
From this morning's local (Bloomington, Il) newspaper (under the
headline: U.S. Marines fight
Chris Doss wrote:
To answer the question, the issue is not Chechen independence per se,
but what Free Ichkeria did with its independence and what it is
believed it would do again given the chance; devolve into a militant
Islamist failed gangster state specializing in banditry, a kidnap/slave
trade
And Russia's reaction to being invaded (twice) should have been what? How should
Russia react to thousand of its citizens being kidnapped and tortured? What should the
Dagestani reaction be to attempts to force it to become a medieval Islamist state?
Reply:
If it is unacceptable to you, then
-Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:10:24 -0500
I should probably clarify that the First and Second Chechen Wars are completely
different matters. The first was a bone-headed move by Yeltsin against a national
Let's be clear, the determinants of policy, and anti-policy, are not
polls imaginary or real that are conducted by pollsters. What somebody
says a sample of the Iraqi people want or wanted had nothing to do with
the invasion by the United States. What somebody now says the Iraqi
people want has
dmschanoes wrote:
Supporting national liberation, or a self-determination devoid of a
specific class content of that determination, i.e. a program that
includes expropriation of the privatized, now and future, means of
production, is ultimately meaningless.
Not really. The Comintern backed the
dmschanoes wrote:
his war was precipitated by capital's need to destroy parts of the
productive apparatus and maintain a high price for oil.
I hear people say things like this and I wonder how they know. How do
you know this? Documentary evidence, or do you just *know*?
Doug
The Caucasus wars is fundamentally
over control of oil nothing to do with fighting medievalism.
_
That much of what LP writes is almost correct. It is fundamentally over
control of the transport of oil, and for that reason alone the secession
of Chechnya, its
PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Milan Rai on UN occupation of Iraq
dmschanoes wrote:
Supporting national liberation, or a self-determination devoid of a
specific class content of that determination, i.e. a program that
includes
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Milan Rai on UN occupation of Iraq
dmschanoes wrote:
his war was precipitated by capital's need to destroy parts of the
productive apparatus and maintain a high price for oil.
I hear people say things like this and I wonder how they know. How do
you know this? Documentary
dmschanoes wrote:
Well, we know where the Comintern's support of the Kuomingtang took the
workers revolution, that's for sure.
Excuse me? The problem was not support for the KMT, but the failure of
the CP to maintain an independent presence, including a newspaper. Even
Trotsky backed the KMT, just
After the Soviet Union collapsed, 14 regions become independent nations.
After Dzhokhar Dudayev was elected president of Chechnya, he declared
independence. But Boris Yeltsin refused to accept this and sent in
troops. After Chechen rebels drove off the Russian troops, a full-scale
invasion was
Chris Doss wrote: Lord. Dagestan is PART of Russia.
That's what Ankara says about Kurdestan.
--
The Marxism list: www.marxmail.org
this with a balanced piece of analysis on August 18).
http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/4546.html
-Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:07:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Milan Rai on UN occupation of Iraq
Chris Doss wrote: Lord
Chris Doss wrote:
It is clear why Russia could not have tolerated Chechnya being used
indefinitely as a safe haven for such forces and as a potential base for
further attacks on Russia. For how long would the United States tolerate
such a situation in a neighboring state?
This is exactly the
Chris Doss wrote:
I say: It is unreliable because the country is lawless. Now, why would
the country be lawless. I wonder if it might have something to do with
bands of Islamoid gunmen running around invading adjoining areas of
Russia and kidnapping people. Nah, couldn't be.
Reply: Well, we have
Blagov is usually quite good. I am surprised to see him get so monocausal.
Here, he writes:
It has been often said that disputes over oil transit are behind the
tragedy in unruly Chechnya - seen as the biggest security threat in the
region.
Russia has been keen to use its Baku-Novorossiisk
Since you clearly don't want to read the actual poll, let me supply
some highlights for you. These results don't sound like they're
coming from people too terrified to speak their minds.
Doug
Here is one input from one of those from that part of the world, who
is not terrified to speak his mind.
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Under such conditions, you can't
trust any Western opinion polls of Iraqis to reflect Iraqi opinions
accurately, for Iraqis can't speak their minds freely:
They don't seem shy about expressing their opinions to reporters for
foreign wire services or newspapers or even
Chris, I think you won.
Joanna
Louis Proyect wrote:
Chris Doss wrote:
I say: It is unreliable because the country is lawless. Now, why would
the country be lawless. I wonder if it might have something to do with
bands of Islamoid gunmen running around invading adjoining areas of
Russia and
At 1:06 PM -0500 3/29/04, Doug Henwood wrote:
Under such conditions, you can't trust any Western opinion polls of
Iraqis to reflect Iraqi opinions accurately, for Iraqis can't speak
their minds freely:
They don't seem shy about expressing their opinions to reporters for
foreign wire services or
On Monday, March 29, 2004 at 13:16:10 (-0500) Yoshie Furuhashi writes:
...
Yes, more than 1,000 supporters of cleric Muqtada al-Sadr
demonstrated peacefully, but that is a tiny minority in the nation
of 24,683,313 (July 2003 est.,
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/iz.html), and
Bill Lear wrote:
Let me get this right: since only 1,000 out of 24 million came out for
a very vocal demonstration, that shows how cowed they are; therefore,
10,000 in the U.S., keeping proportions constant, shows the same
thing?
I don't think the issue is whether you can protest in the streets in
On Monday, March 29, 2004 at 13:16:10 (-0500) Yoshie Furuhashi writes:
Yes, more than 1,000 supporters of cleric Muqtada al-Sadr
demonstrated peacefully, but that is a tiny minority in the nation
of 24,683,313 (July 2003 est.,
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/iz.html), and
even
Bill Lear wrote:
On Monday, March 29, 2004 at 13:16:10 (-0500) Yoshie Furuhashi writes:
...
Yes, more than 1,000 supporters of cleric Muqtada al-Sadr
demonstrated peacefully, but that is a tiny minority in the nation
of 24,683,313 (July 2003 est.,
In response to Yoshie, Bill Lear wrote:
Let me get this right: since only 1,000 out of 24 million came out for
a very vocal demonstration, that shows how cowed they are; therefore,
10,000 in the U.S., keeping proportions constant, shows the same
thing?
Saith Doug ironically,
Bill, you're
At the risk of overposting:
Those who express ambivalence or reluctant support for the US occupation of Iraq are
practicing a form of less-evilism. And like all forms of lesser evilism, this one
is based
on self-delusion.
To be precise-- the delusion is that somehow someway the actions of the
Devine, James wrote:
As for the fear of what might happen if US forces pulled out, I think
there's a very good reason to trust the poll results. People are almost
always afraid of what will happen if the state (in this case, the US
armed forces) goes away.
This is not just about whether to trust
Jim, you are an excellent psychologist. I have been busy all day and have not been
able to wade through the entire thread, but I think that everything has already been
said. I suspect that we have pushed Chechnyia as far as we usefully can.
Devine, James wrote:
(I can understand it if
The opinion polls in Chechnya show (rebel leader) Aslan Maskhadov and (pro-Moscow
Chechen president) Aslan Kadyrov as being viewed with about equally phenomenal levels
of dislike. Maskhadov has an about 1% approval rating. It's rough being a warlord. :)
As I recall the polls showed more
Chris Doss wrote:
The opinion polls in Chechnya show (rebel leader) Aslan Maskhadov and
(pro-Moscow Chechen president) Aslan Kadyrov as being viewed with about
equally phenomenal levels of dislike. Maskhadov has an about 1% approval
rating. It's rough being a warlord. :)
Is this an endorsement of
Incidentally there is an interview with Kadyrov right here (edited by moi):
http://www.untimely-thoughts.com/index.html?cat=Aug%202,%202003type=3art=138. As far
as I know it is the only time he has ever been interviewed by a Westerner. It is
pre-2003 election.
You mean on the part of the Chechen population? Hard to say. My impression is that the
majority of the population is very tired of being caught in a cross-fire bewteen
trigger-happy, panicky Russian conscripts and jihadi nutballs and will accept anything
that will get them out of the situation.
Chris Doss wrote:
You mean on the part of the Chechen population? Hard to say. My
impression is that the majority of the population is very tired of being
caught in a cross-fire bewteen trigger-happy, panicky Russian conscripts
and jihadi nutballs and will accept anything that will get them out of
Since you clearly don't want to read the actual
poll, let me supply some highlights for you. These
results don't sound like they're coming from people
too terrified to speak their minds.
Doug
Here is one input from one of those from that part of
the world, who is not terrified to speak his
]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: Milan Rai on UN occupation of Iraq
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
It's absurd to think that the occupied can freely say what they
believe if they suspect that they have a good chance of talking to an
informer.
Then why did nearly
On Znet you can find an article by Milan Rai (author of a worthwhile
study of Noam Chomsky) that argues that the antiwar movement should not
call for immediate withdrawal. Why? Because, according to recent polls,
the Iraqis--no matter how much they are fed up with the occupation--are
afraid of the
Lou wrote;
Until there is a level playing field in Iraq, it seems rather
pointless to pay attention to Western pollsters.
It's mind-boggling for leftists such as Milan Rai to suggest that
Western pollsters, whose governments are belligerent occupiers in
Iraq, could get honest answers from the
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
It's mind-boggling for leftists such as Milan Rai to suggest that
Western pollsters, whose governments are belligerent occupiers in
Iraq, could get honest answers from the Iraqis whom they survey in
the occupied territory. How would the Iraqis know if the pollsters
Actually, there is historical evidence that during the Ottoman period a
primitive technique of poll taking was developed and used in certain
Sancaks, including in the region what we nowaday call Iraq.
Doug Henwood wrote:
He attributed their enthusiasm to the fact that no one had
asked their
At 2:27 PM -0500 3/26/04, Doug Henwood wrote:
It's mind-boggling for leftists such as Milan Rai to suggest that
Western pollsters, whose governments are belligerent occupiers in
Iraq, could get honest answers from the Iraqis whom they survey in
the occupied territory. How would the Iraqis know if
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Are the current occupiers in Iraq the first belligerent occupier in
history to poll the occupied in the hope of having the world accept
the polling results as a justification for the occupation?
Did you actually read the results of the Gallup Poll? The opinions
were very
Some folks sititng in university offices in the United States often will
attribute to those in other parts of the world who aren't saying what they
want them to say (or can't really hear what they are syaing) the quality of
being a tool.
It is pretty clear from Iraqi sources apart from this poll
Joel wrote:
Some folks sititng in university offices in the United States often will
attribute to those in other parts of the world who aren't saying what they
want them to say (or can't really hear what they are syaing) the quality of
being a tool.
I am at a university, but I occupy a cubicle
The occupation is a situation with no good options at all. For the US to stay, for
the US to pack up and leave immediately, or for the United Nations to come in all
have negative consequences. In addition, a discussion like this necessarily involves
several different measures that various
Some folks sititng in university offices in the United States often will
attribute to those in other parts of the world who aren't saying what they
want them to say (or can't really hear what they are syaing) the quality of
being a tool.
On the other hand, people do often reply to polls by
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Are the current occupiers in Iraq the first belligerent occupier in
history to poll the occupied in the hope of having the world accept
the polling results as a justification for the occupation?
Did you actually read the results of the Gallup Poll? The opinions
were very
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
It's absurd to think that the occupied can freely say what they
believe if they suspect that they have a good chance of talking to an
informer.
Then why did nearly 20% say that it was ok to attack U.S. troops? Why
did something like 50% say they had unfavorable opinions of
At 4:07 PM -0800 3/26/04, Devine, James wrote:
people do often reply to polls by saying what they feel they ought to say.
They often do even under normal circumstances in the United States
(e.g., Americans overstate their church attendance).
Doug and Joel ought to remember that Iraq is *under
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
It's absurd to think that the occupied can freely say what they
believe if they suspect that they have a good chance of talking to
an informer.
Then why did nearly 20% say that it was ok to attack U.S. troops?
Why did something like 50% say they had unfavorable opinions of
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Doug and Joel ought to remember that Iraq is *under foreign military
occupation conducting counterinsurgency warfare* with censorship,
checkpoints, house raids, arbitrary arrest and detention, no due
process, etc. -- i.e. Iraqis do not have freedom of speech.
Since you
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Doug and Joel ought to remember that Iraq is *under foreign military
occupation conducting counterinsurgency warfare* with censorship,
checkpoints, house raids, arbitrary arrest and detention, no due
process, etc. -- i.e. Iraqis do not have freedom of speech.
And I know
At 9:20 PM -0500 3/26/04, Doug Henwood wrote:
Doug and Joel ought to remember that Iraq is *under foreign
military occupation conducting counterinsurgency warfare* with
censorship, checkpoints, house raids, arbitrary arrest and
detention, no due process, etc. -- i.e. Iraqis do not have freedom
of
I think that this thread regarding polls is becoming repetitive.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
At 4:07 PM -0800 3/26/04, Devine, James wrote:
people do often reply to polls by saying what they feel they ought to say.
They often do even under normal circumstances in the United States
(e.g., Americans overstate their church attendance).
Doug and Joel ought to
Devine, James wrote:
Quoting someone:
Some folks sititng in university offices in the United States often will
And there are some folks who never choose to argue with specific
arguments from specific opponents. They prefer to set up ghostly (and
mostly nonexistent) opponents with silly
Doug and Joel ought to remember that Iraq is *under foreign military
occupation conducting counterinsurgency warfare* with censorship,
checkpoints, house raids, arbitrary arrest and detention, no due
process, etc. -- i.e. Iraqis do not have freedom of speech.
I'm not sure why I'm being
At 9:17 PM -0600 3/26/04, Carrol Cox wrote:
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
At 4:07 PM -0800 3/26/04, Devine, James wrote:
people do often reply to polls by saying what they feel they ought to say.
They often do even under normal circumstances in the United
States (e.g., Americans overstate their church
Yoshie writes: ?The idea of the occupier polling the occupied with a view to using
the results for propaganda purposes is patently absurd, but you
obviously don't think it is -- very perplexing.
it reminds me of an old cartoon in the NEW YORKER, back in the 1960s: two South
Vietnamese soldiers
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